| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 03:28:48
This is a question that has bugged me for many, many years: when do people think this city-state was founded?
The latest 5E Descent to Avernus adventure has it as a village called Gray's Harbor, which is the home to Balduran and then it becomes, in time, Baldur's Gate. I note that Candlekeep is founded in c. -200 DR and the Ithal Dynasty establishes Tethyr in -212 DR. Also, the write-up of Shavinar here at the 'Keep and entries regarding it in GHotR are likely relevant.
Thoughts?
-- George Krashos |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Asharak |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 13:36:52
for Dradeel :
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dradeel |
| Asharak |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 13:11:49
@WJNMN
What was the fishing village called?
@TheEdVerse
Loklee.
It was in the lee of the plateau, which was in old times called Lok's Fist (Lok was a hill giant who'd dwelt there, and often punched prey to death; no fisherfolk could settle until he was dead).
- Edited on 1/10/2022 to add new tweet |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 05:33:52
Pardon my ignorance, but where are “Loklee”, “Dradeel” and “Golodon” referred to?
— George Krashos |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 04:27:35
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Ed said on twitter, back in March of last year:
"It was known as Baldur’s Gate, and considered a city, by 446 DR."
However, he also said that the fishing village it grew from was founded before 0 DR. Lastly, he said it was likely known as Baldur's Gate before 300 DR, though wasn't considered a city at the time.
I recall a thread between George and Ed around the same time where Ed said that it was still a fishing village during the time of Shavinar, and a minority of the citizens there even paid taxes to the realm, but only obeyed Shavinar's laws when enforcers were actively about in the area.
Interesting. Balduran only intended to have the fortifications protect Gray Harbor, not the village of Loklee, so when the farmers took control of the wall of the wall's construction, I doubt they had expansion in mind. So the whole of the Upper City must have covered almost exactly the ancient farms. Then over the next century or century and a half, Old Town urbanised so much that the total of it and Heapside was considered a city.
All this certainly narrows down the time Balduran was alive. If we consider the character of Dradeel as canon, him being alive in 1369 DR means he was over 1000 years old at that time (and so was his rival Golodon the Unmanned): not unheard of for an elf, but certainly uncommon. I guess it must have been difficult to move on to Arvandor when being raving mad... |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 16:34:29
Ed said on twitter, back in March of last year:
"It was known as Baldur’s Gate, and considered a city, by 446 DR."
However, he also said that the fishing village it grew from was founded before 0 DR. Lastly, he said it was likely known as Baldur's Gate before 300 DR, though wasn't considered a city at the time.
I recall a thread between George and Ed around the same time where Ed said that it was still a fishing village during the time of Shavinar, and a minority of the citizens there even paid taxes to the realm, but only obeyed Shavinar's laws when enforcers were actively about in the area. |
| Asharak |
Posted - 06 Jan 2023 : 18:23:28
The Plague of the Scholars may have caused the death of the hill giant Lok, and allowed the permanent establishment of the tiny fishing village named Loklee shortly thereafter, circa -15 DR.
Other settlements may have existed before but failed to survive. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 01:40:15
Master Krashos,
So, essentially, it was just a mistake is the best way to look at it, nothing to see here, please move along?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yes, like I said, the references are problematic. The -16 DR timeline entry in my personal timeline has a "present-day" in front of Baldur's Gate.
-- George Krashos
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 00:06:46
Yes, like I said, the references are problematic. The -16 DR timeline entry in my personal timeline has a "present-day" in front of Baldur's Gate.
-- George Krashos |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 08:28:47
Master Krashos,
I remember it being listed in the "Calimport" accessory on page 19 that it was there as of -16DR.
quote:
-16 Year of the Poisoned Pens The Plague of Scholars (Plague): All cities across southern Faerűn, as far north as Baldur's Gate; lethargy and heavy sleep leads to coma and death, some unknown agency poisoned vast amounts of ink 19
and quills used by scribes, scholars, and business folk; 20% (11%).
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This is a question that has bugged me for many, many years: when do people think this city-state was founded?
The latest 5E Descent to Avernus adventure has it as a village called Gray's Harbor, which is the home to Balduran and then it becomes, in time, Baldur's Gate. I note that Candlekeep is founded in c. -200 DR and the Ithal Dynasty establishes Tethyr in -212 DR. Also, the write-up of Shavinar here at the 'Keep and entries regarding it in GHotR are likely relevant.
Thoughts?
-- George Krashos
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 23:05:57
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks for that. I think the Shavinar post is problematic because, given the existence of Candlekeep from -200 DR and the strategic location of Baldur's Gate at the mouth of the Chionthar, that it beggars belief that a settlement at that location would be established so late. I agree re the Calishite angle and think the handwave simply has to be that the name of Baldur's Gate as a recognised city-state occurred in the timeframe you set out but that there had been settlements there for a long time previously. Gray's Harbor was the one that survived and then grew into Baldur's Gate but I see other settlements pre-dating Gray's Harbor from the -300s DR also, as Calishite explorers and settlers push into the wild lands of the Sword Coast North.
But your post also makes it clear that the realm of Ebenfar needs major fleshing out in terms of its geography and history. Time to re-read those books for the scant detail they provide. Oh well, more for the pile. Thanks for your thoughts.
-- George Krashos
There is a So Sayeth Ed with this about the location of Baldur's Gate:
The realm of Shavinar was founded in the Year of the Raised Banner (227 DR) by a local adventurer, Orluth Tshahvur (possibly-exaggerated bards' ballads describe him as a "swift sword" who "won many blood victories" and was smart as well as deadly in battle), in an attempt to unite human steadings (ranches and farms) for common defense against marauding monsters, frequent troll raids, and outlaws cast out of more southerly Sword Coast cities.
Tshahvur built a crude keep near what is now Baldur's Gate (and was then a nameless cluster of fisherfolk huts)…
As for Ebenfar, from what have been able to find, it would seem that it lasted from sometime after 34 (I am thinking 44ish to give him time to master the artifact enough to take control of a city) to right around 150. I based this on what information I could find concerning Iriaebor: The next solid timeframe (beyond the one with people fleeing Ebenfar in 140) is that Ed stated Elminster's nephew was in Iriaebor in the mid 200s. So, given the fact that no one knew that the Shadowking was buried under the city, that should place his burial at least one generation earlier than that. So, that would place his death/burial around 150 or so. That also gave me the idea that the Shadowking was buried in some out of the way spot (to protect him from graverobbers) so that places the founding of Iriaebor somewhere around the beginning of the 200s. Accounting for this places Ebenfar lasting from soon after 34 to about 150 with the kingdom completely falling apart (into independent city-states) within 10 years given infighting among those left after his death thinking they should be put in charge. Does that fit in with any sources that I am not aware of? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 04:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks for that. I think the Shavinar post is problematic because, given the existence of Candlekeep from -200 DR and the strategic location of Baldur's Gate at the mouth of the Chionthar, that it beggars belief that a settlement at that location would be established so late. I agree re the Calishite angle and think the handwave simply has to be that the name of Baldur's Gate as a recognised city-state occurred in the timeframe you set out but that there had been settlements there for a long time previously. Gray's Harbor was the one that survived and then grew into Baldur's Gate but I see other settlements pre-dating Gray's Harbor from the -300s DR also, as Calishite explorers and settlers push into the wild lands of the Sword Coast North.
But your post also makes it clear that the realm of Ebenfar needs major fleshing out in terms of its geography and history. Time to re-read those books for the scant detail they provide. Oh well, more for the pile. Thanks for your thoughts.
-- George Krashos
I think you have Ebenfar, Valashar, and Shavinar all in roughly the same region, some concurrently. It's actually a pretty interesting period and likely responsible for many of the ruins found today.
I might argue that the lack of ports at major river mouths might be due to all the islands just off the coast. The Nelanthar, The Moonshaes, Mintarn, and the newly discovered Sertra would have dominated the seas far more than continental ports. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 14:13:24
Thanks for that. I think the Shavinar post is problematic because, given the existence of Candlekeep from -200 DR and the strategic location of Baldur's Gate at the mouth of the Chionthar, that it beggars belief that a settlement at that location would be established so late. I agree re the Calishite angle and think the handwave simply has to be that the name of Baldur's Gate as a recognised city-state occurred in the timeframe you set out but that there had been settlements there for a long time previously. Gray's Harbor was the one that survived and then grew into Baldur's Gate but I see other settlements pre-dating Gray's Harbor from the -300s DR also, as Calishite explorers and settlers push into the wild lands of the Sword Coast North.
But your post also makes it clear that the realm of Ebenfar needs major fleshing out in terms of its geography and history. Time to re-read those books for the scant detail they provide. Oh well, more for the pile. Thanks for your thoughts.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 12:41:29
The western heartlands is on my list of places to look at after the moonshae isles. The sunset vale is also pretty interesting. In fact the whole region is a goldmine of undetailed but half hinted lore nuggets. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 11:57:59
I think you have to think of the human history of the region in terms of ethnic groups, washing over the area like waves. Calishite, Tethyrian, Talfir, Chondathan, and Netherese. Then you have to look at the remnants and weave it together. A lot of this history is spelled out in Races of Faerun and Lost Empires of Faerun, but it's definitely not comprehensive.
A couple places that I didn't hear mentioned in the list above include the Netherese Caverns of Philock (DDGttU, page 96, Underdark, page 185) and Helbrester (Lost Empires, page 109).
I think you can probably pull the strands together to account for why the mouth of River Chionthar was not settled as early as you would have thought. Or, if it was, why that settlement vanished.
I had been thinking of adding the Chionthar River Valley as a fun place to detail, after the High Forest, the Dessarin, and the Sword Coast North. ;-) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 08:40:48
Well candlekeep could have been an anomaly. The netherese who established it could easily have been powerful enough to establish and hold a fort while surrounded by enemies.
Before -200 it should really be giant or goblinoid country that was gradually pushed further towards the sea as the humans encroached on their land.
The Baldurs Gate game has a labyrinth below the city sewers so perhaps the goblinoids did some nasty stuff and there were some really old ruins there with big evils inside. After all tshavar didn't establish a settlement himself, he lured someone else there from a powerful southern nation, why would he do that and what did the calishite possess that he did not. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 03:39:53
Thanks for that. I think the Shavinar post is problematic because, given the existence of Candlekeep from -200 DR and the strategic location of Baldur's Gate at the mouth of the Chionthar, that it beggars belief that a settlement at that location would be established so late. I agree re the Calishite angle and think the handwave simply has to be that the name of Baldur's Gate as a recognised city-state occurred in the timeframe you set out but that there had been settlements there for a long time previously. Gray's Harbor should be established after the fall of Shavinar at the site of Gaeth and then grew into Baldur's Gate but I see other settlements existing at that location from the -300s DR also, as Calishite explorers and settlers push into the wild lands of the Sword Coast North.
But your post also makes it clear that the realm of Ebenfar needs major fleshing out in terms of its geography and history. Time to re-read those books for the scant detail they provide. Oh well, more for the pile. Thanks for your thoughts.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 20:32:53
Just found Ed's post about Shavinar and how it was founded in 227 DR, looks like Gray is a corruption of a calishite name (the ship wright lured there by the founder of Shavinar).
So Gray's Port probably founded a year either side of 227 DR. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 20:13:08
Well i've had a look over things and here are my few cents for what they are worth.
34 DR - Verraketh finds the shadowstar, as it slowly transforms him he gathers an army of shadow spinners and beings forcibly assimilating the netherese and talfir realms of the Chionthar River Valley (such as the Duchy of Indoria)
Now from above, no idea what shadow spinners are (but i remember something about a year of wan shades), he conquers the Duchy of Indoria sometime after 34 DR (he is slowly transformed) and the Duchy of Indoria is in the Fields of the Dead.
90 DR - Ebenfar and Najara have a big fight at the Fields of the Dead
So Indoria must be a part of Ebenfar by this time
140 DR - Talfir tribes flee to the Moonshae Isles from persecution by the Empire of Ebenfar.
So above we have the Empire of Ebenfar stretching as far as the Fields of the Dead, by 140 DR the last remaining talfir tribes leave altogether which says to me that the Empire of Ebenfar owns all the land as far as the coast.
Baldur's Gate seems like a good place to have a port at this point in time. Probably a military port as Ebenfar looks to expand north and south (it has no large enemies within the western heartlands except presumably the elves and the reformed remnants of Najara who work against it from within later and cause its downfall)
227 DR - Shavvinar is founded
277 DR - Shavvinar falls
From the above that says to me that at this point Ebenfar is losing its grip on the outlying territories.
So as a rough estimate i would put the founding of Grays Port somewhere around 200 DR as a pirate haven, probably repeatedly cleaned out by Ebenfars troops and then abandoned as the troops went AWOL and allowing the pirates to return.
Now as for Baldur's Gate, i originally envisaged it as having four duchies that Balduran united/purchased to found a shortlived kingdom for himself. He dies and the kingdom falls apart and sometime after the duchies fail as well (probably when Cormyr and Valashar come to blows in the region). The Dukes flee the war to Baldur's Gate and the Grand Dukes are born as rulers.
I put the date of the founding of Baldur's Gate as sometime after the fall of Ebenfar, probably not that long either as Baldur could have been a pirate or a former fleet captain of Ebenfar who invaded Gray's Port opportunistically after Ebenfar collapsed (i think i randomly chose 324 DR but it could be within a few years either side of that (Verraketh could have vanished for a few years before people noticed - his generals desperately holding onto power by pretending he was still around).
Just my thoughts
Around 200 DR for Gray's Harbour
Around 323 DR for Baldur's Gate
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 15:21:51
I've been interested in this answer for a while, more as it pertains to Anchorome, so if you do actually find anything pertaining to dates, color me in. I honestly don't think things were nailed down. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 08:42:26
I did some research into it a few years ago, I shall see what I thought at the time and whether anything has changed.
I also noted they made the shield of the hidden lord celestial in origin (not sure I like it), and some angel called zariel leading an army into the hells in 1354 from baldurs gate. Wasnt zariel involved in hell long before this time. And wasnt the dragonspear war around 1354.
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