| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bragi |
Posted - 12 Jan 2019 : 07:50:27
Here's a rough draft of a human origins chart that I'm working on. It's partially cannon with some logical connections added.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7x11ckag1w3nqsj/Origins.pdf
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bragi |
Posted - 13 Apr 2024 : 07:55:06
I hope to continue working on this in the future and am reflecting on your comments in light of the recently released lore video.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/mysterious-102218179?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_fan&utm_content=join_link
Knowing that both the Snow Elves and the Maraloi both worship Tarsellis Meunniduin and that the Maraloi have underground labyrinths, there is strong evidence that the two races are connected. It wouldn't surprise me if the elven migration followed the human migration or vice versa.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
SIDEBAR: FEY in Kara-Tur
I just found this reference in the Kara-Tur boxed set, and the part about iron being poisonous to this was something that rang to the idea of fey long ago being in Kara-Tur. I'm thinking possibly even some relation to the "snow elves" that eventually spread to Pasocada basin. Possibly even via the same paths that the Azuposi eventually follow?
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| Baltas |
Posted - 24 Jan 2020 : 09:56:54
A well done chart, but I wonder, from were you got the connection of Shaaran peoples to Old Cormanthans, and Chondathans in general? I ask, as I'm myself in part interested, due it also fitting my theories about Talfir, Shaarans and Jaamdathi (which you also have), by seeing the Talfiric language (Telfir), is also a member of Akalaic family group (ie related to Shaaran). |
| Bragi |
Posted - 18 Jan 2020 : 08:12:29
(This is a placeholder - tbd)
Relationship #11 Northmen to Uthgardt
Forgotten Realms Boxed Set
quote:
When the first civilized humans emigrated into the Savage North, they found the land already inhabited by humans. These were a
dark-haired, blue-eyed people, a large and hardy folk descended from savages, outcasts and refugees of Netheril, and early explorers.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Jan 2020 : 08:11:12
Always bear in mind that sometimes the sources are incorrect.
There are a few places in serpent kingdoms where it claims that the empire of mhairshaulk controlled a vast empire from chult to the endless wastes (or something ridiculously far away). When in fact they really only controlled the land around the chultan peninsula, while other sarrukh nations or sarrukh factions controlled the land elsewhere.
The rengarth people were ulou in origin I believe and thus came down from the far north as the ulou people did in narfell and the hordelands
The humans in mhairshaulk were a proto tashalaran people (purebred of that race no longer exist). I suspect that this group were brought to mhairshaulk from the lands around okoth, and another group were taken to the north by the isstosseffifil sarrukh |
| Bragi |
Posted - 17 Jan 2020 : 07:14:30
Relationship #10* Northmen to Angardt
This relationship will be moved to "Rengarth to Angardt". It will be identified as cannonical.
From Nethril Empire of Magic
quote:
The Angardt tribes didn’t exist until 2477; before then, they were simply a faction of barbarians within the Rengarth who
weren’t as superstitious of magic use.
-1382 DR.
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| Bragi |
Posted - 17 Jan 2020 : 06:19:59
I'm not sure if you missed the updates but I edited it shortly after posting it and came to the same conclusions that you did.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Hi Bragi
Looks like you are using the Brian James "off the internet" Grand History of the Realms which in the proto-Realms contained much lore of his own creation. Not all of that lore transitioned into the published Grand History of the Realms (ala the tarrasque stuff you reference) and so has no "official" status.
Yes exactly that's why I said the relationship will be identified as unofficial. Refer to my earlier post where I called it out more explicitly.
quote:
Much of the information on the early human races comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" by Brian R. James. This fan made material was the pre-cursor to the later "the Grand History of the Realms" and as such is not strictly cannon; however, it's probably as close to cannon as one can get.
I'll likely be referencing it more, both because I am a fan of his work and also because I have found it to be very useful on this topic. I consider it semi-cannonical. The materials have a slightly different name, "A Grand History..." vs "the Grand History"
quote:
Similarly, I don't see how there is any relationship between the Rengarth and the Northmen. The Northmen mingled with Low Netherese refugees fleeing the fall of Netheril from 95 DR onwards to form the Uthgardt. The Rengarth occupied what is now southern Anauroch and likely became the precursors of the nomads in the Tunlands asthey fled south to avoid the encroaching desert that destroyed their grasslands.
I agree, that's the same conclusion that I came to when I posted it. I had in my chart a relationship between them and then when I did more research and wrote up the post realized there couldn't be relationship because of the timeline. That's why I posted that the relationship would be moved from the Northmen to the Mhairshaulk to give it a connection to the tarrasque. My point for posting the information on the Northmen was to show that the intial relationship in the chart had been disproven.
quote:
This relationship will be moved from the Northmen #9 to the Mhairshaulk #2.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 16 Jan 2020 : 22:35:19
Hi Bragi
Looks like you are using the Brian James "off the internet" Grand History of the Realms which in the proto-Realms contained much lore of his own creation. Not all of that lore transitioned into the published Grand History of the Realms (ala the tarrasque stuff you reference) and so has no "official" status.
Similarly, I don't see how there is any relationship between the Rengarth and the Northmen. The Northmen mingled with Low Netherese refugees fleeing the fall of Netheril from 95 DR onwards to form the Uthgardt. The Rengarth occupied what is now southern Anauroch and likely became the precursors of the nomads in the Tunlands asthey fled south to avoid the encroaching desert that destroyed their grasslands.
-- George Krashos
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| Bragi |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 11:05:02
Relationship #10 Northmen to Rengarth
This relationship will be moved from the Northmen #9 to the Mhairshaulk #2. This relationship will be identified as unoffical.
source: A Grand History of the Realms
-29,500 DR
quote:
In the south, the fragility of the first human civilizations was evident as the forces of the dreadful Tarrasque pushed southward from the Black Sea.
-27,500 DR
quote:
In Katashaka, Tarrasque’s grip over humanity loosened allowing the steppe peoples to pioneer the use of horses. This development enhanced their nomadic lifestyle giving the human tribes sufficient speed and mobility to manage large herds over vast ranges.
-25,000 DR The Fall of Ostoria
quote:
The Reign of Giants had come to an end and the Colossal Kingdom now occupied only the northernmost edge of Faerûn.
-24,000 DR The Sundering
quote:
Other human tribes also found themselves abandoned on mainland Faerûn cut off from their homeland on Katashaka.
Here is my attempt to fill in some of the blanks.
The Tarrasque, having originated from somewhere around the Black Sea, emerges upon humanity.
In the ensuing 2,000 years the Tarrasque remained near Katashaka. Perhaps growing tired and attempting to return home the Tarrasque retreats. This would offer the humans a chance to follow, collecting the meat left behind by the Tarrasque. This could have also provided a shield from other predators such as dragons and opened up passage for a group of humans in to the interior of Faerun.
In the next 3,500 years the followers of the Tarrasque, now known as the gar people, follow it up along the coast of the dragon controlled area to the edge of fallen Ostoria. Here they find ruins of the giant's kingdom. Then The Sundering occurs which severs all links to the other tribes of humanity and the gar people are forgotten.
I'm making some logical assumptions here that are completely non-cannon.
- We know that the Tarrasque came from the Black Sea region. After it "loosened its grip" i'm assuming that it went back in that direction.
- I'm assuming that humans could have followed the Tarrasque back using it is a shield against the dragons. The next reported location of the Tarrasque is in the lands of the Angardt barbarians so it may have originated and returned there.
- The gar people could not have originated from the Northmen as they were known to be living in the region well before -3,655 DR and the Northmen didn't enter the region until around -1,600 DR
Sidebar: Tracking the Tarrasque
From A Grand History of the Realms, -27,500 DR, the Tarrasque first shows up from the Black Sea and heads towards Katashaka.
From Nethril: Empire of Magic, -339 DR, The Tarrasque was living in the Purple Hills when it's liver was harvested to be used as a spell component.
From TWM 3, 1001 DR, the Tarrasque wakes up in Katashaka.
From The Mines of Bloodstone, 1357 DR, The Tarrasque is residing within the Temple of Orcus,
In Grand History of the Realms it mentions that in –3655 DR "The tribal lands of the Rengarth are absorbed into Netheril, although the barbarians remain largely autonomous." This establishes that the Rengarth existed long before -3655 DR.
FR5 - The Savage North states that the Northmen arrived around 500 years before the retreat from Illefarn. That means the Northmen arrived around -1600 DR.
Nethril: Empire of Magic
quote:
The Angardt tribes didn’t exist until 2477; before then, they were simply a faction of barbarians within the Rengarth
The North Boxed Set
quote:
Uthgardt Barbarians - The Uthgardt are a black-haired and blue-eyed folk descended from a mixture of Northmen, Netherese, and a few savage tribes.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Jan 2019 : 13:19:40
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
It's hardly important, but aren't the Mulan descended from slaves taken by the Imaskari from Mesopotamia as well as from Egypt?
That's a belief, but not a canon fact. It very well could be that since Abeir had no weave, they could have been taken from there, or some other world. Some would say that there were no gods on Abeir, but if you look at many of the Untheric pantheon, they could easily be powers with ties to elementalism and dragons or death (which some tie to decay and negative elemental energy). Enlil- god of storms, Ishtar - goddess of rain, Utu sun/fire deity, Marduk a deity of winds/storms, Ramman a deity of wind/storms, Ki the nature goddess, Assuran of the three thunders, Nergal death, etc... and given that they came over in an immortal form, it very well could be something wherein they were some of the "dawn titans" and there's truly a misunderstanding as to what that conflict was about. Now, I'm not necessarily proposing that as the option, just showing how the idea that they have to come from earth isn't ingrained. |
| BadLuckBugbear |
Posted - 22 Jan 2019 : 12:32:03
It's hardly important, but aren't the Mulan descended from slaves taken by the Imaskari from Mesopotamia as well as from Egypt?
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Jan 2019 : 00:20:06
The portal network was created by the Ba'etith in my Realms. The Ilythiiri just took over one part of it and enhanced it for their own use.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2019 : 19:31:45
Hmmm, I could have sworn I read Shield of Weeping Ghosts, but I don't remember that. Didn't it have one of the Durthans in it? If its that one, I remember enjoying the read, but reading it so fast that I don't remember any details now. This does fit with some of what I was guessing last year at one point though, that that portal network may have been elven. It would be interesting if that portal network predated the elven sundering, and the sundering caused a linkage with Abeir to kick in. I may have to reread that, as I do like the novels featuring Rashemen.
On the idea of having the "northmen" wandering because one island left, I think that's a grand idea. So, in essence, maybe the island was split to Abeir long ago, elven sundering brings it to Toril, then maybe something undocumented that the Imaskari do (like that building of a godswall) sends one of the two BACK to Abeir. If it were the Imaskari Planar barrier, that would be in -4366 DR. This fits the timeline roughly wherein the "men from the west settle Ruathym" in -3100 DR.... i.e. they slowly migrate around, probably along the northern cost of Anchorome and the islands off the coast of Anchorome.
BTW, on the idea of the two islands, having one island be pretty much humans and some other races and the other ones be humans on a portion, and other parts untamed with say frost/hill/stone/cloud giants and various types of dragons that favor cold (white, fang, steel, shadow, deep, cryohydra, dragon turtle, etc..) would fit some of the classic concepts and allow for a Council of Wyrms/"how to tame your dragon" type campaign.
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| Bragi |
Posted - 21 Jan 2019 : 18:37:24
As a follow-up to my last post, the timeline for AO splitting Abeir and Toril is -31,000 DR. This occurs before the Sundering and likely before human migration across the entire continent which causes a small question of how did the humans get to Aurune in the first place? I think one possible answer ties in to your mention of dragon subjugation. What if a dragon or group of dragons tried to "domesticate" proto-humans and brought them back to Aurune at a very early date (before -31,000 DR). I want to becareful to avoid having two modern dragon dominated islands/continents. (see my post about relationship #7). But, I think that might be easy to resolve.
Initially, when dragons ruled, they domesticated a group of proto-humans and carried them to Aurune. (sometime before (-31,000 DR). Then when Abeir and Toril split, Aurune was thrust in to Abeir and the Dragon-overlords found that their fellow dragons in Abeir were enslaved by the primordials. One of the dragons from Aurune was Gorloun who freed the dragons and founded the first dragon empire on Abeir; abandoning the humans and the island of Aurune. Meanwhile, back on Toril, the humans on Braaklosia started their journey to find lost Aurune and became the northmen..
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| Bragi |
Posted - 21 Jan 2019 : 09:45:42
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I wouldn't move Aurune, but this is a good reminder. The idea that Aurune was from Abeir, and possibly dragon subjugated, is a good one. If they also fought "the children of the dawn titans" which were some kind of giant, it would fit better too. I wouldn't move Aurune on Toril though, excepting possibly sending it back to Abeir in the last hundred years. On the idea of the "northmen" coming from the south, since we see the worship of Tyr and Helm down where the Talfir were AND we also see temples to the Norse gods in the desert of desolation, AND we also have these spontaneous appearances of the Rus and "Illuskans" via some portal network in the Shaar and in Ashanath… perhaps when Abeir lost Aurune, it also lost some "Northmen" that appeared in the lands that become Unther/Chessenta/Mulhorand. I'm not talking in the last 1000 years or anything. I'm talking WAAAYYY back. Like maybe the Elven Sundering is what brought Aurune to Toril from Abeir or somesuch and possibly these other humans. These might be the precursors of the Talfir. We might even find out that the portal network periodically links to Abeir, and possibly not at "synched time"... it might glitch and pull people from Abeir's past or future.
There are technically two islands up there, one that I'm calling Aurune and the other one that I'm calling Braaklosia. What if the Northmen primarily lived on Aurune but had a small village on Braaklosia. Let's say that Braaklosia was fairly barren and the village had to rely on Aurune for much of its goods. Now when AO comes along and splits Abeir and Toril, Aurune goes to Abeir and only Braaklosia is left on Toril.
The Northmen from Braaklosia try to sail over to Aurune but it's no longer there so they set off to find it. The begin to travel south to Anchorome and then from there along the coast, all of the time looking for their lost homeland. They stumble upon an elven portal network and start to spread out across Faerun but after several generations of intermarrying with local populations begin to loose their cultural identity. One group which does not go through the portal network continues down Maztica and over to the Sword Coast.
They are constantly on the move because they are looking for their lost homeland of Aurune. The make their way back up the Sword Coast and the search continues. During the Spellplague, Aurune returns to Toril along with the ancestors of the Northmen who have evolved so much over the past 32k years that the Northmen don't recognize them anymore. It's possible that the Northmen eventually find Aurune and believe that foreigners have stolen their eden and a war breaks out. That could lead to a lot of interesting possibilities.
btw: the Ashane to Shaar portal network is explained in the novel "The Shield of Weeping Ghosts." It's a really interesting read. The portal was originally created by the Ilythiir when they lived on the surface as part of their portal network. They abandoned it during the Crown Wars to join up with the other Ilythiir who lived south of the Shaar and were presumably survivors from Attornash. Much later the Nars founded the city of Shandaular at the site of the portal network and also used it for commerce with the Shaar until the city was destroyed in a civil war.
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| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Jan 2019 : 08:44:14
There is nothing about human ethnicities of Abeir in canon, so if you don't mind, I going to steal them.
Abeir did had special bloodlines, tho. For instance, we have the dragonheirs of Laerakond.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonheir
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Jan 2019 : 10:23:54
I wouldn't move Aurune, but this is a good reminder. The idea that Aurune was from Abeir, and possibly dragon subjugated, is a good one. If they also fought "the children of the dawn titans" which were some kind of giant, it would fit better too. I wouldn't move Aurune on Toril though, excepting possibly sending it back to Abeir in the last hundred years. On the idea of the "northmen" coming from the south, since we see the worship of Tyr and Helm down where the Talfir were AND we also see temples to the Norse gods in the desert of desolation, AND we also have these spontaneous appearances of the Rus and "Illuskans" via some portal network in the Shaar and in Ashanath… perhaps when Abeir lost Aurune, it also lost some "Northmen" that appeared in the lands that become Unther/Chessenta/Mulhorand. I'm not talking in the last 1000 years or anything. I'm talking WAAAYYY back. Like maybe the Elven Sundering is what brought Aurune to Toril from Abeir or somesuch and possibly these other humans. These might be the precursors of the Talfir. We might even find out that the portal network periodically links to Abeir, and possibly not at "synched time"... it might glitch and pull people from Abeir's past or future. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 20 Jan 2019 : 00:31:11
Relationship #9 Aurune to Northmen
Here is a quote that I found in another thread. [http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18769]
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
You guys want to read the first couple of pages of FR5 The Savage Frontier to see how the original rise of humans in the North occurred. Canon has deviated somewhat from what is in there, but the main points are that originally North as we know it was dominated by the humans known as the Ice Hunters. The people of Netheril appear to have "always been there" but then finally unified together and swiftly grew in power thanks to the Art, and the Northmen were actually from the South.
quote:
I'm pretty sure that I decided that the Northmen came from the "unknown lands to the west" when I was doing my North Timelines over a decade ago and he weave fit into the write-up or he came up with it and I weaved it into my timeline.
Maybe they came from Aurune, down the northern coastline of Anachorome and then across to Faerun. I'm not sure how to reconcile the idea that they came from the south and then gradually moving north as this would have them moving in the opposite direction from North to South.
In the same thread here's what Eric Boyd had to say
quote:
Lots of cool ideas here George. I do remember having the idea that the arakhor could be the origin of the HostTower, in some fashion. I also remember thinking (at least at one point) that the "Northmen" came to the Sword Coast from another world (Earth?) through portals in the Trackless Sea. This would be consistent with Ed's original "Gates" article way back in the early days of Dragon. But, it could be that we started leaning the other way (Northmen came from elsewhere in the Realms) in later Realmslore and I'm not remembering it quite right.
Then later again Dazzlerdal commented that he had the Northmen coming from Abeir.
I like these ideas and I'm trying to determine how they can all come together as a whole.
Maybe Aurune is from Abeir. Maybe some of the northmen left before Abeir separated from Toril. Maybe Aurune was in a different location then, further south and then when it re-appeared it had moved north. Abeir is a weakness of mine as I didn't dive in to much lore during the whole returned Abeir time period so I don't know if what I'm saying is even reasonable.
I think there were some other discussions around this that I may be missing.
I'm posting this for now and will do some more searching later. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 22:51:09
Relationship #8 ?
Looks like I mis-numbered the chart and there is no #8.
Leaving this here for me to fix in the next version. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 22:39:49
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I Understand where the reference came from now, but I'd honestly recommend against it (as much as I appreciate Brian and his work, noone is perfect and everyone sometimes gets an idea that's not the best. This may even be why it was pulled from the official grand history). There's already something in City of Gold that hints to where the Azuposi came from, and it specifically points out that the Azuposi don't seem to share commonalities to anyone in Faerun, but more of a link to Kara-Tur.
Right, well we know that the Azuposi came from Kara-Tur that's not really in question and doesn't invalidate the possibility that they eventually branched off to become the Illuskans.
The fact that they had Kara-Turan (sp) features when they came all the way over to Maztica is clear but over generations of integrating in to Maztica their appearance would have gradually merged with the local population.
The book doesn't say that the modern Azuposi do not share commonalities to anyone in Faerun, it says that the Auzposi ancestors didn't share commonalities with anyone in Faerun. It's reinforcing the idea that they came from kara-tur. It's talking specifically about the appearance of the Azuposi ancestors not the appearance of modern Azuposi. In fact, I looked through all of the City of Gold and couldn't find one reference to their physical features.
I'm open to changing it if there is a consensus that is should be changed but I'll have to think about it more, after I've gone through all of the connections.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You even note this, because you note the link to the Wu-Haltai. Its more likely that the Azuposi are related to a group of Kara-Turans who came to Anchorome via the underdark relatively recently (and by that, I'm thinking in the last few thousand years... so still a long time.). There's even a lost tribe known as the Tayanulchi that went north into the land of "Snow Demons" to seek a land rich in reindeer, etc... which sounds very much like the Poscadari elf story where they came from a land of snow to a land of rich hunting.
Hmmm looks like I'm missing the Tayanulchi. I'll add them in the next version.
About the Maraloi. I'm trying to stick to purely human races. Why is why you don't see the Shadar-Kai on my chart. I know there are some exceptions where other races mated with humans so I may need to add them if they did mate with humans. I was thinking about the Dath and Wealdath people to be more in to the nature side of things and have them be the genesis for the druidic language but that's not necessary fey blood.
About the Tayanulchi. Yes, I have them at 58. I'll get there eventually.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 13:56:43
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm relooking again at your chart, and at 62 it shows what appears a link from Azuposi to Illuskans. I would not recommend this or would like to hear why you would link them. I'd more recommend linking the Illuskans to the Northmen you show at 9. I'd also put links from the Illuskans and Rus to Rashemi and Arkaiuns (btw, misspelling on Arkaiuns).
I plan on revisiting this but while I have it in front of me I'm just putting this here for now.
The connection between the Azuposi to the Illuskans is written in "A Grand History of the Realms" the fan created one by Brian R. James. It is on page 11.
quote:
In the wake of the Sundering, many humans of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faerun or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By -3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.
I'd really like to keep it because of the great respect that I have for his work and the contributions that he's made in smoothing out and filling in a lot of continuity.
BTW, let me first say, thanks for being cool with the debate. Its often how I find out things like what you just posted, but I also find it often helps bring out things better, and I'm really appreciating the work effort you put into this.
I Understand where the reference came from now, but I'd honestly recommend against it (as much as I appreciate Brian and his work, noone is perfect and everyone sometimes gets an idea that's not the best. This may even be why it was pulled from the official grand history). There's already something in City of Gold that hints to where the Azuposi came from, and it specifically points out that the Azuposi don't seem to share commonalities to anyone in Faerun, but more of a link to Kara-Tur. You even note this, because you note the link to the Wu-Haltai. Its more likely that the Azuposi are related to a group of Kara-Turans who came to Anchorome via the underdark relatively recently (and by that, I'm thinking in the last few thousand years... so still a long time.). There's even a lost tribe known as the Tayanulchi that went north into the land of "Snow Demons" to seek a land rich in reindeer, etc... which sounds very much like the Poscadari elf story where they came from a land of snow to a land of rich hunting.
In trying to find the lost tribe info related to the Wu-haltai in the Kara-Tur boxed set, I ran across something interesting that might be usable for the northmen concept IF we wanted to introduce the concept of something similar to the Vanir and Aesir. We're already talking about Aurune and Myrmidune being possibly separate groups of "northmen". What if "Aurune" is the more Aesir like, and Myrmidune is the more "Vanir" like (nature)? Now, what if the Maraloi (see below for more on the Maraloi) settled on Myrmidune and eventually mated with humans there (maybe as a way to create additional guardians for their realm), creating a fair haired race of half fey that eventually became a race of humans with traces of fey blood. Maybe other "Maraloi" settled in Anchorome and became Xenophobic and didn't mate with humans, and these became the Poscadari "elves". You'll note in the above I'm being careful for the most part to say fey instead of elf, because we may find out that humans think the Poscadari are "elves" only because they are fey with pointed ears. So, basically, maybe the Maraloi left the "Northern Wastes" of Kara-Tur via underdark tunnels beneath the sea, and some went to Myrmidune and others went to Anchorome. Possibly the tunnels to Myrmidune were collapsed over time? Later these Wu-Haltai humans of Tayanulchi clan go north and find the tunnels of the Maraloi in the "underground secrets of the Ancient Lords". It COULD even be interesting if we have these Maraloi be the rough equivalent of Mystara's Shadow Elves (which is something like what they're trying to do with the Shadar-Kai now), but with some of them actually breaking away to return to the surface. In fact, if we used the shadar-kai, and we used those vulture men from Mord's Tome of Foes over in Anchorome where the aearee cultures were rumored to be... hmmm, thoughts.
From City of Gold
Myth and History: Creation or Migration?
According to their myth of creation, the Azuposi believe they came from the ground; that they were called forth by Skeleton Man, who showed them plants to grow and fire for light and warmth. It may be that the Azuposi actually did come from the ground; perhaps, like the
desert dwarves, they came through the Underdark of the world's crust. Given their physical appearance and language, however, the Azuposi ancestors probably did not come from the continent of the Forgotten
Realms, but from the oriental lands of Kara-Tur. Indeed, future
scholars may discover remarkable commonalities between the languages of the Azuposi and the Wu-haltai and other races of Kara-Tur's Northern Wastes.
From Kara-Tur boxes set, a possible tribe that went into the ground and came to Anchorome???
After battling a bakemono horde at the Hill of Namaskar, Queen Triala of the Tayanulchi decided that her homeland was no longer safe. Guided by a divinely-inspired vision, or so she claimed, her people would leave in search of a new land. It would be a rich land where the reindeer would thrive, where the streams are almost choked with salmon, where the winters are mild and in summer the forest overflows with nourishment.
The clans elected to follow her vision; it provided more hope than what was promised by the wolfish tribes that surrounded them in the Ama Basin. Therefore they journeyed north, vengefully razing some humanoid territory on the way, into the Land of Snow Demons.
No one has since heard from the Tayanulchi, and it is unknown whether they found the land of their vision, still wander the barren tundra, or all perished in the northern ice.
SIDEBAR: FEY in Kara-Tur
I just found this reference in the Kara-Tur boxed set, and the part about iron being poisonous to this was something that rang to the idea of fey long ago being in Kara-Tur. I'm thinking possibly even some relation to the "snow elves" that eventually spread to Pasocada basin. Possibly even via the same paths that the Azuposi eventually follow?
Maraloi
This legendary race of men, or possibly spirit folk, ruled the Northern Wastes in millenia past. They were tall and fair and wielded powerful, alien magic. They used weapons and tools of bronze because iron was poisonous to them. The Maraloi (which means, "ancient lords" in Pazruk) were the particular foes of oni, ogre magi, and lesser humanoids, and managed to keep the upper hand until iron was introduced into common use in the Ama Basin. It is not known whether
all of the Maraloi were slain, or if they departed, or if they became assimilated into human populations. The Maraloi figure most prominently in the legends of the Pazruki, since ruins and relics of the vanished race are so often discovered in isolated valleys of the
Koryaz Mountains. Among the Pazruki, a child of exceptionally light compexion or (most unusually) fair hair, is said to have the mark of the Maraloi. It is taken as a portent of great promise for magical ability.
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Valley of Nanayok
This valley is believed to have been the cultural and political center of the Maraloi. The valley is overflowing with ruins, most little more than piles of crumbling stones, covered by vegetation. Rumors speak of underground places here holding the secrets of the Ancient Lords. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 08:58:02
Relationship #7 Northern Maztican People to Myrmidune
Like relationships 4 & 5 there is virtually no officially published information on Myrmidune. There is a vague reference to it in "The Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" as the island of "Aerie Enclaves" where the avian creator race existed in the pre-history of the realms. It is also mentioned briefly in the Candlekeep Compendium Volume IV as having first been inhabited by dragons.
I like the idea of having a Council of Wyrms-like setting and see that as a natural extension of the idea that this land is a dragon refuge. This would also be a good opportunity for a location in the Forgotten Realms where dragonborn exist. This says nothing, however, regarding the presence of humans on the land.
I placed this relationship here simply due to geographic closeness with the "Northern Maztican People." Since I am associating the
"Northern Maztican People" with several other undocumented lands it makes sense to include them here as well. There may not have been any humans dwelling on this land or the humans that were once here evolved in to the modern dragonborn.
This relationship will be identified on the chart as unofficial. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 08:25:22
Relationship #6 Northern Maztican People to Itzas
In the Maztica Boxed Set under the title of Human Population is the following information
quote:
Far Payit is host to a sizable population of humans ... The name of the people themselves goes back to the roots of their greatest city, for they are known as the Itzas.
This provides concrete evidence that the Payit people are descended from an earlier group known as the Itzas.
In "A Grand History of the Realms" under the -31,500 DR timeline there is a map showing the Payit people located in, what would later become Maztica. I believe this is the same population that is being referenced as "Northern Maztican People" later in the text. After the Sundering and the contents drifted, segments of the "Northern Maztican Population" living in (Braaklosia, Aurune, And Myrmidune) would have been isolated from the mainland, and over time evolved into their own human races. The part of the population from the Northern Maztican proto-race that remained on the mainland would have evolved into the Itzas.
This relationship will be identified as semi-canonical on the chart. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 07:43:08
Relationship #5 Northern Maztican People to Aurune
Similar to Braaklosia there is no published realmslore on Aurune. Ed did provide the name for the land here.
[http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12023]
Sleyvas has speculated in the past [http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21187] the the Northmen came from Aurune and I see nothing that would contradict this. I also like this idea because it makes the Northmen more than just an honorary title. They literally would have originated in the far north.
This relationship will be identified on the chart as unofficial. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 19 Jan 2019 : 07:15:56
Relationship #4 Northern Maztican People to Braaklosia.
This is the unofficial name of the continent/island north of Anchorome. I like to use Braaklosia as the name of the eastern part of the two islands and Aurune as the western part. So that's what I am referring to here. There isn't any realmslore published about this location. Based on it's latitude, it's likely covered in permafrost. I linked it to the Northern Maztican people based on the idea that if there was human migration when the continents were closer together, it may have been possible for humans to have migrated there. The Sundering caused several humans races to become isolated and differentiated as described in "A Grand History of the Realms." That could have been the case here as well. It's also possible that there are no humans at all living on Braaklosia in which case this relationship can be ignored.
This relationship will be identified on the chart as unofficial. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 18 Jan 2019 : 20:02:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm relooking again at your chart, and at 62 it shows what appears a link from Azuposi to Illuskans. I would not recommend this or would like to hear why you would link them. I'd more recommend linking the Illuskans to the Northmen you show at 9. I'd also put links from the Illuskans and Rus to Rashemi and Arkaiuns (btw, misspelling on Arkaiuns).
I plan on revisiting this but while I have it in front of me I'm just putting this here for now.
The connection between the Azuposi to the Illuskans is written in "A Grand History of the Realms" the fan created one by Brian R. James. It is on page 11.
quote:
In the wake of the Sundering, many humans of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faerun or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By -3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.
I'd really like to keep it because of the great respect that I have for his work and the contributions that he's made in smoothing out and filling in a lot of continuity.
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| Bragi |
Posted - 18 Jan 2019 : 19:54:32
Relationship #3 Katashaka People to Lung People
Similar to relationship #2 this information also comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms."
The following is listed under the heading -24,000 DR
quote:
The celestial dragon T'ien Lung led a tribe of humans north and east to settle among the modern day lands of Semphar, Skalhoond Forest, and The Firepeaks. These humans became known as Lung, the ancestors of the Tuigan, Shou, Wang, and other human ethnicities of Kara-Tur and the Far East.
I will be indicating on the chart that this relationship is semi-canonical. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 18 Jan 2019 : 00:11:36
Thanks for your feedback, all good points that I'll reference in the discussion when I get to those. I want to go over each relationship first and check off the ones that there is general consensus on and then go back and re-arrange the others based upon what is known and what can be logically inferred. That way I don't have to spend my time creating many iterations of the chart. After I have reviewed all of them then I plan on updating the chart based upon everyone's comments to a version 1 and more if necessary.
I do plan in incorporating the great work that has been done by the Maztica Alive group and other groups including the Lopango information that you've referenced.
I believe there was some basis that I found for the Azuposi to Illuskan connection but I need to review all of it again when I get there because I definitely could be wrong about that as well.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jan 2019 : 14:04:49
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi
Relationship #2 - Katashaka People to Mhairshaulk and Northern Maztican People
Much of the information on the early human races comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" by Brian R. James. This fan made material was the pre-cursor to the later "the Grand History of the Realms" and as such is not strictly cannon; however, it's probably as close to cannon as one can get. The entry under -29,500 DR is the one that I used to base this relationship on.
quote:
In the south, the fragility of the first human civilizations was evident as the forces of the dreadful Tarrasque pushed southward from the Black Sea. The Lopango, Eshowe, Thinguth, and Tabaxi tribes were conquered, their culture subsumed by the newly formed empire of Katashaka. Only the humans of northern Maztica, under the protection of the feathered serpent Qotal, escaped enslavement.
This is the first evidence in a long line of history that the conquest and enslavement of humanity was the rule for early humanity. The arrival of the Tarrasque was a major event which triggered the branching of several races of humanity. My interpretation of this is slightly different than what is given in the source. It has the northern Maztica people already established before the arrival of the Tarrasque. I have reversed that slightly here by having the Tarrasque as the triggering for the first waves of human migration. I speculate that Qotal instigated the exodus of a group of humans to protect them from the Tarrasque when it arrived.
I will be indicating on the chart that this relationship is semi-canonical.
One thing to bear in mind here, The people who are known as "Mazticans" are interlopers who came along from the north. The Payit would then be those who followed Qotal north from Katashaka, and they eventually broke into other separate cultures it seems. Where and when the Mazticans came onto the scene would be up for debate.
I'm relooking again at your chart, and at 62 it shows what appears a link from Azuposi to Illuskans. I would not recommend this or would like to hear why you would link them. I'd more recommend linking the Illuskans to the Northmen you show at 9. I'd also put links from the Illuskans and Rus to Rashemi and Arkaiuns (btw, misspelling on Arkaiuns).
On Nimbral, I'd put a link from Halruaa to Nimbral instead of from spelljammer to Nimbral. The humans of Nimbral appear to be Halruaan exiles that worshipped Leira. They've since had contact with spelljammers, but they specifically don't bring them into the country, etc... from what's written.
On Lantanna, I am intrigued by your linking them to spelljammer, and I wonder what drove that idea. They're noted as having green eyes, copper hair, and parchment colored skin in races of Faerun, so they've specifically stayed racially pure it seems like. That may be due to isolation. But, as far as I know, they're not currently linked as a port for spelljamming. Given the hair/eye/skin colorations, I wouldn't be surprised if they were a group who worshipped the Celtic god Goibhnie (but whether that was Northmen who travelled east, pre-Talfir folk, time travellers, planar interlopers, or spelljammers that landed on and took over this island... can't say).
Also, as long as we're talking semi-canon stuff, I'd recommend including Seethyr's stuff for Lopango. He introduces kind of another "name" or ethnicity for the "Green Folk"... one which is less savage. They worship a sun god who lives "amongst" them if you consider that he has his own city that priests serve him at, and the people live elsewhere. These people are known as the Natican, and their "sun god" is Intiri. However, there should still be the "green folk" who live in the jungle, use poisoned darts, and worship nature gods. There might be cultural differences between those who live in cities and those who live more savage/tribal lifestyles, but their stock is probably similar.
BTW, these people worship Intiri the sun god, but the Kolan people worship Tezca the sun god, and both cultures are very near one another. The people of Kolan are noted as "some of the cultural traits of the Maztican Peoples have blended with the racial heritage of the green folk". Unlike the Mazticans, a chief difference is that the Kolans don't practice human sacrifice. Still, it would appear like the Kolan people turned against Intiri at some point to worship a more warlike and evil sun god (Tezca). This may be why the Lopangan peninsula has little contact with the north, because of religious differences that cause conflict.
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| Bragi |
Posted - 17 Jan 2019 : 01:08:50
Relationship #2 - Katashaka People to Mhairshaulk and Northern Maztican People
Much of the information on the early human races comes from "A Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" by Brian R. James. This fan made material was the pre-cursor to the later "the Grand History of the Realms" and as such is not strictly cannon; however, it's probably as close to cannon as one can get. The entry under -29,500 DR is the one that I used to base this relationship on.
quote:
In the south, the fragility of the first human civilizations was evident as the forces of the dreadful Tarrasque pushed southward from the Black Sea. The Lopango, Eshowe, Thinguth, and Tabaxi tribes were conquered, their culture subsumed by the newly formed empire of Katashaka. Only the humans of northern Maztica, under the protection of the feathered serpent Qotal, escaped enslavement.
This is the first evidence in a long line of history that the conquest and enslavement of humanity was the rule for early humanity. The arrival of the Tarrasque was a major event which triggered the branching of several races of humanity. My interpretation of this is slightly different than what is given in the source. It has the northern Maztica people already established before the arrival of the Tarrasque. I have reversed that slightly here by having the Tarrasque as the triggering for the first waves of human migration. I speculate that Qotal instigated the exodus of a group of humans to protect them from the Tarrasque when it arrived.
I will be indicating on the chart that this relationship is semi-canonical. |
| Bragi |
Posted - 16 Jan 2019 : 20:25:42
Relationship #1 - Human Genesis
According to the Grand History of the Realms by Brian R. James and Ed Greenwood, ape-like humans existed during the Days of Thunder. (-35,000 DR to -30,000 DR). The map on page 6 shows these primitive human tribes living on the southwestern continent. Page 30 has an entry labeled "pilgrimage of the tabaxi" where the home of humanity is named Katashaka. This also happens to be the unnamed continent on page 6. Thus, this is the foundation for humans native to Toril. I have placed them at the root of the chart indicated in racial box #1 [Katashaka People]. The origin of the species likely occurred in the early period of the Days of Thunder or prior. I think it is reasonable to assign a date of circa -35,000 DR for the modern human species. These Katashaka people are described as cave dwellers with primitive tools, similar to our real-world cavemen. They worshiped the "spirits of Katashaka."
I will be indicating on the chart that this race is established in cannon.
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