| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Cosmar |
Posted - 11 Jun 2019 : 22:04:45
So, in game terms, Drow are significantly more powerful than their elven cousins, at least in 3.X (I can't remember/never learned their stats from 2E or 4E+).
3.X, they get spell resistance, several very useful spell-like abilities, darkvision, and bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha.
They still get Con penalty like most elves, and the Darkvision makes sense because of living underground so long. But why are they so much more dexterous, charismatic and intelligent compared to many other elves, and why the SLA's and spell resistance? Are they Lolth's blessings, or were they natural evolutions? Does it have something to do with being exposed to faerzress for so long?
And if it's Lolth's blessing, why wouldn't Corellon have blessed other elves in similar fashion? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Jul 2019 : 23:18:27
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
And if it's Lolth's blessing, why wouldn't Corellon have blessed other elves in similar fashion?
Likely common elven version: elves are already perfect. Now let's drink and dance with pixies some more. 
Likely priest "official" version: elves are all around awesome, but also are very much corruptible (remember Ilythiir and Aryvandaar), so easy power would lead to bad things, and to stop thinking about such sad matters why won't we go drink and dance with pixies for a while.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
except making the Seldarine dislike the drow even more.
Or at least the mortal barbarian elves. After all, they buried fey'ri alive all on their own, not even with "guidance" (like the Descent). While up in Arvandor - Moonsilver (Px (Sehanine)/n tiefling/R10/CG).
quote:
And I mean, why should demonic powers from a balor (which is fire-themed) manifest as the ability to make lights appear, levitate, create globes of darkness etc... seems just thematically weird. Look tieflings and the fire+darkness stuff they get.
Indeed. It was sort of confirmed that in part that's side effects of radiation magic system working not like that of other elves, or dark elves before Descent. And its state has readily observable effects, too.
Of course, this may cover radiance effects, but levitation is oddball. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Jul 2019 : 18:41:21
quote:
Originally posted by wmaster
Wasn't their entire distinct ethic group imbued with the blood of a demon that granted them their enhancements that owe to their feared and legendary status?
No, the demon only mated with some noble families; it somehow spread to the rest of the drow through interbreeding over the millennia, after they were exiled underground. However, the demon blood never did anything in the whole history of the Realms, neither when it came to power, nor to morality (Drizzt and most followers of Eilistraee were, and still are, after Eilistraee re-emerged during the Sundering, demon-"tainted"), except making the Seldarine dislike the drow even more.
And I mean, why should demonic powers from a balor (which is fire-themed) manifest as the ability to make lights appear, levitate, create globes of darkness etc... seems just thematically weird. Look tieflings and the fire+darkness stuff they get. |
| wmaster |
Posted - 06 Jul 2019 : 18:06:13
Wasn't their entire distinct ethic group imbued with the blood of a demon that granted them their enhancements that owe to their feared and legendary status? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 03 Jul 2019 : 04:44:29
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
In 5e Drow are one of the most powerful races, with all kinds of great goodies, but at the cost of also being one of the most vulnerable ones, sunlight is blinding for them some what. This is much less of a disadvantage in Dungeon Delves like Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, then say wondering across a desert at midnoon.
Eh, you really think they're powerful? +1 Charisma, darkvision, and some spell-like abilities for basically never functioning in the daylight all the time? I think they should've received the Lizardfolk treatment from Volo's Guide and got Advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws against magic. That would explain a lot more IMO. |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 02 Jul 2019 : 23:47:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Drow are powerful because drow are popular.
They started off as an elite 1E monster race which inspired Drizzt. They grew in power as Drizzt carried them to 2E Menzo/Underdark expansions. They thrived all across 3E and got another boost of mania from each bestseller Drizzt novel release. Drow popularity still simmers and flares but it's mostly subsided because RAS slowed down and 4E offered so many other overpowered playable race choices.
I'd make the inverse observation, Drow are weaker now than they have ever been because they are popular.
In Vault of the Drow it is clearly stated that "all male drow are second level fighters." That's the only race I know of that gets bonus class levels. They also got a bunch of default magical gear. Magic Resistance was set at 50% as a base and increased by 2% per level, and they were all given two-weapon fighting with no off-hand penalty as a racial characteristic.
Drow started getting nerfed after the Drizzt books when people were lobbying to be able to play them, and DMs were resisting because Drow PC's upset the game balance. 3E tried to reflect this by giving them an effective level adjustment, but they took away a fair amount of their original features to even get it within the ballpark of playability.
Why were they so powerful? Gygax needed a new and unique threat for characters 10-14th level. Drow were designed to generate TPKs. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2019 : 21:24:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There is a chapter about this in Drow of the Underdark. Goes into great depth about the origin / nature of drow natural powers and their martial/technical expertise.
Which one? There's been like 3 books by that name.... |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Jun 2019 : 13:04:05
There is a chapter about this in Drow of the Underdark. Goes into great depth about the origin / nature of drow natural powers and their martial/technical expertise. |
| Cosmar |
Posted - 21 Jun 2019 : 20:01:22
Awesome, thanks for all the answers and insights!
So it's mostly Faerzress exposure / brutal cultural practices, less than Lolth's direct blessing. She wasn't like "here, Drow, I bestow upon thee these mighty powers!" That makes me feel better. And the breeding for excellence/culling the weak explains the better stats. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 06:24:13
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Growth as in
Aside of a strange redefinition, these things simply aren't applicable.
quote:
pooling their brains
No, that's what illithids do. 
quote:
and coming up with stuff to improve their quality of life,
They do this, routinely.
quote:
getting out of underground holes,
Do you really think they want to?
Remember, they commonly get tempted by Vhaerun or Eilistraee via dream visions.
Those who want, respond and/or join merchants or mercenaries if they can.
Most don't want to live in daylight any more than humans want to live underground.
quote:
etc...
There's a lot of etc going on, too. 
Lolth as a rule does not bother with trivialities until something jeopardises her plans or theocracy (and occasionally even then). Because hey, maybe it can be useful for a later plan. Thus: chaos! |
| Gyor |
Posted - 18 Jun 2019 : 23:30:10
In 5e Drow are one of the most powerful races, with all kinds of great goodies, but at the cost of also being one of the most vulnerable ones, sunlight is blinding for them some what. This is much less of a disadvantage in Dungeon Delves like Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, then say wondering across a desert at midnoon. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Jun 2019 : 02:45:45
Growth as in pooling their brains and coming up with stuff to improve their quality of life, getting out of underground holes, etc... |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Jun 2019 : 02:22:14
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Indeed. It comes from plot armor--the very same plot that makes the majority of a race of "highly-intelligent" beings still follow a deity that does nothing but make them miserable and limit their growth :P
What growth?
They survive in Underdark and keep as much of population as their caves can support (excess is expended in tests and raids). |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 17 Jun 2019 : 06:48:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But there's more to life than raw stats. Evil can be stronger, faster, harder, better ... and it's also nasty business.
The "Good", weaker, slower, softer, dumber elves can lead fulfilling and wholesome lives filled with frolicking in the sunshine instead of constantly keeping their blades sharp for opportunity and betrayal. There's also something to be said about having a higher purpose to your existence than dark servitude to demonic powers.
To be fair, that applies only to the priesthoods. That one drow city run by wizards generally doesn't put up with that kind of thinking. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 21:33:27
Very true, but as realms fanatics we will have to explain the plot armour with something that is not plot armour, and thus provide further depth to the wondrous setting. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 21:01:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Sparta was a suitably harsh parallel, but their ascendancy was short lived, and by the time of the romans their power was spent.
Therefore the drows strength should come from more than just their culture to explain their dominance in large parts of the underdark for so long
Indeed. It comes from plot armor--the very same plot that makes the majority of a race of "highly-intelligent" beings still follow a deity that does nothing but make them miserable and limit their growth :P |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 13:08:04
Sparta was a suitably harsh parallel, but their ascendancy was short lived, and by the time of the romans their power was spent.
Therefore the drows strength should come from more than just their culture to explain their dominance in large parts of the underdark for so long |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 12:17:49
The training culture of the Drow is also harsh. They either learn to be awesome warriors, clerics, mages, etc. or risk being fodder in some kind of conflict, whether it be from outsiders or from their own kin.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 08:07:12
But there's more to life than raw stats. Evil can be stronger, faster, harder, better ... and it's also nasty business.
The "Good", weaker, slower, softer, dumber elves can lead fulfilling and wholesome lives filled with frolicking in the sunshine instead of constantly keeping their blades sharp for opportunity and betrayal. There's also something to be said about having a higher purpose to your existence than dark servitude to demonic powers. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 07:29:27
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I guess it's because they are "evil", and in D&D "evil is cool" and evil characters tend to be more powerful by plot (ie. Cyric, Tiamat, etc.)
It's not so much evil characters as dev pet characters. There are at least two other evil dragon deities, but all we get is Tiamat. Bane, Loviatar, Talos, Malar, Velsharoon all exist but with Shar around you'd think that there's only one evil deity in the Faerunian pantheon.
At least 5e brings us a new...haha no, we still get Tiamat. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Jun 2019 : 07:13:52
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, they were as powerful as any other race in 4e, thanks to the game balance of that edition. There were not overpowered races or clases in 4e.
But dude, there are Dragonborn and Tieflings! Like Soo powerful! And then you got Genasi....[/sarcasm]
Classes tho, I gotta disagree with you on. There are good classes (PHB ones like Ranger, Fighter, Warlord, Wizard) and bad ones (vampire, Bladesinger, Seeker, Binder). While the disparity isn't nearly as great as it is in 3.x/PF, it is noticable. My buddy has an elf thief (essentials class) and another is a Drow (haha, funny enough) Assassin|Rogue and the Drow is just amazing by comparison. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 21:56:42
Because Lolth and her followers destroy those who don't stand out. She's even got a test that if they fail to shine, she turns them into a bloated half-spider/half-drow centaur known as a drider. Those who don't stand out prior to that are probably used for sacrifice or die in training. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 19:57:51
I guess it's because they are "evil", and in D&D "evil is cool" and evil characters tend to be more powerful by plot (ie. Cyric, Tiamat, etc.)
Also, they were as powerful as any other race in 4e, thanks to the game balance of that edition. There were not overpowered races or clases in 4e. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 18:15:38
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
If you read arcane age empire of elves, there is mention of elves being able to see magic, however elves today only have infra vision or dark vision.
Older elves used to live a lot longer and seem more powerful than today's elves.
Black staff the novel mentioned elves mingling with humans since the crown wars, there are no pure blooded elves left.
So given that drow split from elves during the crown wars and base drow are more powerful than base elves, I'm suggesting that perhaps the drow are more representative of pure blood elves.
Also since noble drow are even more powerful than base drow, this suggests the nobility breeding with more powerful stock (like demons and devils) which we know they did (gargauth was part of one breeding program).
Just a thought or two and it's what I'm intending in my FR at some point.
I don't recall that quote, but I'm thinking it's an exaggeration. There would have to be large-scale, frequent, continuous breeding with humans, all over the planet, to have an overall diluting effect. A few half-elves here and there are not going to impact the entire race -- it's a drop of water in the ocean.
Even if there had been large-scale interbreeding in the past, thousands of years of racial isolation since then would see the human blood bred back out. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 16:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
So, in game terms, Drow are significantly more powerful than their elven cousins, at least in 3.X (I can't remember/never learned their stats from 2E or 4E+).
It came from before, so we have to look at earlier versions.
AD&D2 stats:
Aquatic Elf: +1 Dex -1 Int
Drow: +2 Dex +1 Int -2 Cha -1 Con, XP cost +20%
Grey Elf: +2 Int +1 Dex -2 Con -1 Str, XP cost +15%
High Elf: +1 Dex -1 Con
Sylvan Elf: +1 Str +1 Dex -1 Con -1 Cha
quote:
3.X, they get spell resistance, several very useful spell-like abilities, darkvision, and bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha.
They still get Con penalty like most elves, and the Darkvision makes sense because of living underground so long. But why are they so much more dexterous, charismatic and intelligent compared to many other elves, and why the SLA's and spell resistance?
SLA and resistance are supposedly Lolth's blessings, but practically, it's how their radiation magic system works after being changed and given access to a new source of sustenance (thus gradually losing it on surface, etc).
quote:
Are they Lolth's blessings, or were they natural evolutions?
Well, their next door neighbours usually are illithids, beholders and/or duergar, and their roommates are other drow, so... |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 09:57:37
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
3.X, they get spell resistance, several very useful spell-like abilities, darkvision, and bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha.
They still get Con penalty like most elves, and the Darkvision makes sense because of living underground so long. But why are they so much more dexterous, charismatic and intelligent compared to many other elves, and why the SLA's and spell resistance? Are they Lolth's blessings, or were they natural evolutions? Does it have something to do with being exposed to faerzress for so long?
And if it's Lolth's blessing, why wouldn't Corellon have blessed other elves in similar fashion?
Keep in mind their +2 Level Adjustment and the fact that base Drow in 3.5 are simply warriors (NPC class) so they're not that powerful. Their scariest aspect is Drow poison because Fort DC 13 isn't easy to combat at low-level. Assume a PC Fighter gets Con 14, that's still only a 55% chance you succeed in making that save. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 09:52:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Drow popularity still simmers and flares but it's mostly subsided because RAS slowed down and 4E offered so many other overpowered playable race choices.
Like humans and half-elves? Actually Drow got a bit of a Nerf in 4e as they had to choose between darkness and faerie fire (core 4e says they get both, oh well). Honestly half-elves are one of the best races in 4e, a significant change from their mediocre 3.5 counterpart. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 08:19:39
If you read arcane age empire of elves, there is mention of elves being able to see magic, however elves today only have infra vision or dark vision.
Older elves used to live a lot longer and seem more powerful than today's elves.
Black staff the novel mentioned elves mingling with humans since the crown wars, there are no pure blooded elves left.
So given that drow split from elves during the crown wars and base drow are more powerful than base elves, I'm suggesting that perhaps the drow are more representative of pure blood elves.
Also since noble drow are even more powerful than base drow, this suggests the nobility breeding with more powerful stock (like demons and devils) which we know they did (gargauth was part of one breeding program).
Just a thought or two and it's what I'm intending in my FR at some point. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 04:27:18
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
So, in game terms, Drow are significantly more powerful than their elven cousins, at least in 3.X (I can't remember/never learned their stats from 2E or 4E+).
3.X, they get spell resistance, several very useful spell-like abilities, darkvision, and bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha.
They still get Con penalty like most elves, and the Darkvision makes sense because of living underground so long. But why are they so much more dexterous, charismatic and intelligent compared to many other elves, and why the SLA's and spell resistance? Are they Lolth's blessings, or were they natural evolutions? Does it have something to do with being exposed to faerzress for so long?
And if it's Lolth's blessing, why wouldn't Corellon have blessed other elves in similar fashion?
I think it's an evolutionary thing -- an unnatural selection, if you will; a survival of the fittest driven purely by their society. The more dexterous, charismatic, and intelligent drow are those able to survive the power struggles of drow society and thus pass on their traits. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Jun 2019 : 01:28:03
Drow are powerful because drow are popular.
They started off as an elite 1E monster race which inspired Drizzt. They grew in power as Drizzt carried them to 2E Menzo/Underdark expansions. They thrived all across 3E and got another boost of mania from each bestseller Drizzt novel release. Drow popularity still simmers and flares but it's mostly subsided because RAS slowed down and 4E offered so many other overpowered playable race choices. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Jun 2019 : 23:28:57
It was mostly the faerzress exposure, but that heavily depends on the edition. In 5e, they are quite weak compared to other races. |
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