| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| maransreth |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 00:29:56
I have been working on compiling an easy to reference list of first references to various races and monsters in the Grand History of the Realms.
One I found interesting was on page 8 - c.-30400 DR - The Wasting Plague. The gnolls of Urgnarash ...
This got me wondering - are gnolls native or were gnolls created, and if so, by which creator race?
Personally, I am thinking created, but not sure by which race. I doubt the Sarrukh as reference is made in Serpent Kingdoms that the Sarrukh despise the smell of humans - cant imagine anything smeller than a gnoll 
Thoughts?
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| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 21 Apr 2020 : 05:26:52
I've never heard of alpha deity in any of the deity books either. Do you have a source for it? |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 21 Apr 2020 : 04:46:15
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I have to admit that I've never heard of the term alpha deity before.
That's a shame. Hit me up and I'll tell you more about it. Pretty common actually. The term that is. Hmmm, whatever. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 21 Apr 2020 : 02:03:45
I have to admit that I've never heard of the term alpha deity before. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 21 Apr 2020 : 00:45:05
Orcus and Demogorgon first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976). Yeenoghu first appeared in AD&D Monster Manual (1977). In the Monster Manual, Orcus was known as Prince of Undead. Yeenoghu was known as Prince of Gnolls. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 23:46:30
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Yeenoghu is not a greater deity and has never been a greater deity. I'm looking at the 1e mm right now, and he's still the Prince of Gnolls, making his debut alongside Demogorgon, Orcus and Juiblex.
His authority over gnolls comes from subjugation over Doresain, but now that the King of Ghouls has tasted divinity, he's biding his time until he can wrest himself from beneath the Fluffy One's paw.
WOW.. I never said GREATER deity. I said Alpha deity. Huge difference if you know how to play the game, which I would greatly assume you do. I'm tired of sparring with you over dumb crap. I'm right! You're right! Do you have to assault every thing I post?
My history of D&D is greater than yours for the simple fact that I'm older than you and have been playing the game much, much longer than you. You are indeed a scholar and I cannot deny you have called me out when it was needed. But on this I am correct. Yeenoghu held the title of "God of the Undead" before the other BIG 3. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 23:44:24
Yeenoghu made his first chronological appearance in 1977's 1e Monster Manual, where he is just the Prince of Gnolls. He made his appearance alongside the Type line of demons and the other three princes.
Where's the source for Yeenoghu being the original Prince of Undeath? Even back in 1977 that was Orcus. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 23:38:20
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Yeenoghu is not a greater deity and has never been a greater deity. I'm looking at the 1e mm right now, and he's still the Prince of Gnolls, making his debut alongside Demogorgon, Orcus and Juiblex.
His authority over gnolls comes from subjugation over Doresain, but now that the King of Ghouls has tasted divinity, he's biding his time until he can wrest himself from beneath the Fluffy One's paw.
Like all deities... they bide their time. Do you think the "Real" Mask won't come knocking on Drasik Riven's door sometime soon?
Just saying... after reading an article some years ago about Yeenoghu... Before Orcus or Jubilex or Demogorgon.... Yeenoghu was well fleshed out and one of the FIRST demi-human deities to take the undead as a portfolio back in 1977, before Orcus stole the title. Gary Gygax himself was a staunch supporter of Yeenoghu as a prolific alpha evil in the cosmology of the Planes of Existance. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 23:19:38
Yeenoghu is not a greater deity and has never been a greater deity. I'm looking at the 1e mm right now, and he's still the Prince of Gnolls, making his debut alongside Demogorgon, Orcus and Juiblex.
His authority over gnolls comes from subjugation over Doresain, but now that the King of Ghouls has tasted divinity, he's biding his time until he can wrest himself from beneath the Fluffy One's paw. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 22:54:27
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Yeenoghu indeed! Alpha God of Gnolls, Lord of the undead and pretty badass amongst greater deities.
I would agree that Yeenoghu is far all intents and purposes Alpha God of Gnolls. Gorrelik's time has passed.
Now the corrections: Orcus is Lord of the Undead. It so happened Yeenoghu subjugated Doresain, Lord of Ghouls. Not sure if Orcus reasserted dominion over Doresain. Not that Yeenoghu could stop Orcus if push comes to shove.
Now that The Last Word has been nullified, neither Orcus, Yeenoghu nor Doresain would be even remotely considered a badass amongst greater deities. Furthermore, intermediate deities such as Erevan Ilesere (not an exarch in my campaigns, never was and never will be) would steamroller a demon prince, all else being equal.
In original Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.... circa 1977 about... Gary Gygax created this beastie with help from prominent friends and unleashed him unto the world. Yeenoghu came before Orcus in game terms. The timeline is now severely askew. Go on Youtube and look at the origins of Yeenoghu and see what you find. I'm telling you as a 46 year old DM that Yeenoghu came before Orcus, and was a god of powerful undead.
That being said... those three beasties need to settle their qualms before some Greater God/Goddess claims the title.
Erevan Ilesere was NEVER an Exarch in our Campaign either. 4ED did a massive disservice to many demi-human deities. Erevan Ilesere has, and will always remain a Intermediate power of the Seldarine.
Back on subject... I think most of the undead in Yeenoghu's portfolio are Gnolls to begin with.
Me personally... I'd rather deal with a human zombie fighter, than a gnoll zombie fighter. lol. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 22:14:14
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Yeenoghu indeed! Alpha God of Gnolls, Lord of the undead and pretty badass amongst greater deities.
I would agree that Yeenoghu is far all intents and purposes Alpha God of Gnolls. Gorrelik's time has passed.
Now the corrections: Orcus is Lord of the Undead. It so happened Yeenoghu subjugated Doresain, Lord of Ghouls. Not sure if Orcus reasserted dominion over Doresain. Not that Yeenoghu could stop Orcus if push comes to shove.
Now that The Last Word has been nullified, neither Orcus, Yeenoghu nor Doresain would be even remotely considered a badass amongst greater deities. Furthermore, intermediate deities such as Erevan Ilesere (not an exarch in my campaigns, never was and never will be) would steamroller a demon prince, all else being equal. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 21:56:48
Yeenoghu indeed! Alpha God of Gnolls, Lord of the undead and pretty badass amongst greater deities. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 12:01:38
To be fair, Yeenoghu creating the gnolls is a purely modern invention. In previous editions, they were around waaaay before Captain Fuzzybritches rose to power.
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| PattPlays |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 02:54:13
TheMightyGluestick did a great recap on gnolls and their almost intentionally vague and contradictory background in their video on Yeenoghu, including these gods that are so complex in the issue.
I forget, does Volo's Guide stamp down a confirmed lineage and status of their dieties in 5e?
@Patt |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 19 Apr 2020 : 23:54:49
Gorellik is indeed losing the race to Yeenoghu; it's implied that Prince Fuzzy britches came to the gnolls because he was impressed by how they were so like him.
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| maransreth |
Posted - 19 Apr 2020 : 12:57:06
Thanks, everyone. It is easy to get into the thought pattern that a hybrid creature was created by a creator race. :)
Re the rest of the discussion, Yeenoghu could be mentioned as it was easier, or the fact that the gnolls wanted access to a demon lord to get the pestilence spirits from the Abyssal plane to blight the crops. Could be a nice segue to have the gnolls worship Yeenoghu instead of an in decline deity. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 19 Apr 2020 : 08:54:57
The best thing about beholders is that while they're a race of Lawful Evil masterminds, their chief god is a hyper-fertile Chaotic Evil ball of gibbering insanity, and not even the beholders have an answer for why she created them.
Also, there's that thing about Ilsensine apparently being quite chill with Gzemnid being his tenant. |
| Sylmaer |
Posted - 19 Apr 2020 : 06:42:25
Huh, my friends and I rather enjoyed the "Beholders dream other Beholders into existence" thing... makes them spooky. Granted, we're 5e babies so don't know any better I guess lol
But I definitely won't be bringing it to my 1e/2e stuff... |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 19 Apr 2020 : 00:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If a hyena consumes the flesh of a creature killed by a gnoll (specially consecrated devotee of Yeenoghu?) or by Yeenoghu himself, that hyena transforms into a gnoll.
I know that this is now an official thing -- but in my opinion, it is one of the most ridiculous things WotC has ever come up with. The only thing more ridiculous is the thing about beholders dreaming other beholders into existence.
I cannot honestly say I am thrilled with that bit of gnoll procreation. This is the first I heard about beholders dreaming other beholders into existence. [sarcasm]I will incorporate this lore into my campaigns forthwith![/sarcasm] |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 19:45:33
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Isn’t there something about flinds or gnolls being formed from the droplets of Yennoghus blood?
That all started with 4e, which made Yeenoghu their true creator rather than an ursurper |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 18:27:24
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
One possibility I developed for him was that he was the Hyaenodon Animal Lord who gnolls started worshipping, uplifting him to truly divine status.
I love this. Imho Animal Lords are one of the most underutilized concepts in D&D.
Isn’t there something about flinds or gnolls being formed from the droplets of Yennoghus blood? |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 17:07:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If a hyena consumes the flesh of a creature killed by a gnoll (specially consecrated devotee of Yeenoghu?) or by Yeenoghu himself, that hyena transforms into a gnoll.
I know that this is now an official thing -- but in my opinion, it is one of the most ridiculous things WotC has ever come up with. The only thing more ridiculous is the thing about beholders dreaming other beholders into existence.
That made my brain hurt... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 16:39:01
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If a hyena consumes the flesh of a creature killed by a gnoll (specially consecrated devotee of Yeenoghu?) or by Yeenoghu himself, that hyena transforms into a gnoll.
I know that this is now an official thing -- but in my opinion, it is one of the most ridiculous things WotC has ever come up with. The only thing more ridiculous is the thing about beholders dreaming other beholders into existence. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 15:10:59
yeah, one easy trap to fall into is that the creator races were the only things around and that they made everything. I envision that to NOT be the case. Furthermore, while they may have created a lot of creatures, I bet a lot of them were sterile and unable to procreate OR if they could procreate it wasn't easy and just over time the things they created went extinct due to the predations of others. I'd focus on the creator races creating things LIKE themselves (i.e. sarrukh making reptiles, sauroids, etc.. Aearee making winged things or things from birds...), and in fact I'd bet a lot of dinosaur species come from the creator races as well. I'd think it more of bestial things and less of intelligent creatures. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 14:00:02
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Gnolls already have a racial god. Yeenoghu is the usurper here.
This is true, but also important to note that according to Monster Mythology, Gnolls don't have a creation myth revolving around Gorellik, which I took to mean he was a patron rather than a creator. One possibility I developed for him was that he was the Hyaenodon Animal Lord who gnolls started worshipping, uplifting him to truly divine status.
Given all that, gnolls are probably a natural creature, and given their connections to giants, ogres, and goblinoids, they probably arrived on Toril as slaves/servants/allies of one of those (I'd go with ogres, maybe starting in Thar with the likely Spelljamming ogres that lived there).
Jeff
Starting with 4e and continued with 5e, gnolls are not entirely natural creature. There is nothing to say that gnolls do not reproduce as other humanoids do, but it is not the only way. If a hyena consumes the flesh of a creature killed by a gnoll (specially consecrated devotee of Yeenoghu?) or by Yeenoghu himself, that hyena transforms into a gnoll. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 02:03:33
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Gnolls already have a racial god. Yeenoghu is the usurper here.
This is true, but also important to note that according to Monster Mythology, Gnolls don't have a creation myth revolving around Gorellik, which I took to mean he was a patron rather than a creator. One possibility I developed for him was that he was the Hyaenodon Animal Lord who gnolls started worshipping, uplifting him to truly divine status.
Given all that, gnolls are probably a natural creature, and given their connections to giants, ogres, and goblinoids, they probably arrived on Toril as slaves/servants/allies of one of those (I'd go with ogres, maybe starting in Thar with the likely Spelljamming ogres that lived there).
Jeff |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 01:46:34
Gnolls are found on most D&D worlds. And on some D&D planes. So it seems unlikely the Realms is their origin, it seems more likely they somehow arrived from elsewhere. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 01:37:58
Gnolls already have a racial god. Yeenoghu is the usurper here. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 18 Apr 2020 : 00:57:42
I know it's at least an in-setting theory that Yeenoghu created them? |
