| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 17:39:23
Hellow scribes of old....
So I just had kind of a random discussion with a friend about some gaming. We discussed whether or not it would be possible/ within the code of conduct for a LG Lathander Paladin (Who is the King of a nation) to employ secret agents to spy on other nations and organizations of interest (mostly evil thief guilds).
According to Lathanders dogma, I argued that one could, when used for the betterment of good people in general, whereas he referred to the description of a paladin in PHB.
What do you guys think? Would it be a breach of the paladin code to send out undercover spies to infiltrate and conduct espionage on foreign nation's administrations, and/ or organizations of interest??? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 15:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
(...) I know in raw game mechanics a paladin can detect evil, but one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter? (...)
About this specifically, I think there are two things to consider: one, is that the detect evil power is given by deities, which supposedly know better than mortals. Besides, at least in 2e the power is described as detecting "evil intent". I'm not sure if wishing to harm someone to set his or hers own people free would be detected as "evil intent". Just like trying to kill for food (like many unintelligent animals, plants and monsters do) is not. |
| Corruption |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 12:13:00
Different oaths have different requirements, but Paladins must seek Justice
Oath of Devotions: Torture? The oath forbids it. The Paladin can't lie either, but they can allow people to believe one.
Oath of the Ancients: Not so sure, but I doubt it.
Oath of Vengence: The quote the PHB "By Any Means Necessary." Enough said!
In Xanathar's Guide to Everything, there are two more Oaths listed
Oath of Redemption: No way for this one.
Oath of Conquest: Hell YEAH! In some cases quite litterally as in the case of the Hell Knights! |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 09:07:03
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
After all raiding tomes for treasure tends to be an Evil act in Real World, however a source of income for characters in D&D.
The spread of this view is mostly limited to the literate fans. Unfortunately.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Could he allow the setting up of a "Guantanamo" camp, where punishment and possible torture was conducted, in order to get information?
There were a few "You Are Number 178246" style reeducation camps on Arcadia, however.
This ended with not just the Harmonium guys who ran it, but the whole layer of Nemausus (and there were only 3 on the plane) falling from L(g) Arcadia to LN Mechanus (for the Clueless, Nirvana  ).
So this does lead to fall from anything-Good.
FR angle here is that Azuth's realm used to be on Nemausus. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 23:16:35
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A Paladin can not use means to justify the ends.
But isn't he/she doing that on a daily basis, when a paladin decides who to kill and who not to. I know in raw game mechanics a paladin can detect evil, but one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter? I guess what I'm trying to say ask is whether or not it can be justifies for the paladin to kill 10 innocent people to save 100?
In terms of the question at hand would an undercover agent be able to do evil acts against other evil?
In 5e, there's allowances for that concept, though it would be pushing it. In 3.5... no. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 23:07:50
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A Paladin can not use means to justify the ends.
But isn't he/she doing that on a daily basis, when a paladin decides who to kill and who not to. I know in raw game mechanics a paladin can detect evil, but one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter? I guess what I'm trying to say ask is whether or not it can be justifies for the paladin to kill 10 innocent people to save 100?
In terms of the question at hand would an undercover agent be able to do evil acts against other evil? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 17:23:50
A Paladin can not use means to justify the ends. Can not order Evil acts for the greater good. A "Guantanamo" camp is not something that a Paladin could order, it violated basic concept of Justice even without harsh treatment. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 14:00:52
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Thank you all for your answer!
I should have mentioned that we play D&D 3.5.
I gather that most of you agrees that a LG Paladin of Lathander could indeed employ or setup a soy network, in order to gain invaluable intelligence on enemies of the state and/or church.
As pointed out, the Paladin wont be doing the spying, but will be tasking an officer/government official to oversee operations, and thus report back to the king with critical information. Either on specific targets or general security threats.
That might be a noble house scheming to overthrow the paladin, gained though the placement of an agent undercover as a maid in the noble families mansion. Or it might be a chapter house of an evil church setting up shop in the capital, gained be an agent undercover as an acolyte of the evil religion of which the chapter house belongs to.
Another interesting question would be if, and if so, how evil acts the Paladin could allow, in the pursuit of critical intelligence?
Could he allow the setting up of a "Guantanamo" camp, where punishment and possible torture was conducted, in order to get information?
Could he allow an undercover agent, to become a gang member, to infiltrate a gang - This would probably at some point demand criminal acts to stay in character?
The question is, can a LG Paladin King of Lathander allow evil act to be carried out, if the act is proportional to threat - and vice versa?
In 3.5, a torture camp... I'm saying no
In 3.5, having an "agent" infiltrate a gang... yes... commit criminal acts to stay in the gang... no. So any spy work to be performed by the criminal network would have to have "staged" crimes worked out to establish credibility for the spy. This would be exceptionally hard, so things would have to be worked very well and worth the effort. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 02:19:47
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Another interesting question would be if, and if so, how evil acts the Paladin could allow, in the pursuit of critical intelligence?
Could he allow the setting up of a "Guantanamo" camp, where punishment and possible torture was conducted, in order to get information?
Could he allow an undercover agent, to become a gang member, to infiltrate a gang - This would probably at some point demand criminal acts to stay in character?
The question is, can a LG Paladin King of Lathander allow evil act to be carried out, if the act is proportional to threat - and vice versa?
-On this, I would say no. Paladins are supposed to be paragons of virtue, justice, etc. While a regular benevolent ruler might, Paladins eventually get into that whole "you're not being good enough" area that makes their gods unhappy and causes them to violate their vows/lose their divine favor and powers. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 01:34:13
Thank you all for your answer!
I should have mentioned that we play D&D 3.5.
I gather that most of you agrees that a LG Paladin of Lathander could indeed employ or setup a soy network, in order to gain invaluable intelligence on enemies of the state and/or church.
As pointed out, the Paladin wont be doing the spying, but will be tasking an officer/government official to oversee operations, and thus report back to the king with critical information. Either on specific targets or general security threats.
That might be a noble house scheming to overthrow the paladin, gained though the placement of an agent undercover as a maid in the noble families mansion. Or it might be a chapter house of an evil church setting up shop in the capital, gained be an agent undercover as an acolyte of the evil religion of which the chapter house belongs to.
Another interesting question would be if, and if so, how evil acts the Paladin could allow, in the pursuit of critical intelligence?
Could he allow the setting up of a "Guantanamo" camp, where punishment and possible torture was conducted, in order to get information?
Could he allow an undercover agent, to become a gang member, to infiltrate a gang - This would probably at some point demand criminal acts to stay in character?
The question is, can a LG Paladin King of Lathander allow evil act to be carried out, if the act is proportional to threat - and vice versa?
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 20:38:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Reading this thread I remembered King Azoun IV dressed as a peasant to spy his own people about their willingness to join the Crusade against the Tuigan. So, I think spying, depending on conditions, is not avoided, depending on circumstances. Of course, I think he must exhaust all other options first (paladins usually are tied to a church, and a paladin king certainly must have access to powerful divinations). 
Azoun wasn't a paladin. He was a cavalier in 1E and a fighter in 2E.
That's right! Although I think his morals as a LG cavalier would make him similar to a paladin in some aspects, at least. Now I remember the whole scene, he was DISCOVERED by a paladin. Which made no fuss about it, but was curious about the spying, and checked him with his "detect evil" ability. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 19:45:11
paladins will definitely support spies. As TBeholder pointed out, look at Gareth Dragonsbane and the organization called Spysong. Paladins will employ legal spies in the form of servants, courtiers, merchants, etc... paid to listen in on conversations and report back anything dangerous/nefarious. Also, when there are lawbreakers in their midst, it is not usually illegal to have individuals misrepresent who they are to non-government individuals intent to perform injustices, and thus infiltrate said organizations for the greater good. Will the paladin be doing that himself? Of course not. Bladewind makes a great point when he says that paladins may in fact turn to their own dungeons to find those willing to aid them in rooting out the enemy. What better way to make an individual a valuable asset than to let them atone for their sins by stopping organizations intent on hurting others? The state wins by gaining information and also spending less money caring for said individual, and possibly gaining a new ally. The individual wins by spending less time in jail. Of course, said individual may flee, which if caught will likely end in his/her execution or an extended sentence with a work detail requirement that they won't like. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 14:40:06
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Reading this thread I remembered King Azoun IV dressed as a peasant to spy his own people about their willingness to join the Crusade against the Tuigan. So, I think spying, depending on conditions, is not avoided, depending on circumstances. Of course, I think he must exhaust all other options first (paladins usually are tied to a church, and a paladin king certainly must have access to powerful divinations).
Azoun wasn't a paladin. He was a cavalier in 1E and a fighter in 2E. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 11:41:06
Reading this thread I remembered King Azoun IV dressed as a peasant to spy his own people about their willingness to join the Crusade against the Tuigan. So, I think spying, depending on conditions, is not avoided, depending on circumstances. Of course, I think he must exhaust all other options first (paladins usually are tied to a church, and a paladin king certainly must have access to powerful divinations). |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 09:40:59
I already gave my thoughts on this in an earlier scroll; basically the paladins courts intelligence will be at great risk trying to play the espionage game within the bounds of a chivalric code of honor.
His most likely recourse is to search for the most impeccable spymasters of the land and trust they are as good as they say they are. Clerical orders would probably be far more knowledgeable of which foreign administrative agencies are the most likely to hold the vital information at the least risk of failure or capture when obtaining it, so a paladin order will usually defer espionage to its clerical hierarchy. Thieves Guilds might have agents that know their way around the rival palace or mansion, and some of them might be willing to vow some oaths for the order when promised with enough coin or freedom after enough time in prison. Magic academies usually readily accept a royal cause if the paladin-king provides them with arcane resources; in turn they can supply courtly agents with divinations, enchantments and transmutations that greatly enhance intelligence gathering abilities.
All these agencies have varying levels of loyalty and are given a dangerous job proposition. Can a failed agent expect a rescue mission from the order? How long does he have to stay embedded? How fast did the paladin order react when the last agent was in trouble? All questions the agent will weigh when asked to accept a new order or when pressured into a hairy situation.
Truly fanatical superspies, that fear very few obtacles and are willing to resort to suicide to resist capture, are more common in tyrannical states. They also usually take years to train during which they are more likely to have had evil godly sponsors and mentors. The best of these are agents of monstrous factions such as the Unseen or Kraken Society who dominate the game of espionage on such a high level that its nearly impossible to rival their body of political and social knowledge. So a kingdom willing to deal or capable of dealing with Unseen dopplegangers or Malenti mindspies can buy into a wealth of explosive knowledge that might cause massive rioting or social upheaval, and could easily unveal a spy plot planned by a rival paladin-king. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 08:10:18
Yes, a Paladin-King could employ spies to help secure the protection of the realm. There's nothing against the code of conduct that prohibits it. Now if these spies are Evil in any way, then that would be a violation since he'd be consorting with evil creatures and that's a no-no (at least if we're discussing 3.PF). If we're talking about 4th Edition (then I'd say that association with evil is generally frowned upon by a LG Paladin, however it's not specifically against the rules. A bit more "meh" in 5th Edition terms - but more than likely I'd avoid using Evil spies altogether. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 05:00:13
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So I just had kind of a random discussion with a friend about some gaming. We discussed whether or not it would be possible/ within the code of conduct for a LG Lathander Paladin (Who is the King of a nation) to employ secret agents to spy on other nations and organizations of interest (mostly evil thief guilds).
You ever heard of Gareth Dragonsbane? 
Short answer: yes, why not. Besides, that's a part of the whole "rule a place" thing.
Long answer: sure, presumably he will ask agents to "watch if the courtiers over there may be unduly influenced by Banites or (gosh golly) vampires", not "blackmail those guys to gimme stuff". It's just that paladins normally are not in a position to do it. And the few who are can simply delegate the whole affair to someone more into sneaky activity.
After all, «The idea of having an empire is that occasionally, other people do things for you!» - it's not a very complicated concept.
As to the specific guidelines, the specific oath depend on the paladin's order (if any), but The Paladin's Virtues advise that "Give others your mercy, but keep your wits about you." among the other things.
I'd expect a spy network "owned" by a paladin to mess around actively as little as possible, and mostly just watch and provide information, simply because one won't trust all the sneaks to do "the right thing", thus would prioritize doing least harm where someone more upright can't oversee the mess directly. Which could also mean they are caught on something less often.
But specifically Lathander's followers are quite optimistic, so who knows.
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| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 03:22:13
IMO paladins are more likely to be used as enforcers to question and interrogate while the clerics organize covert operations.
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 02:47:08
-Mostly evil thief guilds? Definitely not.
-Other agents? I would say yeah, based on who they are and what they are doing. A mercenary that betrays his old employer because the Lathanderite is paying him more? No. A member of court who just overhears things? I'd say so, sure. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 01:04:57
A quick answer is not always the best one.
On the other hand I am not sure I can provide a better answer.
In part it depends on which edition you are using. Paladin descriptions, rules and limitations have changed some.
I do not see any limitation of a Paladin paying for information, so spies in that itself appears not to be banned. However most Paladin's might feel or be restricted by code from paying for information gained by Evil acts.
So in part it might depend on the quality of spy by how good the actions are.
To be in another nation to see what is going on there does not strike as a problem. Unless the spy swears loyalty to the nation in order to gain greater knowledge and secrets.
To spy on thieves? It is good to know what they are up to, to find and catch. Paying informants clearly occurs in the Real World. I am not sure if the Paladin code comes close to addressing this. At best the answer might be a Paladin can not pay for information obtained by Evil acts.
Some Paladin orders clearly might make paying for information that can not be a result of Evil or Unlawful acts.
Paladins used to all be lawful good, not sure how Neutral they are allowed to be now.
I however see no reason that even a Lawful Good Paladin could not hire a Neutral to get information on Evil, Neutral or even other Good groups. Just as long as the hired person does no Evil.
Evil and Good as described by the rules of the game. After all raiding tomes for treasure tends to be an Evil act in Real World, however a source of income for characters in D&D. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 22:40:29
no it does not |
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