| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 06 Oct 2019 : 21:49:54
I would like to ask for your help fellow scribes in summarizing possible situations surrounding mainly two major blackouts of Magic in FR - Karse Folly and ToT.
My quest is about finding out possibly all important magical effects that might have been hindered or disabled by magic blackout. For me there is very little of aftermath for such major failure. I would like to keep theories about those possible failures on second track so anybody can decide how it should work in their realms. Important is that said magical effect worked before such event regardless of its failure or even in spite of it.
Obvious examples are enclaves of Netheril but what about Mythals or lesser enchantments around the world? Any lich dying? Effects that hold something in/out?
We could say something like - blackout was only local around Netheril and all items and spells are not fed directly from Weave - but I would like to explore this option so keep an open mind :-) |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 23:59:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The mythallars obviously failed, during Karsus's Epic Fail.
But that was the only real blackout -- the other times, magic was simply unreliable.
Personally, as I see it, magic was may have gone offline at that time, but with the obvious exception of the mythallars, other ongoing magical effects either faded out too slowly to be noticed, or had enough of a reserve to be sustained, and in either case, came back online very quickly.
The reason I say this is because of things like magical prisons and such. The fey'ri and the Trio Nefarious all stayed locked away, despite the fact that magic was offline. So either their imprisoning magics had some sort of UPS to sustain them, or the effects faded too slowly for those beings to awaken and get free.
But truly, it could be that SOME mythallars didn't get affected. Maybe they had something that could effectively work as a UPS (storing some of the magic locally, and working from said stored magic). Maybe they had an alternative backup "energy source". Not saying it happened, just saying that even the things we'd be like "that was all out the door" wasn't necessarily true.
I don't know of any lore supporting the idea that some mythallars weren't affected, save for those that were elsewhere, like Shade and Opus.
There is not enough of a gray area there for me to play in.
Agreed, but I also wouldn't freak if someone … just as a for instance, wrote up that a Netherese mage stole a Udoxias from Jhaamdath and put it "inline" with a "converter" and thus maybe there was some enclave (possibly run by someone who was interested in enchantment magic and psionics both). It very well could have been something where maybe even some Jhaamdathi stole a netherese enclave and their psions and wizards (because I'm not convinced that Jhaamdath didn't have wizards) might have been working to reverse engineer a mythallar. Granted, the Netherese were powerful, but I'm not convinced that they could roll over Jhaamdath either, and they might not KNOW that an archwizard lost his enclave because they were more worried about infighting than working together. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 05:03:58
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The mythallars obviously failed, during Karsus's Epic Fail.
But that was the only real blackout -- the other times, magic was simply unreliable.
Personally, as I see it, magic was may have gone offline at that time, but with the obvious exception of the mythallars, other ongoing magical effects either faded out too slowly to be noticed, or had enough of a reserve to be sustained, and in either case, came back online very quickly.
The reason I say this is because of things like magical prisons and such. The fey'ri and the Trio Nefarious all stayed locked away, despite the fact that magic was offline. So either their imprisoning magics had some sort of UPS to sustain them, or the effects faded too slowly for those beings to awaken and get free.
But truly, it could be that SOME mythallars didn't get affected. Maybe they had something that could effectively work as a UPS (storing some of the magic locally, and working from said stored magic). Maybe they had an alternative backup "energy source". Not saying it happened, just saying that even the things we'd be like "that was all out the door" wasn't necessarily true.
I don't know of any lore supporting the idea that some mythallars weren't affected, save for those that were elsewhere, like Shade and Opus.
There is not enough of a gray area there for me to play in. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 00:56:02
Well, I don't know how detailed are these articles, as I didn't did them, however there we have it:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Karsus's_Folly
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles
I remember from the Avatar novels that the magic also went nuts during the Time of Troubles, altering huge swaths of landscape and the like. Not as bizarre as the plaguelands, but these places were definitely crazy. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 09 Oct 2019 : 00:22:05
OK so there is some lore indicating magical items should be able to hold their magic even without magic :-)
Anything else there like details about those other times Mystra went offline? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 23:49:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The mythallars obviously failed, during Karsus's Epic Fail.
But that was the only real blackout -- the other times, magic was simply unreliable.
Personally, as I see it, magic was may have gone offline at that time, but with the obvious exception of the mythallars, other ongoing magical effects either faded out too slowly to be noticed, or had enough of a reserve to be sustained, and in either case, came back online very quickly.
The reason I say this is because of things like magical prisons and such. The fey'ri and the Trio Nefarious all stayed locked away, despite the fact that magic was offline. So either their imprisoning magics had some sort of UPS to sustain them, or the effects faded too slowly for those beings to awaken and get free.
But truly, it could be that SOME mythallars didn't get affected. Maybe they had something that could effectively work as a UPS (storing some of the magic locally, and working from said stored magic). Maybe they had an alternative backup "energy source". Not saying it happened, just saying that even the things we'd be like "that was all out the door" wasn't necessarily true. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 22:46:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
So magic items held their imbued magic and divine casters can receive their magic from different sources than gods.
Yes, wands of magic missile or wands of Fireball or a staff of healing would still be able to function properly despite the drastic change to the Realms, weave or no weave. These were highly sought out and valuable items during this dark period.
As for clerics, in 3rd Edition divine casters did not require Gods or deity worship to receive powers. It pretty specifically spells out that clerics can pick two domains.
From the SRD: "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. "
This is also true for 3rd Edition Paladins, that they don't require worship of a Deity but to the Lawful Good ideals.
Of course, the Forgotten Realms are different and its stated throughout that divine casters must pick a patron in order to receive divine spells. Thus, 4th Edition isn't different in this regard that the Core rules of divine prayers can be gained from being ordained as a Cleric yet in the Forgotten Realms, they'd still need a deity to worship.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Cultural changes during Spellplague are more of a tabula rasa style so I would not like to take that appart. From time to time I check what they have done with specific places for inspiration but mainly I am not happy about what was done. Easily solved by playing in years before it happened.
In some areas, yes. Parts were changed in such a heavy-handed approach. Some I agreed with - I've never ever been a fan of the blatantly-boring Mexizo-American imperialism that the Church of Helm did nor that area in general. I was glad it went *poof* and we got Returned Abier/Laekarond instead. Same with Tymanther too. Others, such as the add half-draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars or the near catastrophic destruction of Neverwinter aren't things I was to pleased about (and easily ignored as it didn't happen). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 16:15:07
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Magical items, especially ones with magical charges still work during this time period. And I'm not totally convinced that ALL magic on the plane stopped or was inaccessible. I think it was more along the line of the way they usually tapped the weave to do magic didn't work that way anymore, and so it was a long and tough process for casters to relearn how to harness and cast magic in a different way (as a way to adjust for the new At-will/encounter/daily style).
As an aside, I've always (and still do) feel this was a VERY heavy-handed and needlessly unnecessary approach in the attempt to "justify" why magic worked differently. In terms of LORE of the setting, it frankly didn't matter if they cast spells AEDU (a la 4e) style, used the Vancian system of old OR this new hybrid version 5e put out. NONE of that actually mattered to the story.
What was known pre-Spellplague was:
• Wizards prepare spells from their spellbook and cast arcane magics. Sorcerers and Bards also cast arcane spells, often from various other means besides arcane books. None of that is contested with 4E.
• Clerics and Paladins prepare and cast prayers granted from their Gods. None of that is contested with 4E.
What is sorta contested is the notion that ALL divine casters need to worship a deity, which diverges from CORE of D&D. It's an in-setting thing that always needed added regardless of edition used.
Also, they branched out and made Nature-based character derive their power from Primal sources. To me this always fit better - in both lore, style, and concept than making it all "divine" like pre-4E. And if your going to require Deity worship anyways to cast magic, it doesn't really detract from anything.
Sorry if that was a bit off-topic, but I feel too often 4E gets blamed needlessly for the abrupt and drastic changes because the game changed when it could've easily just been aloof as usual when it came to casting magics in the Lore of the setting.
So magic items held their imbued magic and divine casters can receive their magic from different sources than gods.
Cultural changes during Spellplague are more of a tabula rasa style so I would not like to take that appart. From time to time I check what they have done with specific places for inspiration but mainly I am not happy about what was done. Easily solved by playing in years before it happened. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 14:34:15
Another great effect of this specific magical blackout was the cultural changes (described in the links already posted),though I guess this one is specific of the Spellplague, as the blackout lasted 10 years. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 05:54:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Zeromaru X - from my perspective - there will never be such event in future Realms of my game but you are correct.
If I'm correct, you're searching for effects and consequences of a magical blackout. Then, even if the Spellplague never happens in your Realms, you still can use its consequences as examples of magical blackouts.
That's why I posted the links.
You are close. Are there any interesting effects beyond "nothing works and rocks fly"?
Magical items, especially ones with magical charges still work during this time period. And I'm not totally convinced that ALL magic on the plane stopped or was inaccessible. I think it was more along the line of the way they usually tapped the weave to do magic didn't work that way anymore, and so it was a long and tough process for casters to relearn how to harness and cast magic in a different way (as a way to adjust for the new At-will/encounter/daily style).
As an aside, I've always (and still do) feel this was a VERY heavy-handed and needlessly unnecessary approach in the attempt to "justify" why magic worked differently. In terms of LORE of the setting, it frankly didn't matter if they cast spells AEDU (a la 4e) style, used the Vancian system of old OR this new hybrid version 5e put out. NONE of that actually mattered to the story.
What was known pre-Spellplague was:
• Wizards prepare spells from their spellbook and cast arcane magics. Sorcerers and Bards also cast arcane spells, often from various other means besides arcane books. None of that is contested with 4E.
• Clerics and Paladins prepare and cast prayers granted from their Gods. None of that is contested with 4E.
What is sorta contested is the notion that ALL divine casters need to worship a deity, which diverges from CORE of D&D. It's an in-setting thing that always needed added regardless of edition used.
Also, they branched out and made Nature-based character derive their power from Primal sources. To me this always fit better - in both lore, style, and concept than making it all "divine" like pre-4E. And if your going to require Deity worship anyways to cast magic, it doesn't really detract from anything.
Sorry if that was a bit off-topic, but I feel too often 4E gets blamed needlessly for the abrupt and drastic changes because the game changed when it could've easily just been aloof as usual when it came to casting magics in the Lore of the setting. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 21:48:22
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Zeromaru X - from my perspective - there will never be such event in future Realms of my game but you are correct.
If I'm correct, you're searching for effects and consequences of a magical blackout. Then, even if the Spellplague never happens in your Realms, you still can use its consequences as examples of magical blackouts.
That's why I posted the links.
You are close. Are there any interesting effects beyond "nothing works and rocks fly"? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 17:20:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Zeromaru X - from my perspective - there will never be such event in future Realms of my game but you are correct.
If I'm correct, you're searching for effects and consequences of a magical blackout. Then, even if the Spellplague never happens in your Realms, you still can use its consequences as examples of magical blackouts.
That's why I posted the links. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 14:24:47
Zeromaru X - from my perspective - there will never be such event in future Realms of my game but you are correct.
Sleyvas - basically yes but it is not so easy - that is why I ask you all. I am looking for constructs that might cause major problem with even short blackout in their function. ie Enclave would fall without magic. Prison would release the prisoner etc.
Udoxias served as amplifiers only (as I understand them) so it should not be huge if they do not work properly for a moment. Wards should be the same if they were not under constant pressure from somewhere.
On the second thought even the list as you mention it might be useful. My goal is first to assess the situation in canon than what could/should happen with those constructs and finally decide how would I like to implement it into my game as I prefer world that make sense without designers compromises.
That is nothing against FR designers. I only acknowledge they had to cut corners for broad audience (and dnd rules) and I do not have to do that. Also I would like for such a huge event to have consequences - all magic gone and only Netheries are affected?
TBeholder - is that anywhere in the lore or only novel? Does it have any date and can you describe it shortly? I would be also interested in any other large scale situations like this...
OK so what we have so far:
Eltab - his binding was only in -160 DR so after Karsus's Folly (KF for short). There might be a recent development from ToT but he is already more active than before so no need to deal with him.
Fey'ri - they were imprisoned in -4300 DR and released around ToT. Their escape would make a mess in history so I could link their escape with ToT to get rid of Gatekeeper crystal thing.
Trio Nefarious - imprisoned in -1200 DR and freed on 700 DR. So only KF in between and that would mess history too and also a nice story about prophecy.
Twisted Tower - was defeated in time of KF after 2300 years of skirmishes with elves. There might be a reason for it...
Imaskari barrier - I would not want to delve into details as it seems to have some controversy but it was there during both events and somehow endured even god's direct assault.
Udoxias - as Fall of Jhamdaath was soon after KF there might have been some political backlash after their failure... (not the magical problem but still interesting option)
Undead - their soul is held in place with magic so it could be said that it's absence would release it. However we have a opposite lore about Aumvor - he is stated to become lich as result of KF and also that it decimated his army of Living zombies (living beings with drained soul). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 02:52:08
The mythallars obviously failed, during Karsus's Epic Fail.
But that was the only real blackout -- the other times, magic was simply unreliable.
Personally, as I see it, magic was may have gone offline at that time, but with the obvious exception of the mythallars, other ongoing magical effects either faded out too slowly to be noticed, or had enough of a reserve to be sustained, and in either case, came back online very quickly.
The reason I say this is because of things like magical prisons and such. The fey'ri and the Trio Nefarious all stayed locked away, despite the fact that magic was offline. So either their imprisoning magics had some sort of UPS to sustain them, or the effects faded too slowly for those beings to awaken and get free. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 02:35:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I would like to ask for your help fellow scribes in summarizing possible situations surrounding mainly two major blackouts of Magic in FR - Karse Folly and ToT.
IIRC between those there was at least one more: when Mystra I had the whole thing "shut down for maintenance" during The Temptation of St. Elminster.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 01:43:47
So, you're looking for major "constructs" of magic that MIGHT have been affected in a big way when magic failed? So, like a list that says things like
mythallars
Udoxias (because nothing says that psionics wasn't impacted when Mystryl fell, though we know it was different when the ToT happened)
elven mythals
the wards around Evermeet (the ones that aren't mythals)
the wards of various places like Candlekeep
the ward beneath Waterdeep that keeps it stable
various magical traps and stasis fields holding creatures, including the strange demoncysts (forget the term right now... is demoncyst right?) that bind Eltab's layer to Toril, including Dun-Thaross and Dun-Orthass and Eltabbar
The portals in various places like Ashanath and Shandaular (sp?)
The homes of the gods in Mulhorand and Unther
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 00:44:47
There is a third major magic blackout in the Realms as well: the Spellplague. During the wailing years there was no magic in all of Toril and Abeir.
You can read all of its known effects here:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spellplague
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wailing_Years
|
| Wrigley |
Posted - 07 Oct 2019 : 00:14:05
I am not sure if I was unclear or if you just answered the opposite of what I have been asking.
I would like to create a list of magical constructs at those times that could make an impact if they work wrong. It is not important if they actually went wrong.
Also was there any other mention of magic failure in lore than enclaves and some wild magic areas? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Oct 2019 : 23:51:21
The main thing with these things is that they didn't all act the same way for the same things. Now as a "scientific mind" that makes no sense. From a dungeon master's mind, it allows them to create loopholes so that essentially they can make plot decisions as needed. So, there may have been mythallars and Netherese cities that actually didn't fall. There may have been some magic wardings that were dropped and the trapped demons freed, but EVERY such demon wasn't freed. Magic is fickle, and two mages can have their magic spell that's up have dispel magic cast upon it by two magic users of the same level.... one might drop and the other might not. 5 wands of fireball kept in the same drawer, one of them may have lost all power permanently, another might have faltered and become a wand of wonder, another might change from being a wand with a finite number of charges to a wand that has less charges but renews its charges nightly, another might continue to work as per normal but with a chance of exploding, and the last one may have transformed itself into an intelligent magic item by absorbing the intellect of the mage sleeping in the next room who created it. |
|
|
