| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chyron |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 13:25:39
I remember way back reading the original Spellfire and thinking it was an interesting ability and both a blessing and a curse for the character.
But as the chosen can wield the near equivalent Silverfire, I just began to think it was a bit much.
I recently read one of Mr. Greenwoods stories (Spin a Yarn 2003) on the WOTC site called "Only a Woman Can Take This Sort of Abuse", in which the Seven used it to destroy an intelligent weapon and humiliate Manshoon (of the Zhentarim). Story link; http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/spinyarn2003a
First, I would really like to know (not being fortunate enough to be able to attend any Gen Con events), what exactly is the Spin a Yarn session? Is it a storytelling session or a gaming session?
Second, in gaming terms if Mystra can have “chosen” who are given powers far above and beyond those of say clerics and paladins (or blackguards), etc. Would not the other deities (of at least equal power level of Mystra) create a from of Chosen of their own? I mean not all goodly deities have the same agenda as Mystra. At the very least shouldn’t there be a balancing equivalent among evil deities? Form the little I have read about AO it seems to me that balance among the deities and their pantheons is a must. I am sure there are some things I may have missed, but the Chosen and their Silverfire (among other powers) seem to vastly unbalance the realms. Why does Mystra alone have the ability to grant such (making her the overdeity of the pantheon by default)? Does anyone else feel this way or am I just a loon?
I mean Manshoon, (who is among the most powerful “villains” in my campaign) was basically made a laughing stock in the above mentioned story. Some of my group are “well read” in terms of game lore (novels, legends, etc) and they do a good job role-playing as I tie in events or NPC appearances, but when the major villains of the realms can’t even compete with the defenders they feel like “what’s the point”?
Even I “as I read about all the supposed Lords of Darkness and their master plans” begin to feel that there is not any real call for heroes when Faerun is threatened; just get the Seven together and they can handle it.
This may sound like whining, but honestly as a DM I am torn. I am a firm believer to try and use canon material from any/all sources when I can. Yet the obvious argument is “hey if you don’t like certain things, don’t use them”. I am curious to hear how other DMs handle Silverfire or The Chosen in their game. 
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| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 20:13:11
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
In terms of game use, many campaigns will never come into contact with a single chosen. For those that do, they should serve as plot devices to forward the storyline or simply as flavorful npc's and nothing more.
And it's my impression that that was Ed's intent, as well. 'Tis certainly how I'd use them. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 13:42:24
quote:
Then after new editions and countless expansions, Mr. Greenwood’s focus hero characters all exponentially increased in power, while the villains remained basically the same.
quote:
The Chosen are immortals, silverfire wielders, who seem to be able to move beyond the boundaries of normal game restrictions.
This points up another aspect of the Realms. In the Realms as Ed made her, *any* character potentially moves beyond the boundaries of normal game restrictions. Instead of out in the open, audited for players to reference (and prepare their PCs to face), high-level characters, good and evil, are mysterious as to what they can and can't do. Any mage of power has undocumented spells, wards, hanging spells, owed promises, wild talents, etc. From Dragon #110 to the latest 3E releases, we've seen detailed character writeups not because Ed thinks they're that useful, or complete, but through (real or perceived) reader demand. Remember the 1987 setting's table to determine if NPCs are really lower- or higher-level than listed? That's the unwritten preface to all published character stats.
And it bears repeating that the Chosen of Mystra aren't Ed's protagonists by his choice. They're intended for supporting roles.
Bear in mind, as well, that what was understood by 'game balance' in AD&D in the 1970s through 90s is not the 'game balance' of the new D&D; and that Ed doesn't subscribe to either but to balance in play through attention to the players (and hence the story and characters).
You also aren't grasping that there is far more evil, and it's up to far more, than the books will ever tell you. The published villains and organizations are *examples*. For a glimpse at a typical panorama, see FOR4 pp. 37-9. And that excludes the worldwalking manoeuvres and deceptions that folk of Faerűn rarely learn of. Try to see past the exposure the Chosen have in published material. They are simply part of a Zelaznyesque web of high-level cross-planar intrigue (including not a few traits such as the silver fire which are impressive but ultimately as much pieces to be fought over as decisive 'powers'). If you don't want character A present in your big event, they are present at another big event. The Realms is *massively plural*.
quote:
I do not have the exact quote at hand but I definitely got a feel that the design team had the awareness that something needs to be done in that area.
Not, I sincerely hope, in creating more Chosen of other gods. Retconning (some of) them back out is what I hope he was talking about. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 11:27:21
I cannot really answer why the Chosen of Mystra were made to be "so mighty," (my guess is that the said Chosen were overly developed by the game designers because that's the one thing they they could draw profusely from the existing literature due to Mr. Greenwood's novels - one edition led to the next, one exaggeration over the other, and then you have what you have now) but I can chime in here in reference to some words put forward by the current FR design team (Mr. Rich Baker I believe, on the WotC FR Boards, writing in reference to Chosen of other deities).
I believe Mr. Baker stated at some point that the question of other deities' Chosen would have to be explored in the future, that it was one of those things to do, an dusty spot requiring some cleaning. I do not have the exact quote at hand but I definitely got a feel that the design team had the awareness that something needs to be done in that area. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 09:28:10
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
I guess what I am asking is the real purpose for them in terms of game use? To put evil PC groups in their place when they get out of hand? If so then why would they not do the same for the Uber evils of Faerun too?
Have you read Hellgate Keep? That's one Uber evil that's been taken care of (mostly) -- and that wasn't even resolved by a chosen. There was the phaerun threat that was put down. The maulagrym threat has been thwarted a couple of times. They are busy people. They can't do everything. They need regular heroes to help -- just ask Danilo Thann or the Knights of Myth Drannor.
If your players feel that the chosen are adversaries to be defeated in order to "win the game" or deus ex machinas that will swoop down and "fix" everything the pc's have been working so hard on then the Chosen aren't being used properly in your game... or your players have the wrong impression.
In terms of game use, many campaigns will never come into contact with a single chosen. For those that do, they should serve as plot devices to forward the storyline or simply as flavorful npc's and nothing more.
Sarta |
| Chyron |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 08:29:37
George, Fireheart, and Farear,
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate the various insights. And now I have a better understanding of the Spin a Yarn concept. (I hope I can actually attend one, one day)
I guess from my own perspective, that thing that bothers me is that based from the original box set these characters were all normal D&D NPCs (albeit high-level ones). Then after new editions and countless expansions, Mr. Greenwood’s focus hero characters all exponentially increased in power, while the villains remained basically the same. Now my players like to quote they are all like Supeman with any kryptonite vulnerability. Raised and fed from 1st ed D&D rules, forums like Sage Advice and interviews with designers who always tried to promote “game balance”, I just don’t see that here. Even the NPC Shadow Weave users do not come close to balancing the abilities of a Silverfire user.
Originally, I had thought that the Magister was to be Mystra’s mortal representative, but it seems that the silverfire wielders have greatly reduced the significance of that office.
George, your first question: “Why should your PCs and their campaign (which you as DM have control over) have anything to do with the Chosen of Mystra and silverfire?” Well, they don’t. But in the course of my campaigns I like to build to a big event. Currently that event will be City of the Spider Queen, which deals directly with a weave corruption and a dales invasion. So with 3 of the Chosen sitting right in Shadowdale, how would at least one of them likely not be involved in such a large event?
Your second question: “If these evil groups are so weak and ineffectual, led by blunderers and overmatched and overpowered by the forces of good, why are they still present on the face of Toril?” I would love to ask this of the designers myself. Given the recent editions, evil seems hard pressed to me. I constantly find myself seeing flaws in scenarios (both novels and games) that seem to overlook (ignore?) what is written. Examples like the drow invasion of Waterdeep (Hordes of the Underdark), a similar invasion of the city by sea creatures in the book “Rising Tide”, and the “City of the Spider Queen” PnP adventure.
The Chosen are immortals, silverfire wielders, who seem to be able to move beyond the boundaries of normal game restrictions. Silverfire makes them not subject to magic and conversely at the same time not subject to anti-magic. They all qualify as quasi-deities (from Faiths and Pantheons) but they are not assigned a divine rank of 0, nor are they Liches. Nor are they like clerics or paladins. They are not really answerable to Mystra or likely to fall from grace in the way divine worshipers might. and it seems they would even put a major force like “Vecna” from Greyhawk to shame. So what is the reason for that? Is it to make the realms a goodly land where evil can never really gain he upper hand? A sort of Anti – Ravenloft if you will?
I guess what I am asking is the real purpose for them in terms of game use? To put evil PC groups in their place when they get out of hand? If so then why would they not do the same for the Uber evils of Faerun too?
Well anyway, enough of my entirely too long rant. Mostly I just wanted to know about the Spin a Yarn sessions and what other DMs felt about Silverfire and the Chosen.
Thanks again for your replies everyone. :)
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| Faraer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 16:54:43
Ed's confirmed that the Spin a Yarns aren't in-continuity (their plots, at least). They're an exercise in telling as wild and unlikely a story as possible.
As to Chosen of gods other than Mystra: Mystra's Chosen are, in part, instruments of her will, but they were created as a precaution to ensure the Weave's survival in case of her destruction, and a check on her great power by dividing some of it between other hosts. Writers other than Ed have inadvertantly or deliberately missed the point and given other gods Chosen in what Ed's described as an arms race. In any case, the Chosen of Mystra don't increase Mystra's power in the Realms, they just focus some of it on these handful of individuals instead of her clergy, shadowstaves, etc. The evil deities in particular would be far too paranoid and jealous of their power to give overmuch of it to any mortal.
As for 'just get the Seven together', 1. their prominence is greatly overstated in the fiction because of the popularity of those characters among TSR, WotC, and readers, 2. they rarely meet all together (see the last section of The Seven Sisters) because they all have heavy responsibilities (ruling realms and other day jobs, raising children, nurturing magic, fulfilling promises, living their lives), 3. there are *dozens* of major evil plots afoot at any one time. |
| Fireheart |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 14:56:06
Chyron,
Good morning! My understanding of Spin a Yarn is that it is a story telling session not a gaming session. If I understand it, Mr Greenwood basically starts a story...the audience then has the oppurtunity to input things that make the story it's own living thing.
I was also given to understand that the Spin-a-Yarn are not any way shape or form designed to be "canon,"; that it is a chance for Mr Greenwood and fans to have some silliness with the iconic character of Toril. (But that's just my understanding, I'm sure there are other scribes here more learned then I.)
As for using the Chosen in your game, I can agree with Mr Krashnos, it's all up to you. As a DM, I don't usually introduce my players to them. They are there, in whatever location they're supposed to be but I don't tend to use them as NPC's or even plot points. (My players may hear of them and if they go looking for say...Elminster...they're likly to find Lhaeo who will politely inform them that "The Mighty Mage Elminster is researching a spell and cannot be disturbed; if they would care to leave a message, I will be certain to deliver it." (Beeep!) Typically, I use rumours to show the Chosen handling other things that aren't directly effecting the PC's, that way the Chosen are still protecting the Realms, they just aren't anywhere where the PC's can use them.
~Fireheart |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 13:47:53
The only way I can answer your question Chyron is with another question. Why should your PCs and their campaign (which you as DM have control over) have anything to do with the Chosen of Mystra and silverfire?
Also, your viewpoint regarding the seeming 'weakness' of major evil power groups and/or NPCs is a long-standing one. Again, I'll pose another question to you. If these evil groups are so weak and ineffectual, led by blunderers and overmatched and overpowered by the forces of good, why are they still present on the face of Toril?
Quite simply, perception is very different from reality. Your style of campaign and your gamers' style of gaming will no doubt dictate the type of FR campaign you will end up with. If you and your PCs have a penchant for high level or epic play then you will have to work all the harder to come up with challenges for your gamers. This is true for all high level campaigns - not just FR ones. If you have low level or mid-level campaigns, then your control over what NPCs/power groups your party encounter is in your hands and similarly, the efficacy of the "bad guys" is also in your hands.
Sure, if your campaign revolves around the Zhentarim taking over the Dalelands, then you will have to come up with a credible reason(s) as to why that has come about. Including dealing with Chosen, Harpers, and other good groups of the Realms (who somehow always get blamed for stealing PC thunder ...) If you were playing D20 Modern and had a campaign set in Australia circa 2020 AD with the country invaded and controlled by Indonesia, again, you'd have to come up with the reasons why.
Back story, cause and effect and logical reasons as to the whys and wherefores are the backbone of any campaign. Your campaign can stick with canon and deal quite easily with phenomena such as the Chosen. Why should Storm Silverhand or Elminster go exploring Myth Drannor instead of your PCs when they know that their absence from Shadowdale may lead to an assault on that settlement? Why would Khelben (who has to oversee the Moonstars, deal with Waterdeep's security, make sure that one of the myriad irons he has in the fire isn't coming unstuck, et. al.) want to travel to the middle of the High Forest to explain why X has happened? Especially when X may have a very simple explanation and turn out to be a complete waste of time.
The Chosen are not the deux ex machina of the Realms. They are a tool to use to enhance gaming in the Realms. You control this tool. Use it wisely.
-- George Krashos
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