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https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437251124378185734 https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437279686061699078 https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437285368278265857 https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437610283158097924

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Sep 13 2021

@RpgMatch

I just wrote an epic Reddit post on Waterdeep real estate prices and why Volo gave away Trollskull Manor away in Dragonheist.

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially if your name is @ChrisPerkinsDnD or @TheEdVerse

https://www.reddit.com/r/WaterdeepDragonHeist/comments/pn1xyw/waterdeep_real_estate_prices_why_volo_gave/

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@TheEdVerse

Great thread!

Yes, Waterdeep has annual realty taxes.

See my Twitter answers for Feb 20/20: “The nobles ignored that, so the Lords paid out of city coffers, and added it to the taxes of the two noble houses (which is, sadly, standard procedure in the city; nobles, like anyone else, who don't pay taxes in full get property seized in lieu).”

And for Apr 25/20, re. 1375 DR: “Buildings in Waterdeep didn't have numerical addresses then. (They did have "roll numbers" in the Palace tax records and floorplan registry.)”

And for Apr 29/90: “The city provides a subsidy in the form of a per-head daily ‘credit’ against temple taxes (temples are buildings, and attract a realty tax like all other city properties) that in almost all cases wipes out annual taxes and leaves most temples in the black (yes, in such situations they do receive coins or more often trade-bars from the Palace coffers).”

And (same reply thread, Apr 29/20): “The city also licenses (approves of) construction work, wines and other consumables, and the operating fitnesses of coaches, wagons, and carriages (not handcarts) to maintain public safety. It also steps in to pay for emergency repairs when roof deterioration or some other cause threatens to result in the collapse of a private building (seizing the property if the owner won’t pay or can’t be found, and working out a slow-repayment-over-time deal, otherwise).”

And on May 8/20: “a selection of scribes to quickly copy something, draw up a contract or trade agreement in quadruplicate (a copy to each party, plus a temple copy for the temple holding the money, plus a tax-record-remittance copy for the Palace).”

And on August 9/20, re. privileges of noble houses of Waterdeep: “certain tax deferrals in return for specific investments in civic works programs.”

Your construction costs for Waterdhavian buildings (twice the average base of most other places) are spot-on. Plus building permit costs, which rise substantially if a street has to be blocked off for any length of time (you’re inconveniencing not just neighbours, but traffic flow and therefore commerce in the city).

(The same inflated prices also apply in cities where space is at a premium due to lack of room for expansion [or expansion within the city walls], or where guilds are strong and therefore rates are high, and in cities that have always been expensive, like Athkatla.)

Your taxes for North Ward are too low: it’s equal to Castle Ward, not 5 percent less, and rises above that “equal” in the first two rows of city blocks (heading east) immediately adjacent to Sea Ward.

And back taxes owed is EXACTLY why Volo gave Trollskull Manor away.

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@RpgMatch

Can you confirm that the property tax rate in Waterdeep is ~1% of the property price per year? It's .88% in NYC, but 2.5% in the Flemish region of Brussels.

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@TheEdVerse

Nope. You're applying a flat formula across a city that, like all real-world cities, has grown over the years. Most real-world cities have the same disparities that exist in Waterdeep: taxes vary from place to place within a city, and rates also vary with social class (political clout); i.e. the nobles, AND temples, AND guilds get themselves tax breaks, and wheeler-dealer wealthy individuals broker deals with the Palace (just as in real life): I give you this land for civic purposes if you'll give me a low rate on yon property over there. In Waterdeep, the annual realty tax ("property tax") rate tends to be lower than 1 percent of the property price; Waterdeep doesn't have "mill rates," it has set taxes per property that get reviewed by the Palace (and always raised) on about a twenty-year cycle. (And the above brokering comes into play to win yourself delays in reassessment.) Waterdeep has always had a "flee south to warmer climes for the winter" problem that it has attempted to soften by keeping realty taxes low (as it has other sources of revenue like the gate taxes, docking fees, permit fees, etc.).

You can use a percentage of purchase price rate as a VERY rough guide to estimating probable taxes, but don't make the mistake of thinking the city calculates taxes that way.

It's always perilous to apply modern real-world ways of doing things to the Realms. And just a brief glance at real-world cities of any longevity (London, Paris, Rome) will reveal that as years pass, their taxation systems change radically (and are inconsistent).

For years, I've worked in public libraries, and run D&D mini-campaigns as library programs. Once I ran for five middle-aged, conservative female librarians who wanted NO bloodshed, no monsters, and no magic.

So I gave them a Waterdeep campaign that was Jane Austen-like "social whirl" on one level (daughters of ambitious guildmasters trying to break into the nobility, or at least become social equals with the weakest, poorest nobles), and on the other: turn Daddy's guild money, not quite keeping pace with his 9)ambitions, into large fortunes by shrewd property investments (buy, sell, flip, reno, rent out, etc.), and impress Daddy so much that he lets you behave like a full guild member or more, because you understand finance and social nuance better than he does. They loved it, and as a result, we delved into (and I detailed) the byzantine property valuations, tax system, and tax dodges of Waterdeep.

And I inspired two of them to try becoming real estate magnates in real life. One had a disastrous time, but the other 11)left her library job behind for wealth and a big mansion in Woodbridge and a trophy husband.

Ah, they grow up so fast... ;}

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@VentureSatchel

Truly inspiring! I love a good bit of socioeconomics in my RPGs. Perhaps why I'm looking to play the Spreadsheet Simulator that is Traveller5.

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@TheEdVerse

Just as it's possible to play LORDS OF WATERDEEP as an entirely "builder" game, outcompeting each other without open conflict (just don't use the mandatory quests cards), playing merchants competing in a law-and-order environment that prevents knifings can make for a fascinating game without PC combat. That has just as much tension and competition, and far more CHARACTER acting and bluffing, and players using their wits, than rolling of dice to decide one's fate. :}

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@DFW_DM_Monty

Yep that’s being printed out and added to my City of Splendors Box Set. Very well done! One question, does Waterdeep have an Assessment Review Board that I can protest the Assessor’s value of my property?

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@TheEdVerse

It has an Office of the Civic Treasury in the Palace with a seen-it-all desk clerk (lady in her 60s, face like a basset hound: Thraea) out front, tax collectors with bodyguards coming and going, and 3 overworked assessors in offices piled high with ledgers and notes.

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Originally posted by maransreth


OK, the file our DM provided us with is the aforementioned "Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion".

Sarteck - thank you for the info. Our Dm charged us 3gp/month for property tax. Either in the pdf above or made up. I think it is poor that if a manor is provided, there is no additional info on additional costs. Yet again another WotC decision to leave it up to the DM to figure out.

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@twitcher1979
Is there an Income Tax in Waterdeep? If so, or even if not, what is a good average for such a thing? Thank you in advance for your time and for sharing your work with us all.


@TheEdVerse
Waterdeep's annual taxes (as opposed to fees, like the docking fees for ships, and annual business license fees): citizens belonging to guilds pay dues to the guild (and the guilds then pay a smaller "head tax" based on number of members to the Palace [city]), and there are realty taxes (in the past, the hated window tax [covered in a Wizards website online column that should still be up on the archive], and more recently a variable-amount tax based on how large your building is; landlords pay this (so renters pay indirectly, through their rents), but there's no income tax. (It IS better to live in the Realms rather than the real world! Yes, YES! ;} ). Avoiding charging income taxes is how busy mercantile trading centers avoid declining when nearby centers rise.
#Realmslore

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Originally posted by AJA

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Which led to yet another question: should I even bother to find out? I mean, how much would it change the game to have to keep track of that kind of wealth?

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Should you bother? I'd say no; the generic D&D economy breaks even harder at higher levels than it does at lower. For something as abstract/astronomical as that the easiest answer is just "as much / as little as you need them to for the purposes of the story you're trying to tell." All noble lords take their morning swim in Scrooge McDuck-style coin-pools, except for the one who just hired the PCs to go and retrieve [plot macguffin] from [dungeon or ruin] because his House is in sudden dire financial straits.

It would also be impossible to codify as anything other than a momentary snapshot in time, as coinage is constantly moving, in and out of trade, real estate deals, and swapped around for high-ticket items like magic and quarter-million-gold-piece gemstones.



But if you do still want to try to nail down the numbers (both liquid and otherwise), here are two passages that illustrate the sheer absurdity you'd be dealing with;

First, in Ed's replies on becoming nobility in Waterdeep here at Candlekeep and also printed in Power of Faerûn ("Becoming Noble In Waterdeep," under "Achieving Nobility") the examples he gives of the Phull and Zulpair families include "entire caverns full of already-mined rubies" and "they bought up nigh all of North Ward between them – and then gave it away, property by property" (I'm not going to count how many buildings are in "nigh all of North Ward" and then attempt to multiply that by Steven's numbers above, but I'm pretty sure it would come out to quite an astronomical amount).

And then there's Ed's short story "Nothing But Trouble" in Dragon Magazine #238, where it is said that House Brossfeather owes Mirt the Moneylender "rather more gold pieces than what Waterdhavian nobles called a 'thousand thousand.'"

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Gold is not looking like a good medium of exchange in Faerun.

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Well, when you get to those heights, gold is not the medium of exchange; things like gems, magic, property, deeds of nobility and first-born virgin daughters/sons all take precedence.

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Which led to yet another question: should I even bother to find out? I mean, how much would it change the game to have to keep track of that kind of wealth?

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Gold is not looking like a good medium of exchange in Faerun.

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Originally posted by Renin

That's certainly getting out of Dodge; running Phlan to Waterdeep!

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Here's a rough guess, and individual DMs can adjust as desired to fit the monetary standards of their own games. The prices immediately below are those for living space, not businesses. Yes, few of the city's current natives could afford to buy new buildings (or even old buildings) had they not been purchased ages ago and kept in the family, only having to worry about taxes. This is one of the main reasons why Waterdeep gets rebuilt exactly as before whenever tragedy strikes--no one is willing to give up the prime real estate except those who can afford to buy better...

Class D Buildings: 1,000 gp per 18' square lot/building site + 750 gp/floor of building built (new) or 500 gp/floor when purchasing a building.

Class C: 2,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 1,500 gp/floor (new) or 1,000 gp/floor.

Class B: 4,000 gp per 30' square lot/site + 2,400 gp/floor (new) or 2,000 gp/floor.

Class A: 10,000 gp per 50' square lot/site + 7,500 gp/floor (new) or 5,000 gp/floor.

These ratings are also adjusted by any changes or additions made to the Representative Floor Plans in City of Splendors, any expensive materials used, etc. For these, add trade charges for the labor (see Guild prices on Building and Stone). If the building has a business or trade use, fees come from the respective guilds (about 5% of lot costs + guild membership fees) and the City (an additional 2% based off lot costs), payable at the Palace.

All of these fees come together and are finally adjusted by their placement.

Dock Ward No change to price
South Ward +2% to total price
Trades Ward +5% to total price
Castle Ward +10% to total price if south of the Castle
Castle Ward +20% if north of the Castle
North Ward +25% to total price
Sea Ward +40% to total price

If any side of the building is......

On a main avenue (pavement): +25% to total price after ward adjustment
On a secondary avenue (cobblestones): +10% to total price after ward adjustment
On a lesser avenue (corduroy/logs): +5% to total price after ward adjustment
On a minor avenue (dirt road): No change to price

Yes, this makes real estate in Waterdeep horrendously expensive, but that's life in the biggest city in the North and one of Toril's greatest cities ever.....

Steven Schend
FR Senior Designer

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

If you have access to Volo's Waterdeep Enchiridion, the topic is explained there. IIRC, you need a lot of permissions from various Guilds to get a property.

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