| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 13:52:52
So, I was thinking about my united tharchs of Toril, and the fact that I wanted Zulkir Lauzoril and his family to have started a school of magic in Peleveran down in the Shaar portion that I've homebrewed as having transferred to Abeir instead of collapsing. My thoughts were that "what school you went to" may be important in their society much as it is in our own. That got me to thinking about Harry Potter and Hogwarts and the four school teams. NOTE: I'm not picturing this being a school where individuals leave at level 1, etc... I'm actually picturing them staying and learning at the school into their late 20's and up to say 8th level. It would be less a dormitory scenario the older they get, and more that there would be a "college town" with houses growing up around the school.
So, I like the concept that perhaps the school is divided into different teams based upon their natural inclinations just like in HP, but I'd like a dark twist on it. I also don't want to explicitly divide based on specialization or studies, but I would like that to be a general dividing line (and there might be more than 4 teams.. maybe even 5 or 6). They should have something like a sorting hat... and sometimes this hat can be influenced OR its got a mean streak and deliberately puts someone where they'll have a rough time in order to "toughen them up or wash them out". For instance:
The Gryffindor replacement: this would be composed of mostly evokers, illusionists, and enchanters, as well as bards who come to the school to learn. They'd be all about image, flash, etc...
The Ravenclaw replacement: this would be composed of mostly diviners, abjurers, evokers, and transmuters. They'd be very direct in their thinking and methodologies, often looking for the most short term but effective solution.
The Hufflepuff replacement: This would be composed of mostly transmuters, conjurers, and enchanters. They are the worker bees of the school... only they work by organizing others to do the work for them... whether it be unseen servants, minor enchanted items, charmed individuals, or summoned workers
The Slytherin replacement: This is a team of "blooded" spellcasters, as in they consider themselves the most pure because many who is sent to this house is a sorcerer. Just to make them a little different though, they'll also have a sizable number of "Gur" with a natural tendency towards divination amongst their group. Also, the Crintri and drow who come to the school often find themselves drawn here.
a team of "dark" spellcasters : comprised of mostly conjurers and necromancers, this group will be seen with "backup" such as minor undead and fiends. A number of warlocks may also be amongst their numbers, particularly those who follow the pact of the tome (but also, I want to include many "theurgists"/"anima mages" amongst those returned to Toril... or those who study binding and wizardry both). They'll be somewhat bullyish and apt to also be the "goths" of the school. I picture them also having a militant side to their group in the form of "eldritch knights with necromancy"... I have rules for this and the "theurgist" build in my complete red book of spell strategy
Other teams: I'm also picturing a team that's focused on magic and combat whom the others make snide remarks about their intelligence (privately where they won't be heard), a team focused on magic and roguery/spying and including arcane tricksters, a team focused on item creation and golems
One of the other things I'd like to see is a focus on a couple school sports. While I picture the classic team mage duel or singular mage duel as one thing.... I do appreciate the imagery of Quidditch and the fact that young men may want to be a bit more physical. I could picture some kind of air polo with mounts instead of broomsticks. Instead of catching the snitch, maybe something able to hide very well is released, and the match is ended when its killed and the killer's team gets a sizable number of points. Maybe a portion of the points involves herding creatures alive through various points (and thus the opposing team would rather kill the herded creatures than let them get through). Noting here that these things that I'm talking about may simply be animals, and their carcasses are used afterwards for a great feast. In fact, it might be that the game is played on multiple levels... maybe some of it is confined to the ground with the players mounted on horseback.
Anyway, I better go get ready for work. I just wanted to
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| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Aug 2018 : 21:56:55
So, thinking along these lines and what I originally wrote … listing a general term below (like Researchers) to give an idea, but the following might work. I'm picturing this many different factions for Peleveran's schools, but similar "houses"/"factions" may also exist in other Tharchs.... and kind of like how there may be fraternities that cross university boundaries in our world, there might be some of these that have "satellite" factions in the major universities of other Tharchs.
motivation - Researchers (maybe "House Sage Magus"). Those who prefer to conquer through having the best magical solutions. They prefer to study magic.
motivation - Materialists (maybe "House World Shaper"... would maybe like something better fitting). Those who would like to conquer monetarily through trade, enclaves, farming, crafting, etc... and work towards magics with that goal in mind
motivation - Imperialists (maybe "House Imperion"). Those who would like to control other countries through controlling governments directly OR via puppet intermediaries
motivation - Information Brokers (maybe "House Shadowseeker"). Those who would like to perform spy work, subterfuge, and theft of intellectual property
motivation - Mercenaries (maybe "House Battlemagus"). physical combatant who likes to combine magic with melee and/or ranged weapons, or folks who want to wade into combat while wearing armor
motivation - True Bloods (maybe "House Trueblood"). Those who believe that magic should be promoted within specific families and that breeding brings out the best wizards (not specific to Mulans. The Crintri fit this mold too)
motivation - Master of Servants (maybe "House Darkfire"). Those who focus on spells to control constructs, fiends, and undead as servants, guardians, soldiers, etc....
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Aug 2018 : 16:58:40
Yes, this is similar to my original inclinations. I might want to change the names and motivations, and like you say, I can see where certain groups draw certain schools, but I'd also like it to be that any given school of magic may be drawn to at least two "houses", such that evokers will be loyal to their school and Zulkir, but they may have cross house affinities and in house rivalries just because of their alma mater. |
| Archmage of Nowhere |
Posted - 07 Aug 2018 : 16:32:43
So I took a step back and thought more about the sorting portion of Hogwarts. Would it be unreasonable to name and organize the houses based more on the life goals of the wizards? Something like
Houses:
Fateweavers - Control over Others
Lorebinders - Control over Knowledge
Worldshapers - Control over the physical world around them
Timeshacklers - Control over their own physical state of being
Loosely derived from common wizard motivations these houses would be more a reflection of a state-of-mind than political leanings or school of magic choice. With reevaluation of what schools of magic each house is known for it would look something like
*Note that in this example the schools of magic associated with the houses come as a result of the type of people who were sorted to the house, not the delineating factor that sorted them in the first place*
Worldshapers (Gryffindor) - Evocation/Invocation, Transmutation, Conjuration: For those who wish to forcefully change the world around them mostly through raw power. Subtlety considered overrated, for those who don't have the power or will to accomplish what they desire.
*Note, a good place to put sorcerers, battle mages, etc...*
Lorebinders (Ravenclaw) - Illusion, Abjuration, Divination: Those who wish to probe the depths of magic, to dive the very deepest, darkest secrets. These wizards care little for the day to day mundanities and tend to focus, to the point of unhealthy obsession, on the secrets of magic. They largely play the game of politics in Thay to get the leeway and resources to pursue their interests, the House feeling more like a alliance of convenience that a solid group identity.
Fateweavers (Hufflepuff) - Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration: For those who would leverage the production of those around them. These are your nation builders and organization leaders. Those who are placed in this house have a fundamental understanding of the value of delegation. They use those around them to accomplish their goals, only dipping into their own resources when the need is great or the time is right.
Timeshacklers (Slytherin) - (Necromancy?), Divination, Transmutation: For those who defy the will of time. Who sought magic to change and mold themselves. Ascend to a state-of-being that transcends nations, politics, or time. This can come in many forms, but the result is the same, changing themselves to a state greater than their birth.
*Note the idea here is a bit vague to accommodate a pretty wide variety of characters. Warlocks looking to become demons or eldritch horrors, wizards who seek to be liches, artificers who seek to be remade as golems, etc...*
I feel that if you base it more off of the mind set, similar to the sorting hat, you can get a neat effect of Wizards of the same house will naturally find it easier to work with each other in most cases as their goals or state-of-minds are so similar. Also I think it would be cool cause you can kind of have a alma mater effect with those wizards who graduated from this school in the same house. Not only are they a alumni and more experienced wizard they also have very similar tastes to the students in terms of research focus. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Aug 2018 : 00:29:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not go with the names of the first zulkirs?
I played with that idea, but that kind of glorifies them over the CURRENT Zulkirs, and honestly, I don't think the current Zulkirs consider themselves lesser. However, they might be willing to give a nod to those wizards from long, long ago.
BTW, I'm not absolutely stuck on the idea of naming them after ancient wizards, but so far that appears to be the best idea (and thank you fellow sages for recommending it). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Aug 2018 : 00:26:55
quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The school I'm discussing developing would have started in the last century and over in Abeir. That being said, thematically, I can't see choosing Oerthian persons. I also can't see choosing any person known to still be alive (thus Larloch) as it would glorify a living non-red wizard. Sammaster is also relatively recent as well. I like the concept though, but just thinking we'd need to limit it to truly ancient persons that are known to be dead by at least 5 centuries.
So thats a interesting topic, I'm going to keep thinking about what wizards you can use but in the meantime can I get a picture of how much information is considered fact amongst this group?
for example you say wizards that are confirmed dead for over 5 centuries but is the knowledge of Larloch being the Shadow King, and therefor still alive, common enough knowledge with this group?
Group being what ever faction or splinter we are dealing with within the Thayan structure.
Especially since they are (potentially) unaware that Hilather is Halaster and could consider him dead. I am not really stuck on the Larloch idea more for wizards yet to be considered.
Diving back into that world I had mostly forgotten I really hope there is some deep lore Dawn Titan descendant wizard somewhere I never knew of lol.
That's a very good question
This group will consist of several of the Zulkirs that are presumed dead, such as Zulkirs Lauzoril, Yaphyll, and Mythrell'aa. I'm also bringing back some others, such as Jorgmacdon and Ythazz Buvarr, and some non-Thayans such as Hercubes Jedea of Mordulkin and some non-Thayans presumed dead years ago but shaken free during the spellplague transfer to Abeir. It will also include Dmitra Flass (Lauzoril and Flass will be awakened clones). After the return, it will also include some other "lost" Zulkirs, but presumably the "house" names will be set while this school forms on Abeir. So, I presume they'll know the truth of Larloch enough to know he's alive. They may not equate Hilather to Halaster though, as I consider that a deeper mystery. Oh, and BTW, this school will exist down in the Shaar roughly northeast of the dwarven great rift. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Aug 2018 : 01:26:55
Why not go with the names of the first zulkirs? |
| Archmage of Nowhere |
Posted - 04 Aug 2018 : 18:29:37
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The school I'm discussing developing would have started in the last century and over in Abeir. That being said, thematically, I can't see choosing Oerthian persons. I also can't see choosing any person known to still be alive (thus Larloch) as it would glorify a living non-red wizard. Sammaster is also relatively recent as well. I like the concept though, but just thinking we'd need to limit it to truly ancient persons that are known to be dead by at least 5 centuries.
So thats a interesting topic, I'm going to keep thinking about what wizards you can use but in the meantime can I get a picture of how much information is considered fact amongst this group?
for example you say wizards that are confirmed dead for over 5 centuries but is the knowledge of Larloch being the Shadow King, and therefor still alive, common enough knowledge with this group?
Group being what ever faction or splinter we are dealing with within the Thayan structure.
Especially since they are (potentially) unaware that Hilather is Halaster and could consider him dead. I am not really stuck on the Larloch idea more for wizards yet to be considered.
Diving back into that world I had mostly forgotten I really hope there is some deep lore Dawn Titan descendant wizard somewhere I never knew of lol. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Aug 2018 : 12:59:24
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That's an interesting idea. I like the listing out of beasts still to help with "heraldry". Yeah, the more I thought on the concept where the "school" was founded by # spellcasters each giving their name to a "house"... the more I realized that the idea of wizardly nobility in Thay, this could really turn bad. I don't want it divided along specialization lines though, because I liked how previously you had the school divisions, but you also had the researcher and imperialist factions. Doing it along the lines out outlander magi though is possibly feasible, but it then needs to be possibly magi from before the formation of Thay (not hard, its only 500 years old) . Also, maybe if the beasts associated with the house matches their ethos. I kind of wasn't liking the idea of naming them after the beasts.
So, what archmages of the bygone eras spring to mind that aren't associated to a modern country (for instance, the shoon brings Calimshan immediately to mind, so they wouldn't want to glorify an existing country)?
Karsus, Hilather (because maybe they don't realize he's Halaster), Ioulaum … maybe make up some others.
So
The FR already has a nobility. I think magic users should remain a meritocracy. Not that there can't be families where magic is a tradition, just don't let them have hereditary titles or hereditary offices.
Just my 2 cents. That and a groat will buy you an ale!
It is a meritocracy. The names are simply to come up with a naming pattern that a society of Thayan mages would find acceptable, not giving power to their rivals, and may help define the differences in the houses. Most importantly, I'm thinking not dividing on specialization lines explicitly. Basically, there were the researchers and Imperialists previously that crossed specialization boundaries. Actually, maybe bringing back those two differentiations and say 2 or 3 more. |
| ElfBane |
Posted - 04 Aug 2018 : 11:19:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That's an interesting idea. I like the listing out of beasts still to help with "heraldry". Yeah, the more I thought on the concept where the "school" was founded by # spellcasters each giving their name to a "house"... the more I realized that the idea of wizardly nobility in Thay, this could really turn bad. I don't want it divided along specialization lines though, because I liked how previously you had the school divisions, but you also had the researcher and imperialist factions. Doing it along the lines out outlander magi though is possibly feasible, but it then needs to be possibly magi from before the formation of Thay (not hard, its only 500 years old) . Also, maybe if the beasts associated with the house matches their ethos. I kind of wasn't liking the idea of naming them after the beasts.
So, what archmages of the bygone eras spring to mind that aren't associated to a modern country (for instance, the shoon brings Calimshan immediately to mind, so they wouldn't want to glorify an existing country)?
Karsus, Hilather (because maybe they don't realize he's Halaster), Ioulaum … maybe make up some others.
So
The FR already has a nobility. I think magic users should remain a meritocracy. Not that there can't be families where magic is a tradition, just don't let them have hereditary titles or hereditary offices.
Just my 2 cents. That and a groat will buy you an ale! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Aug 2018 : 01:31:44
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
Have you read Dragon Magazine 123? It is all about developing magic schools and strongholds. page 16.
Yeah, I've been playing the game for about 38 years. I'm trying to stick specifically to the development described. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Aug 2018 : 01:28:59
quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That's an interesting idea. I like the listing out of beasts still to help with "heraldry". Yeah, the more I thought on the concept where the "school" was founded by # spellcasters each giving their name to a "house"... the more I realized that the idea of wizardly nobility in Thay, this could really turn bad. I don't want it divided along specialization lines though, because I liked how previously you had the school divisions, but you also had the researcher and imperialist factions. Doing it along the lines out outlander magi though is possibly feasible, but it then needs to be possibly magi from before the formation of Thay (not hard, its only 500 years old) . Also, maybe if the beasts associated with the house matches their ethos. I kind of wasn't liking the idea of naming them after the beasts.
So, what archmages of the bygone eras spring to mind that aren't associated to a modern country (for instance, the shoon brings Calimshan immediately to mind, so they wouldn't want to glorify an existing country)?
Karsus, Hilather (because maybe they don't realize he's Halaster), Ioulaum … maybe make up some others.
So
What comes to mind here is the archwizards of Oerth so
-Bigby
-Drawmij
-Tenser
-Mrdenkainen
But if we are looking to follow that (are dead or gone ruleset)
-Karsus
-Sammaster
-Vecna
-Arklem Greeth (kinda spicy but I think it works well for the Huffle Puff slot)
If we want to focus on Netheril in general as the two you mention are both from there we can add
-Larloch (I really like this for slytherin because of the history of Szass and Larloch
-Hilather
-Ioulaum
-Augathra the Mad (Particularly fond of Augathra's concept)
these are what jump out at me right now but a deep lore dive might unearth some more juicy candidates.
Btw these are in no particular order, noticed I grouped them in fours oddly enough. 
The school I'm discussing developing would have started in the last century and over in Abeir. That being said, thematically, I can't see choosing Oerthian persons. I also can't see choosing any person known to still be alive (thus Larloch) as it would glorify a living non-red wizard. Sammaster is also relatively recent as well. I like the concept though, but just thinking we'd need to limit it to truly ancient persons that are known to be dead by at least 5 centuries. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 03 Aug 2018 : 03:34:53
Have you read Dragon Magazine 123? It is all about developing magic schools and strongholds. page 16. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 03 Aug 2018 : 01:58:18
Seems you want to recreate Thay and Hogwarts, when Thaymount already has all of this and makes Hogwarts look like kindergarten for goody two shoe Magic Users. |
| Archmage of Nowhere |
Posted - 02 Aug 2018 : 15:19:41
In hasty review of the topic I think my list would be something like
Griffiondore - Karsus
Ravenclaw - Mordenkainen
Hufflepuff - Sammaster
Slytherin - Larloch/Vecna |
| Archmage of Nowhere |
Posted - 02 Aug 2018 : 15:13:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That's an interesting idea. I like the listing out of beasts still to help with "heraldry". Yeah, the more I thought on the concept where the "school" was founded by # spellcasters each giving their name to a "house"... the more I realized that the idea of wizardly nobility in Thay, this could really turn bad. I don't want it divided along specialization lines though, because I liked how previously you had the school divisions, but you also had the researcher and imperialist factions. Doing it along the lines out outlander magi though is possibly feasible, but it then needs to be possibly magi from before the formation of Thay (not hard, its only 500 years old) . Also, maybe if the beasts associated with the house matches their ethos. I kind of wasn't liking the idea of naming them after the beasts.
So, what archmages of the bygone eras spring to mind that aren't associated to a modern country (for instance, the shoon brings Calimshan immediately to mind, so they wouldn't want to glorify an existing country)?
Karsus, Hilather (because maybe they don't realize he's Halaster), Ioulaum … maybe make up some others.
So
What comes to mind here is the archwizards of Oerth so
-Bigby
-Drawmij
-Tenser
-Mrdenkainen
But if we are looking to follow that (are dead or gone ruleset)
-Karsus
-Sammaster
-Vecna
-Arklem Greeth (kinda spicy but I think it works well for the Huffle Puff slot)
If we want to focus on Netheril in general as the two you mention are both from there we can add
-Larloch (I really like this for slytherin because of the history of Szass and Larloch
-Hilather
-Ioulaum
-Augathra the Mad (Particularly fond of Augathra's concept)
these are what jump out at me right now but a deep lore dive might unearth some more juicy candidates.
Btw these are in no particular order, noticed I grouped them in fours oddly enough. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 02 Aug 2018 : 06:24:09
In our Thayan Schools we go to 5th level. My Flying City based on Barnacus disguised as a Storm the only one in Thay, generally it attracts attention in Thay, outside not so much, everyone flying just avoids it or takes cover as we pass over. People think the old flying inverted mountain cities are the only option for flying cities, they are wrong.
In Thay and in Barnacus Flying or landed as an Island or just parked somewhere as a City that just appears you will find many schools that are what you are looking for. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 02 Aug 2018 : 03:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A dark "Hogwarts" type school
Hmmm, let's see.
quote:
Harry Potter and the Half-Crazed Bureaucracy by Benjamin H. Barton:
What would you think of a government that engaged in this list of tyrannical activities:
tortured children for lying;(2) designed its prison specifically to suck all life and hope out of the inmates;(3)
placed citizens in that prison without a hearing;(4) ordered the death penalty without a trial;(5)
allowed the powerful, rich or famous to control policy;(6) selectively prosecuted crimes (the powerful
go unpunished and the unpopular face trumped-up charges);(7) conducted criminal trials without defense counsel;(8)
used truth serum to force confessions;(9) maintained constant surveillance over all citizens;(10)
offered no elections and no democratic lawmaking process;(11) and controlled the press?(12)
Okay, it's certainly "dark" enough for Thay.
But "popularity"/"rich or famous", "trumped-up charges" and "constant surveillance over all citizens" parts are just too pathetic for Red Wizards.  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 20:27:16
A school that teaches the Dart Arts could be interesting. The one thing that comes to mind is how many would be killed during the teaching process.
It is an interesting idea, just strikes me as unworkable. A parent would not want to pay tuition when their child might get killed.
Your appear to be looking at the idea of Drow magic training. Those that survive, survive because of betrayal or death of others. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 20:02:31
That's an interesting idea. I like the listing out of beasts still to help with "heraldry". Yeah, the more I thought on the concept where the "school" was founded by # spellcasters each giving their name to a "house"... the more I realized that the idea of wizardly nobility in Thay, this could really turn bad. I don't want it divided along specialization lines though, because I liked how previously you had the school divisions, but you also had the researcher and imperialist factions. Doing it along the lines out outlander magi though is possibly feasible, but it then needs to be possibly magi from before the formation of Thay (not hard, its only 500 years old) . Also, maybe if the beasts associated with the house matches their ethos. I kind of wasn't liking the idea of naming them after the beasts.
So, what archmages of the bygone eras spring to mind that aren't associated to a modern country (for instance, the shoon brings Calimshan immediately to mind, so they wouldn't want to glorify an existing country)?
Karsus, Hilather (because maybe they don't realize he's Halaster), Ioulaum … maybe make up some others.
So |
| Archmage of Nowhere |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 15:34:52
Are you open to thoughts on the implementation of the school in general?
For naming convention, I think its a nice bit of world building to have them maintain their own histories, who established the house (Implying that one could be established and not just joined), who were its various leaders, what are its accomplishments.
That kind of stuff I think is always nice if characters reference it offhandedly as if everyone should know of it.
I agree that direct Thayan names would be divisive. Perhaps universally known spellcasters of antiquity who in some fashion represent the house, rules for your selection something along the lines of
- the caster has to be perceived as dead or gone
- they have to have a substantial legacy effecting the Art of Magic forever.
Gryffindor = Karsus as a example. A mage who is defined raw power with no cunning or subtly.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 14:05:49
Oh, and also... taking ideas for names of the school's house teams. I'm preferring them being named after ACTUAL historical figures who may have been around in Thay/Unther/Chessenta/the Shaar right around the ToT. However, some of them may have been in Thayan enclaves elsewhere in the world and when they transferred to Abeir they fled to this new Tharch of Peleveran for protection
Along these lines, "Gryffindor" will be heavily influenced by Lauzoril Tavai, his daughter Nyasia Tavai, but maybe they'll take their name from their founder Dmitra Flass (so its house Flass)
Or maybe instead of naming them after family names (which might be divisive) they take on "mascot" creature types? Team Behir for instance. Listening for people's thoughts on both.
Options just throwing up for "beast" names... note trying to stick to those who wouldn't show intelligence roughly equivalent to a humanoid
Behir
Nightmare
Griffin
Ebony Pegacorn
Tuuru (a type of dire Pteranodon from Old Empires)
Bulette
Fire Snake
Displacer Beast
Sabertooth/Smilodon
Death Dog
Hellhound
axebeak
bloodhawk
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