| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 07:55:00
It occurred to me that Realmspace might be considered a “no fly zone” or be quarantined due to the inordinate number of magical/godly calamities.
Thoughts from others about why Spelljammers might avoid Realmspace? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 02 Jun 2020 : 02:55:44
If it flies, it's a skyship.
If it can travel through wildspace with relative safety, it's a spelljammer.
If it can house a jacuzzi, it's a harem seeker's dream boat.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Jun 2020 : 02:10:03
yeah, but what basically happened was Ed wrote a dragon article about generic skyships. That talked about the whole turtle hull thing. Then when the first shining south was written, they pretty much copied the article text. Which is fine, and is why they supposedly were all similar... but we can chalk it up to a batch of writer laziness. Then pretty much every picture we're given doesn't match the description until the 3rd edition shining south (and even that I'd have to check). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jun 2020 : 22:42:03
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
They were all individual. There was no such thing as the "standard skyship". People keep thinking of Netheril as a unified, organised realm. They were nothing of the kind. They were dysfunctionally governed, paranoid and secretive about everything, the interactions between High and Low Netheril were governed by complex treaties and pacts and at their core were a disjointed magocracy. Why would you therefore think that all skyships should be top notch, A-grade, hyper efficient constructs? It's not like every car you buy is a Ferrari.
-- George Krashos
Because we're speaking of Halruaa, and we were given more than one matching description of their skyships -- most notably, their ability to fly, which the Realms Master was never seen doing under its own power.
And I'm pretty sure no one accused Halruaan skyships of being any kind of efficient. It seems almost like they were designed to be inefficient, really.
I'm honestly wondering, at this point, if the Realms Master was originally intended to be a skyship, but then it got changed sometime before the comic first went to print. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 01 Jun 2020 : 22:08:25
They were all individual. There was no such thing as the "standard skyship". People keep thinking of Netheril as a unified, organised realm. They were nothing of the kind. They were dysfunctionally governed, paranoid and secretive about everything, the interactions between High and Low Netheril were governed by complex treaties and pacts and at their core were a disjointed magocracy. Why would you therefore think that all skyships should be top notch, A-grade, hyper efficient constructs? It's not like every car you buy is a Ferrari.
-- George Krashos |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 01 Jun 2020 : 20:21:05
Frankly, I don’t understand Skyships. With magic what it is, you would think they would be more like the flying ships of Alphatia from Mystara. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 May 2020 : 05:00:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Maybe the plates were built into the hull.
Ed said it was overloaded was the reason for its poor flying.
It would have been one thing if it had been shown flying poorly -- but it only flew when a god forced it to. Again, it couldn't even lift itself out of the water. |
| Stones Finder |
Posted - 28 May 2020 : 04:47:40
What's really odd, IIRC, is that in the storyline where the other (?) skyship appeared, after it blew up, Omen said something to the effect of "That's why I'll never use a skyship - they're deathtaps!" |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 May 2020 : 04:19:01
Maybe the plates were built into the hull.
Ed said it was overloaded was the reason for its poor flying. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 23:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Like a staff of the magi doesn’t look like another staff that is also a staff of the magi or a +1 long sword doesn’t look like another; no two skyships are going to look the same as uniquely created magic items. Just different is all.
I can get that the shape may be different -- but skyships are described as having plates on the hull for lifting. We never saw that with the Realms Master. Aside from having a wizard as the figurehead, the ship's appearance was the same as any standard sailing vessel.
Between that and its notable lack of flight, there was nothing to mark it as a skyship. Especially when an artifact had to be employed just to go straight up. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 22:29:45
Like a staff of the magi doesn’t look like another staff that is also a staff of the magi or a +1 long sword doesn’t look like another; no two skyships are going to look the same as uniquely created magic items. Just different is all. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 20:20:16
quote:
Originally posted by newbiedm
My campaign set in 5e is a continuation of the comics, I just started it, now the PCs are about to find the Realms Master floating outside Westgate's harbor as a derelict ship. Dwalimar is still alive--as a spirit living inside the damaged Astrolabe of Nimbral. Should be a fun campaign. Only other character making an appearance is Minder, although she is silent and "shut down", standing guard next to the Astrolabe.
I like this idea! If I wasn't so firmly wed to the pre-Spellplague era, I'd contemplate doing the same thing. |
| newbiedm |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 19:36:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll concede the point, then, though I would question why they opted to treat it like a normal ship in the comics, and not make it look like a skyship.
Especally when there was an issue where a Halruaan skyship showed up, with a blimp or something elevating it, and it looked nothing like the Master. But Ed's word is final here, so the Realms Master is a skyship.
My campaign set in 5e is a continuation of the comics, I just started it, now the PCs are about to find the Realms Master floating outside Westgate's harbor as a derelict ship. Dwalimar is still alive--as a spirit living inside the damaged Astrolabe of Nimbral. Should be a fun campaign. Only other character making an appearance is Minder, although she is silent and "shut down", standing guard next to the Astrolabe. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 19:27:30
I'll concede the point, then, though I would question why they opted to treat it like a normal ship in the comics, and not make it look or fly like a skyship. |
| newbiedm |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 17:44:26
Settled. Ed answered me on twitter when i asked him.
“ It's a proper skyship. Of the Halruaan sort (see my DRAGON article). Jeff and I discussed that, way back when.
It spent much of its time overloaded, though, so without the astrolabe it would glide downwards (crash landing if not steered to a suitable meadow or field).” |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 14:59:36
The thrice damnable thing did fly...that is the point.
Just because Omen didn’t make it fly everywhere and this flaunting its ability doesn’t mean it COULDN’T fly.
It is officially called a skyship numerous times. It is a skyship. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 05:33:38
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Agreed...they wrote it wrong.
Still a skyship.
So a ship that couldn't fly and has no resemblance to a skyship is still a skyship, because someone who couldn't be bothered to check the comics got it wrong? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 05:14:38
Agreed...they wrote it wrong.
Still a skyship. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 01:15:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Or simply the comic artist didn’t draw it correctly...
Still a skyship from all I’ve seen and read.
The only time it flew was when a god forced it to fly. It took recalibrating the Astrolabe of Nimbral just to be able to make it go straight up.
So it wasn't just the art, it was also the writing. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 May 2020 : 17:51:06
Or simply the comic artist didn’t draw it correctly...
Still a skyship from all I’ve seen and read. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 May 2020 : 01:27:42
quote:
Originally posted by newbiedm
fwiw, 3e's The Shining South refers to the Realms Master specifically as a skyship:
"It was eventually stolen by a particularly resourceful band
of adventurers led by the Halruaan wizard Dwalimar Omen and
taken back to his home nation. From there, it was installed on
the Halruaan skyship Realms Master and used by Omen and
several others to hunt down dangerous artifacts at the behest of
Netyarch Zalathorm"
I
Whoever wrote that clearly didn't bother to look at the comics. Like a lot of 3E stuff, prior lore was simply ignored. |
| newbiedm |
Posted - 26 May 2020 : 01:18:00
fwiw, 3e's The Shining South refers to the Realms Master specifically as a skyship:
"It was eventually stolen by a particularly resourceful band
of adventurers led by the Halruaan wizard Dwalimar Omen and
taken back to his home nation. From there, it was installed on
the Halruaan skyship Realms Master and used by Omen and
several others to hunt down dangerous artifacts at the behest of
Netyarch Zalathorm"
that said, it looked like a regular ship, more so when compared to a skyship that appeared in the comics in one issue, and actually flew. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 06 Feb 2020 : 04:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Usually yes. Assuming they see it coming and won't run straight into the next dragon. 
Outside atmosphere only few dragons are a problem.
In the air, it's not clear how it's different from extreme wind. The ship carries the bubble with it, but this doesn't prevent mixing air, invading spores, etc. It's one of ill-defined things in Spelljammer.
Things like wind should definitely be an issue; nothing except other spells would protect a ship from weather and air flow. Note also that almost every dragon is more maneuverable than almost any Spelljamming vessel (Maneuverability classes for creatures and ships are different scales). Dragons would definitely be dangerous from that point of view, even if a Spelljamming ship can outrun them.
That also doesn't take into account merchants (especially less ethical ones like the Zhents) who would want to get their hands on a helm, and would definitely track and ambush a vessel known to have a helm (and quickly showing up in port a port with gods known to take longer would be very suspicious). There are also lots of wizards around who might want to get their hands on such magic, and many of them have teleport spells, which could easily get them on board ship.
Since none of the FR material indicates that spelljammers disrupt commerce, I think it is more important to identify how that is the case, than think up reasons why SJ traffic would disrupt commerce.
As to the period of the Spellplague, it is definitely possible the natural portals were disabled for the duration, as they were during the Avatar Crisis. The Netherese had a spell that could completely seal a sphere, although there is no evidence it was used (and those powerful spells are no longer available), but it is possible that some element of them were rediscovered and used, if you want a reason to seal or partially seal Realmspace.
Jeff |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 04:33:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Usually yes. Assuming they see it coming and won't run straight into the next dragon.
Outside atmosphere only few dragons are a problem.
In the air, it's not clear how it's different from extreme wind. The ship carries the bubble with it, but this doesn't prevent mixing air, invading spores, etc. It's one of ill-defined things in Spelljammer. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 03:09:12
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well those ships are not going to get to Selûne. Though is interesting effect the higher a ship goes the less it can carry.
One could make if it was modified appropriately... The easiest (though not the cheapest!) modification would be to bolt a helm on it. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 01:05:12
Well those ships are not going to get to Selûne. Though is interesting effect the higher a ship goes the less it can carry. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 00:45:13
Don't forget the original Ed Greenwood article in Dragon #124. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 00:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship.
Issue 25 is where Labelas recreates the Realms Master. It no longer has the Astrolabe; but flies.
The Realms Master also flies at Helm before being destroyed because Labelas was trying to use it as a magical "spear" to fight through Helm.
I may be wrong; but looking at it...it seems to be a Skyship. I guess we could ask Jeff Grubb?
Yeah, a god was trying to use it as a weapon. That changes things. If it had been a standard Halruaan skyship, Helm would have casually stepped to one side and waved as it went by -- they're too slow to be used as weapons against anything that isn't immobile.
Labelas obviously modified the ship, like he'd already done with the crew.
I have to agree with Wooly. From the original Shining South we see that they are slow, unwieldy, have problems rising even above the mountains that surround their homeland, and they can't carry a lot. Still, they have a lot of them.
The Halruan skyships are famed all through the Shining South. Even Elminster has described such vessels in his writings. Skyships are not to be confused with ships capable of spelljamming, although it is known that one can be outfitted with a spelljamming helm.
<snip>
The ship is at the mercy of the winds. The leeward panels do allow it some control, so that it can run before the winds and not he buffeted by them.
<snip>
Obviously this is no safe and steady fighting platform, although mages may cast spells from its deck. It is a large and clumsy target in aerial combat (maneuverability class E). It has a great degree of variability in speed and stability due to the chance of the wind and the turbulence created by other aerial bodies. Nonetheless, it is
very effective in dropping solid missiles, flaming oil, or other things upon hostile forces.
A skyship has its greatest buoyancy near the ground. At an altitude of 100' a standard skyship has a cargo displacement of 10 to 15 tons, a fraction of what a sea-going vessel can lift. This drops as the vessel climbs, until at 3600 feet it can lift little more than its won weight, and that of the crew. A standard crew is 20 to 30 men. If the ship is operating with a short crew, it can carry a bit more cargo. Since the Walls of Halruaa are much higher than 3600', such ships can
only leave Halruaa through one of the mountain passes, by sea, or via the High Aluar. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 00:15:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Yeah, a spelljammer can outrun a dragon. It can't outfight one, but it could outrun one.
Thanks for saving me the checking. So, yeah, even if dragons were trying to rule the skies, its kind of hard to kill something that can outrun them. I don't see the people that would be piloting these ships being interested in fighting the dragon if they can simply go around them.
That does bring up an interesting idea though. Wouldn't it be interesting if some kind of "dragon detection" system were developed for ships (maybe simply a spell that can detect if a true dragon is within say a mile and a rough general direction corresponding to the 8 compass positions that might last for a while..... even something that works like an advance magic mouth where its cast and just has a larger detection range). Hell, someone may have developed such already within spelljammer and I just don't know about it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 02:23:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship.
Issue 25 is where Labelas recreates the Realms Master. It no longer has the Astrolabe; but flies.
The Realms Master also flies at Helm before being destroyed because Labelas was trying to use it as a magical "spear" to fight through Helm.
I may be wrong; but looking at it...it seems to be a Skyship. I guess we could ask Jeff Grubb?
Yeah, a god was trying to use it as a weapon. That changes things. If it had been a standard Halruaan skyship, Helm would have casually stepped to one side and waved as it went by -- they're too slow to be used as weapons against anything that isn't immobile.
Labelas obviously modified the ship, like he'd already done with the crew. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 01:31:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship.
Issue 25 is where Labelas recreates the Realms Master. It no longer has the Astrolabe; but flies.
The Realms Master also flies at Helm before being destroyed because Labelas was trying to use it as a magical "spear" to fight through Helm.
I may be wrong; but looking at it...it seems to be a Skyship. I guess we could ask Jeff Grubb? |
