| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Regar Khorvaen |
Posted - 12 Dec 2019 : 21:51:48
Hello everybody,
This post has some SPOILERS about Baldur's Gate descent to Avernus campaign.
Acording to the Sword Coast campaig book, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (BBM) are reported as living gods. With churches et all.
But in Baldur's gate campaign BBM are reported as the Dead Three. Apparently they were killed during the TIme of Troubles as a punishment for betraying mega-god Ao.
SO... What's their official status? Dead? Alive? Not-quite-so? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 19 Dec 2019 : 01:10:51
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I'm pretty sure that if mortals can use long range telepathic communication, so can gods. On top of that, if they fear to have their messages deciphered, they could use some kind of code known only to their followers or whatever. Like it happens IRL.
Everything is better than bad communication if you have a goal and have to enact some kind of plan.
And there I see a big problem. Can you imagine having god as "operator" in your Realms? Any time hero wants to do a big action he would have constant hotline with his god saying "now go left, duck before trap. In second corridor move fast to the doors, they are open and in the room there are 3 armed orcs. Artifact I want is in the chest."
The same problem would be with any inconsistencies in church scripture - it would be immediately corrected.
There must be a reason why this is not happening. I do not have a good answer to that. I am just sure that gods do not communicate directly except for few rare situations (at least in my Realms).
About that lonely drow - imagine how happy would Lloth be if she can intercept such "help"... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Dec 2019 : 23:01:07
I'm pretty sure that if mortals can use long range telepathic communication, so can gods. On top of that, if they fear to have their messages deciphered, they could use some kind of code known only to their followers or whatever. Like it happens IRL.
Everything is better than bad communication if you have a goal and have to enact some kind of plan. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 17 Dec 2019 : 22:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Clarity of intent in communication with followers - I agree and that is something that I have been pondering for long time. There are two common examples in Realms. God either sends a enigmatic vision or appear physically and say it directly. Both are strange options and I have not found good answer yet. I am using enigmatic visions in my game when character uses Augury (2nd lvl spell) and more clear answer with stronger spells. That for me represents both better understanding of message and also better source (not all are answered directly by deity).
As for the heresies and stuff I think gods are not so picky about how do you worship them as long as you do and you do not cross major aspects of their ideal. Heresy is much bigger problem for the church as it take away their power. So I would differentiate between heresy and splinter church organizations.
Direct involvement of deity - I imagine gods similar to naval carriers in RL. All powers monitor where they are and any direct involvement means a major event that will be at least investigated by other powers or even directly opposed as they protect their interest. Even the movement of such vessel is a signal that provoke reactions (like exercises near Korea). You cannot just sent carrier to escort cargo ship around for those reasons. Most of the time all carriers are sitting in strategic position guarding your interests. If they left those positions you would be vulnerable in those areas.
So I can see god sending his minions to do many tasks for him, using his powers indirectly and using his church but any time he send avatar to help a person he not only make a big statement (painting this person as a prime target) but also leave her vulnerable after he leave as other powers will be interested in that person now.
If god went to person just to say something to her it would be even worse as this is clearly personal. That would be something like blackmailer's dream - I will show you somebody who if you poke I will definitely react...
I am all in for any indirect involvement of deity using his portfolio to change the situation. Instead of sending avatar he can change the weather, freeze the attacker, struck with lightning, ... This would make clear as to who did this without that much fuzz. It is still a sign but not so big. For example I had Jergal protect his priest from possession by stranded soul and he also broke his holy symbol. Priest understood this sign and made sure later that the stranded soul got sent where it belongs.
When speaking directly, other beings may be eavesdropping, and there are eyes and sensors everywhere.
God A diverting resources to send an avatar could be detected by God B, and God B might decide to do something bad while knowing where God A's avatars are currently occupied.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Dec 2019 : 15:48:12
Yeah, I wasn't talking about direct intervention in avatar form (though that can be nice in some cases; for example, there are situations when a drow feels lonely and lost and Eilitraee may send some sort of avatar-ish manifestation to be with them), but those things that help people in various ways using the god's portfolio. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 17 Dec 2019 : 14:12:41
Clarity of intent in communication with followers - I agree and that is something that I have been pondering for long time. There are two common examples in Realms. God either sends a enigmatic vision or appear physically and say it directly. Both are strange options and I have not found good answer yet. I am using enigmatic visions in my game when character uses Augury (2nd lvl spell) and more clear answer with stronger spells. That for me represents both better understanding of message and also better source (not all are answered directly by deity).
As for the heresies and stuff I think gods are not so picky about how do you worship them as long as you do and you do not cross major aspects of their ideal. Heresy is much bigger problem for the church as it take away their power. So I would differentiate between heresy and splinter church organizations.
Direct involvement of deity - I imagine gods similar to naval carriers in RL. All powers monitor where they are and any direct involvement means a major event that will be at least investigated by other powers or even directly opposed as they protect their interest. Even the movement of such vessel is a signal that provoke reactions (like exercises near Korea). You cannot just sent carrier to escort cargo ship around for those reasons. Most of the time all carriers are sitting in strategic position guarding your interests. If they left those positions you would be vulnerable in those areas.
So I can see god sending his minions to do many tasks for him, using his powers indirectly and using his church but any time he send avatar to help a person he not only make a big statement (painting this person as a prime target) but also leave her vulnerable after he leave as other powers will be interested in that person now.
If god went to person just to say something to her it would be even worse as this is clearly personal. That would be something like blackmailer's dream - I will show you somebody who if you poke I will definitely react...
I am all in for any indirect involvement of deity using his portfolio to change the situation. Instead of sending avatar he can change the weather, freeze the attacker, struck with lightning, ... This would make clear as to who did this without that much fuzz. It is still a sign but not so big. For example I had Jergal protect his priest from possession by stranded soul and he also broke his holy symbol. Priest understood this sign and made sure later that the stranded soul got sent where it belongs. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Dec 2019 : 18:01:14
I meant something different, not the god coming down and blowing things up (in fact, that's exactly what I advised against). For example, if you want to achieve something, clarity of communication with your followers is essential. Sending enigmatic visions or dreams to communicate is stupid. Just like puzzles to ward something are generally a very stupid idea (why would you put a system with the purpose to be solved to guard something?).
As another example, things like aiding a person in a bad situation definitely won't threaten the "cosmic balance", or the cold war balance, or anything, and there are gods who do that. Of coure, they can't do that themselves everytime, if only because they're not all-powerful or all-knowing, and there are times (especially for lesser deities) when they just can't act for a plethora of reasons, and for that, they have a clergy and stuff.
This kind of acts (that also strengthen the bond between a deity and their faith) is definitely not worldbreaking, and makes the deity an entity that has its own identity and goals and modus operandi.
To me, when it comes to religion in fiction, it's either that the gods are distant forces that have various myths floating around them (basically RW), a plethora of interpretations, priests ignoring the gods' assumed teachings etc... but nothing definite. OR they are definite, real entities. You can't have both. The reason is that, once you spell out that the gods are real and have goals that also involve mortals, you can't walk back and say that they are ever distant and do nothing but sending vague signs and stuff, because it makes no sense for someone that works to achieve something to do that. It's also hard to believe that a god who is their real own entity would be fine with their followers coming up with interpretations of their character and ideas that are harmful to the faith. That doesn't mean that heresies won't happen, but it means that the god won't just say "oh, ok", epecially when they can be reshaped by such heresies (I mean, they may be unaware of it at first, but once time passes, they're bound to notice and do something). Of course, I repeat, I don't mean the gods fighting battles in place of mortals, but the kind of stuff that I mentioned above.
In short, if you want the vague and mysterious approach to religion, you can't spell out who the gods are and what they want and even their personalities. You may only have myths and conjectures by mortals (like plenty of RW Mythology). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 16 Dec 2019 : 16:33:58
I cannot remember where it was but in one of the rulebooks Elminster talks about why powerful individuals do not save the world every time. Reason is that other powerful individuals have different goals and if you use your power to change something there will be some who will oppose you and some who use your focus to do what they want elsewhere. This keeps them all in eternal cold war of small acts that do not threaten your position. From time to time someone decides to come full force into something and others will stop him eventually to keep the balance.
You can very well use this even for higher powers as they also have many opponents of similar power and different agenda. So gods can do major things but most of the time they don't because of said reasons. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Dec 2019 : 17:29:33
^^^They're only claiming to be using this approach, but they don't hesitate to make gods appear in person, or still meddle in everything. This Bhaal/Myrkul/Bane thing is an example. So is Sernett spelling out that Lathander and Amaunator are different entities now, each taking a life on their own, so is Lolth still appearing in person in nvoels and stuff, or Mystra, or Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, or the Azuth plotline, with Asmodeus, Enlil and Azuth himelf not being just a total enigma. Of coure, the Mask one as well, and Tiamat and... I'm sure there are some I haven't thought of.
I think that there should be a midway between "gods do nothing ever except sending vague signs, and might as well not exist--aka Eberron's take on Religion" and "gods come down to drink cofee with people". Gods should have their own goals and motivations and M.O., and they should be involved, to a degree (it can't be otherwise, if they have a goal. What's the point of just sending enigmatic tuff if you want something done?) I also think gods should be definite entities, so their disappearance(and reapparance) should be felt by mortals. In the Sundering, it definitely was, on many levels, for many gods.
Beides the close relationhop between certain god and their followers is definitely a cool aspect, and shouldn't just go away. |
| The_Silversword |
Posted - 15 Dec 2019 : 15:07:08
I personally like the direction theyre taking the gods in 5e, the gods should be a total enigma for most mortals. Mortals should never be aware that god a is really just a manifestation of god b, or that this god killed that god, at best gods should be giving vague visions or the like. IMHO |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 15 Dec 2019 : 03:30:58
My advice is just to ignore the whole "the Dead Three are mortal avatars" and headcanon that Bane and his bros for life are still true divinities. |
| Regar Khorvaen |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 10:43:06
Thanks everybody for answering!
Glad to know my three favourite evil gods are back into the fray.
So as demigods, linked to Faerun, they are currently living in material forms? I think that needs some explanation.
Personaly I liked Cyric aproach. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". I think having the powerful Banite church having so many cisms was an inspired angle. It allowed to mix the players into the fray and even make interesting bed partners. Like helping the ortodox side to fight the reformist side while you persuaded the Mulmaster followers to stab the Zhentil Keep friends...
I read in Sword Coast guide that a Bhaalspawn appeared in Baldur's Gate. |
| Regar Khorvaen |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 10:37:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
It is all based on old story about how they became gods. One example is in Faiths&Avatars p.37 and Dead Three is because they took Jergal's reign over death.
Bane rule the living as ultimate tyrant, Myrkul rule dead and Bhaal rule over death (in between them).
I am not sure where was first use of this term "Dead Three" but this story (in game) is much older than ToT (about -200 DR).
|
| Regar Khorvaen |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 10:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
They are all alive and well. They all had contingency plans to revive, and all have used them (Bane earlier than the others).
However, currently they are not gods, just demigods. Seems they voluntarily gave up true godhood to be able to influence the mortal world (as Ao decreed no full gods can influence the world after the Second Sundering).
They can't influence... What that means, exactly? They can have priests or murder cults but they can't send avatars? Something like that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 05:10:28
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The designers are trying to fix a problem that's nonexistent.
And sadly, this is not a new thing for them. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 02:14:12
The point stands that godly meddling on the scale of avatar manifestations is unheard of in the post-2e Realms. The most was Bane being called by Szass, and even then he was just mildly annoyed.
The designers are trying to fix a problem that's nonexistent. |
| Renin |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 01:40:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I personally liked the gods of the 1e AD&D Forgotten Realms and hated it when they killed off Bane and friends to be replaced by Cyric.
Agreed. Cyric the human was detestable, annoying, and so poorly written and frustrating to read (from the Avatar Trilogy) that it just makes one puke a little in their mouth realizing he just came into so much power.
However, I looked on the interesting angles it did create- the,um, *strife* in the Bane church; convert to Cyric? Leave for another? Face death from Cyricists for their dead guy, or go along with it?
Add in the Baneson Xvim, and then we start getting church persecution and warfare, with the Keep stuck in the middle of all the machinations of the 3 groups.
Then Bane is back? Cyric's Book is read, destroying so much? I loved those campaign ideas and pivotal points.
Cyric still sucks though. ;) |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 00:45:58
The Dead Three name is like The Three Amigos, or K.I.S.S., or Legion of Doom.
On their current status, the explanation that I'm pushing is that the Dead Three are manifesting avatars in the form of mortal demigod-like beings, but maintain higher deity ranks outside of the mortal realms of Realmspace (FR setting's solar system).
Avatars don't have to be super strong and their power levels can be varied at the will of the deities projecting them.
That would square up their presence as demigods in the mortal realms being a choice, as well as Mystra's appearance in a post-Second Sundering novel; Ao making a decree that the gods are only allowed to send a single mortal demigod avatar into Realmspace at any given time, to minimize their meddling in the affairs of mortals and protect the Cosmic Balance of Realmspace from being disrupted when opposing gods inevitably clash.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 22:34:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.
That's just wrong. The Dead Three was something that started in Forgotten Realms Adventures I do believe. It was post ToT. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 21:32:18
It is all based on old story about how they became gods. One example is in Faiths&Avatars p.37 and Dead Three is because they took Jergal's reign over death.
Bane rule the living as ultimate tyrant, Myrkul rule dead and Bhaal rule over death (in between them).
I am not sure where was first use of this term "Dead Three" but this story (in game) is much older than ToT (about -200 DR). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 20:26:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.
Bane has nothing to do with death. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 19:49:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.
I haven’t found a single thing that refers to them as the Dead Three until after the ToT.
Where did you find a reference prior to the ToT? |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 19:46:42
Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 18:54:34
quote:
Originally posted by Regar Khorvaen
Hello everybody,
This post has some SPOILERS about Baldur's Gate descent to Avernus campaign.
Acording to the Sword Coast campaig book, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (BBM) are reported as living gods. With churches et all.
But in Baldur's gate campaign BBM are reported as the Dead Three. Apparently they were killed during the TIme of Troubles as a punishment for betraying mega-god Ao.
SO... What's their official status? Dead? Alive? Not-quite-so?
They're alive and demigods. The Dead Three is just a titloe they were given after they died in the ToT. They've returned since then (Bane in 1372; Myrkul and Bhaal during the Second Sundering, about one century later). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 17:34:18
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I personally liked the gods of the 1e AD&D Forgotten Realms and hated it when they killed off Bane and friends to be replaced by Cyric.
I mean, if Torm got to come back because he was "doing his job" by being a protector, then why didn't Bane get to come back immediately because he was "doing his job" by trying to become the ultimate tyrant?
Never made any sense to me...and even less now that I can look back on it with more experienced eyes.
Not that I have to worry about it...I haven't run a game in quite a while that got past the 1350s DR...
Bane was killed because he stole the Tablets...
At least I see ToT as godhunt on those two/three who created the problem. If somebody else got killed...bad and if he was useful he could get revived by Ao. In my game perpetrators were Bhaal and Myrkul so Bane was allowed to be revived (later) as well. Those two were exchanged for Cyric and Kelemvor.
For me personaly ToT was only a last thread of the problem that caused Ao to change the rules of godhood - gods deviated from their portfolios and manipulated worshipers instead of supporting them. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 17:08:57
AFAIK, the demigod thing has something to do with the new Baldur's Gate videogame. Perhaps they wanted killable gods or something. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 16:44:59
I personally liked the gods of the 1e AD&D Forgotten Realms and hated it when they killed off Bane and friends to be replaced by Cyric.
I mean, if Torm got to come back because he was "doing his job" by being a protector, then why didn't Bane get to come back immediately because he was "doing his job" by trying to become the ultimate tyrant?
Never made any sense to me...and even less now that I can look back on it with more experienced eyes.
Not that I have to worry about it...I haven't run a game in quite a while that got past the 1350s DR... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 16:20:54
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Bane returned in 3.5e.
The whole 'directly interfere with mankind' thing is kind of odd though. The most meddling Myrkul did as a god was appear beside open graves to troll mourners.
Really, when I think "meddles with mortals", the Dark Three don't exactly spring to mind. Mucking about on the Prime is Mystra's shtick, not Bane's.
Mystra didn't directly interfere with mortals. Her Chosen did.
Really, I don't get that whole "directly interfere with mankind" thing -- that really wasn't a gig any deity did. Given how nonsensical the whole thing is, I have to wonder if this is another one of WotC's "let's change something while not changing it, to keep everyone happy!" things.
It doesn't make sense for Bane to weaken himself to do something he never did before... So it's like WotC is trying to make them non-deities without killing them, thus keeping fans of the Dead Three happy while giving something to people -- like myself -- who preferred that the Dead Three stay dead. Like so much else since they launched 5E, they're going through all sorts of contortions to try to keep everything ambiguous so they don't alienate one side or another. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 13:02:29
Bane returned in 3.5e.
The whole 'directly interfere with mankind' thing is kind of odd though. The most meddling Myrkul did as a god was appear beside open graves to troll mourners.
Really, when I think "meddles with mortals", the Dark Three don't exactly spring to mind. Mucking about on the Prime is Mystra's shtick, not Bane's. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 12 Dec 2019 : 22:48:20
I thought they gave up a large part of their divinity so that they could directly interfere in the fate of mankind without repercussions from Ao?
Edit;: Zeromaru beet me to it - sorry! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Dec 2019 : 22:44:54
clarification, that's their nickname after they died in the ToT. |
