| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gyor |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 13:26:40
Some big things happened with Mord Tome of Foes with the lore, especially elves.
First off Evermeet because it was partially unmoored from Faerun has been getting immigrants from none Toril worlds, so the ship coming to your port in Waterdeep for example might be bearing Elves from other worlds,such as Greyhawk, Sigil, and Stranger settings.
They could even bring their Gods with them. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:19:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Malyk had basically become an aspect of Talos, but his worship did indeed continue. GIven how Amaunator and Lathander have separated after the Sundering, or how the elven "aspects" (which *never* made any sense whatsoever) have returned to being their former selves, it's likely that Malyk too separated (similarly to how the Talos=Gruumsh 4e nonsense has also ended).
As for racial gods as Mystra's helpers, Eilistraee does indeed fit. It is explicitly stated that she is one of the deities with whom Mystra's sharing the Weave as of now.
Yeah, my view of these servant gods of magic is one of helping wedge up Mystra while she's weak... giving her "assistance" in ways that pertain to their own portfolios. In return, I'd imagine these gods are going to expect a little more control in those areas as well, or possibly offerings of shrines in her churches, etc... Maybe these gods will serve in a means similar to what the chosen did, as in they may get access to certain divine power as an overflow, but maybe its somehow locked away for desperate times. In fact, having some "evil" gods in this mix (like Velsharoon / Leira / Malyk) may be a bit of a cornerstone to releasing this power (as in the gods may have to work together to release the power necessary to keep Mystra stable).... so the evil nor the good gods can just siphon the power without the consent of others.
Yeah, I had already read about this take of yours on Mystra/the Weave. It's pretty interesting, tbh. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:18:38
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do find it interesting that they're pushing Malyk as if he's existed for a while, considering he's a relative newcomer who was then consumed by Talos. My understanding was that he was elevated after the ToT, and by 1372 or thereabouts he was already consumed.
I'm not upset about this, because I consider him another feather in Mystra's hat that I can use, since I've been building up this pool of gods that I feel helped in some way bring Mystra back and now are "secondary" servants to her (unless they're primary servants like Azuth and Savras). So, at present, with returned gods as possibilities, I'm looking at Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Malyk, Deneir, Kereska the Wonderbringer, the Red Knight (as a goddess of spell strategy), Finder.... and I could possibly include other racial gods like Eilistraee, Corellon, and possibly gods from other pantheons such as Isis and Thoth.
I am going to remain optimistic and propose that the elements of Vhaeraun's presentation that are such a clear 180-degree departure from everything we know, are a deliberate & very temporary change in strategy by Vhaeraun... which will finally bring about Lolth's destruction & Vhaeraun's ascension to become the Shadow King of the Dark Seldarine.
Ed's Lore is Law. So, I'm thinking that the push of Malyk is related to Vhaeraun now suddenly cultivating an image of a silent/obedient cultural protector... If Vhaeraun is going to truly succeed in overthrowing Lolth & seizing control of the Drow, he should be in a position to be perceived as a protector, rightful heir, and unifying force, instead of a usurpur or perpetrator of a coup... leave that role to Malyk.
It stands to reason that Vhaeraun would be not only be silently allied with Eilistraee, but with Malyk as well... Vhaeraun is identified with Shadow Magic, just as Malyk is identified with Wild Magic... And since both are deities that are historically identified with Rebellion, a secret alliance between the two sounds like a real possibility.
I could actually be pretty on-board with this. Once again, the problem is that the book doesn't support this at all. I mean, if just it said that the followers of Vhaeraun are feigning complacency... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:16:50
I am not upset about them bringing in other gods or restoring old ones. That is fine with me (I prefer it). What I *am* upset about is their complete 180 of lore for well-established gods, like Vhaeraun. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:01:49
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Malyk had basically become an aspect of Talos, but his worship did indeed continue. GIven how Amaunator and Lathander have separated after the Sundering, or how the elven "aspects" (which *never* made any sense whatsoever) have returned to being their former selves, it's likely that Malyk too separated (similarly to how the Talos=Gruumsh 4e nonsense has also ended).
As for racial gods as Mystra's helpers, Eilistraee does indeed fit. It is explicitly stated that she is one of the deities with whom Mystra's sharing the Weave as of now.
Yeah, my view of these servant gods of magic is one of helping wedge up Mystra while she's weak... giving her "assistance" in ways that pertain to their own portfolios. In return, I'd imagine these gods are going to expect a little more control in those areas as well, or possibly offerings of shrines in her churches, etc... Maybe these gods will serve in a means similar to what the chosen did, as in they may get access to certain divine power as an overflow, but maybe its somehow locked away for desperate times. In fact, having some "evil" gods in this mix (like Velsharoon / Leira / Malyk) may be a bit of a cornerstone to releasing this power (as in the gods may have to work together to release the power necessary to keep Mystra stable).... so the evil nor the good gods can just siphon the power without the consent of others. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 19:42:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do find it interesting that they're pushing Malyk as if he's existed for a while, considering he's a relative newcomer who was then consumed by Talos. My understanding was that he was elevated after the ToT, and by 1372 or thereabouts he was already consumed.
I'm not upset about this, because I consider him another feather in Mystra's hat that I can use, since I've been building up this pool of gods that I feel helped in some way bring Mystra back and now are "secondary" servants to her (unless they're primary servants like Azuth and Savras). So, at present, with returned gods as possibilities, I'm looking at Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Malyk, Deneir, Kereska the Wonderbringer, the Red Knight (as a goddess of spell strategy), Finder.... and I could possibly include other racial gods like Eilistraee, Corellon, and possibly gods from other pantheons such as Isis and Thoth.
I am going to remain optimistic and propose that the elements of Vhaeraun's presentation that are such a clear 180-degree departure from everything we know, are a deliberate & very temporary change in strategy by Vhaeraun... which will finally bring about Lolth's destruction & Vhaeraun's ascension to become the Shadow King of the Dark Seldarine.
Ed's Lore is Law. So, I'm thinking that the push of Malyk is related to Vhaeraun now suddenly cultivating an image of a silent/obedient cultural protector... If Vhaeraun is going to truly succeed in overthrowing Lolth & seizing control of the Drow, he should be in a position to be perceived as a protector, rightful heir, and unifying force, instead of a usurpur or perpetrator of a coup... leave that role to Malyk.
It stands to reason that Vhaeraun would be not only be silently allied with Eilistraee, but with Malyk as well... Vhaeraun is identified with Shadow Magic, just as Malyk is identified with Wild Magic... And since both are deities that are historically identified with Rebellion, a secret alliance between the two sounds like a real possibility. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 19:15:06
Malyk had basically become an aspect of Talos, but his worship did indeed continue. GIven how Amaunator and Lathander have separated after the Sundering, or how the elven "aspects" (which *never* made any sense whatsoever) have returned to being their former selves, it's likely that Malyk too separated (similarly to how the Talos=Gruumsh 4e nonsense has also ended).
As for racial gods as Mystra's helpers, Eilistraee does indeed fit. It is explicitly stated that she is one of the deities with whom Mystra's sharing the Weave as of now. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 19:03:19
I do find it interesting that they're pushing Malyk as if he's existed for a while, considering he's a relative newcomer who was then consumed by Talos. My understanding was that he was elevated after the ToT, and by 1372 or thereabouts he was already consumed.
I'm not upset about this, because I consider him another feather in Mystra's hat that I can use, since I've been building up this pool of gods that I feel helped in some way bring Mystra back and now are "secondary" servants to her (unless they're primary servants like Azuth and Savras). So, at present, with returned gods as possibilities, I'm looking at Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Malyk, Deneir, Kereska the Wonderbringer, the Red Knight (as a goddess of spell strategy), Finder.... and I could possibly include other racial gods like Eilistraee, Corellon, and possibly gods from other pantheons such as Isis and Thoth. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 15:50:52
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
^Yup, he never had rebellion, so even potentially losing power with his rebirth would not change his mindset.
Sorry, Irennan & CorellonsDevout... I wasn't trying to say that "Drow Rebellion" was an official portfolio element of Vhaeraun that got passed to Malyk, I was trying to say that it seems like they're pushing Malyk (and his faithful) as the "Voice" of Drow Rebels... and I didn't realize Ed clarified that Eilistraee hadn't killed Vhaeraun, so I'll go back to the drawing board on it.
But, because Cyric is an eternal optimist, I am still determined to make Lemonade out of the Mordenkainen's Lore!
Nothing to be sorry about. My apologies if it sounded like I was angry, or offended, or something. I mean, I was, but not because of your attempts at getting something good from the book, simply because of what WotC did to Vhaeraun.
Constructive input and discussion are always appreciated, even though when an official source warps a character to this degree, I'll very likely ignore the new source anyway. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 15:50:00
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, I was intrigued with the story of Laduguer getting his divinity from Asmodeus taking a divine spark from Abbathor. While that's not realms canon, I don't think we actually have a history for Laduguer's rise, and it could well be true that he rose as a god there or somewhere else, and the mind flayers of that community came to Toril or shared their information with the elder brain on Toril and they performed similar experiments. However, what I find intriguing about it is why would Asmodeus have access to a spark of divinity from Abbathor?
Because it sounds cool.
Well, it probably does to the designers. I think 'because Asmodeus/Shar/Lolth/Sir Wigglebottom the Third did it' is a poor excuse for storytelling. Maybe it's what the dwarves tell themselves, rather than admit that Laduguer rose to prominence on his own merits. Abbathor, after all, is their god, while Laddy is the the god of their surly cousins who can't possibly be as powerful as ol' Clangeddin, so he had to have gained that power through treacherous non-dwarven means.
Laduguer is justifiably rather surly about the whole ordeal, and baatezu are rather careful not to linger too long in Hammergrim, or in Thuldanin in general. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 15:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
^Yup, he never had rebellion, so even potentially losing power with his rebirth would not change his mindset.
Sorry, Irennan & CorellonsDevout... I wasn't trying to say that "Drow Rebellion" was an official portfolio element of Vhaeraun that got passed to Malyk, I was trying to say that it seems like they're pushing Malyk (and his faithful) as the "Voice" of Drow Rebels... and I didn't realize Ed clarified that Eilistraee hadn't killed Vhaeraun, so I'll go back to the drawing board on it.
But, because Cyric is an eternal optimist, I am still determined to make Lemonade out of the Mordenkainen's Lore! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 21:23:50
Given that this is the "Tome of Foes", I get the gith and blood wars chapters. I even get the elf and dwarf chapters (for dark elves, duergar, and this spin on Shadar-Kai). BTW, I think I'll also have the "Elle Folk" or those "shadow elves" aka the Arak of Ravenloft, having some ties to the Raven Queeen as well. Anyway, why the chapter on halflings and gnomes? I'm not upset, but if they were looking to do a book on the gods, I would have rathered more of a religion book in the tone of "Demihuman Deities" combined with "Monster Mythology".
BTW, I was intrigued with the story of Laduguer getting his divinity from Asmodeus taking a divine spark from Abbathor. While that's not realms canon, I don't think we actually have a history for Laduguer's rise, and it could well be true that he rose as a god there or somewhere else, and the mind flayers of that community came to Toril or shared their information with the elder brain on Toril and they performed similar experiments. However, what I find intriguing about it is why would Asmodeus have access to a spark of divinity from Abbathor?
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 20:35:33
^Yup, he never had rebellion, so even potentially losing power with his rebirth would not change his mindset. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 20:26:13
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Except that Ed explained that Eilistraee actually spared her brother when he attempted to assassinate her, and only borrowed his portfolio for a while (on a side note, Malyk couldn't have picked up on rebellion anyway, because Eilistraee did at that time. And Malyk wasn't even there to do that at that time. Currently, he seems to have separated by Talos, but the rearrangement in portfolios was supposedly handled by Ao--see Myrkul and Kelemvor as an example).
Second, a price should be paid in portfolios, but portfolios are not always related to the goal. In fact, checking things out, the point above doesn't stand anyway, because Vhaeraun never held the portfolio of rebellion, so his change remains random (btw, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are two examples that I mention when people say that gods can only act in regard to their portfolios). Even more, because Vhaeraun was the *only* one to receive such a change. I mean, combining SCAG and MToF Eilistraee even gained a massive portfolio (freedom), while the others remained more or less themselves?
Oh, I agree. I like Ed's version much better, I am just saying, if they were going to change things, it would have made more sense to do it that way, rather than rewriting the whole thing. And the rebellion refers to his rebellion against Lolth, not having it in his portfolio. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 19:02:11
Do you want my (jaded) take on the reason for that change? In the latest novel, Drizzt was stated to be the beacon of hope for all drow males (even though he *never* even gave a flying about the drow and wholly spurned his people). Guess who would get in the way? Yeah, Vhaeraun.
Next thing you know, WotC will have Eilistraee working for Lolth by taking to her all the drow who choose a different path only to send their souls to her mother (because that's more or less the extent of how they changed Vhaeraun). Her good heart was a ruse all along!!!1!!! |
| Irennan |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 18:59:59
Except that Ed explained that Eilistraee actually spared her brother when he attempted to assassinate her, and only borrowed his portfolio for a while (on a side note, Malyk couldn't have picked up on rebellion anyway, because Eilistraee did at that time. And Malyk wasn't even there to do that at that time. Currently, he seems to have separated by Talos, but the rearrangement in portfolios was supposedly handled by Ao--see Myrkul and Kelemvor as an example).
Second, a price should be paid in portfolios, but portfolios are not always related to the goal. In fact, checking things out, the point above doesn't stand anyway, because Vhaeraun never held the portfolio of rebellion, so his change remains random (btw, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are two examples that I mention when people say that gods can only act in regard to their portfolios). Even more, because Vhaeraun was the *only* one to receive such a change. I mean, combining SCAG and MToF Eilistraee even gained a massive portfolio (freedom), while the others remained more or less themselves? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 18:56:12
Except that Vhaeraun's "death" wasn't even included. It might make more sense if, yes, he came back from "death", and the price was the end of his rebellion (I don't really like it, but it would make more sense). However, they rewrote his lore from the beginning, not from his supposed death. The MToF basically presents it like it has always been this way. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 18:47:31
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I wasn't defending the change; the whole second part of my post was about that. :)
Jeff
Well, I'm going to keep defending the change, because I like change... and so does Cyric.
Anyway, I had to think long & hard about all the consternation that Vhaeraun's change has fomented in this scroll... and I am certainly sympathetic about it, because I definitely see Irennan's point...
However, after further reflecting upon this I realized that I actually like the idea that although Vhaeraun came back from "death" it was not without a price to be paid... In this case, clearly the price was an end to his rebellion against Lolth.
...And it seems like Malyk has fully picked up the mantle of "Drow Rebellion", which is entirely consistent with the Lore regarding Malyk's apotheosis. He picked up part of Mystra (Wild Magic) when she was killed by Helm during the Time of Troubles... This time around it looks like he picked up part of Vhaeraun (Drow Rebellion) when he was killed by Eilistraee during the Spellplague...
This seems to me like an easily justified change that actually is being mindful of Realms Lore & Canon... Anybody that is upset by it should blame Eilistraee for her callous act of fratricide, and embrace Malyk's Rebellion against Lolth's Unholy Matriarchy! |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 22:37:32
well... I plan on buying this book. I am just am in no hurry to do so |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 16:23:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun is one of the extremely few well written villains in D&D, one of that doesn't have idiotic motivations like "muahahaha, I will conquer/destroy the world"
Then they went, trashed lore that has been there for like 26 years (as effin' old as I am!), and made him a pale reflection of himself. Great job, really...
OMG I'm old
That's what I said to myself, lol |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 16:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun is one of the extremely few well written villains in D&D, one of that doesn't have idiotic motivations like "muahahaha, I will conquer/destroy the world"
Then they went, trashed lore that has been there for like 26 years (as effin' old as I am!), and made him a pale reflection of himself. Great job, really...
OMG I'm old |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 16:09:28
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The problem with the unreliable narrator approach in source books is that, much like Irennan said, it seems to be the trend WotC is going with, to avoid actually dealing with canon. And, whoever the narrator may be, it's still presented as "this is the way things are". I don't really understand this approach, as DMs have always been able to do what they want, anyway. Yes, I am one of *those* people. I care about the lore, and I don't like the canon out the window approach.
On THAT, I will say for once that they've been listening to the people here and elsewhere. I know most people have stated that if they're going to be going off with weird ideas that may contradict canon, to put it in the tone of unreliable narrator. Haven't even started reading my copy, but I am glad to hear its written as such.
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 14:54:37
Sorry, I must have misunderstood. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 06:22:33
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I know the priests removed an eye to emulate him having one eye. It's not the act of the removal. And either way, the point is that the orc priests maim themselves to emulate their god. Whether Gruumsh lost in eye in battle or has always had one eye--his being one-eyed has been in the lore for a while. Vhaeraun being mute, however, and followers silencing themselves in tribute, is new. And, again, by making it only believed by some, WotC is dodging the responsibility of establishing anything concrete.
I wasn't defending the change; the whole second part of my post was about that. :)
Jeff |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 06:07:30
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"different aspect of masculinity: strong, silent, obedient, swift, and deadly".
Again, hearing that is the hearing the sounds of nails on a blackboard.
Mmhhm. Vhaeraun has never been known for his obedience, *especially* to Lolth. Silent? Sure, in the way an assassin is silent, but not in the "I have no tongue" silence that he supposedly has now. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 06:05:01
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I totally agree with this, and have advocated this for most deities even before MToF. And especially concerning something like the new lore for Vhaeraun, something like whether or not he was silenced should be clear. I mean, everyone knows Gruumsh lost an eye, and that is why some of his priests maim themselves by doing the same.
That wasn't how Gruumsh was described in Monster Mythology. Elves said Corellon took out one of his eyes in their battle, while orcs say Gruumsh was always one-eyed, and even see him as cyclopean (his avatars appeared that way).
Some of his priests took out an eye to emulate him being one-eyed, but not because they were emulating him losing an eye.
I know the priests removed an eye to emulate him having one eye. It's not the act of the removal. And either way, the point is that the orc priests maim themselves to emulate their god. Whether Gruumsh lost in eye in battle or has always had one eye--his being one-eyed has been in the lore for a while. Vhaeraun being mute, however, and followers silencing themselves in tribute, is new. And, again, by making it only believed by some, WotC is dodging the responsibility of establishing anything concrete.
I agree it isn't dogma, and dogma is important, but in regards to Vhaeraun, it is still a drastic lore change. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:59:49
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"different aspect of masculinity: strong, silent, obedient, swift, and deadly".
Again, hearing that is the hearing the sounds of nails on a blackboard. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:55:53
Keptolo is portrayed as Lolth's consort (or plaything), and Vhaeraun is seen as her favored son (yup, apparently she favors him now). Keptolo represents hedonism, style, as well as "subtle assassin and whisperer of rumors", worshiped by males who wish to emulate him. Vhaeraun represents a "different aspect of masculinity: strong, silent, obedient, swift, and deadly". |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I totally agree with this, and have advocated this for most deities even before MToF. And especially concerning something like the new lore for Vhaeraun, something like whether or not he was silenced should be clear. I mean, everyone knows Gruumsh lost an eye, and that is why some of his priests maim themselves by doing the same.
That wasn't how Gruumsh was described in Monster Mythology. Elves said Corellon took out one of his eyes in their battle, while orcs say Gruumsh was always one-eyed, and even see him as cyclopean (his avatars appeared that way).
Some of his priests took out an eye to emulate him being one-eyed, but not because they were emulating him losing an eye.
However, that's essentially two different religions with different myths and concepts, and their deities could be lying to them about it. But it's not really dogma, either, just iconography, which is far less important than dogma. Most of the dogma is crucial to advancing the material plane goals of the deity; having the dogma diverge dramatically risks the followers operating against the deity's goals, and most deities would send warnings to the followers.
Jeff |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:33:54
Yeah, half this thread has been a discussion about how Vhaeraun's concept was demolished. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:22:48
Wait, Vhaeraun is now an expy of Keptolo, his polar opposite? What? |
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