| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keftiu |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 07:37:20
Another thread (about Manshoon) sent me down something of a rabbit hole, and it's made me realize that we have three mutually-exclusive leaders of the Zhentarim presented across a relatively short span on canon.
The 4e corebook establishes that there are three known clones of Manshoon that survived the Mansoon Wars: one who had assumed command of the Zhentarim at [location], one who had fled into Undermountain and been killed by the Spellplague, and one who was a vampire, living in Westgate under the name Orbakh. It describes Zhentarim Manshoon as dying in the destruction at the hands of Zhentil Keep at the hands of the Netherese (the wiki tells me this was in 1383 DR).
It then establishes that Orbakh/Vampire Manshoon now leads the rebuilt Zhentarim as of 1479 DR, ruling from the castle Stormwatch a ways away from Westgate. It also notes that after the destruction of Zhentil Keep, the fortress of Darkhold, because a major Zhentarim stronghold with Zhentil Keep's destruction, leading to a surge in Cyricists among the ranks.
Then in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (5e, so presumably 1489 DR, possibly a few years later), it states that our old friend The Pereghost is the leader of all the Zhentarim, ruling from Darkhold. (It also plays with the possibility that there might be several Pereghosts, and the current is the latest in a line of succession that have anonymity behind the signature armor). What happened to Vampire Manshoon/Orbakh, who (near as I know) was never the subject of any fiction or game material that would explain his absence?
Where things get really wild is Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (a quick search says it's set in 1492 DR), which tells us that the Undermountain Manshoon (who apparently had an arm amputated and prevented from being healed by Halaster for reasons unknown) is in charge of the Zhentarim from Kolat Towers, a fortified residence in Waterdeep. It also repeats that there are three known surviving Manshoon clones (and does not specify the other two, but leads to the curious suggestion that Zhentil Keep Manshoon might've survived).
Now, my crystal ball shows me a future where a certain crowd here on these forums says "well, that's bad writing!" but I think that's not a productive conversation to have. What I instead want to ask is this; how do you rectify these in an interesting and satisfying way?
If I had to take an early shot at it, I would say that The Pereghost is running the day-to-day from Darkhold, and that there's a pretty good chance they did so for most of the time from Zhentil Keep's destruction onward, freeing One-Armed/Undermountain Manshoon to pursue more secretive or personal projects, like his current scheme to take control of Waterdeep. Orbakh/Vampire Manshoon I'm less sure about, but the most entertaining angle I can consider is that these two survivors of the Manshoon Wars have decided continuing the bloodshed matters less than building up the Zhentarim's ranks and coffers.
There's enough space between Darkhold, Waterdeep, and Westgate for the three of them to be managing different regions of Zhentarim influence, especially given how far afield we know the 5e-era Zhents are going (given that they're options for plotlines set everywhere from the North to Baldur's Gate to Chult). Odds are also pretty good they'd be bracing for an inevitable betrayal from the others, if not actively planning such a betrayal themselves. Zhentil Keep Manshoon is the real wildcard in this bunch, if he's one of the three surviving clones Dragon Heist establishes. |
| 6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 23:54:54
The references to "family" and "good friends" could be formal euphemisms which avoid naming names and such (a precautionary habit vs eavesdroppers, tape recorders, and crystal balls). Sort of like the Sicilian mafia (or, rather, like our Hollywood-popularized image of them).
Charm magics are a good theory. No doubt the Zhents do exploit them a lot, especially when interacting with pawns and dupes and enemies. But I suspect that most of the key players (certainly Manshoon and his pet beholder) are thoroughly unaffected by simple enchantments, so charms wouldn't compel them to speak in these terms.
Although vampires are famous charmers. Beholders are potent charmers. And all those lying Cyricists and thieves and assassins and criminals and spies and swindlers must have glib charms of their own. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 22:55:48
AFAIK, the vampire Manshoon was killed in a "prologue to 5e" novel. IIRC, Elminster Enraged. But, I'm not so sure... |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 21:31:53
My interpretation of Darkhold, with the references to "family" and the leaders as "my good friend" makes me think of charm magic. Manxam was an old beholder and past ruler of Teshwave and my money would be on him being the real ruler in Darkhold. If the Pereghost isn't a series of individuals, I'd go with him being a death knight given his fallen paladin history. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 17:52:43
I would go with the multiple segments of the Zhentarim, myself, though I do have issue with Vampshoon running the Zhents. (I also have an issue with Zhentil Keep getting destroyed and not rebuilt, but that's another story). |
| keftiu |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 08:17:52
I do wonder what kind of shape Zhentil Keep Manshoon is in, assuming he isn't dead. He's probably not too sad to see returned Netheril ruined...
EDIT: Oh my god, I think I just figured it out: Zhentil Keep Manshoon /is/ the current Pereghost, well-hidden under that trademark armor from any still-extant Shadovar agents who would be very unhappy to know he survived.
He runs things out of Darkhold, Orbakh runs things out of Westgate, and One-Armed Manshoon has a handle on Waterdeep. You can sketch out whatever you need for your campaign, but it seems pretty likely that Pereghost handles the Moonsea Zhentarim, Orbakh lords over the Heartlands, and One-Arm is lucky enough to field the bulk of the Sword Coast. There's even the chance that Orbakh never revealed himself to be Manshoon, and thus there's no issue of multiple Manshoons to the common Zhent merc, thief, and thug, though the higher-ups likely know. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 08:10:35
I don't think the Zhentarim have a clearly-defined chain of command. There's many layers of plots and counterplots and conspiracies. You follow orders from your direct overseer but if you're savvy you think carefully about orders you receive from unseen higher-ups ... are they legit? can they somehow be exploited, make you wealthy, advance your standing? will you get punished for working against them? will they get you killed, and by whom?
So if you're near Darkhold and a Manshoon near Darkhold gives you orders you follow them. If you see Manshoon again near Westgate and he gives you completely different orders then you follow his new orders, you very pointedly don't ask him why he looks different or is missing an arm.
The Manshoons are likely well aware of their multiplicity in the ranks. They might sometimes oppose each other, they might sometimes cooperate towards mutual gain, they might have a tafit agreement to each govern some specific region of operations. After all, what better way to control everything in the land than to focus on manageable areas and trust others (copies of yourself) to focus on other areas?
No doubt each Manshoon thinks himself the one true genuine bona-fide real original Manshoon, whilst the others are the copies/imposters. But each is careful, waiting for the others to make mistakes, waiting for some meddling Chosens or dying Mystras to shake things up so they can seize back what is rightfully theirs. Kinda hard to fight your clones, you all know the same spells and item command words and dirty tricks and secrets, so the only edges any can have is any external pawns and allies and events they can control, thus an interest in being intimately involved with the Zhentarim. |
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