| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 05:02:18
So we all know that Xvim died on Midwinter of 1372 DR and that Bane emerged from his corpse. What I'm curious about is this.
1) Does he still have any bit of a following after death? I know before he died he had his father's portfolio, so it's unlikely that he would still be worshipped as such. If so, would it be possible for him to worshipped via the Servant of the Fallen feat?
2) If not that, what about existing as a vestige (per the 3.5 Edition Tome of Magic sourcebook)? I could see him as such giving any Binder abilities related to his cruelty, charm and fiendish nature. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 20:40:16
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The current thing, with the Dead Three "choosing" to be weaker avatars instead of more powerful deities, just doesn't make sense to me.
It's been implied by designers on social media that all three are being manipulated by Jergal somehow.
Jergal would have to be the greatest manipulator that ever lived if he convinced the self-proclaimed ultimate tyrant that dramatically weakening himself was a good idea.
I mean sure, it's possible Jergal is playing some game, but I don't think we can say this avatar shtick is his fault. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 17:45:42
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
It's been implied by designers on social media that all three are being manipulated by Jergal somehow.
I take this as Ed Greenwood trying to make sense of an utterly stupid plot. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 22 Jul 2021 : 15:45:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The current thing, with the Dead Three "choosing" to be weaker avatars instead of more powerful deities, just doesn't make sense to me.
It's been implied by designers on social media that all three are being manipulated by Jergal somehow. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 15:45:57
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Cloak & Dagger is really the only product that details Xvim’s clergy after the re-establishment of the church as an heir to Bane and rival to Cyric for that title.
There were so many great hooks and plots developed—thoughtfully—that seemingly got flushed with the 3E FRCS. Instead of developing the ideas laid out further, most were discarded and completely unexpected things tossed out, like the sudden rise of Sharran cults and a returned Netheril (consisting of Shades no less.)
There is definitely a method you could see to have Bane return based on some of the actions that are described in C&D, especially the slaying of the banelich by Fzoul and absorbing the powers, which we know are actually aspects of Bane that were bestowed into the banelichs. That we never got even a basic metaphysical reasoning for the return of Bane seems pretty weak.
The current thing, with the Dead Three "choosing" to be weaker avatars instead of more powerful deities, just doesn't make sense to me. That's why I think they -- and perhaps others of the supposedly returned deities -- didn't actually return as deities. I think they were given a choice to serve the current holder of their former portfolio in a reduced capacity, or to be an independent avatar with a possibility of re-ascending if they earn it.
Bane, with his gig being the ultimate tyrant, wasn't about to serve someone else, so he opted for the latter. And since he isn't about to let on that he's anything less than all that, he claims it was all some plot on his part.
Of course, that's just my spin to have something resembling a reasonable explanation. Nothing in current lore (such as it is) supports it, and I fully expect the current design team to do something to invalidate it. |
| redking |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 14:56:54
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Cloak & Dagger is really the only product that details Xvim’s clergy after the re-establishment of the church as an heir to Bane and rival to Cyric for that title.
There were so many great hooks and plots developed—thoughtfully—that seemingly got flushed with the 3E FRCS.
Cloak & Dagger was great. Its a real shame that the plot hooks never got developed. I was left scratching my head when 3E came around.
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
That we never got even a basic metaphysical reasoning for the return of Bane seems pretty weak.
Yes. No explanation at all. |
| nblanton |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 14:47:05
Cloak & Dagger is really the only product that details Xvim’s clergy after the re-establishment of the church as an heir to Bane and rival to Cyric for that title.
There were so many great hooks and plots developed—thoughtfully—that seemingly got flushed with the 3E FRCS. Instead of developing the ideas laid out further, most were discarded and completely unexpected things tossed out, like the sudden rise of Sharran cults and a returned Netheril (consisting of Shades no less.)
There is definitely a method you could see to have Bane return based on some of the actions that are described in C&D, especially the slaying of the banelich by Fzoul and absorbing the powers, which we know are actually aspects of Bane that were bestowed into the banelichs. That we never got even a basic metaphysical reasoning for the return of Bane seems pretty weak. |
| redking |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 14:43:06
The sudden return of Bane was most unwelcome. If this Bane is actually Xvim, it makes a lot of sense. You could even have a situation where 'Bane is Xvim' is a secret teaching of the contemporary Banite Church, with the highest ranks of the clergy let in on the secret that Bane is secretly the Godson. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 13:44:51
quote:
Originally posted by redking
Xvim is Bane. Bane is Xvim. Wooly Rupert is almost certainly correct. The 'return' of Bane makes no sense. Ao himself made sure that Bane would not return.
The more bits and pieces I find, the more I'm convinced that my theory was what the designers of the time intended. The Teldorn Darkhope info goes back to 2E, so the groundwork for this was laid a while ago.
Unfortunately, the current designers don't seem to have paid any attention to things like that, and their "All* the deities are back!" stance is just horribly problematic, even disregarding the Xvim/Bane thing.
I put that asterisk there because "all" clearly has not meant every prior deity, and apparently not even all of those that fell during the ToT. |
| redking |
Posted - 13 Jul 2021 : 13:18:48
Xvim is Bane. Bane is Xvim. Wooly Rupert is almost certainly correct. The 'return' of Bane makes no sense. Ao himself made sure that Bane would not return. |
| rangerstranger |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 20:27:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170
Holy carp! My theory has official backing!
(Obviously, I'm not saying this proves my theory -- it does not. It just adds another layer of proof.)
Iyachtu Xvim was also posing as Bane when he whispered to Teldorn Darkhope to conquer Mintar in 1362.
In Empires of the Shining Sea, On Page 155, the first paragraph after "Notable Clergy and Churches" it says "The Temple of the Dark Lord, the temple at which Teldorn Darkhope received the visions that launched him on his schemes of conquest. Unknown to Darkhope, it was not Bane who was whispering tales of conquest and reward into his ears--it was actually Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson of Bane. Darkhope remains unaware of the deception to this day, but he suspects Bane may not be of the pawer he once was."
This definitely sets the precedent that Xvim is not above pretending to be his father in effort to further his own cause. Xvim may not have intended for Teldorn to believe he was Bane when whispering into his ear but he seems to have just ran with it after seeing how much fervor he created with in Teldorn and how effectively he was in conquering Mintar. Also, I find it interesting that Teldorn started his conquest of Mintar on Midwinter night, 1362, and Bane supposedly returned on Midwinter night, 1372. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 26 Jun 2021 : 08:41:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170
Holy carp! My theory has official backing!
(Obviously, I'm not saying this proves my theory -- it does not. It just adds another layer of proof.)
I guess Brian R. James threw you a bone Wooly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2021 : 03:41:08
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The insidiousness of Bane is that he's convinced Chauntea as long as he's in charge of the universe, people everywhere will eat their sprouts and like them.
Or else.
Of course, it's only due to Leira's illusions that people even think sprouts are edible... |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 26 Jun 2021 : 03:20:58
The insidiousness of Bane is that he's convinced Chauntea as long as he's in charge of the universe, people everywhere will eat their sprouts and like them.
Or else. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 23:52:55
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It isn't REALLY Xvim. It is Eldath because the only way to truly have peace is if you control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peace.
Or it could be Chauntea, trying to control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peas.
Give peas a chance! |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 23:08:55
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It isn't REALLY Xvim. It is Eldath because the only way to truly have peace is if you control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peace.
Or it could be Chauntea, trying to control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peas.
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 14:21:46
It isn't REALLY Xvim. It is Eldath because the only way to truly have peace is if you control and dominate everyone to MAKE them have peace. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 04:27:03
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170
Holy carp! My theory has official backing!
(Obviously, I'm not saying this proves my theory -- it does not. It just adds another layer of proof.)
|
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 25 Jun 2021 : 01:30:44
Xvim was still worshiped in Phlan in the 15th century. They called the god Bane, but the iconography, rituals, priesthood, etc. were all that of Xvimlar clergy.
They only paid a nominal tribute to the orthodox Church of Bane in Mulmaster to avoid being branded as heretics.
"The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god." -Monument of the Ancients, Dungeon Magazine #170 |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jun 2021 : 00:32:33
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Hmm, according to the Mages & Sages Podcast, Ed Greenwood doesn't confirm Xvim being alive, but offers his "belief" that sightings of Xvim present the probability that Xvim was brought back to life by Bane.
If Bane resurrected Xvim, perhaps the son might not have the power level that he originally held, perhaps being brought back as a mortal or fiendish agent.
I saw Xvim and some bushy haired fat man wearing a sequinned body suit going by the name Elvys, they were putting on a show on stage in the former Netherese city of Doubloon, known as Luneira, that is floating amongst the Tears of Selune. He should NOT sing... he's very bad at it.
|
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 22:35:47
Hmm, according to the Mages & Sages Podcast, Ed Greenwood doesn't confirm Xvim being alive, but offers his "belief" that sightings of Xvim present the probability that Xvim was brought back to life by Bane.
If Bane resurrected Xvim, perhaps the son might not have the power level that he originally held, perhaps being brought back as a mortal or fiendish agent.
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 17:08:55
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Apparently he’s not back, but never left?
Just reigned in significantly by daddy Bane?
Ok, that almost killed me. Teach me to drink anything while reading.
That "daddy Bane" bit made me think of Big and Little Enus Burdett from the Smokey and the Bandit movie: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mrjfKy7cX3g/TrJ1aQu4INI/AAAAAAAATQg/YZMUdTQKNkI/s1600/SmokeyBandit_021Pyxurz.jpg
|
| nblanton |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:56:58
Apparently he’s not back, but never left?
Just reigned in significantly by daddy Bane? |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:05:12
Xvim is back per Ed in one of the latest Mages and Sages podcasts, A Deep Dive into the Dalelands with Ed and Friends at this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bblbW3CPrGo&t=1158s&ab_channel=Mages%26SagesPodcast-FansofEdGreenwood
He's more dedicated to Bane's will now, and if he was destroyed from spawning Bane in 3E, Bane may well have brought him back to life. Check out the podcast, lots of good Xvim info. :) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 22:34:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought kinda, and I only thought about it because you mentioned "Valigan Thirdborn isn't back". Maybe he is, just under a different name and in a different pantheon. We have that "all the gods are back", but not necessarily "and returned to every pantheon they were ever in".
Why would he return under a different name? And if he is back under a different name or in a different pantheon, why has there been no mention of this "new" deity?
And what about Murdane, or Ibrandul, or Kiputytto, or even Tyche? Those are just the fallen Realms deities I can think of off the top of my head.
Until I see something saying these deities are back, I'm sticking with my "WotC's definition of 'all' doesn't match the dictionary definition" stance.
I'm not saying I want these deities back -- I'm happy with the pantheon as it existed in 2E/3E (deferring to 2E in case of conflict). I'm just saying that WotC's "All the gods are back!" statement was poorly thought out and needs clarification, because it clearly is not the case. You can't even say that all the gods from the start of 2E are back -- though Leira's back and the Dead Three appear to be back (I'm skeptical on how divine they really are), Ibrandul died during the same timeframe and hasn't been mentioned as being back.
Oh, I agree that all doesn't mean all. However, on the original statement about like Valigan... it may be that he's not up in say the Faerunian pantheon area because he'd be challenging another god like Cyric and Valigan just isn't "strong" enough to "fight a fight on multiple fronts"... so maybe he's returned in a place like Anchorome, Zakhara, or the Utter East, etc.. under another name or even the same name.
Ibrandul may be back as well (he had a chosen in one of the pre-sundering adventures), but maybe only in the underdark has he returned and maybe only to a select group of worshippers.
Just saying that we have the opportunity to do a lot of different ideas, so don't necessarily tie ourselves to anything yet if WotC won't either. |
| nblanton |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 21:23:14
Yeah, I avoid a lot of this mess by just setting my games in 1367-8 DR. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 21:11:56
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If the stated purpose of the Second Sundering was to undo the Spellplague (4e), then I will tend to take that "all gods are back" to mean that all the gods that were around for 2e/3e are back. Bane would be back with a possible demi-god Xvim suddenly appearing somewhere (a lost alter somewhere) that could lead to a Xvim-based heresy within the Church of Bane.
Of course, this means that it is the real Bane that is back and he is making some slight changes to make sure the Xvimilar convert to worship Bane (and thus stave off that above mentioned heresy).
My personal interpretation is that the deities of the 3E era are back, and that the "all gods are back" shtick was more about undoing 4E's thing of "these two gods who are kinda sorta maybe alike are actually one deity!" than it was about returning fallen deities to life. Of course, the Dead Three still make that interpretation problematic, since they fell earlier... The flip side, though, is that with them "choosing" to be avatars, it gives some wiggle room on the nature of their return.
I don't know that I would DM in the 5E Realms, but if I did, I'd very much run with my idea that the Dead Three only claim to be deities, and that they're trying to recover their lost divinity. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 20:44:45
If the stated purpose of the Second Sundering was to undo the Spellplague (4e), then I will tend to take that "all gods are back" to mean that all the gods that were around for 2e/3e are back. Bane would be back with a possible demi-god Xvim suddenly appearing somewhere (a lost alter somewhere) that could lead to a Xvim-based heresy within the Church of Bane.
Of course, this means that it is the real Bane that is back and he is making some slight changes to make sure the Xvimilar convert to worship Bane (and thus stave off that above mentioned heresy). |
| nblanton |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 20:18:35
To avoid straying off topic too far, taken literally, “all gods are back” could really become problematic. First, there are inconsistencies between editions as to what amounts to a “god.” Is Borem and Marem returned? Were these entities even “gods” or whatever exarchs are/were? How about Karsus, he was a deity, if only momentarily. Is Gilgeam back terrorizing the folk of the Old Empires?
To bring it back to Xvim, one would assume that he has either “returned” or never left, as “Xvim
is Bane”—a la Woolly’s theory, then would the OG Bane be returned?
Or, does this whole debate lend more credence to the “lore” of these days isn’t well founded or contemplated based on existing lore, but just thrown out willy-nilly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 19:19:50
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought kinda, and I only thought about it because you mentioned "Valigan Thirdborn isn't back". Maybe he is, just under a different name and in a different pantheon. We have that "all the gods are back", but not necessarily "and returned to every pantheon they were ever in".
Why would he return under a different name? And if he is back under a different name or in a different pantheon, why has there been no mention of this "new" deity?
And what about Murdane, or Ibrandul, or Kiputytto, or even Tyche? Those are just the fallen Realms deities I can think of off the top of my head.
Until I see something saying these deities are back, I'm sticking with my "WotC's definition of 'all' doesn't match the dictionary definition" stance.
I'm not saying I want these deities back -- I'm happy with the pantheon as it existed in 2E/3E (deferring to 2E in case of conflict). I'm just saying that WotC's "All the gods are back!" statement was poorly thought out and needs clarification, because it clearly is not the case. You can't even say that all the gods from the start of 2E are back -- though Leira's back and the Dead Three appear to be back (I'm skeptical on how divine they really are), Ibrandul died during the same timeframe and hasn't been mentioned as being back. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2021 : 18:08:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
According to something I heard on the Mages and Sages podcast recently is that Bane is Bane resurrected through Xvim at the start of 3e, however Xvim did not die and is walking around the Realms causing mischief. can't remember all the details, but Xvim is still around, just cant remember if he is viewed as mortal, immortal or deity of some type.
The official stance is that Bane burst out of Xvim. That's in the 3E FRCS. However, in 5E, they've given us "all the deities are back!" without explaining what that really means (since deities like Murdane, Kipputytto, Tyche, and Valigan Thirdborn are not back, it clearly shows that WotC's "all" does not meet the accepted definition of the word).
So, officially, Bane is back and Xvim can also be assumed to be back, though this seems contradictory.
As I detailed previously in this discussion, though, there are a lot of hints that returned Bane and original Bane are not the same entity.
Just a thought kinda, and I only thought about it because you mentioned "Valigan Thirdborn isn't back". Maybe he is, just under a different name and in a different pantheon. We have that "all the gods are back", but not necessarily "and returned to every pantheon they were ever in". |
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