| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 04:02:19
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 13:26:29
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There's a disparity between the Sacred Fist spells per day text and table, which is where the confusion starts.
Fundentally it's still a spontaneous MAD divine caster against a prepared arcane caster.
Ah, the table lists it at 7/10 casting and the test says it's full. I've always been told text overrules table, so it is indeed caster level 19th. Nice catch |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 06:40:48
There's a disparity between the Sacred Fist spells per day text and table, which is where the confusion starts.
Fundentally it's still a spontaneous MAD divine caster against a prepared arcane caster. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 06:08:47
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
A Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10... So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. Not to mention my class abilities, personal feats and skills... Skill-Feats and Skill-Tricks on top of all that jazz to boot. Maybe I have a Template as well? idk.
Well....um there are some issues here. 1st, you'd be a 17th level caster and wouldn't access 9th level spells.
2nd, Favored Souls are notorious for their bad casting as their spells per day require Charisma investment but the DCs are based off of Wisdom (super dumb IMO). So they're MAD on TOP of being MAD with the focus on Monk (one of the worst 3.5 base classes) who needs good Dex, Wisdom, and some Constitution. Charisma is considered a dumb stat for them, and now you're basing your spells off it?
3rd, while you have one or two MAIN features like Inner Armor for that Spell Resistance and your AC will be pretty darn impressive....a 20th level wizard doesn't bother with HP damage to thwart enemies.
A wizard that goes first for Initiative, and to be honest there's no reason to think they won't with Improved Initiative, Knauper's Skittish Nerves, and a decent Dex a score, won't simply Time Stop, Forcecage (windowless cell) you, then teleport without error the cell to the bottom of the Sea of Fallen Stars.
The thing is with these exercises, its all about who can pull out the biggest guns the fastest. I'm inclined to believe the Wizard has more tools to achieve that because their needs in other areas is less than a Divine monk with decent skills. Ultimately you have to draw up two stat blocks and then do a round-by-round of turns to see who "wins".
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Some people are afraid of LA's because they level up slower than normal, but I say it's worth it if you know how to play D&D and play smart. Your CR is NOT who you are, but what can be expected of you in an encounter.
LA as in Level Adjustment? I think they can be OK if you're allowed to buy them off as you continue to advance, and I'd generally never go higher than a LA +2 because it's usually not worth the trade off for class levels or a slower advancement.
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I see nothing wrong with the build above. Actually... ALL my Sacred Fist options in the poll have great benefits for any PC who takes that multi-class combo.
Do they all have their weaknesses?... yes, surely. But the benefits of any class combo given should be sufficient enough to play the PC and escape for at least 1 city block before your party arrives and takes you in.
Most 20th level characters have a chance of that happening, I'd say even basic Fighters stand a decent chance.
In actual gameplay it's quite impressive. And Magical Trickster PrC gives you 2 caster levels making you a 19'th level divine caster, not 17th. Anywho... the dice rules the game. Then it's game skills, then it's game wisdom. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 03:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
A Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10... So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. Not to mention my class abilities, personal feats and skills... Skill-Feats and Skill-Tricks on top of all that jazz to boot. Maybe I have a Template as well? idk.
Well....um there are some issues here. 1st, you'd be a 17th level caster and wouldn't access 9th level spells.
2nd, Favored Souls are notorious for their bad casting as their spells per day require Charisma investment but the DCs are based off of Wisdom (super dumb IMO). So they're MAD on TOP of being MAD with the focus on Monk (one of the worst 3.5 base classes) who needs good Dex, Wisdom, and some Constitution. Charisma is considered a dumb stat for them, and now you're basing your spells off it?
3rd, while you have one or two MAIN features like Inner Armor for that Spell Resistance and your AC will be pretty darn impressive....a 20th level wizard doesn't bother with HP damage to thwart enemies.
A wizard that goes first for Initiative, and to be honest there's no reason to think they won't with Improved Initiative, Knauper's Skittish Nerves, and a decent Dex a score, won't simply Time Stop, Forcecage (windowless cell) you, then teleport without error the cell to the bottom of the Sea of Fallen Stars.
The thing is with these exercises, its all about who can pull out the biggest guns the fastest. I'm inclined to believe the Wizard has more tools to achieve that because their needs in other areas is less than a Divine monk with decent skills. Ultimately you have to draw up two stat blocks and then do a round-by-round of turns to see who "wins".
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Some people are afraid of LA's because they level up slower than normal, but I say it's worth it if you know how to play D&D and play smart. Your CR is NOT who you are, but what can be expected of you in an encounter.
LA as in Level Adjustment? I think they can be OK if you're allowed to buy them off as you continue to advance, and I'd generally never go higher than a LA +2 because it's usually not worth the trade off for class levels or a slower advancement.
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I see nothing wrong with the build above. Actually... ALL my Sacred Fist options in the poll have great benefits for any PC who takes that multi-class combo.
Do they all have their weaknesses?... yes, surely. But the benefits of any class combo given should be sufficient enough to play the PC and escape for at least 1 city block before your party arrives and takes you in.
Most 20th level characters have a chance of that happening, I'd say even basic Fighters stand a decent chance. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 11 Apr 2020 : 22:39:24
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Or better yet... How about your 20th level wizard vs. options above in the poll. I'll take Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10. So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. lol.
But your wizard would destroy me I'm sure. lol.
I must quote myself in this. My example above is actually fairly mundane compared to what you could have if you included all the accoutrements available to said build, and throw in the Complete Scoundrel system rules.
A 20th level fighter vs. a 20th level fighter is up to the dice and how you play. But a 20th level fighter vs a 20th level fighter with skill-tricks and skill-feats will always change the outcome of battle in favor of the fighter with the said skill-tricks and skill-feats. There is no getting around this, as it's a D20 rule system.
A Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10... So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. Not to mention my class abilities, personal feats and skills... Skill-Feats and Skill-Tricks on top of all that jazz to boot. Maybe I have a Template as well? idk.
Some people are afraid of LA's because they level up slower than normal, but I say it's worth it if you know how to play D&D and play smart. Your CR is NOT who you are, but what can be expected of you in an encounter.
I see nothing wrong with the build above. Actually... ALL my Sacred Fist options in the poll have great benefits for any PC who takes that multi-class combo.
Do they all have their weaknesses?... yes, surely. But the benefits of any class combo given should be sufficient enough to play the PC and escape for at least 1 city block before your party arrives and takes you in. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 02 Apr 2020 : 02:18:11
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Rogues/arcane casters multiclasses can and do work, but a straight rogue x/sorc x isn't one of those ways.
Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/War Weaver 5 might work. I mean, a LOT of the Rogue-ish stuff is snuffed out with spells BUT there's a LOT going for this build. Why I've chosen these Prestige Classes is that 1) they're super easy to get into, requiring simple ranks in skills both the Rogue and Wizard easily get AND because of their rather amazing abilities. The Spellwarp Sniper adds the Rogue's sneak attack (at +2d6) to his sudden Raystrike spells (an additional +2d6). But the ability to Spellwarp area spells of up to 5th level is pretty awesome. In the end, it adds some power to you're touch spells, adds some versatility to how you deal with area spells and it's a 2/3 BAB class with full-caster progression.
The second is War Weaver and, well there's a whole darn Handbook about its effectiveness. You create a weave (and in the Forgotten Realms, I always pictured this class as someone bending/using Mystra's Weave in this effect) to tether a bunch of your allies to spells you throw into it. Then all at once you can disperse ALL of the spells from Polymorph to Greater Invisibility to even Healing spells if you've taken the Arcane Disciple feat and worship a god with the Healing domain. The power and versatility of this is just crazy.
In the end, this combination has FAR more to do with spell manipulation and casting than it ever does with jumping into melee and getting stabby. Probably because it's WAAY easier to do more damage from 300-ft. away while invisible and has a greater chance of success when you're hitting their touch AC. Would you rather have a max of 5th level spell but have +5d6 Sneak Attack OR would you rather have a spellwarped Heightened Fireball that you can throw from hundreds of feet away that deals 14d6 with a ranged touch?
Another option, although one significantly less powerful, is to use Rogue/Warmage/Spellwarp Sniper/War Weaver. The problem is that while you're adding slightly more damage your versatility goes down significantly.
I love it |
| Diffan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 22:02:22
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Rogues/arcane casters multiclasses can and do work, but a straight rogue x/sorc x isn't one of those ways.
Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/War Weaver 5 might work. I mean, a LOT of the Rogue-ish stuff is snuffed out with spells BUT there's a LOT going for this build. Why I've chosen these Prestige Classes is that 1) they're super easy to get into, requiring simple ranks in skills both the Rogue and Wizard easily get AND because of their rather amazing abilities. The Spellwarp Sniper adds the Rogue's sneak attack (at +2d6) to his sudden Raystrike spells (an additional +2d6). But the ability to Spellwarp area spells of up to 5th level is pretty awesome. In the end, it adds some power to you're touch spells, adds some versatility to how you deal with area spells and it's a 2/3 BAB class with full-caster progression.
The second is War Weaver and, well there's a whole darn Handbook about its effectiveness. You create a weave (and in the Forgotten Realms, I always pictured this class as someone bending/using Mystra's Weave in this effect) to tether a bunch of your allies to spells you throw into it. Then all at once you can disperse ALL of the spells from Polymorph to Greater Invisibility to even Healing spells if you've taken the Arcane Disciple feat and worship a god with the Healing domain. The power and versatility of this is just crazy.
In the end, this combination has FAR more to do with spell manipulation and casting than it ever does with jumping into melee and getting stabby. Probably because it's WAAY easier to do more damage from 300-ft. away while invisible and has a greater chance of success when you're hitting their touch AC. Would you rather have a max of 5th level spell but have +5d6 Sneak Attack OR would you rather have a spellwarped Heightened Fireball that you can throw from hundreds of feet away that deals 14d6 with a ranged touch?
Another option, although one significantly less powerful, is to use Rogue/Warmage/Spellwarp Sniper/War Weaver. The problem is that while you're adding slightly more damage your versatility goes down significantly. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 16:26:55
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Wow, this thread has gone places ...
Anyway I should be "smart working" in this f***ing pandemic but I've given up today and I'm bored so I'll throw my hat in here.
I'm not voting in the poll because there is nothing appealing to me and the situation is a bit stretching my perception of what's feasible in the Realms that are presented to us in game supplements and novels.
That's what I think most people are trying to point out: while there are occasional rare times in which villains manage to capture high profile individuals it's basically never straight up level 20 or above people because the power and resources available to those people and to captors capable of capturing and keeping them enslaved throw a wrench into the economic and social meaning of the word "slavery".
To give an example: a scheming lich with its demon/devil allies and a bunch of high level goons (the "mini-bosses") might have a reason to kidnap the king/queen/prince/famous poet/heroin/High Priest/whatever of a nation for whatever reason.
But it's for a specific reason, they're not slavers as in "making a living in trafficking sentient livestock". They've got resources and motivations that make unbelievable the fact that they might pursue the path of slavery.
I see only one possibility to make the actual situation believable and that's for the PC(s) to be champion gladiators. This to me opens up the chances of having someone high level (don't know about level 20 ...) being enslaved to someone else but it means dropping the elf requirement and spellcasting classes from the possibilities for the very simple reason that Thayan notoriously don't trust elves as slaves and don't trust spellcasters as slaves (too many options for the slave to break free and the Thayan noble / Red Wizard has better things to do than keep a close eye on his/her slaves every waking hour).
Also Skullport is not really a place renowned for gladiatorial fights (and getting someone enslaved up in the Fields of Triumph is preposterous) so I would move the scenario to Calimshan.
In this different frame I would see a chance for high level roguish and fightery types (with all declinations of both in terms of base classes and PrCs) being enslaved and using the chance of the long trip and the negotiations between their Thayan "sponsor" and some Pasha from Manshaka to break free.
That was for the actual poll, now for what the thread devolved into I would advise everyone against trying to explain why their play style is better than others or why their interpretation of the rules is better than others because we all have different play styles and different house rules that work at our own tables with our friends but not with others or at organised play events (conventions, RPGA). And at the end of the day, we will probably keep playing with our own friends and so it's better to agree to disagree at some point.
Also, not that anyone should bother with me, but I intensely dislike discussions on min/max-ing and this is stronger than that because there are countless "ifs" and "buts" and they all come down to how the situation actually plays at the table.
Nobody that I know or have heard of plays D&D like some sort of Mortal Kombat pen & paper equivalent and that's why min/max-ing shows its limits.
Carry on
Brilliant. I agree. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 16:08:36
Wow, this thread has gone places ...
Anyway I should be "smart working" in this f***ing pandemic but I've given up today and I'm bored so I'll throw my hat in here.
I'm not voting in the poll because there is nothing appealing to me and the situation is a bit stretching my perception of what's feasible in the Realms that are presented to us in game supplements and novels.
That's what I think most people are trying to point out: while there are occasional rare times in which villains manage to capture high profile individuals it's basically never straight up level 20 or above people because the power and resources available to those people and to captors capable of capturing and keeping them enslaved throw a wrench into the economic and social meaning of the word "slavery".
To give an example: a scheming lich with its demon/devil allies and a bunch of high level goons (the "mini-bosses") might have a reason to kidnap the king/queen/prince/famous poet/heroin/High Priest/whatever of a nation for whatever reason.
But it's for a specific reason, they're not slavers as in "making a living in trafficking sentient livestock". They've got resources and motivations that make unbelievable the fact that they might pursue the path of slavery.
I see only one possibility to make the actual situation believable and that's for the PC(s) to be champion gladiators. This to me opens up the chances of having someone high level (don't know about level 20 ...) being enslaved to someone else but it means dropping the elf requirement and spellcasting classes from the possibilities for the very simple reason that Thayan notoriously don't trust elves as slaves and don't trust spellcasters as slaves (too many options for the slave to break free and the Thayan noble / Red Wizard has better things to do than keep a close eye on his/her slaves every waking hour).
Also Skullport is not really a place renowned for gladiatorial fights (and getting someone enslaved up in the Fields of Triumph is preposterous) so I would move the scenario to Calimshan.
In this different frame I would see a chance for high level roguish and fightery types (with all declinations of both in terms of base classes and PrCs) being enslaved and using the chance of the long trip and the negotiations between their Thayan "sponsor" and some Pasha from Manshaka to break free.
That was for the actual poll, now for what the thread devolved into I would advise everyone against trying to explain why their play style is better than others or why their interpretation of the rules is better than others because we all have different play styles and different house rules that work at our own tables with our friends but not with others or at organised play events (conventions, RPGA). And at the end of the day, we will probably keep playing with our own friends and so it's better to agree to disagree at some point.
Also, not that anyone should bother with me, but I intensely dislike discussions on min/max-ing and this is stronger than that because there are countless "ifs" and "buts" and they all come down to how the situation actually plays at the table.
Nobody that I know or have heard of plays D&D like some sort of Mortal Kombat pen & paper equivalent and that's why min/max-ing shows its limits.
Carry on |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 15:49:07
Or better yet... How about your 20th level wizard vs. options above in the poll. I'll take Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10. So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. lol.
But your wizard would destroy me I'm sure. lol. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 15:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I'm presenting a challenge in this thread. That's all. Quite simple. Didn't expect 4 pages of people telling me I'm wrong. lol.
Let's rephrase your statement: You posted a poll, and you've argued for 4 pages about why it's not as flawed as everyone else thinks, despite the fact that you are one of the only 4 votes on this poll.
Most people would take this as an indication that their premise needed to be reworked. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 15:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I... I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling. The wizard is, by far, the most powerful class in the game, only equalled by CoDzilla and the Arcanist. He has so many ways to murder a rogue 10 that it isn't funny.
A rogue 10/sor 10 will have terrible bab, poor spellcasting, and is likely having to deal with the wizard shrugging off his sneak attacks assuming the wizard isn't outright immune. Meanwhile, the wizard will auto win against your buffs.
How can you claim to eat and breathe the 3.5e system without knowing that casters are the most powerful thing in the game? It just doesn't add up, especially in epic where epic spellcasting is so easily broken.
Bwahahaha.... You slay me truly. Your 20th level wizard is certainly not the Alpha or Omega in the game. How can your 20th level wizard shrug off sneak attacks from a 10th level rogue when your Reflex score is ultimately weak? Not to mention a really poor Fortitude score as well. You seem to treat multi-class characters like they're worthless and sub-par. And yes I know what Min/Max means, thank you. I can assure you that my 10th level Rogue/ 10th level Sorcerer will be maxed to the teeth in any game I play, that will crush a solid 20th level wizard.
In the end my friend, it all comes down to how you play the character in question. What gear you have, and how you use your skills, feats, skill-tricks and skill-feats, etc...
I'd really like to know what Reflex saves have to do with sneak attacks (spoiler: nothing. Sneak attacks only get set up by catching the wizard flat-footed or flanking him ). I'd also like to know what Fort saves have to do with anything, especially since your multiclass also has a weak Fort save and middling Reflex and Will saves.
It gets even worse when you realize that the rogue has no way of dealing with the wizard's counters, such as project image, flight, mirror image and whatnot. Bob the wizard has counters for everything you have.
And...and no, you don't know what min-max means. A Rogue 10/sorc 10 isn't min-maxed. You have terrible bab, terrible sneak attack and most cripplingly, terrible caster level. You also have no answer to celerity, while the wizard can just sit behind a resilient sphere and yawn.
Rogues/arcane casters multiclasses can and do work, but a straight rogue x/sorc x isn't one of those ways. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 15:36:24
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok.
WOW... are you just reading black and white rules to me? Anyone who knows how to play a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10 can take out a 20th level wizard if you use your brain. I adore how you think a wizard who casts 9th level spells is the ultimate, unbeatable thing ever.
I adore how you think a rogue with poor BAB, half progression sneak attack and 5th level spells is going to be anything other than a minor nuisance to the wizard. Or cleric. Or druid.
Objectively, you don't actually have anything that can harm a wizard. High level play in 3.5 is rocket tag, and wizards simply have too many advantages, from project image and his choice of murder spells, to celerity and his choice of murder spells, to shape change and eating you alive, to mordenkainen's disjunction and his choice of murder spells.
The cardinal rule of 3.5 is don't give up caster levels. You seem to think that the rogue is a powerful class, but it really isn't. You lurk in Giant in the Playground CEV, you should know how 3.5 is like.
There's a reason why theurge classes are seen as poor CEV. If mystic theurge and true necromancers are seen as inferior to pure arcane casters and divine casters, what makes you think that your rogue 10/sorc 10 is in any way better?
Seriously, go read up on the 3.5 class tier list.
I truly enjoy this banter between us. The Rogue, played correctly is powerful. As is the wizard. Hell, a 20th level Cleric would most likely crush a 20th level Wizard. So yeah, your spells are deadly, I get that. But once you're up close, face-to-face, the wizard is a sloppy, punching bag. lol.
quote:
Seriously, go read up on the 3.5 class tier list.
Bwahhahahaha... okay, I'm done. Your idea of what is powerful is not ours. You have always been black and white D&D, and I remain as colorful as a Prismatic chain-blast.
I would LOVE to play a 20th level rogue against your 20th level wizard. Hell... I'll take the 10th level rogue/ 10th level Sorcerer against you in combat. Win or lose I'll certainly open your eyes in the end.
How about this... tell me your current spells for the day with your wizard, and I'll tell you how I can beat or get around them, lol. Get your dice ready, because it's a game of luck really. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 15:14:48
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok.
WOW... are you just reading black and white rules to me? Anyone who knows how to play a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10 can take out a 20th level wizard if you use your brain. I adore how you think a wizard who casts 9th level spells is the ultimate, unbeatable thing ever.
I adore how you think a rogue with poor BAB, half progression sneak attack and 5th level spells is going to be anything other than a minor nuisance to the wizard. Or cleric. Or druid.
Objectively, you don't actually have anything that can harm a wizard. High level play in 3.5 is rocket tag, and wizards simply have too many advantages, from project image and his choice of murder spells, to celerity and his choice of murder spells, to shape change and eating you alive, to mordenkainen's disjunction and his choice of murder spells.
The cardinal rule of 3.5 is don't give up caster levels. You seem to think that the rogue is a powerful class, but it really isn't. You lurk in Giant in the Playground CEV, you should know how 3.5 is like.
There's a reason why theurge classes are seen as poor CEV. If mystic theurge and true necromancers are seen as inferior to pure arcane casters and divine casters, what makes you think that your rogue 10/sorc 10 is in any way better?
Seriously, go read up on the 3.5 class tier list. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 15:10:40
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I... I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling. The wizard is, by far, the most powerful class in the game, only equalled by CoDzilla and the Arcanist. He has so many ways to murder a rogue 10 that it isn't funny.
A rogue 10/sor 10 will have terrible bab, poor spellcasting, and is likely having to deal with the wizard shrugging off his sneak attacks assuming the wizard isn't outright immune. Meanwhile, the wizard will auto win against your buffs.
How can you claim to eat and breathe the 3.5e system without knowing that casters are the most powerful thing in the game? It just doesn't add up, especially in epic where epic spellcasting is so easily broken.
Bwahahaha.... You slay me truly. Your 20th level wizard is certainly not the Alpha or Omega in the game. How can your 20th level wizard shrug off sneak attacks from a 10th level rogue when your Reflex score is ultimately weak? Not to mention a really poor Fortitude score as well. You seem to treat multi-class characters like they're worthless and sub-par. And yes I know what Min/Max means, thank you. I can assure you that my 10th level Rogue/ 10th level Sorcerer will be maxed to the teeth in any game I play, that will crush a solid 20th level wizard.
In the end my friend, it all comes down to how you play the character in question. What gear you have, and how you use your skills, feats, skill-tricks and skill-feats, etc... |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 14:56:18
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot.
Did you ever re-read what you wrote? You want more choices in a limited class, restricted pre-option game??? LOL!! |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 14:53:27
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Almost... You're a 20th level PC to start in a beginners epic game and this is your lot in life. You cannot start the Module and connect with your future companions unless you choose one of these limited class combos. That is it. Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
Let us focus on your very own term "beginners epic game". That is an extraordinarily awkward combination, especially knowing this game is D&D 3.5 edition. Yes, I have played a limited class, restricted pre-option game multiple times. The ones that lasted more than 3 hours always started at Level 1 where restricted options make sense. Starting straight at level 20 has all the feel of a video game where the player can - save at any moment
- pause the game
- turn off the computer for however long
- boot up the computer and log into the game
- then resume play as if nothing had happened in that indefinite time period the computer was off.
By starting at Level 1, the DM can set the tone of the setting and its axioms (a.k.a., the rationale behind limited classes and restricted pre-option). There is something unforced about assumptions when characters start at Level 1 and 0 XP because it is clear they are starting with a clean slate. Starting at Level 20 forces the DM to pull all these ninja tricks as to how and why the characters got into their position, for good or for ill. Otherwise, the game devolves into the feel of a pause and restart video game.
If your DM and the other players - whose styles you have known for years - are comfortable with the parameters you described, by all means go ahead. My 38 years of D&D experience suggest you start at Level One. That goes double for 3.5 edition, which is notorious for Rocket Tag power mechanics at Level 20+. I would not bother joining such a game.
It's unfortunate you feel this way. We play differently I suppose. I started playing Advanced D&D back in 1984 when fighting a 100HP demigod was almost impossible. I'm presenting a challenge in this thread. That's all. Quite simple. Didn't expect 4 pages of people telling me I'm wrong. lol. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 14:45:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot.
Agreed. This sounds more like a game you'd play with a 10-year-old. "Here's your character. Her name is Amanda and she likes Unicorns. When she meets her friends, I want her to say this..."
A limited class, restricted pre-option game is telling your players no multiclassing, don't use X book, or no rogues. It's not giving them a paper doll and telling them they can wear whatever outfit you give them.
Right. And the point is what? That's what a limited class, restricted pre-option game is. lol. Those games are very fun because it forces you to do the best you can with what you're given. lol. We like that. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 14:42:13
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok.
WOW... are you just reading black and white rules to me? Anyone who knows how to play a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10 can take out a 20th level wizard if you use your brain. I adore how you think a wizard who casts 9th level spells is the ultimate, unbeatable thing ever. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 13:13:41
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot.
Agreed. This sounds more like a game you'd play with a 10-year-old. "Here's your character. Her name is Amanda and she likes Unicorns. When she meets her friends, I want her to say this..."
A limited class, restricted pre-option game is telling your players no multiclassing, don't use X book, or no rogues. It's not giving them a paper doll and telling them they can wear whatever outfit you give them. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 12:25:41
Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 07:00:24
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Almost... You're a 20th level PC to start in a beginners epic game and this is your lot in life. You cannot start the Module and connect with your future companions unless you choose one of these limited class combos. That is it. Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
Let us focus on your very own term "beginners epic game". That is an extraordinarily awkward combination, especially knowing this game is D&D 3.5 edition. Yes, I have played a limited class, restricted pre-option game multiple times. The ones that lasted more than 3 hours always started at Level 1 where restricted options make sense. Starting straight at level 20 has all the feel of a video game where the player can - save at any moment
- pause the game
- turn off the computer for however long
- boot up the computer and log into the game
- then resume play as if nothing had happened in that indefinite time period the computer was off.
By starting at Level 1, the DM can set the tone of the setting and its axioms (a.k.a., the rationale behind limited classes and restricted pre-option). There is something unforced about assumptions when characters start at Level 1 and 0 XP because it is clear they are starting with a clean slate. Starting at Level 20 forces the DM to pull all these ninja tricks as to how and why the characters got into their position, for good or for ill. Otherwise, the game devolves into the feel of a pause and restart video game.
If your DM and the other players - whose styles you have known for years - are comfortable with the parameters you described, by all means go ahead. My 38 years of D&D experience suggest you start at Level One. That goes double for 3.5 edition, which is notorious for Rocket Tag power mechanics at Level 20+. I would not bother joining such a game. |
| Tasker Daze |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 05:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 23:07:19
I... I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling. The wizard is, by far, the most powerful class in the game, only equalled by CoDzilla and the Arcanist. He has so many ways to murder a rogue 10 that it isn't funny.
A rogue 10/sor 10 will have terrible bab, poor spellcasting, and is likely having to deal with the wizard shrugging off his sneak attacks assuming the wizard isn't outright immune. Meanwhile, the wizard will auto win against your buffs.
How can you claim to eat and breathe the 3.5e system without knowing that casters are the most powerful thing in the game? It just doesn't add up, especially in epic where epic spellcasting is so easily broken. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 22:35:00
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Nobody's bashing you for epic level play.
It's just that your proposed writeup for Elaith, and most of your NPCs, are kind of...weird. Like it or not, epic play requires a degree of minmax and understanding the game system; I just don't see that in a 20th level build that has 10th level casting, or a 30th level build with 20th level casting, or Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee being passed off as a build that will carry players far.
I mean, none of it is really thinking outside the box. Diffan is the one that went outside the box here, taking your proposed build and turning it into a swordsage. Your proposed builds are all divine caster/divine caster prc or divine caster/divine caster prc/quirky prc, and that wizard/wild mage/cleric/sacred fist thing that's horrible at both arcane and divine casting thanks to being, at most, a 10th level pure caster in a 20th level campaign.
quote:
epic play requires a degree of minmax and understanding the game system; I just don't see that in a 20th level build that has 10th level casting, or a 30th level build with 20th level casting, or Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee being passed off as a build that will carry players far.
....
I'm truly sorry you don't play games where everyone isn't a level 20 max single class character alone. The min/max thing is important in our game, so far as we play the PC or the DM plays the NPC correctly. How is a single class Wizard 20, more powerful than a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10? The Rogue 10 will roll past most of your spells of harm depending on the roll and your stats, gear and whatnot. If the rogue rolls closer and closer in proximity then eventually he can blind-side the wizard and sneak attack with blade or spell and do much more damage to the individual.
At least the way we play the D20 system.
|
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 22:15:43
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The sacred fist is a good prestige class, yes, but it also depends on the base class. Your rogues and fighters are going to stay at a solid level 1, while players pump the divine caster side of things because prepared casters are the most versatile and powerful things in the game.
And yes, a swordsage will do wonders, as the unarmed swordsage is a thing and is mentioned in the Book of 9 swords. The Tome of Nine Swords classes are supposed to reduce the gap between martials and casters. The swordsage is solidly tier 3, while the monk is generally considered to be one of the poorest martial classes in the game. You claim you play epic level, you should know how 3.5 works by now.
It's even worse that it's 20th level, because your 20th level slavers can comfortably stay out of your weaponless, spell-less, sacred fist's reach while nuking him from 300 feet in the air...or are they all going to be standing 5 feet before him?
And...I don't see how your claims make Elaith 20th level. Nothing he's ever shown puts him at 20th level. In comparison, a 17th level wizard in the Spider Queen series was taking on a small army of fiends. You also don't seem to get that your proposed build for Elaith is terrible. He's a warrior-mage; make him an abjurant champion instead of the bizarre hybrid of classes that make him utterly terrible in all his fields.
If you use the Complete Scoundrel accessory, then you can be a Melee/Caster no problem while getting roguish stuff in abundance. But if you don't us the accessory, then he would have the rogue class with enough skills to thwart and bypass moderate magical traps. IDK. Elaith has a rogue element to him, so maybe we should use the Complete Scoundrel book to supplement that aspect of him.
That's why they came out with that 3.5 accessory.... because some PC's and NPC's are rogues in personality, disposition and morals, without having the rogue class.
Not saying I'm right. Just saying there is more to consider in game play. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 22:05:12
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations.
Let's step back to the beginning. So we have an PC with a background of slavery. As I understand, the session starts play with the PC in slavery. The only way a PC with - 20 levels in whatever combination of core and prestige classes
and - a slavery background
is - to break out of slavery, advance levels in those classes, then get captured, disarmed and sold back into slavery
or - the PC somehow advanced to 20 levels of their classes while spending his or her whole time in slavery
or - the gaming premise is 20th level is the new 1st level and lower levels are reserved for commoners, aristocrats, experts and warriors.
The first bullet of the three conclusions is the one that would be most likely to satisfy Occam's Razor. The other two conclusions require some extra effort and developing a rationale. This argument applies regardless of PC race or class, mandated by DM or otherwise.
The latter two bullets really challenge any suspension of disbelief. The situation gets even more strained if the proposed level 20 PC's have all class levels in multiples of 5. It is this suspension of disbelief that I hereby assert is necessary to have a successful, enjoyable gaming session. The fact the poll itself is debated rather than people's responses to the poll being debated leads me to conclude the suspension of disbelief is just not there.
Almost... You're a 20th level PC to start in a beginners epic game and this is your lot in life. You cannot start the Module and connect with your future companions unless you choose one of these limited class combos. That is it. Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before? |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 21:58:37
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You can be an epic Swordsage all you want, but without your weapons, you're just another victim.
quote:
Originally created by the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords
To create a Monk-like character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.
This puts the Swordsage on-par with Monks when comparing their Unarmed Strike (elbow, knee, fist) damage. Swordsages also add their Wisdom modifier to any strike they make (so that Inferno Blast is actually dealing 105 damage for a Reflex DC 24 save for half). Understand that the swordsage can do Inferno Blast every other round. All day. No components. No somatic abilities. I do believe it's a Supernatural effect, thus affected by Anti-Magic Field though.
That's sort of the beauty behind these classes and this sub-system. It does allow for a lot of martial and supernatural capabilities with limited supplies. A Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist can do some of these things sure, but they also have spells that require a spell component or holy symbol. They also need time to cast these spells too.
So assume you have an elf cleric 8/ monk 2/ Sacred Fist 10, you're still only getting to 8th level spells at best. Your Unarmed Strike Damage is only 2d6 (and you're not adding anything but your Strength modifier to the damage roll). Your base saves are +16/+12/+12 (not bad at all, but the Swordsage is comparable).
Feat-wise, you get some freedom to take things like Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) that uses Wisdom for Attack rolls (not damage rolls) and maybe devote some options to better use of your Turn Undead abilities. I actually prefer either Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine supplement) Quicken Spell or Persistent Spell. The former adds a quicker variety of options but the latter adds a longer effect. So that Divine Might/Righteous Might combo lasts all day long. The latter also requires a significant amount of turning attempts per-day. As an elf and I'm assuming point-buy or maybe the elite array for stats, Charisma isn't going to be super high on that list, so you're going to Persist one, maybe two spells per-day.
What I'm trying to say is that the above options aren't bad in and of themselves, but for a character who's been thrown into Slavery, and asking what sort of character to make in such dire circumstances, I'd much rather prefer the more quick and versatile Swordsage/master of nine combination. Adding Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist in here doesn't completely derail the options, but I wouldn't call them a boost either. If anything it adds some healing and maybe some get-out quick capabilities like Obscuring Mist or maybe simply some extra damage with Ice Gauntlet. It could also be used for utility spells like Ebon Eyes, allowing you to see better in the near total darkness that is the Underdark.
Brilliant. I never put the two together. wow. very cool. |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 21:55:02
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Elaith Craulnober: CN Moon elf male of Evermeet. Fighter 5/ Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 10. CR; 20.
One thing I want to touch upon, though I know this isn't really part of the discussion, but I feel 4E would have done a much better job representing Elaith's stats than either 3e or 5e. For a good conversion, he'd be about 18th to 19th level challenge in 4th Edition. Due to his cunning, I'd definitely put him as either a Controller role or possibly a Skirmisher role since he's all about that fancy sword work and mixes it up with arcane attacks.
At first glance I thought the Swordmage abilities would really fit him, because he's protective of his Moonblade heirloom and it's current owner Azariah. BUT that is something exceptionally special that doesn't really fit the theme of Swordmages who want to protect others too. In the end, I'd give him some decent attacks with his longsword and dagger, with some arcane attacks too. Probably some utility with Invisibility spells and a plethora of rituals and scrolls.
Yes! On point with that. Yes he is a fighter, and arcane caster, but he has a 3.5 roguishness to him that leads me to believe that he would have sufficient rogue levels as well. In 3.0 he was stated as CR 12 I believe? And that was 1372 DR? WE have no idea what happened to him due to the fact that WoTc or whomever decided to cancel her trilogy before she could finish her amazing storyline for him. Elaine Cunningham that is. The author who took an Ed Greenwood NPC and turned him into something in your face and interesting.
Remember that ancient elven blade dance he did in "Elfsong". To this day that scene plays in my mind with a thousand "Huzazzahs".
Anyway... I thought my stats for him were pretty correct if you add in the hundred-plus years since 1372DR. He would have had more than enough time to level up from CR 12 to CR 20.
Just my two Zhents.
CEV. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 30 Mar 2020 : 21:52:37
Master Rupert,
I understand that you're taking the literal listing of 20th level as the parameter given by Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire. I understand why. However, just because Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire got it wrong about what constitutes powerful (there are many examples of characters below the childish notion of 20th being some vaunted, sacrosanct point of power), doesn't mean going with the incorrect assumption or parameter makes it any more correct. Pellanistra Ousstyl (CE female drow P12 of Lolth) of House Ousstyl was a matron mother (Drizz't DoUrden's Guide to the Underdark, p.49), though I am not necessarily saying that those two Pellanistra's are one and the same, though they could be, as she was identified as an "enemy of Menzoberranzan." Matron Mother's are powerful. Just because they were not selling her at the moment, doesn't mean it isn't the same situation. Though, if that is a hang up for you, you may recognize by reading proximate to that quoted passage that Pharaun was even considering buying her, but the time would take too long to negotiate the sale from Nym. So, a sale apparently was an option, just not feasible/.
That being said, there is an absolute sensibility to the idea that this female Drow was powerful. It is stated in that novel that most female Drow are killed on site due to their prowess. Powerful ones are restrained and sold into sexual slavery for the added benefit of extra humiliation, torture and domination. So, it is feasible that she was powerful.
Propagation of non-contextual explicit statements, when unnecessary, and pushing a banal trope from the creator of a poll just further highlights an already clearly, and poorly constructed poll.
Essentially, the argument here is about what constitutes a person of power. If you are still of the mind, which I have no reason to believe you have changed your mind, that powerful people are powerful when they can one on one somebody as per our discussion about Shoon VII in another scroll, then this is just a situation where we can agree to disagree in reference to that scroll.
I consider that female Drow to be powerful, when having access to her powers, but also due to her position in Drow society.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I only take exception to one point you made here, which is in defiance of established canon:
quote:
I don't see why a bunch of 20th level slavers are going to be looking to sell another level 20 character.
There was a scene in War of the Spider Queen Book 1: Dissolution that clearly describes why a slaver would in fact sell someone of power, i.e. the vaunted level referred too in this scroll.
quote:
The reason was that, while they generally devoted their military efforts to fighting cloakers, svirfneblin, and other competing civilizations of the Underdark, drow cities on rare occasions waged war on one another. Once in a while, such conflicts yielded female prisoners.
The prudent, legitimate thing to do with such potentially dangerous captives was interrogate, torture, and kill them. That fact notwithstanding, Nym had on several occasions managed to bribe officers to give him their prisoners, whom he then smuggled into Menzoberranzan and down to the cellar of the Jewel Box.
Nym had gone to all this trouble based on the shrewd and well-proven assumption that a goodly number of Menzoberranyr males would pay handsomely for the privilege of dominating a female, and in his establishment, one could do anything one wanted with a captive. Nym would even provide a customer with a bastinado, a brazier of coals, thumbscrews . . . his only stipulation being that one must pay a surcharge if one left a permanent mark.
Since the brothel's existence was an open secret, Pharaun wasn't sure why the matron mothers hadn't shut it down. On the face of it, it certainly seemed to encourage disrespect for the ruling gender. Perhaps they felt that if a male had a refuge in which to act out his resentments, it would make him all the more deferential to the females in his home. More likely, Nym was slipping them a substantial portion of the take.
At any rate, the Jewel Box seemed a reasonable place to seek information concerning rogue males, especially if one had a spy in place. Pharaun wasn't confident that he did anymore, but one never knew.
The stairs emptied into a hallway of numbered doors. Moans of passions and grunts of pain sounded faintly from behind several of them. It was busier than usual.
The mage strolled down the passage until he found number fourteen. He hesitated for an instant, then scowled and turned the largest of his keys in the lock. The door swung open.
Seated on the bed, shackles clutching her wrists and ankles, Pellanistra looked much as he remembered, the same powerful, shapely limbs and heart-shaped face, with only a few more scars where one or another of her visitors had pressed down too hard, as well as a split lip and closed, puffy eye where a more recent caller had beaten her.
She lifted her face, saw him, and charged with her long-nailed hands outstretched. Then she staggered as one of her governing enchantments riddled her body with pain, and an instant later hit the end of the chains securing her to the wall. She lost her balance and fell on her rump. (War of the Spider Queen Book 1: Dissolution, pp.33-4)
That thoroughly answers why slavers would want to sell a powerful person, in the case of the book, a powerful Drow female priestess: to repeatedly rape her in perpetuity for the purpose of dominance, money, and because their evil and like to cause pain, as was stated and/or implied.
Power and dominance are why people do horrid, evil, unspeakable things like what Bob and Richard wrote about in that book.
As always, I await your rebuttal.
You're reading that wrong. They weren't selling someone of great power, and there's nothing that indicates anyone involved was 20th level.
In fact, if they are prisoners of war, then it is pretty clear they have little personal or political power -- at least in Menzoberranzan.
The passage you cite was specifically about letting someone oppressed have power over someone of the same class as their oppressors.
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