| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 09:39:00
While reading through an old 1st Edition AD&D product OP1 - Tales Of The Outer Planes, I came across an adventure called "Castle at the Edge of Time," by Christopher Mortika. It features Myrmeen Lhal, as mayor of Arabel, a "new" (not metioned anywhere else to my knowledge) Zhentarim agent named Lady Cheodot.
There is also a major battle in the hells where Tyr makes an appearance leading a celestial army.
This was published back in 1988 when TSR was still in Lake Geneva :)...
Hope someone enjoys this little found bit of lost lore. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 23:23:39
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
It's possible that Eric and George came up with much of the lore regarding Aryvandaar that you are interpreting.
I know and so far it works great for getting more details from them :-) But this may never reach their ears or they could see the trap... |
| Barastir |
Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 12:44:30
I know FR Tyr was based on the Deities and Demigods' one, I just don't know if they were the same at the time, or different - albeit similar - entities. The book seens to mention the Norse god, that's what I pointed out, and I think they were not the same even in later books, like in D&D 3.5 (Norse Tyr not being blind, for example, in addition to this difference in focus on warfare). |
| BadLuckBugbear |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 20:09:21
FR Tyr is drawn from the D&DG entry for Tyr in the Norse Mythos section.
Greenwood notes in his 1981 article, 'Down to Earth Divinity', that he removed Tyr's association with warfare but retained the idea of force used to make or uphold justice.
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 19:20:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
(...)
There is also a major battle in the hells where Tyr makes an appearance leading a celestial army.
(...)
As for Myrmeen Lhal, OK, but I wonder if this is FR Tyr or the Norse one (I think so, for he is escorted by valkyries). Dunno if Tyr was part of the Realms pantheon, or if they were one and the same at the time this book was released. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 01:33:58
I think the clearest indicator that the Vyshaan were mad was their unleashing of the Killing Storm High Magic on Miyeritar. Pure and utter madness.
As for Uvaeren, the descriptors relating to their rulers in Cormanthyr let you know what a peaceful, bastion of learning place it was.
— George Krashos |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 19:53:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I think you underestimate the corruption in Aryvandaar.
First house Vyshaan was not mad, but under influence of Malkizid.
While they fell under the influence of Malkizid, they were definitely mad.
Cormanthyr, page 23:
"The Fifth Crown War lasted only 200 years before the madness of the Vyshaan compelled even their most fervent followers to abandon them before all the elves lay dead at their hands."
"Others point to the gold High Mages of Aryvandaar, their political and familial connections with the now-recognizably power-mad Vyshaantar clan, and their greater number and greater powers."
Cormanthyr, page 106:
"The First Proclamation was to oust the corrupt and power-mad ruling clan Vyshaan from Aryvandaar, and the Fifth Crown War erupted as the Vyshaan resisted the Court#146;s ruling."
They later fell under the influence of Malkizid, but he was not the original bad seed.
Champions of Ruin, page 155:
"He was a secret patron of the Vyshaanti overlords of Aryvandaar, teaching them many secrets of powerful magic and encouraging their aggression against the other elven realms of the First Flowering."
(Note the use of "a secret patron" not "the secret patron".)
I believe the original bad seed for Clan Vyshaan is a different entity, but more about that another time.
quote:
Also note that during whole Crown Wars elves were united under Aryvandaar until the very end at -9000. The mad Vyshaan king Giilvas started to act like that (in lore i have) only after he was betrayed by his gods and his own people and even then he trusted his allies and family (found lore saying -9900 he was increasingly-crazed).
There were certainly folks who were not united under Aryvandaar before the reign of Gilvas.
Cormanthyr, page 25:
"It grew from the efforts of one gold elf clan and two moon elf clans. Formerly of Aryvandaar, these clans (along with four other gold clans and two moon clans) originally fled that conflicted realm during the Third Crown War."
I agree that Giilvas hit the pinnacle of madness among the Vyshaan, but I think the above shows they were increasingly mad over time.
Moreover, there's nothing to indicate that Aryvandaaran culture was monolithic. It probably appeared monolithic from an external perspective, but internally I think it's far more natural to assume there were degrees of dissent.
quote:
"It took 200 years to finally defeat them with the power of all other elven kingdoms with Corellion's mandate and support (after 800 years of contemplation about Crown Wars). House Vyshaan ruled Aryvandaar for 6000 years and was even chosen to settle Evermeet. Most of the elves who started First Crown Wars should not even be alive after 3000 years."
I'm not sure what you're arguing here.
quote:
Similar situation with Uvaeren - not only there are examples of their dark works who nobody knew much about
What examples are you referring to?
We don't know much about Uvaeren other than what's in Cormanthyr and Blackstaff. The former has lots of great details on pages 83-84. The latter talks about meditative Uvaerenni lore-crystals. It also talks about Ulair the Silent, Keeper of Uvaeren's secrets, and ties the Incanistaeum to the secrets of Uvaeren. None of this suggests an evil or power-hungry realm.
quote:
(drow from Twisted Tower were certainly interested later on)
The drow presence in Cormanthor can be traced to Wendonai. (See Lost Empires of Faerun, page 54.) If they were interested in the lost lore of Uvaeran, that doesn't necessarily imply it was evil. It might simply have been powerful.
"After the fall of the Ilythiiri, Wendonai acted as advisor, tutor, and occasionally consort to the Matron Mothers of the most powerful drow families. His greatest success resulted in the Dark Court Slaughter, an attack by duergar and drow against the Elven Court around the year –4400 DR. But his efforts to grow the Land under Shadow cost him the favor of Lolth in –2549 DR, since the Spider Queen detested the idea of drow returning to the Realms Above."
quote:
there are also mentions of horrors (Trio Nefarious) released later from Uvaeren ruins
OK, I may be forgetting something here, but this doesn't sound right. From Grand History of the Realms, page 37, and Cormanthyr, pages 34-35:
"–1200 DR
Numerous settlements and many more elf patrols fall before a trio of nycaloths rampaging through the forest of Cormanthor. Rumors say jealous Netherese archwizards summoned and sent the yugoloths into the Elven Woods merely
to test what magics they had to array against Netheril. After three months of cat-and-mouse games and a climactic battle within the streets of Cormanthyr, the elves subdued the nycaloths. Coronal Miirphys, the High Mages, and a number of priests use High Magic to imprison the trio, who had become known as Khovi#769;Anilessa (the “Trio Nefarious”)."
quote:
but most important - why do you think "somebody" sent a star against them to annihilate Uvaeren?
It could well have been because they were a force for light, not darkness ...
... we don't know yet, but it's a great question.
--Eric |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 14:52:58
It's possible that Eric and George came up with much of the lore regarding Aryvandaar that you are interpreting. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 11:45:23
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
So I would classify the houses of Aryvandaar as follows:
Madness: House Vyshaan
Active Conspirators: Mostly wiped out
Passive Conspirators: "Followed orders." Includes House Dlardrageth and House Starym.
Uninvolved: ???
Passive Rejectors: Refused to live under Vyshaan rule. Left for other locations. Includes six houses that went to Desertsmouth Mountains and 3 houses that went to Uvaeren.
Rebels: Active rebels. Mostly wiped out. Includes House Duirsar.
Uvaeren was the exact opposite of Aryvandaar. It was founded by houses that loved knowledge and scholarship. IMO, this would never have included House Dlardrageth.
There were many houses that moved to Arcorar "just in time" to avoid the end of the Fifth Crown War. House Dlardrageth was an example. They moved to Arcorar but didn't really join any of the emerging nations there. Instead they spiraled down into their own form of depravity.
--Eric
I think you underestimate the corruption in Aryvandaar.
First house Vyshaan was not mad, but under influence of Malkizid. Also note that during whole Crown Wars elves were united under Aryvandaar until the very end at -9000. The mad Vyshaan king Giilvas started to act like that (in lore i have) only after he was betrayed by his gods and his own people and even then he trusted his allies and family (found lore saying -9900 he was increasingly-crazed). It took 200 years to finally defeat them with the power of all other elven kingdoms with Corellion's mandate and support (after 800 years of contemplation about Crown Wars). House Vyshaan ruled Aryvandaar for 6000 years and was even chosen to settle Evermeet. Most of the elves who started First Crown Wars should not even be alive after 3000 years.
Similar situation with Uvaeren - not only there are examples of their dark works who nobody knew much about (drow from Twisted Tower were certainly interested later on), there are also mentions of horrors (Trio Nefarious) released later from Uvaeren ruins but most important - why do you think "somebody" sent a star against them to annihilate Uvaeren? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 02:25:03
quote:
So you see them as members of Jhyrrenstar instead. For me they are a perfect fit for Uvaeren. Who knows what they did there for 3000 years...
Also it took a lot of time to catch them.
-8200 founding of Uvaeren (Jhyrrenstar and Siluvanede founded -8400)
-5000 Dlardrageth (already demon blooded) flee to Siluvanede.
-4700 Earlann founded
-4500 Seven Citadel Wars started
-4300 Seven Citadel Wars - most of the Fey'ri killed or imprisoned
700 years and conflict called "fifth crown war" until they cached them...
There is also a list of houses that Sarya wants revenge upon: Houses of Durothil, Moonflower, Swordstar, Irithyl, and Starym (Hellgate Keep p.10)
So I would classify the houses of Aryvandaar as follows:
Madness: House Vyshaan
Active Conspirators: Aided and abetted House Vyshaan during the Crown Wars. Mostly wiped out
Passive Conspirators: "Followed orders." Includes House Dlardrageth and House Starym.
Uninvolved: Unclear which houses might have fallen in this category.
Passive Rejectors: Refused to live under Vyshaan rule. Left for other locations. Includes three houses that went to Desertsmouth Mountains to form Ilodhar.
Rebels: Active rebels. Mostly wiped out. One surviving example is House Duirsar.
Uvaeren was the exact opposite of Aryvandaar. It was founded by houses that loved knowledge and scholarship and had fled the fall of Ilodhar. IMO, this would never have included House Dlardrageth.
There were many houses that moved to Arcorar "just in time" to avoid the end of the Fifth Crown War. House Dlardrageth was an example. They moved to Arcorar but didn't really join any of the emerging nations there. Instead they spiraled down into their own form of depravity.
See Cormanthyr, page 25, for details on Ilodhar.
--Eric |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 01:02:13
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I agree that House Dlardrageth is from Aryvandaar, but I don't think they are one of those nine. In part, that is because of Hellgate Keep, page 9, and Cormanthyr, page 83. (Although I think the latter's reference to 3,500 is a mistake and should read 5,500 if you assume the primacy of the original source, which is Hellgate Keep.) Hellgate Keep, page 9, says “within a few decades” between the start of breeding and the discovery of these dealings in -5,000 DR. However, it needs to be enough for 2 generations, so I went with -5,090 DR.
Here's what I have about the backstory about House Dlardrageth, most of which comes from a detailed reading of the Last Mythal Trilogy. Note the name Arcanrathnar is my invention. I considered using a balor name from the AD&D1 DMG that hadn't been used yet, but I have reasons for not doing so.
Flight of House Dlardrageth
During the Wandering Years that followed the Fifth Crown War, many elves, including gold elves from Aryvandaar, began settling in the eastern forest of Arcorar near the Elven Court. The nobles of House Dlardrageth, one of the great houses of Aryvandaar, were prominent early settlers of the vast, unclaimed eastern woodlands. In time, they established a fortified villa in the depths of Arcorar known as Dlardrageth Keep. (By chance this villa lay within the boundaries of what would eventually become Myth Drannor, long after the fall of House Dlardrageth.)
For generations, the leaders of House Dlardrageth sought to strengthen their family and race so as to eventually reclaim the lost glory of Aryvandaar. Prominent among them was High Mage Saelethil Dlardrageth, who forged a selukiira (High Loregem) known as the Nightstar of Saelethil in order to master the Last Mythal of Aryvandaar. Saelethil’s ambitions were cut short by Ithraides, Grand Mage of Jhyrrenstar and High Spell-Star of Arcorar, who slew Saelethil with the backing of Jhyrrenstar’s coronal and claimed the Nightstar in the name of the crown. Ithraides locked the Nightstar in an extradimensional space that could only be reached by a spell of his devising from the depths of his tower in Cormanthor. Ithraides then split the spell to unlock the location of the Nightstar into three parts, each inscribed in a different telkiira (Lore Gems), which he then gave to his three High Mage apprentices: Kaeledhin of Eaerlann, Sanathar of Jhyrrenstar, and Morthil of Yuireshanyaar (later Grand Mage of Sildëyuir).
In –5,090 DR, Lady Xiiltharra Dlardrageth, then matriarch of House Dlardrageth, convinced her family that breeding with demons would strengthen their house’s bloodline. She summoned a balor named Arcanrathnar to serve as her consort, while several of her kin summoned lesser demons for similar purposes. Many of the children born of such unions were physically weaker than the average elf, but they later proved to have more magical powers as their demonic legacy. Within a few decades, Xiiltharra had given birth to five elven daemonfey, and they in turn had consorted with demons to produce a second generation numbering twenty-four strong. Her kin had produced additional daemonfey as well.
When the elves of Arcorar discovered the horrid dealings of House Dlardrageth, they mustered a host of soldiers, mages, and priests against them. Grand Mage Ithraides and the High Mages of Arcorar banished their summoned demons and raised a mythal around Dlardrageth Keep, trapping the Dlardrageth nobles within their home, where they all destroyed each other within a few centuries. However, seven members of House Dlardrageth—Xiiltharra’s youngest daughter Sarya, Sarya’s four sons and one daughter, and Sarya’s nephew (her twin brother’s son)—escaped the villa undetected and fled to their secret redoubt amidst the ruins of Aryvandaar (Modern: Ascal’s Horn), where they began to plot their revenge against the Fair Folk of Arcorar, with dire consequences for the three elven realms of the High Forest that continue to ripple through elven history even today.
So you see them as members of Jhyrrenstar instead. For me they are a perfect fit for Uvaeren. Who knows what they did there for 3000 years...
Also it took a lot of time to catch them.
-8200 founding of Uvaeren (Jhyrrenstar and Siluvanede founded -8400)
-5000 Dlardrageth (already demon blooded) flee to Siluvanede.
-4700 Earlann founded
-4500 Seven Citadel Wars started
-4300 Seven Citadel Wars - most of the Fey'ri killed or imprisoned
700 years and conflict called "fifth crown war" until they cached them...
There is also a list of houses that Sarya wants revenge upon: Houses of Durothil, Moonflower, Swordstar, Irithyl, and Starym (Hellgate Keep p.10) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 23:42:37
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Of course they serve it there... the question is what kind of liver is it? Chicken, beef, pork, dragon, unicorn, umber hulk, duergar?
Be cause you asked ...
Ed says: "Good old fashioned chicken, augmented with duck and goose when available. (Their recipes don't work when done with red meat.)"
Essential Realmslore, right there, folks!
Hmmm, guess if I want to try umber hulk liver I'll have to go hunting myself.... assuming of course that they have such an organ. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 22:48:59
I've long wondered about the idea of fey'ri not tied to the Dlardrageth family or their allies.
Maybe a family went that route, but then backed out, and were thus missed when the main fey'ri host was imprisoned. Or maybe some members simply hid...
Or perhaps centuries later, another elven family found lore about House Dlardrageth, decided it was a good idea, and quietly did some selective breeding of their own... |
| Baltas |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 22:20:02
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Seems like there are more than a few references to FR in the very old material, i wonder how many of them the likes of George and Eric know about and have been mining for lore nuggets for years (although the priest Eller, widely known across the realms and claiming to have slain the goddess Kali seems of dubious quality or use today - might have to make Kali a fiend of some sort)
I would suggest the Marilith Kalistes (appearing in Pool of Darkness, curiously worshiped by a group of Drow), or another Marilith Kaliva, or possibly a Marilith using a Kali based name (seems popular among Mariliths), impersonating Kali. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 21:57:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I have also found a nugget recently that I was unaware before.
During Crown Wars 9 houses of Aryvandaar left East to evade conflict with house Vyshan. Six of those settled where Anauria/Asram will be centuries later and three continued to Arcorar and founded Uvaeren (-8200). As we all know Uvaeren was destroyed by falling star (in -5000) but interesting was that on the same date is that "Survivors of House Dlardrageth, a clan of demon-blooded sun elves, flee from Arcorar (Cormanthor) to Siluvanede".
Meaning Dlardrageth was probably a noble sun elven house of Aryvandaar and also one of the main "keepers of elven knowledge" in Cormanthor.
I agree that House Dlardrageth is from Aryvandaar, but I don't think they are one of those nine. In part, that is because of Hellgate Keep, page 9, and Cormanthyr, page 83. (Although I think the latter's reference to 3,500 is a mistake and should read 5,500 if you assume the primacy of the original source, which is Hellgate Keep.) Hellgate Keep, page 9, says “within a few decades” between the start of breeding and the discovery of these dealings in -5,000 DR. However, it needs to be enough for 2 generations, so I went with -5,090 DR.
Here's what I have about the backstory about House Dlardrageth, most of which comes from a detailed reading of the Last Mythal Trilogy. Note the name Arcanrathnar is my invention. I considered using a balor name from the AD&D1 DMG that hadn't been used yet, but I have reasons for not doing so.
Flight of House Dlardrageth
During the Wandering Years that followed the Fifth Crown War, many elves, including gold elves from Aryvandaar, began settling in the eastern forest of Arcorar near the Elven Court. The nobles of House Dlardrageth, one of the great houses of Aryvandaar, were prominent early settlers of the vast, unclaimed eastern woodlands. In time, they established a fortified villa in the depths of Arcorar known as Dlardrageth Keep. (By chance this villa lay within the boundaries of what would eventually become Myth Drannor, long after the fall of House Dlardrageth.)
For generations, the leaders of House Dlardrageth sought to strengthen their family and race so as to eventually reclaim the lost glory of Aryvandaar. Prominent among them was High Mage Saelethil Dlardrageth, who forged a selukiira (High Loregem) known as the Nightstar of Saelethil in order to master the Last Mythal of Aryvandaar. Saelethil’s ambitions were cut short by Ithraides, Grand Mage of Jhyrrenstar and High Spell-Star of Arcorar, who slew Saelethil with the backing of Jhyrrenstar’s coronal and claimed the Nightstar in the name of the crown. Ithraides locked the Nightstar in an extradimensional space that could only be reached by a spell of his devising from the depths of his tower in Cormanthor. Ithraides then split the spell to unlock the location of the Nightstar into three parts, each inscribed in a different telkiira (Lore Gems), which he then gave to his three High Mage apprentices: Kaeledhin of Eaerlann, Sanathar of Jhyrrenstar, and Morthil of Yuireshanyaar (later Grand Mage of Sildëyuir).
In –5,090 DR, Lady Xiiltharra Dlardrageth, then matriarch of House Dlardrageth, convinced her family that breeding with demons would strengthen their house’s bloodline. She summoned a balor named Arcanrathnar to serve as her consort, while several of her kin summoned lesser demons for similar purposes. Many of the children born of such unions were physically weaker than the average elf, but they later proved to have more magical powers as their demonic legacy. Within a few decades, Xiiltharra had given birth to five elven daemonfey, and they in turn had consorted with demons to produce a second generation numbering twenty-four strong. Her kin had produced additional daemonfey as well.
When the elves of Arcorar discovered the horrid dealings of House Dlardrageth, they mustered a host of soldiers, mages, and priests against them. Grand Mage Ithraides and the High Mages of Arcorar banished their summoned demons and raised a mythal around Dlardrageth Keep, trapping the Dlardrageth nobles within their home, where they all destroyed each other within a few centuries. However, seven members of House Dlardrageth—Xiiltharra’s youngest daughter Sarya, Sarya’s four sons and one daughter, and Sarya’s nephew (her twin brother’s son)—escaped the villa undetected and fled to their secret redoubt amidst the ruins of Aryvandaar (Modern: Ascal’s Horn), where they began to plot their revenge against the Fair Folk of Arcorar, with dire consequences for the three elven realms of the High Forest that continue to ripple through elven history even today.
|
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 21:43:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Of course they serve it there... the question is what kind of liver is it? Chicken, beef, pork, dragon, unicorn, umber hulk, duergar?
Be cause you asked ...
Ed says: "Good old fashioned chicken, augmented with duck and goose when available. (Their recipes don't work when done with red meat.)"
Essential Realmslore, right there, folks! |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 16:28:43
I have also found a nugget recently that I was unaware before.
During Crown Wars 9 houses of Aryvandaar left East to evade conflict with house Vyshan. Six of those settled where Anauria/Asram will be centuries later and three continued to Arcorar and founded Uvaeren (-8200). As we all know Uvaeren was destroyed by falling star (in -5000) but interesting was that on the same date is that "Survivors of House Dlardrageth, a clan of demon-blooded sun elves, flee from Arcorar (Cormanthor) to Siluvanede".
Meaning Dlardrageth was probably a noble sun elven house of Aryvandaar and also one of the main "keepers of elven knowledge" in Cormanthor.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 14:10:48
Seems like there are more than a few references to FR in the very old material, i wonder how many of them the likes of George and Eric know about and have been mining for lore nuggets for years (although the priest Eller, widely known across the realms and claiming to have slain the goddess Kali seems of dubious quality or use today - might have to make Kali a fiend of some sort) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 13:17:42
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
What about Dragon #351? Chopped liver? (Well, they do probably serve it there.)
:-)
Of course they serve it there... the question is what kind of liver is it? Chicken, beef, pork, dragon, unicorn, umber hulk, duergar?
But that's an interesting set of articles (because the article on Athas also references the world serpent inn, as does the articles on Krynn, ravenloft, etc... ). |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 11:18:47
What about Dragon #351? Chopped liver? (Well, they do probably serve it there.)
:-) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 11:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
While reading through an old 1st Edition AD&D product OP1 - Tales Of The Outer Planes, I came across an adventure called "Castle at the Edge of Time," by Christopher Mortika. It features Myrmeen Lhal, as mayor of Arabel, a "new" (not metioned anywhere else to my knowledge) Zhentarim agent named Lady Cheodot.
There is also a major battle in the hells where Tyr makes an appearance leading a celestial army.
This was published back in 1988 when TSR was still in Lake Geneva :)...
Hope someone enjoys this little found bit of lost lore.
I've never read that one, myself, but I picked it up a long time ago, because of its connection to the Realms. The old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover has a blurb about the World Serpent Inn, and references OP1.
There was also a web enhancement for the 3E Manual of the Planes that covered the World Serpent Inn. |
|
|
