| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 14:31:21
I have pondered around this concept several times, but I hadn't put together these disparate pieces in the past. Can this be made true OR is there some conflicting pieces of realmslore?
The general premise is that the continents of Maztica/"Anchorome"/Lopango/Katashaka and maybe even "Osse" haven't always been on Toril and have been translocating between "somewhere else" and Toril several times. That might be Abeir. That might be earth. That might be somewhere else entirely OR even multiple different places. The "first time" they went somewhere else would have been after the "elven sundering". Then perhaps they came back to Toril around ~3450 when some Tears suddenly started appearing in the sky following the moon and there were massive tidal waves. Possibly the manifestations of the Mulan people then road ships that BECAME mountains (for instance the Teyla Shan/Godswatch Mountains) or that were mountains and the "stories" handed down were that they were galleys/barges FROM these lands (maybe the Mulan gods came from Katashaka or the island very near it which is shaped a lot like Africa). Then when many of the Mulan deities died in the Orcgate Wars these lands went away again. This may be why the Netherese never mention them whenever a few years later they start spelljamming. Then, maybe at some unspecified points (possibly even in correlation to the wildtide portals in the Sea of Corynactis, so every 720 years I think) its been transferring between different places (or two places).
What we know:
roughly ~4800 years before 1357 DR (so around -3450 DR) both the Shou Lung and elven nation of Evermeet a "sudden popping into existence" of objects near the moon and sudden changes in the tide (source realmspace)
The Imaskari develop the "twin portals" that enable them to reach another world and kidnap the people there, eventually creating the Mulan ethnicity.
-2809 pilgrimage of the tabaxi from Katashaka
-2488 DR The Imaskar civilization came to a violent end in –2488 DR. Unbeknownst to the Imaskari, the gods of the Mulan had finally heard their people’s prayers. Bypassing the great planar seal, these gods sent powerful avatars (known as manifestations) of themselves through the empty void of space to Toril. Upon their arrival on the peaks of Teyla Shan (the Godswatch Mountains), these powers quickly descended into the Raurin Plateau, building an army and fomenting rebellion as they passed.
-1076 Orcgate Wars Start as a portal somewhere in the Unapproachable East is opened (possibly at the site of future Shandaular? Possibly using one of the twin portals?)
-1071 DR
* The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide.
* The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are slain by orc deities.
* During the final Battle of the Gods, Tiamat launches a surprise attack against Gilgeam while he battles Ilneval. The ever-vigilant Marduk intervenes, killing Tiamat before she can land a death blow against Gilgeam, but at the cost of his own life.The Sun eclipses
-1069 The Orcgate is Destroyed
-1064 Netherese enter wildspace
-1064 The Shandaular/Council Hills Gate opens connecting the lands just south of Unther and the lands west of Rashemen (possibly the twin portals linking?)
~-964 Netherese quit going to wildspace
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 02:55:04
Great Reader sleyvas,
Heck, I think there is enough room in the inconsistencies of lore to make this work with a little fudging here and there. Your approach seems reasonable regarding the geography, etc.
Do it!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, when I started this topic, I was basically picturing the Mulan gods arriving in Imaskar on essentially earthmotes that come to make up the Teyla Shan (Godswatch) mountains, and perhaps they "fell onto" Imaskar's outer edges in a similar way how Abeir "fell on" Chessenta/Unther. Later the "ship of the gods" island may have moved (or perhaps it landed where it did originally). Does that imagery make for something more awe inspiring or less compared to the original story that the two godly groups arrived on ship transports?
Something to take into account with is that "Abeir falling on Unther" only happened in, well, Unther. In Chessenta and other places, the term used is "exchange of lands" or "transposition", which means the process that formed Tymanther was quite unique. It seems to be related with the destruction of Glaur Fortress during the arrival of the Spellplague to Abeir, though there are only hints and not actual proof.
As for the ships the gods, I remember the Galley of the Gods (the ship used by the Not-Summer Gods) was mentioned as an actual ship, but I don't remember the source. Either one of the 2e magic item sourcebooks, or the Old Empires book. Wasn't the Galley stolen by pirates in 3e?
The Galley of the Gods was mentioned in Old Empires I believe (I remember having an NPC of mine using it for piracy named Tiiushi the Sea Queen). Then Powers and Pantheons also detailed the two ships at least in name. I should clarify that I absolutely get that this concept does somewhat break the canon story of their arrival. However, both CAN be made true if we want in having them arrive on mountains and then using their smaller ships to move about locally.
BTW, if this WERE how the Teyla Shan mountains (or some portion of them) came about and it had to do with the arrival of the Mulan manifestations, this could have resulted in a lot of death for the Imaskari people, and there might be whole civilizations buried beneath those mountains. I only bring up this concept because I've long held that there was some hidden mystery behind the island known as the ship of the gods.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 21:48:06
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, when I started this topic, I was basically picturing the Mulan gods arriving in Imaskar on essentially earthmotes that come to make up the Teyla Shan (Godswatch) mountains, and perhaps they "fell onto" Imaskar's outer edges in a similar way how Abeir "fell on" Chessenta/Unther. Later the "ship of the gods" island may have moved (or perhaps it landed where it did originally). Does that imagery make for something more awe inspiring or less compared to the original story that the two godly groups arrived on ship transports?
Something to take into account with is that "Abeir falling on Unther" only happened in, well, Unther. In Chessenta and other places, the term used is "exchange of lands" or "transposition", which means the process that formed Tymanther was quite unique. It seems to be related with the destruction of Glaur Fortress during the arrival of the Spellplague to Abeir, though there are only hints and not actual proof.
As for the ships the gods, I remember the Galley of the Gods (the ship used by the Not-Summer Gods) was mentioned as an actual ship, but I don't remember the source. Either one of the 2e magic item sourcebooks, or the Old Empires book. Wasn't the Galley stolen by pirates in 3e?
The Galley of the Gods was mentioned in Old Empires I believe (I remember having an NPC of mine using it for piracy named Tiiushi the Sea Queen). Then Powers and Pantheons also detailed the two ships at least in name. I should clarify that I absolutely get that this concept does somewhat break the canon story of their arrival. However, both CAN be made true if we want in having them arrive on mountains and then using their smaller ships to move about locally.
BTW, if this WERE how the Teyla Shan mountains (or some portion of them) came about and it had to do with the arrival of the Mulan manifestations, this could have resulted in a lot of death for the Imaskari people, and there might be whole civilizations buried beneath those mountains. I only bring up this concept because I've long held that there was some hidden mystery behind the island known as the ship of the gods. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 16:03:46
Senior Scribe Seethyr,
I cannot disagree there. Though I am not well read on SJ at all (frankly, most of what I've learned what on here from Master Rupert), it does seem like it could use a legit upgrade and in fact could be good. Now, that being said, we know what products and lore have been like lately, so... yeah. I'll just wait and see. My preference would be for WotC to just get past this current iteration, get to 6e and try to get things back on track.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
It's a good thing I never got into it then. That is really...odd. Is it Leira being crazy or something? What was the justification for Selune being covered by an illusion?
Lurue only knows.
The book said the Leirans were really paranoid... But that's about it. They're an art-happy bunch that is inexplicably paranoid about an invasion from Toril. Aside from the illusion, nothing really suggests a connection to Leira (or explains why she's casting a big-ass illusion on someone else's home turf).
Also, the fact that there's no mention in Realmslore of the moon suddenly going from green to white implies that the Leirans have been there for all of recorded history.
Oh, and this illusion is 500 feet above the moon's surface -- but somehow conceals the entire atmosphere. Considering that most clouds are going to be higher than 500 feet, that's really an interesting trick.
The sheer number of issues just with this section of the book is part of why I simply disregard this lore. As I've mentioned previously, the Spelljammer lore that deals with specific settings either isn't backed up with the lore of those settings, or is actively contradicted by such -- like the fact that Krynnspace explicitly states the three moons of Krynn remain equidistant from each other, despite Dragonlance rules and lore discussing conjunctions of the moons.
Though I got beat up for suggesting this elsewhere, this is part of the reason I believe that SJ sorely needs an official update. I’d fully expect some handwaiving away of the items that make no sense along with the requisite complaints of “that’s not how it used to be!!!” but SJ (particularly Realmspace) just needs minor tweaks like “500 feet was actually 500 miles and the miscalculation has something to do with unit conversion from Selunians to Torillians.” It would be so nice to see.
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 14:40:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
It's a good thing I never got into it then. That is really...odd. Is it Leira being crazy or something? What was the justification for Selune being covered by an illusion?
Lurue only knows.
The book said the Leirans were really paranoid... But that's about it. They're an art-happy bunch that is inexplicably paranoid about an invasion from Toril. Aside from the illusion, nothing really suggests a connection to Leira (or explains why she's casting a big-ass illusion on someone else's home turf).
Also, the fact that there's no mention in Realmslore of the moon suddenly going from green to white implies that the Leirans have been there for all of recorded history.
Oh, and this illusion is 500 feet above the moon's surface -- but somehow conceals the entire atmosphere. Considering that most clouds are going to be higher than 500 feet, that's really an interesting trick.
The sheer number of issues just with this section of the book is part of why I simply disregard this lore. As I've mentioned previously, the Spelljammer lore that deals with specific settings either isn't backed up with the lore of those settings, or is actively contradicted by such -- like the fact that Krynnspace explicitly states the three moons of Krynn remain equidistant from each other, despite Dragonlance rules and lore discussing conjunctions of the moons.
Though I got beat up for suggesting this elsewhere, this is part of the reason I believe that SJ sorely needs an official update. I’d fully expect some handwaiving away of the items that make no sense along with the requisite complaints of “that’s not how it used to be!!!” but SJ (particularly Realmspace) just needs minor tweaks like “500 feet was actually 500 miles and the miscalculation has something to do with unit conversion from Selunians to Torillians.” It would be so nice to see. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 14:07:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, when I started this topic, I was basically picturing the Mulan gods arriving in Imaskar on essentially earthmotes that come to make up the Teyla Shan (Godswatch) mountains, and perhaps they "fell onto" Imaskar's outer edges in a similar way how Abeir "fell on" Chessenta/Unther. Later the "ship of the gods" island may have moved (or perhaps it landed where it did originally). Does that imagery make for something more awe inspiring or less compared to the original story that the two godly groups arrived on ship transports?
Something to take into account with is that "Abeir falling on Unther" only happened in, well, Unther. In Chessenta and other places, the term used is "exchange of lands" or "transposition", which means the process that formed Tymanther was quite unique. It seems to be related with the destruction of Glaur Fortress during the arrival of the Spellplague to Abeir, though there are only hints and not actual proof.
As for the ships the gods, I remember the Galley of the Gods (the ship used by the Not-Summer Gods) was mentioned as an actual ship, but I don't remember the source. Either one of the 2e magic item sourcebooks, or the Old Empires book. Wasn't the Galley stolen by pirates in 3e? |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 08:14:42
Great Reader slevyas,
Much better. Especially when you look at the different kinds of imagery out there on the net. That is an awesome description.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, when I started this topic, I was basically picturing the Mulan gods arriving in Imaskar on essentially earthmotes that come to make up the Teyla Shan (Godswatch) mountains, and perhaps they "fell onto" Imaskar's outer edges in a similar way how Abeir "fell on" Chessenta/Unther. Later the "ship of the gods" island may have moved (or perhaps it landed where it did originally). Does that imagery make for something more awe inspiring or less compared to the original story that the two godly groups arrived on ship transports?
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 02:54:38
So, when I started this topic, I was basically picturing the Mulan gods arriving in Imaskar on essentially earthmotes that come to make up the Teyla Shan (Godswatch) mountains, and perhaps they "fell onto" Imaskar's outer edges in a similar way how Abeir "fell on" Chessenta/Unther. Later the "ship of the gods" island may have moved (or perhaps it landed where it did originally). Does that imagery make for something more awe inspiring or less compared to the original story that the two godly groups arrived on ship transports? |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 20:04:56
Master TBeholder,
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have issues with this. If something covered by an illusion is removed from the illusion's field of effect, there's no reason it shouldn't immediately revert to its normal appearance.
It seems to me that both you and Master Rupert are saying the same thing here. I think it is really just an issue of how far that field goes. Just like with an invisibility spell, if you have an awl pike that extends outside of the area of effect of the invisibility spell, then you will see whatever is too much to fit inside effectively. I've heard 500' from Master Rupert, does anyone else know of any other distances mentioned regarding the area of effect of the illusion spell over Selune?
quote:
quote:
And a tidal upheaval wouldn't be caused by blasting chunks off of something, if those chunks remain in the same area -- the overall mass is still the same.
Nothing says all fragments were captured. Perhaps most weren't. Some could even fall on Toril.
I mean, these are both hypothetical's as to how the two competing gravity fields would fair against one another for the now dislodged bodies of rock/debris. I don't know if that is ever going to get answered by lore, but likely just DM interpretation in game.
quote:
quote:
There's also the fact that if a giant laser blasted chunks off the moon, people wouldn't see chunks suddenly popping up -- they'd see the laser, and the chunks drifting away from the source.
That's not "the fact". That are two guesses for an event which involved mostly unique circumstances and about which we have very little lore.
For one, the shot itself could be completely or mostly invisible (e.g. a Force effect), obvious mainly in what it did, and even then mostly close to it (sudden holes in the clouds encircled by boiling storms, shockwaves, etc).
I just want to start by saying, it sucks that there are now lasers in the Realms, haha (kidding of course, I get it).
Agreed on your point Master TBeholder. Frankly, who knows what the outcome would be since the Realms doesn't appear to have consistency enough in its environmental lore to know if those two possible examples you provide would or would not happen.
I look at it and say that when we start getting into lasers attacking the moon.......I'm backing off and returning to a little more fantasy. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have issues with this.
If something covered by an illusion is removed from the illusion's field of effect, there's no reason it shouldn't immediately revert to its normal appearance.
"Immediately" would start when the fragments leave the veil, i.e. shortly before departing Selune's atmosphere.
But then, these stones were massive chunks of the moon itself. Was the spell merely around them (covering with area of effect, from which they can be removed), or on them?
Either way, aren't we discussing a permanent, planet-scale (even the exclusion zone covering all below upper atmosphere), divinely created illusion? "Immediately" may be stretchable.
quote:
And a tidal upheaval wouldn't be caused by blasting chunks off of something, if those chunks remain in the same area -- the overall mass is still the same.
Nothing says all fragments were captured. Perhaps most weren't. Some could even fall on Toril.
[quote] There's also the fact that if a giant laser blasted chunks off the moon, people wouldn't see chunks suddenly popping up -- they'd see the laser, and the chunks drifting away from the source.
That's not "the fact". That are two guesses for an event which involved mostly unique circumstances and about which we have very little lore.
For one, the shot itself could be completely or mostly invisible (e.g. a Force effect), obvious mainly in what it did, and even then mostly close to it (sudden holes in the clouds encircled by boiling storms, shockwaves, etc).
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 19:03:05
Spell effects don't follow smaller items out of the area of effect -- if it's an area of effect spell, it's tied to one area. The only way the chunks would still be covered was if it was instead many, many individual spells.
If fragments blown off from the moon weren't captured, then there would be a decrease in mass... Tidal upheavals implies an increase in mass.
And I just recalled this, as well: Realmspace doesn't mention damage to the moon, which is something that would justify the Leiran's paranoia. There's no mention of huge craters or anything, either.
Given the available lore in that book, the only conclusion is that the Tears came from somewhere else, and that it was a sudden event. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 17:27:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have issues with this.
If something covered by an illusion is removed from the illusion's field of effect, there's no reason it shouldn't immediately revert to its normal appearance.
"Immediately" would start when the fragments leave the veil, i.e. shortly before departing Selune's atmosphere.
But then, these stones were massive chunks of the moon itself. Was the spell merely around them (covering with area of effect, from which they can be removed), or on them?
Either way, aren't we discussing a permanent, planet-scale (even the exclusion zone covering all below upper atmosphere), divinely created illusion? "Immediately" may be stretchable.
quote:
And a tidal upheaval wouldn't be caused by blasting chunks off of something, if those chunks remain in the same area -- the overall mass is still the same.
Nothing says all fragments were captured. Perhaps most weren't. Some could even fall on Toril.
quote:
There's also the fact that if a giant laser blasted chunks off the moon, people wouldn't see chunks suddenly popping up -- they'd see the laser, and the chunks drifting away from the source.
That's not "the fact". That are two guesses for an event which involved mostly unique circumstances and about which we have very little lore.
For one, the shot itself could be completely or mostly invisible (e.g. a Force effect), obvious mainly in what it did, and even then mostly close to it (sudden holes in the clouds encircled by boiling storms, shockwaves, etc).
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 00:21:19
Great Reader sleyvas,
Well, I actually have to say I like the beings living on Selune, that is cool. I also like your version of the Leiran approach. I think I am nabbing that! :)
It sounds like Spelljammer just screwed it up between what you and Master Rupert are saying.
The whole illusion over 500 feet thing is rampant silliness! lol
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
I did not know Selune was covered by an illusion. Where can I read more about that?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I'm not sure there are any contradictions.
Observations need to be taken with caveats, seeing that:
1. Selune is completely covered with an illusion, so any pieces blasted off the moon surface could be invisible or otherwise anomalous, for a while.
2. Asteroids, unless incandescent (due to being very hot), are not visible while in the shadow (of either planet or moon). They would "suddenly appear" when sunlight hits them.
3. Contact between the inhabitants of Toril and Selune, thus ability to compare notes, is hindered by attitudes of the latter.
BTW (3) would be more understandable if this misunderstanding was caused by an unfortunate incident involving huge magical beam originated from Toril that explosively removed huge chunks out of Selune's surface.
I mean, it's the sort of thing that can leave a lasting impression, you know? 
Its in realmspace. The moon is "as written" inhabited by elves and humans that worship Leira. They have settlements on the surface but the people on Toril can't see them because of the illusion.
My homebrew adapts this. These "elves and humans" are another faction of the "ellefolk" from 2e's "Shadow Rift" for Ravenloft, also known as the Arak. Leira helped them escape the plane of shadow to Selune. Unlike normal Arak, something the elves of Faerun did has made them "breed true" unlike normal arak that can have random subraces of children of the arak (and the arak subraces are WILDLY different is look, size, etc... some are tiny, some medium, some small, some human like, some elven looking, some gnome looking, etc..).In addition the "automatic alignment by subrace" that was found with the Arak is different. So, tiny alven "ellefolk" that looks like a butterfly winged fairy and a small brag "ellefolk" that looks like a very pale muscular beardless dwarf could produce a child that's either an alven or a brag. Exactly how they reproduce might be very different from human methods too and might be fun to contemplate (considering a size medium creature can be born from a size tiny creature.... options like them growing in pods like flowers isn't out of the question). Normally Alven are CG and Brag are LN, but the child's alignment could run the gamut. All the "ellefolk"/Arak (and I call them "ellefolk" as their traditional name as opposed to Arak being the ones who escaped to Ravenloft) are also shapechangers that can change into various animals (brags become horses, alven become bees or butterflies, fir become hedgehogs, Muryan become ferrets, Portunes become turtles or asps, Powrie become small stinging insects, Shee become birds, sith become shadows, teg become foxes) and thus they may spy on visitors in a different form.
Back to the illusion... basically the reason for it would be manifold. First it acts as a cloak to hide these ellefolk from the forces of the plane of shadow that might have tried to find them. Secondarily, it filters the light of the sun, because sunlight hurts "ellefolk" (and there are whole communities beneath the surface of the moon, and the ellefolk will not allow anyone to enter these "mines"). Thirdly, it hides their true community from visitors, such that most visitors think that these are merely humans and elves on the moon. This "lie" that keeps them safe is why so many of them still follow Leira.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 23:47:12
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
I did not know Selune was covered by an illusion. Where can I read more about that?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I'm not sure there are any contradictions.
Observations need to be taken with caveats, seeing that:
1. Selune is completely covered with an illusion, so any pieces blasted off the moon surface could be invisible or otherwise anomalous, for a while.
2. Asteroids, unless incandescent (due to being very hot), are not visible while in the shadow (of either planet or moon). They would "suddenly appear" when sunlight hits them.
3. Contact between the inhabitants of Toril and Selune, thus ability to compare notes, is hindered by attitudes of the latter.
BTW (3) would be more understandable if this misunderstanding was caused by an unfortunate incident involving huge magical beam originated from Toril that explosively removed huge chunks out of Selune's surface.
I mean, it's the sort of thing that can leave a lasting impression, you know?
Its in realmspace. The moon is "as written" inhabited by elves and humans that worship Leira. They have settlements on the surface but the people on Toril can't see them because of the illusion.
My homebrew adapts this. These "elves and humans" are another faction of the "ellefolk" from 2e's "Shadow Rift" for Ravenloft, also known as the Arak. Leira helped them escape the plane of shadow to Selune. Unlike normal Arak, something the elves of Faerun did has made them "breed true" unlike normal arak that can have random subraces of children of the arak (and the arak subraces are WILDLY different is look, size, etc... some are tiny, some medium, some small, some human like, some elven looking, some gnome looking, etc..).In addition the "automatic alignment by subrace" that was found with the Arak is different. So, tiny alven "ellefolk" that looks like a butterfly winged fairy and a small brag "ellefolk" that looks like a very pale muscular beardless dwarf could produce a child that's either an alven or a brag. Exactly how they reproduce might be very different from human methods too and might be fun to contemplate (considering a size medium creature can be born from a size tiny creature.... options like them growing in pods like flowers isn't out of the question). Normally Alven are CG and Brag are LN, but the child's alignment could run the gamut. All the "ellefolk"/Arak (and I call them "ellefolk" as their traditional name as opposed to Arak being the ones who escaped to Ravenloft) are also shapechangers that can change into various animals (brags become horses, alven become bees or butterflies, fir become hedgehogs, Muryan become ferrets, Portunes become turtles or asps, Powrie become small stinging insects, Shee become birds, sith become shadows, teg become foxes) and thus they may spy on visitors in a different form.
Back to the illusion... basically the reason for it would be manifold. First it acts as a cloak to hide these ellefolk from the forces of the plane of shadow that might have tried to find them. Secondarily, it filters the light of the sun, because sunlight hurts "ellefolk" (and there are whole communities beneath the surface of the moon, and the ellefolk will not allow anyone to enter these "mines"). Thirdly, it hides their true community from visitors, such that most visitors think that these are merely humans and elves on the moon. This "lie" that keeps them safe is why so many of them still follow Leira. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 23:16:45
Master Rupert,
Yeeeaaaahhh, I am definitely glad I disregarded that, of course, I wasn't aware of it, so ignorance was bliss. 500 feet above the clouds? That is nuts! Was there really no explanation beyond what you summarized as to why that was like that? Just except it and move on kind of a deal?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
It's a good thing I never got into it then. That is really...odd. Is it Leira being crazy or something? What was the justification for Selune being covered by an illusion?
Lurue only knows.
The book said the Leirans were really paranoid... But that's about it. They're an art-happy bunch that is inexplicably paranoid about an invasion from Toril. Aside from the illusion, nothing really suggests a connection to Leira (or explains why she's casting a big-ass illusion on someone else's home turf).
Also, the fact that there's no mention in Realmslore of the moon suddenly going from green to white implies that the Leirans have been there for all of recorded history.
Oh, and this illusion is 500 feet above the moon's surface -- but somehow conceals the entire atmosphere. Considering that most clouds are going to be higher than 500 feet, that's really an interesting trick.
The sheer number of issues just with this section of the book is part of why I simply disregard this lore. As I've mentioned previously, the Spelljammer lore that deals with specific settings either isn't backed up with the lore of those settings, or is actively contradicted by such -- like the fact that Krynnspace explicitly states the three moons of Krynn remain equidistant from each other, despite Dragonlance rules and lore discussing conjunctions of the moons.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 23:12:51
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
It's a good thing I never got into it then. That is really...odd. Is it Leira being crazy or something? What was the justification for Selune being covered by an illusion?
Lurue only knows.
The book said the Leirans were really paranoid... But that's about it. They're an art-happy bunch that is inexplicably paranoid about an invasion from Toril. Aside from the illusion, nothing really suggests a connection to Leira (or explains why she's casting a big-ass illusion on someone else's home turf).
Also, the fact that there's no mention in Realmslore of the moon suddenly going from green to white implies that the Leirans have been there for all of recorded history.
Oh, and this illusion is 500 feet above the moon's surface -- but somehow conceals the entire atmosphere. Considering that most clouds are going to be higher than 500 feet, that's really an interesting trick.
The sheer number of issues just with this section of the book is part of why I simply disregard this lore. As I've mentioned previously, the Spelljammer lore that deals with specific settings either isn't backed up with the lore of those settings, or is actively contradicted by such -- like the fact that Krynnspace explicitly states the three moons of Krynn remain equidistant from each other, despite Dragonlance rules and lore discussing conjunctions of the moons. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 22:55:53
Master Rupert,
It's a good thing I never got into it then. That is really...odd. Is it Leira being crazy or something? What was the justification for Selune being covered by an illusion?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
I did not know Selune was covered by an illusion. Where can I read more about that?
It's another of those problematic bits of lore from Realmspace
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 22:48:20
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I'm not sure there are any contradictions.
Observations need to be taken with caveats, seeing that:
1. Selune is completely covered with an illusion, so any pieces blasted off the moon surface could be invisible or otherwise anomalous, for a while.
2. Asteroids, unless incandescent (due to being very hot), are not visible while in the shadow (of either planet or moon). They would "suddenly appear" when sunlight hits them.
3. Contact between the inhabitants of Toril and Selune, thus ability to compare notes, is hindered by attitudes of the latter.
BTW (3) would be more understandable if this misunderstanding was caused by an unfortunate incident involving huge magical beam originated from Toril that explosively removed huge chunks out of Selune's surface.
I mean, it's the sort of thing that can leave a lasting impression, you know?
On #3 above, yeah, I was thinking along similar lines that could have coincided with the dragon laser of Westgate reference aiming at the king killer star. Now, that being said, what was POWERING the dragon laser. From 4e, we have references of individuals having knowledge of Abeir prior to the spellplague (rare mind you) AND possibly working with a concept called "worldfire". Just a thought, if we wanted the appearance of the new tears to be part of the dragon laser, possibly it was drawing on worldfire. Possibly even it was performed BY a dragon on Toril who was from Abeir or somesuch. Afterward, it may have kicked off a transfer between the worlds as a result. Lots of possibilities that CAN be done if we want to.... I think anyway. I'm just throwing this out to see if the possibilities CAN'T happen, and also since you just threw out what you did, it made me think more on the possibilities. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 18:25:21
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I'm not sure there are any contradictions.
Observations need to be taken with caveats, seeing that:
1. Selune is completely covered with an illusion, so any pieces blasted off the moon surface could be invisible or otherwise anomalous, for a while.
2. Asteroids, unless incandescent (due to being very hot), are not visible while in the shadow (of either planet or moon). They would "suddenly appear" when sunlight hits them.
3. Contact between the inhabitants of Toril and Selune, thus ability to compare notes, is hindered by attitudes of the latter.
BTW (3) would be more understandable if this misunderstanding was caused by an unfortunate incident involving huge magical beam originated from Toril that explosively removed huge chunks out of Selune's surface.
I mean, it's the sort of thing that can leave a lasting impression, you know?
I have issues with this.
If something covered by an illusion is removed from the illusion's field of effect, there's no reason it shouldn't immediately revert to its normal appearance.
And a tidal upheaval wouldn't be caused by blasting chunks off of something, if those chunks remain in the same area -- the overall mass is still the same.
There's also the fact that if a giant laser blasted chunks off the moon, people wouldn't see chunks suddenly popping up -- they'd see the laser, and the chunks drifting away from the source. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 18:21:06
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
I did not know Selune was covered by an illusion. Where can I read more about that?
It's another of those problematic bits of lore from Realmspace |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 16:50:25
Master TBeholder,
I did not know Selune was covered by an illusion. Where can I read more about that?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
I'm not sure there are any contradictions.
Observations need to be taken with caveats, seeing that:
1. Selune is completely covered with an illusion, so any pieces blasted off the moon surface could be invisible or otherwise anomalous, for a while.
2. Asteroids, unless incandescent (due to being very hot), are not visible while in the shadow (of either planet or moon). They would "suddenly appear" when sunlight hits them.
3. Contact between the inhabitants of Toril and Selune, thus ability to compare notes, is hindered by attitudes of the latter.
BTW (3) would be more understandable if this misunderstanding was caused by an unfortunate incident involving huge magical beam originated from Toril that explosively removed huge chunks out of Selune's surface.
I mean, it's the sort of thing that can leave a lasting impression, you know?
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 16:32:27
I'm not sure there are any contradictions.
Observations need to be taken with caveats, seeing that:
1. Selune is completely covered with an illusion, so any pieces blasted off the moon surface could be invisible or otherwise anomalous, for a while.
2. Asteroids, unless incandescent (due to being very hot), are not visible while in the shadow (of either planet or moon). They would "suddenly appear" when sunlight hits them.
3. Contact between the inhabitants of Toril and Selune, thus ability to compare notes, is hindered by attitudes of the latter.
BTW (3) would be more understandable if this misunderstanding was caused by an unfortunate incident involving huge magical beam originated from Toril that explosively removed huge chunks out of Selune's surface.
I mean, it's the sort of thing that can leave a lasting impression, you know? |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 05:14:10
Great Reader sleyvas,
I figured that was going to be the answer, but had hoped at the same time it wouldn't be.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
You make a good point about the Tears in response to Master Rupert.
However, regarding the continents...knowing that the Tears caused tidal waves, I tend to look at continents bouncing in and out as causing a heck of a lot more damage than that. The sea level drop and rise alone would be insanity. I don't know how that gets squared.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not familiar with the idea that those continents haven't always been on Toril, aside from the post-Spellplague stuff.
So far as I know, there is nothing in published Realmslore that backs up the Realmspace reference to the Tears just popping into existence. I know that a lot of the information in Realmspace, in regards to Toril, is either not backed up at all (like a castle disappearing from the Moonshaes), in Realmslore, or is contradicted in published Realmslore (like everything it says about Nimbral)... Though I'm a huge Spelljammer fan, I tend to discount any Spelljammer lore pertaining to a setting if the setting's own lore doesn't back it up -- there seems to have been no coordination between those design teams.
One thing I will stress on that realmspace reference. We don't have to accept it as "this is when the tears appeared"... we can accept it as "this is when some new tears appeared". It doesn't specifically state that there were no tears prior to that. That can be a workaround for accepting things like the earlier tearfall and the dragon laser and this as all possibly being true.
How does it get squared? Magic.... it solves a lot of unbelievable things.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 03:31:56
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
You make a good point about the Tears in response to Master Rupert.
However, regarding the continents...knowing that the Tears caused tidal waves, I tend to look at continents bouncing in and out as causing a heck of a lot more damage than that. The sea level drop and rise alone would be insanity. I don't know how that gets squared.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not familiar with the idea that those continents haven't always been on Toril, aside from the post-Spellplague stuff.
So far as I know, there is nothing in published Realmslore that backs up the Realmspace reference to the Tears just popping into existence. I know that a lot of the information in Realmspace, in regards to Toril, is either not backed up at all (like a castle disappearing from the Moonshaes), in Realmslore, or is contradicted in published Realmslore (like everything it says about Nimbral)... Though I'm a huge Spelljammer fan, I tend to discount any Spelljammer lore pertaining to a setting if the setting's own lore doesn't back it up -- there seems to have been no coordination between those design teams.
One thing I will stress on that realmspace reference. We don't have to accept it as "this is when the tears appeared"... we can accept it as "this is when some new tears appeared". It doesn't specifically state that there were no tears prior to that. That can be a workaround for accepting things like the earlier tearfall and the dragon laser and this as all possibly being true.
How does it get squared? Magic.... it solves a lot of unbelievable things. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 20:07:17
Great Reader sleyvas,
You make a good point about the Tears in response to Master Rupert.
However, regarding the continents...knowing that the Tears caused tidal waves, I tend to look at continents bouncing in and out as causing a heck of a lot more damage than that. The sea level drop and rise alone would be insanity. I don't know how that gets squared.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not familiar with the idea that those continents haven't always been on Toril, aside from the post-Spellplague stuff.
So far as I know, there is nothing in published Realmslore that backs up the Realmspace reference to the Tears just popping into existence. I know that a lot of the information in Realmspace, in regards to Toril, is either not backed up at all (like a castle disappearing from the Moonshaes), in Realmslore, or is contradicted in published Realmslore (like everything it says about Nimbral)... Though I'm a huge Spelljammer fan, I tend to discount any Spelljammer lore pertaining to a setting if the setting's own lore doesn't back it up -- there seems to have been no coordination between those design teams.
One thing I will stress on that realmspace reference. We don't have to accept it as "this is when the tears appeared"... we can accept it as "this is when some new tears appeared". It doesn't specifically state that there were no tears prior to that. That can be a workaround for accepting things like the earlier tearfall and the dragon laser and this as all possibly being true.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 20:25:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not familiar with the idea that those continents haven't always been on Toril, aside from the post-Spellplague stuff.
So far as I know, there is nothing in published Realmslore that backs up the Realmspace reference to the Tears just popping into existence. I know that a lot of the information in Realmspace, in regards to Toril, is either not backed up at all (like a castle disappearing from the Moonshaes), in Realmslore, or is contradicted in published Realmslore (like everything it says about Nimbral)... Though I'm a huge Spelljammer fan, I tend to discount any Spelljammer lore pertaining to a setting if the setting's own lore doesn't back it up -- there seems to have been no coordination between those design teams.
One thing I will stress on that realmspace reference. We don't have to accept it as "this is when the tears appeared"... we can accept it as "this is when some new tears appeared". It doesn't specifically state that there were no tears prior to that. That can be a workaround for accepting things like the earlier tearfall and the dragon laser and this as all possibly being true. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 16:02:00
I'm not familiar with the idea that those continents haven't always been on Toril, aside from the post-Spellplague stuff.
So far as I know, there is nothing in published Realmslore that backs up the Realmspace reference to the Tears just popping into existence. I know that a lot of the information in Realmspace, in regards to Toril, is either not backed up at all (like a castle disappearing from the Moonshaes), in Realmslore, or is contradicted in published Realmslore (like everything it says about Nimbral)... Though I'm a huge Spelljammer fan, I tend to discount any Spelljammer lore pertaining to a setting if the setting's own lore doesn't back it up -- there seems to have been no coordination between those design teams. |
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