| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bill Bisco |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 15:36:56
So, Baalzebul is the ruler of the 7th Layer of the Nine Hells called Maladomini.
However, Baalzebul is himself a former archon from the Seven Heavens of Celestia.
So, who ruled the 7th layer of Hell before Baalzebul came along and how did s/he lose it? |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 00:38:05
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Well, cool. Glad I was on in that regard! :)
haha...I'll get right on that. Avernus, here I come! Oddly...I've yet to that novel yet, even though I own it! Yeah, from what I've heard, it is ugly what happened to him. I really like the gritty real stuff though. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
No problem at all. Even under a different name, you described Dagon's story to a T.
If you really want to get on Dagon's good side, go to Avernus and cast the ritual of renaming (3.5ed Tome of Magic, pp. 257-258) on his behalf and rename him Jaqon. Unfortunately, the ritual takes one hour and casting the ritual will catch Big Azzie's attention, which tends to be fatal for all antagonists involved.
Nergal the outcast devil (not the deceased Untheric deity) is a major character in the novel Elminster in Hell. It is more gruesome than other FR novels. I'm surprised Elminster is not a PTSD case...or maybe he is. Sorry I do not know what made Nergal an outcast devil.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
First of all: thanks for the correction!
Second: how bizarre I mixed up the two. Nergal and Dagon are Mesopotamian and Canaanite deities. Not shocking of course in light of how Realms pulls so hard from real world stuff, but I completely mixed it up! haha
Best regards,
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 00:17:35
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
No problem at all. Even under a different name, you described Dagon's story to a T.
If you really want to get on Dagon's good side, go to Avernus and cast the ritual of renaming (3.5ed Tome of Magic, pp. 257-258) on his behalf and rename him Jaqon. Unfortunately, the ritual takes one hour and casting the ritual will catch Big Azzie's attention, which tends to be fatal for all antagonists involved.
Nergal the outcast devil (not the deceased Untheric deity) is a major character in the novel Elminster in Hell. It is more gruesome than other FR novels. I'm surprised Elminster is not a PTSD case...or maybe he is. Sorry I do not know what made Nergal an outcast devil.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
First of all: thanks for the correction!
Second: how bizarre I mixed up the two. Nergal and Dagon are Mesopotamian and Canaanite deities. Not shocking of course in light of how Realms pulls so hard from real world stuff, but I completely mixed it up! haha
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 23:34:15
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
First of all: thanks for the correction!
Second: how bizarre I mixed up the two. Nergal and Dagon are Mesopotamian and Canaanite deities. Not shocking of course in light of how Realms pulls so hard from real world stuff, but I completely mixed it up! haha
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker lookatroopa,
I believe this to be accurate. I remember reading somewhere that Asmodeus deposed Nergal, a former Duke of Hell after he fought with Asmoedeus. Asmodeus then changed his name from Nergal, to Dagon, so he could not be summoned. Effectively, put him in a box.
If the original ruler of the 7th was a loser to Asmodeus, he probably kicked him out, replaced him, and didn't want anything coming back so changed his name too.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
If Dragon #28's The Politics of Hell is to be believed, Baalzebul (formerly known as Beelzebub) was the very first ruler of Maladomini under Asmodeus' restructuring of the Hells as a series of fiefdoms (as well as the first ruler of the Sixth, Malbolge). Fiendish Codex II, however, says that Baalzebul took the position of an unnamed ally of Asmodeus from the time before the Pact Primeval was signed. With some stretching, one could interpret this prior ruler of the Seventh as being the Beelzebub mentioned in The Politics of Hell, recontextualizing the name change as an actual replacement.
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
The outcast devil to which you refer was originally named Jaqon. Asmodeus banished him to Avernus and forcibly renamed him to Dagon. It seemed as if Dagon at the time was a little too loose lipped with Baatorian intel that The Big A wanted under wraps, particularly true names of unique devils. The consorts of the archdevils really hated him even more than the other devils did. Big A spared Dagon's life to keep the consorts and other compromised unique devils beholden to Asmodeus. We can reasonably assume Dagon's intel did not include the bit about Asmodeus being the avatar of the original Twin Serpent of Law-Ahriman. Else Dagon would have been killed within 24 hours. By the way, the obyrith lord Dagon of the 89th layer of the Abyss considered the forcible renaming a major insult.
Back to the main topic, was Baalzebul ruling the 7th when Big A destroyed Beherit and his consort Batna? I'm trying the eliminate the option that Beherit was the original ruler of Maladomini unless my information is faulty.
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 12:47:31
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker lookatroopa,
I believe this to be accurate. I remember reading somewhere that Asmodeus deposed Nergal, a former Duke of Hell after he fought with Asmoedeus. Asmodeus then changed his name from Nergal, to Dagon, so he could not be summoned. Effectively, put him in a box.
If the original ruler of the 7th was a loser to Asmodeus, he probably kicked him out, replaced him, and didn't want anything coming back so changed his name too.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
If Dragon #28's The Politics of Hell is to be believed, Baalzebul (formerly known as Beelzebub) was the very first ruler of Maladomini under Asmodeus' restructuring of the Hells as a series of fiefdoms (as well as the first ruler of the Sixth, Malbolge). Fiendish Codex II, however, says that Baalzebul took the position of an unnamed ally of Asmodeus from the time before the Pact Primeval was signed. With some stretching, one could interpret this prior ruler of the Seventh as being the Beelzebub mentioned in The Politics of Hell, recontextualizing the name change as an actual replacement.
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
The outcast devil to which you refer was originally named Jaqon. Asmodeus banished him to Avernus and forcibly renamed him to Dagon. It seemed as if Dagon at the time was a little too loose lipped with Baatorian intel that The Big A wanted under wraps, particularly true names of unique devils. The consorts of the archdevils really hated him even more than the other devils did. Big A spared Dagon's life to keep the consorts and other compromised unique devils beholden to Asmodeus. We can reasonably assume Dagon's intel did not include the bit about Asmodeus being the avatar of the original Twin Serpent of Law-Ahriman. Else Dagon would have been killed within 24 hours. By the way, the obyrith lord Dagon of the 89th layer of the Abyss considered the forcible renaming a major insult.
Back to the main topic, was Baalzebul ruling the 7th when Big A destroyed Beherit and his consort Batna? I'm trying the eliminate the option that Beherit was the original ruler of Maladomini unless my information is faulty. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 21:21:52
Seeker lookatroopa,
I believe this to be accurate. I remember reading somewhere that Asmodeus deposed Nergal, a former Duke of Hell after he fought with Asmoedeus. Asmodeus then changed his name from Nergal, to Dagon, so he could not be summoned. Effectively, put him in a box.
If the original ruler of the 7th was a loser to Asmodeus, he probably kicked him out, replaced him, and didn't want anything coming back so changed his name too.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
If Dragon #28's The Politics of Hell is to be believed, Baalzebul (formerly known as Beelzebub) was the very first ruler of Maladomini under Asmodeus' restructuring of the Hells as a series of fiefdoms (as well as the first ruler of the Sixth, Malbolge). Fiendish Codex II, however, says that Baalzebul took the position of an unnamed ally of Asmodeus from the time before the Pact Primeval was signed. With some stretching, one could interpret this prior ruler of the Seventh as being the Beelzebub mentioned in The Politics of Hell, recontextualizing the name change as an actual replacement.
|
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 17:16:54
Yes, The 7th layer of the 9 was always ruled by the big B, even in 1ED Advanced D&D. |
| lookatroopa |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 16:07:59
If Dragon #28's The Politics of Hell is to be believed, Baalzebul (formerly known as Beelzebub) was the very first ruler of Maladomini under Asmodeus' restructuring of the Hells as a series of fiefdoms (as well as the first ruler of the Sixth, Malbolge). Fiendish Codex II, however, says that Baalzebul took the position of an unnamed ally of Asmodeus from the time before the Pact Primeval was signed. With some stretching, one could interpret this prior ruler of the Seventh as being the Beelzebub mentioned in The Politics of Hell, recontextualizing the name change as an actual replacement. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 15:51:15
Maybe one for Ed himself? He answers a lot on Twitter and knows the 9 Hells as well as anyone living. I don't recall the pre-Baalzebul ruler being mentioned in the 1st Edition material which is all I'm familiar with! |
|
|
