| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 04:36:25
I'm looking for anything that talks about the costs of buying property in Waterdeep.
Anything at all might help. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 21:17:48
It is very possible to tax everything except land. I did it for a city state of over 50,000 .
There is income tax on the farmers and prostitutes of 20 percent.
All the rest is collected in fees.
Business Fee, Weapon Fee, Citizen Fee, Gate Fee, Shelter Fee, Food and Drink Fee and of course the begging permit fee.
These do pay operational expenses of the city state.
The Lord also collect fines from law breakers, not counting collect tribute from ruled territories. Clearly not prefect tax system however it did fit the core expenses that D&D set fourth for every one to make living wage. Some of course could get much richer, the poor however tend to be those not working or in debt. |
| paintphob |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 19:31:39
Going back a bit, both FR1 and the City of Splendors box both have this to say for taxes
"At present, Waterdeep collects no annual taxes, but raises its revenues by the charging of fees..."
and lists the same fees as Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion.
Starting with the reign of Neverember, you have the citizen tax, which is based on the knocking on doors and counting heads. But that reads like every payee gets a writ saying that they have paid, not that the payment is linked to a location.
So it appears that Waterdeep does not have a property tax. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 19:29:15
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
OK, the file our DM provided us with is the aforementioned "Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion".
Sarteck - thank you for the info. Our Dm charged us 3gp/month for property tax. Either in the pdf above or made up. I think it is poor that if a manor is provided, there is no additional info on additional costs. Yet again another WotC decision to leave it up to the DM to figure out.
WotC can't cover everything, and their focus has long been on stuff players are going to do during the average session. Most players aren't going to worry about their character using the bathroom or paying any taxes, so WotC didn't bother covering any of that. 
However... I do have here, the words of Ed himself, lifted from the Twitter:
quote:
@twitcher1979
Is there an Income Tax in Waterdeep? If so, or even if not, what is a good average for such a thing? Thank you in advance for your time and for sharing your work with us all.
@TheEdVerse
Waterdeep's annual taxes (as opposed to fees, like the docking fees for ships, and annual business license fees): citizens belonging to guilds pay dues to the guild (and the guilds then pay a smaller "head tax" based on number of members to the Palace [city]), and there are realty taxes (in the past, the hated window tax [covered in a Wizards website online column that should still be up on the archive], and more recently a variable-amount tax based on how large your building is; landlords pay this (so renters pay indirectly, through their rents), but there's no income tax. (It IS better to live in the Realms rather than the real world! Yes, YES! ;} ). Avoiding charging income taxes is how busy mercantile trading centers avoid declining when nearby centers rise.
#Realmslore
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| maransreth |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 11:56:19
OK, the file our DM provided us with is the aforementioned "Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion".
Sarteck - thank you for the info. Our Dm charged us 3gp/month for property tax. Either in the pdf above or made up. I think it is poor that if a manor is provided, there is no additional info on additional costs. Yet again another WotC decision to leave it up to the DM to figure out. |
| Sarteck |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 10:26:03
Unfortunately, the only reference to taxes I can find in Dragon Heist are not, in fact, property taxes. They make reference to what citizens of Waterdeep pay to continue being citizens (i.e., a "citizen tax,"), but not what landlords pay in property tax. |
| maransreth |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 09:33:27
I know it is 5e, however, the Waterdeep Dragon Heist adventure does contain some information about this.
I was a player, so i dont know all the details, but after helping Volo we received the deed to Trollskull Manor and had to use a magister/magistrate to legally bind the property to our party.
We did the manor up and got it ready to use as a tavern and I know prices were quotes and we had to pay the guilds for various things. When we asked about taxes, etc. again a monthly price was quoted, however we had the first year paid for by Volo, so it was more a in the future thing to worry about.
Finally we were sent a pdf by our DM that contained information about Waterdeep laws, info and possibly taxes, etc. As I was working for the City Watch, on loan from Gauntlgrym, I never bothered reading the document. I know I have it in Messenger, so when I have time I will let you know the name of it.
Fun fact - Trollskull Alley. This alley is named in every Waterdeep map I own from 1e through to 3e, while most streets/alleys on said maps have not been named. It is only in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep that a reason is given to the Alley's name.
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| Sarteck |
Posted - 09 Jun 2020 : 07:20:22
Hello,
In a similar vein to what's been asked in this thread, I'm wondering about the price of property taxes in Waterdeep.
I plan on my players coming into an "inheritance" of sorts that will include ruined slums in the South Ward, so it's not the initial property cost that I need, but the amount of taxes they need to pay as landlords.
I was wondering how I should calculate a fair price for this. I don't need to get down to the nitty-gritty; I just want to get a baseline price so they can have an idea of what will be charged to them simply for owning the land.
I was directed here from 4chan's "Traditional Games" forum /5eg/ thread. They said that you guys would probably have a lot of info on the subject, and after easily finding this thread on a quick search, I'm pretty hopeful.
Thanks in advance! |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 08:22:02
Senior Scribe AJA,
Whew...that was the understatement of the year! haha
The economy is line line item 10 billion, 208 on the list of to do items for the Realms. It isn't even an after thought.
I've been slowly but surely developing economic models for different parts of the Realms, starting at smaller areas and working out. Beasts like Waterdeep with monetary policy, land usage, zoning ordinances, etc., just make it something that will likely be low on the list.
I think it's a fun project though. Brings some more life to the Realms in a subtle, but important way I feel.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Which led to yet another question: should I even bother to find out? I mean, how much would it change the game to have to keep track of that kind of wealth?
Should you bother? I'd say no; the generic D&D economy breaks even harder at higher levels than it does at lower. For something as abstract/astronomical as that the easiest answer is just "as much / as little as you need them to for the purposes of the story you're trying to tell." All noble lords take their morning swim in Scrooge McDuck-style coin-pools, except for the one who just hired the PCs to go and retrieve [plot macguffin] from [dungeon or ruin] because his House is in sudden dire financial straits.
It would also be impossible to codify as anything other than a momentary snapshot in time, as coinage is constantly moving, in and out of trade, real estate deals, and swapped around for high-ticket items like magic and quarter-million-gold-piece gemstones.
But if you do still want to try to nail down the numbers (both liquid and otherwise), here are two passages that illustrate the sheer absurdity you'd be dealing with;
First, in Ed's replies on becoming nobility in Waterdeep here at Candlekeep and also printed in Power of Faerūn ("Becoming Noble In Waterdeep," under "Achieving Nobility") the examples he gives of the Phull and Zulpair families include "entire caverns full of already-mined rubies" and "they bought up nigh all of North Ward between them and then gave it away, property by property" (I'm not going to count how many buildings are in "nigh all of North Ward" and then attempt to multiply that by Steven's numbers above, but I'm pretty sure it would come out to quite an astronomical amount).
And then there's Ed's short story "Nothing But Trouble" in Dragon Magazine #238, where it is said that House Brossfeather owes Mirt the Moneylender "rather more gold pieces than what Waterdhavian nobles called a 'thousand thousand.'"
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Gold is not looking like a good medium of exchange in Faerun.
Well, when you get to those heights, gold is not the medium of exchange; things like gems, magic, property, deeds of nobility and first-born virgin daughters/sons all take precedence.
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| Barastir |
Posted - 23 Dec 2019 : 10:14:24
As for the coin and weight, that's why I'd use more trade bars and gems for the richer.  |
| AJA |
Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 00:16:04
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Which led to yet another question: should I even bother to find out? I mean, how much would it change the game to have to keep track of that kind of wealth?
Should you bother? I'd say no; the generic D&D economy breaks even harder at higher levels than it does at lower. For something as abstract/astronomical as that the easiest answer is just "as much / as little as you need them to for the purposes of the story you're trying to tell." All noble lords take their morning swim in Scrooge McDuck-style coin-pools, except for the one who just hired the PCs to go and retrieve [plot macguffin] from [dungeon or ruin] because his House is in sudden dire financial straits.
It would also be impossible to codify as anything other than a momentary snapshot in time, as coinage is constantly moving, in and out of trade, real estate deals, and swapped around for high-ticket items like magic and quarter-million-gold-piece gemstones.
But if you do still want to try to nail down the numbers (both liquid and otherwise), here are two passages that illustrate the sheer absurdity you'd be dealing with;
First, in Ed's replies on becoming nobility in Waterdeep here at Candlekeep and also printed in Power of Faerūn ("Becoming Noble In Waterdeep," under "Achieving Nobility") the examples he gives of the Phull and Zulpair families include "entire caverns full of already-mined rubies" and "they bought up nigh all of North Ward between them and then gave it away, property by property" (I'm not going to count how many buildings are in "nigh all of North Ward" and then attempt to multiply that by Steven's numbers above, but I'm pretty sure it would come out to quite an astronomical amount).
And then there's Ed's short story "Nothing But Trouble" in Dragon Magazine #238, where it is said that House Brossfeather owes Mirt the Moneylender "rather more gold pieces than what Waterdhavian nobles called a 'thousand thousand.'"
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Gold is not looking like a good medium of exchange in Faerun.
Well, when you get to those heights, gold is not the medium of exchange; things like gems, magic, property, deeds of nobility and first-born virgin daughters/sons all take precedence.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 23:05:44
This scroll got me to thinking:
Just how much coin do some of these rich Waterdeep folk have anyway?!
I mean, I remember reading about one of them having millions of gold pieces in property; but there is no real hard line on how much money these people have.
Which led to yet another question: should I even bother to find out? I mean, how much would it change the game to have to keep track of that kind of wealth?
If we went by the AD&D coin/weight system, having a million gold pieces (only) in hard cash would weigh 50 tons. If we use the more realistic weight of 50 coins to the pound instead of 10, we still come up with 1,000,000 gold pieces weighing 10 tons!
On earth we have that at a price of US$1,250 per troy ounce, reached on 16 August 2017, one ton of gold has a value of approximately US$40.2 million.
Gold is not looking like a good medium of exchange in Faerun. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Dec 2019 : 19:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
That's certainly getting out of Dodge; running Phlan to Waterdeep!
Yeah, he fled Phlan for Melvaunt and caught a ship to Mulmaster. From there took ship to Sembia then across to the Western Heartlands and then up to Waterdeep.
It was a long trek to say the least...but he felt it was worth it because he wanted to adventure in Waterdeep anyway I guess.
So ended the campaign in Phlan though! lol |
| Renin |
Posted - 11 Dec 2019 : 18:23:04
That's certainly getting out of Dodge; running Phlan to Waterdeep! |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Dec 2019 : 17:46:01
I started this thread because my son's assassin has relocated (read fled) to Waterdeep in 1357 DR from the recovering town of Phlan.
He went into the Cadorna Textile House on his own and recovered the Cadorna treasures there...and didn't want to give them back; so he went far away and fenced the treasures.
Now he has a decent pile of loot and is wanting to buy himself a house in Waterdeep to use as a base before exploring Undermountain. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 10 Dec 2019 : 17:33:09
New buildings in Waterdeep are really expensive. I'm glad my characters live in Neverwinter... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Dec 2019 : 15:50:46
Thanks AJA!
So, to quote Mr. Schend:
quote:
Here's a rough guess, and individual DMs can adjust as desired to fit the monetary standards of their own games. The prices immediately below are those for living space, not businesses. Yes, few of the city's current natives could afford to buy new buildings (or even old buildings) had they not been purchased ages ago and kept in the family, only having to worry about taxes. This is one of the main reasons why Waterdeep gets rebuilt exactly as before whenever tragedy strikes--no one is willing to give up the prime real estate except those who can afford to buy better...
Class D Buildings: 1,000 gp per 18' square lot/building site + 750 gp/floor of building built (new) or 500 gp/floor when purchasing a building.
Class C: 2,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 1,500 gp/floor (new) or 1,000 gp/floor.
Class B: 4,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 2,400 gp/floor (new) or 2,000 gp/floor.
Class A: 10,000 gp per 50' square lot/site + 7,500 gp/floor (new) or 5,000 gp/floor.
These ratings are also adjusted by any changes or additions made to the Representative Floor Plans in City of Splendors, any expensive materials used, etc. For these, add trade charges for the labor (see Guild prices on Building and Stone). If the building has a business or trade use, fees come from the respective guilds (about 5% of lot costs + guild membership fees) and the City (an additional 2% based off lot costs), payable at the Palace.
All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.
Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price
If any side of the building is......
On a main avenue (pavement): +25% to total price after ward adjustment
On a secondary avenue (cobblestones): +10% to total price after ward adjustment
On a lesser avenue (corduroy/logs): +5% to total price after ward adjustment
On a minor avenue (dirt road): No change to price
Yes, this makes real estate in Waterdeep horrendously expensive, but that's life in the biggest city in the North and one of Toril's greatest cities ever.....
Steven Schend
FR Senior Designer
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| AJA |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 17:41:55
There is also Steven Schend's old "rough guess" from the 2E era;
http://web.archive.org/web/20060227223029/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ss-buildings.htm
(archive.org link, so you'll probably have to copy-paste it manually)
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| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 17:01:28
The man himself has answered. No Guilds govern the real state business, so I guess will be a normal transaction.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1204081503845654529?s=19 |
| Cosmar |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 06:33:08
A DM might want to tweak prices based on the location, but the 3.5 supplement Cityscape has buying and renting prices. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 04:19:41
I would check the older sources for that lore Dalor. If you have, then either make it up, or check out that 5E source that Zeromaru mentioned. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 03:13:42
Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion. It's a pdf you can get at DM's Guild, and it's a fragment of Dragon Heist (so a 5e product). In Volo's own words, is an update to his "Volo's Guide to Waterdeep". |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 02:41:29
Which book exactly? Im looking in Volos Guide to Waterdeep on page 11 and see nothing about this. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 02:21:36
Page 11, in the topic about "Guilds and Guild Laws". It says that, for instance, if you want to build something in Neverwinter, you just need to purchase the land, then hire workers and just build your new house or whatever. But in Waterdeep you have to ask a lot of guilds for stuff.
So, I guess this also applies to already built buildings. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 06:30:33
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If you have access to Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion, the topic is explained there. IIRC, you need a lot of permissions from various Guilds to get a property.
Do you have a page number perhaps? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 05:19:55
If you have access to Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion, the topic is explained there. IIRC, you need a lot of permissions from various Guilds to get a property. |
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