| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Apr 2018 : 01:05:27
The only source of which I'm aware is in Dragon #228, in Ed Greenwood's 'The Athalantean Campaign', where they are mentioned in passing. Two NPC wizards from Unther are mentioned in the article as well and may have had some connection to the secret society, but it is not made explicit, if so.
What is known about them is that they were a society of Untheri battlemages founded in 229 DR and lasting about 20 years. They destroyed many armies sent against them by local lords, presumably lords ruling in Gilgeam's name.
From this I conclude that they were in some way rebelling against Gilgeam's rule or at least the status quo of Unther and perhaps even the Old Empires as a whole. That might suggest connections to the earlier secret society of wizards following the Theurgist Adept, Thayd, but such connections, if any, remain speculation, as far as I'm aware.
Around 249 DR, they had all been slain or lost on other planes. Some records and hidden magic mus have survived, as their magics formed a great part of the arcane arsenal of the Red Wizards many centuries later.
Is there anything else known about them?
Do the novels about Elminster's youth ever mention explicitly whether some Untheri NPCs are current or former members of this society? Are there any more mentions of Unther or the Old Empires in the 3rd century DR in those novels?
Is the secret society of the Black Flame mentioned in any of the novels set leading up to the Spellplague or after it, in Thay or the Old Empires?
Perhaps in connection with Red Wizards of Thay or the Black Flame Zealots of Kossuth's church, with whom there might be some connection?
I'm considering a historical figure, the author of a journal that the PCs will come across and the purported author of a much more secret set of books, one of which is said to detail his sojourn under the great city of Unthalass and his observations on the dark queen that rules there.
I thought that I would name him Manishtushu and have him live in the late 2nd century and early 3rd century DR. He'd have been one of the founding members of the Black Flame and ultimately dispatched by slayers in the service of Gilgeam's Grand Vizier (Sukkal rabi'u) at the time, Umamaita Magâunô, sometime near 250 DR.
I'm wondering about the magical traditions that he would have studied and the ancient mysteries that he would have unearthed over his career. If he was a quester for forbidden lore and the darkest magic, in the tradition of a Clark Ashton Smith character (e.g. Azédarac, Eibon or Malygris), what ancient evil tomes (or antediluvian petroglyphs) might he have read in his dark studies?
What shadowy hints to unspeakable horrors and profane mysteries might be gleaned from reading his cryptic journal?
Might he have studied Narfelli demonbinding, only three centuries lost during his lifetime?
Or the elemental secrets of the Raumathari battlemages?
The nation of Eltabranar, under the rulership of the Lord of the Hidden Layer himself, existed at this time, between 106 DR and 211 DR, when it was destroyed. An ill-advised invasion of both Mulhorand and Unther in 202 DR precipitated its fall and might well have been a part of the personal history of a number of mages who went on to form the Black Flame.
If Manishtushu had translated some truly ancient tome of eldritch knowledge, that was old beyond the knowing even in his lifetime, where would such a work have originally come from?
One possibility would, of course, be the Narathmault or modern Dun-Tharos, which was already a place of dark power to the dark elves of the Sethomiir clan of Ilythiiri, long before the Nar ever emerged in the area. On the other hand, that single location cannot be the source of absolutely all ancient evil in the Realms.
Imaskar is a bit stereotypical, though I'm sure he's read some Imaskari translations of even older works, translating them into more modern (for him) languages.
What about pre-human evils in the Old Empires area?
Were there dark magicians and scholars of ancient evils in sarrukhian Okoth? If so, where might their places of mystery have been?
What other ancient realms occupied some part of the lands that the Second Untheri Empire ruled? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Apr 2018 : 03:29:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Ed has stated Ythazz was known as Thayd? Hmmmmm....
Not sure that statement is correct.
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 19:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because a Suel Lich has to possess a living person. Ythazz is introduced in Spellbound as being a demilich. Theoretically, that should mean that he's spent a lot of time as a lich. Also, he's known as Thayd in Ed's work, and it says he was known for burning out bodies within days.
I didn't know Ythazz was already a demilich. As I've stated, my knowledge of ancient Thayan (and OE) history is sparse, compared to my knowledge of other parts of the setting. This is primarily due to them (TSR, WotC) not having really done a lot with the place(s) - I have to research the Heartlands heavily to do maps, because so much changed over time. We really don't see a whole lot of that with Thay and the Old Empires; once Imaskari was gone, it was all fairly linear. The sites and cities that are there have been so for thousands of years (mostly).
So Ed has stated Ythazz was known as Thayd? Hmmmmm....
Then I would turn Ythazz/Thayd into a unique form of lich (they are all supposed to be, anyway) - one who's phylactory is his own skull (they did something somewhat similar in the TV Shannara series with the Warlock Lord's skull). Thus, the assumption that Ythazz is a demilich, when really thats the skull of Thayd (with the ability to fly around and shoot beams out of its eyes, a'la the Skulls of Waterdeep and elsewhere... EG was really fond of flying skulls). But at the same time, its really more like a Suel Lich - the skull is just his 'home' while disembodied (almost like a genie in a lamp).
So there may have actually been a Ythazz at some point, who Thayd controlled, and then when he 'burned out', the skull just claimed to be 'Ythazz returned'.
Obviously fitting Ambuchar Devyam into all of this became way more complicated (or not, if we say Tan Chin did his 'soul split' later on, and abandoned the Skull, so that the objects destroyed in that AP were more like Horcruxes. In fact, if we say the skull is still around somewhere, that might be even better - it could be his 'final horcrux' that no-one ever finds). And he IS a Suel lich, so that part fits perfectly.
Whether anyone cares for this scenario or not, I may adapt parts of it for Tan Chin regardless. Being a Suel Lich alleviates him from having to transcend into a Demilich, but having him have his own, flying skull around could be a lot of fun.  |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 11:00:46
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unther had some really powerful mages but for some reason around 100 DR they all started migrating away. We have mention of more than a few in Athalantar.
Unther has always exported mercenary mages, but there is, again, no mention that these are fleeing their home or that they will not return back there with their riches. If anything, the implication is that because there are so many mages in Unther, but, at various times, too few elsewhere, that they can make much more money working abroad.
The Untheri mages in Athalantar are mentioned in context with the Black Flame cabal. It is not specified whether they were rivals of some of the mages in that cabal, allies, friends, apprentices or something else of the mages who formed the Black Flame, but Ed Greenwood mentioned the Black Flame for some reason in an article on Athalantar, where he also mentioned several Untheri mages who appear to have moved there for professional reasons a couple of years before the Black Flame cabal was founded.
If all the mages in Unther had started emigrating after 100 DR, it is extremely implausible that Unther would still be producing sought-after mercenary mages twelve centuries later. Yet that seems to be the case, with Calishite and Untheri mercenary mages still seemingly the most sought-after spellhurlers-for-hire in 1300s Sembia and various other places, as evidenced by their presence in many Realms stories.
In order for powerful mages, capable of using 5th level and higher spells, to come from somewhere in a steady stream over centuries and millennia, they need to be able to study and apprentice there. If there had been a flight of mages from Unther in the second or third century DR, the descendants of these mages would not be 'Untheri' in the 14th century DR. So we may safely conclude that arcane spellcasters were not persecuted in Unther, at least not the extent that it had any effect on the apparently prodigious production of new spellhurlers from there.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
There are numerous revolutionary groups in Unther composed entirely of mages.
Which?
Thayd was a Theurgist Adept, which apparently is some form of arcane magic-user, but his followers might have been from many groups of society. Yes, he had apprentices who were mages and he apparently appealed to many mages, in Unther (somewhat oddly) as well as Mulhorand, but the distinguishing part of his revolt was a rejection of divine power in general and, specifically, the authority of the God-Kings.
The Black Flame cabal has never been claimed to have had any political goals. They might have, of course, but what history we have is silent on the matter, telling us only that local lords whelmed armies against them and that the mages of the Black Flame cabal destroyed those armies with their spells. Why the local lords did this, we do not know, but obviously, it is tempting to speculate that either their goals or their methods were inimical to the ruling class of Unther. In any case, there is no suggestion that they were persecuted for being mages.
The Northern Wizards and the Enclave were simply apolitical groups of mages, much like any wizard's guild or society. The Northern Wizards were drawn into politics against their will, but the Enclave still refuse to take any political stance. Neither of them were revolutionaries or plotted against Gilgeam when he decided to move against them in the mid-14th century DR. Gilgeam's decision to finally start persecuting them, after what appears to be untold centuries of mages being simply an accepted part of life in Unther, seems to have been a sign of his ever-increasing demented paranoia.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I decided that Gilgeam did his usual thing to power groups and persecuted them out of fear and paranoia until they left or rebelled.
That describes Gilgeam in the 1350s, but his fall from grace was gradual, a process of centuries, if not millennia. His paranoia was nowhere near as great in the past as it had become by the end. There was a time when he was a popular leader and Unther was prosperous. Even when he had become ineffectual as a ruler, it seems that his earlier sins were mostly ones of inattention, i.e. he had become heartily sick of the day-to-day business of ruling.
From what I can tell, for most of his reign, the usual response of Gilgeam to most anything was to ignore it, especially if it could not be slain in glorious single combat. He didn't even bother to persecute 'rival' faiths until quite late in his reign, being until then serenely indifferent to the priesthoods of Assuran, Ramman, Ishtar and the few madmen who still devoted their lives to dead gods.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So how did the Church of Girre survive 1000 years after his death. I could give a very well known real world example of this but i'll just leave it as anything is possible.
A lot of gods have death and rebirth in their mythology. The gods who died in the Orcgate Wars were acknowledged to be dead and entombed accordingly. Canonically, some people still respect their memory and even try to worship them, but in a world where other gods are real and active, granting spells and boons, such people, who worship dead gods that cannot help them, are considered harmless eccentrics.
Margaret Murray's claims of the existence of a witch-cult in Europe over centuries and millennia, despite the lack of written sources, were rubbish scholarship when they were put forth and no academic with even a lick of sense accepts them today. Having the church of Girru survive in secret for twelve centuries would be exactly that sort of implausible nonsense.
Are there scholars who know of Girru? Yes. Are there people in modern Unther who pray to Girru and other ancient dead gods for various reasons, largely to reclaim some imagined patriotic heritage? Yes. Is there an unbroken tradition of a secret church of Girru that somehow survived more than a thousand years after it was acknowledged that this god had died and had no more power? No. No, there isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Why would they renegade and embrace outcasts. When you see your friends executed for minor or even imagined mistakes, your life's work destroyed and the government and its agents threatening you, beating you, extorting money from you. It starts to turn thoughts towards revenge, then you are forced out of your home and find yourself with others of like mind (vengeance against the authorities). It starts off as beating up a few government thugs, then stealing some taxes, then burning down a building, and soon enough you are a full blown revolutionary.
Not many people start off as evil anarchists (or even good anarchists) but they can be driven to it by an evil government that persecutes its citizens (but not all of them).
You're projecting the mad Gilgeam of the 1350s and the tyranny perpetuated in his name far into the mists of the distant past. Gilgeam wasn't persecuting anyone for believing in other Untheri gods, dead or alive, in -700 DR or in 200 DR. Active persecution only started in the 1300s, though these older faiths had long before that become less than fashionable and rejected by most ambitious people, as it was clear that the road to success in Unther lay in the favour of Gilgeam and therefore worship of him.
As far as I can tell, Chessenta and the cities of the League of Samathar rebelled because the Second Untheric Empire had grown weak and ineffectual, not because it was any more tyrannical than the average empire. Gilgeam's ennui turned to bitterness over centuries of setbacks, which he failed to prevent and eventually stopped trying to do more than occasionally acting to 'defend' his own person and power, which led to the paranoid persecutions of his late reign.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ed is a master at weaving lore, and provides great generalisations of events. There is always an exception or two however, which is how we get such a rich variety ancient ruins, organisations, living and undead survivors and magical artefacts (not referring to power level more in an archaeological sense). Almost all the Black Flame order were lost to the planes, but it only takes for a handful to survive and return to Faerun you have the basis for the enclave and the Red Wizards without contradicting the general consensus (especially if even the survivors consider the order lost and disbanded).
It also only takes a handful of spellbooks for someone who lived centuries after you to know your spells. That's the most reasonable and plausible explanation for why the spells of one group of mages were used by another group. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 00:27:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If Thayd was a Suel Lich, why couldn't he also be Ythazz? -That would be a perfect example of Occam's Razor.
Ythazz gets too close to wherever Thayd had his phylactory hidden, and Thayd possesses Ythazz, thus both of them are involved in the revolution.
Now, since we are already theorizing that Ythazz was sticking his nose in where it didn't belong, there may have been other potent 'things of magic' he was after, and amongst all that could have been a copy of a Black Flame spell book, and from that the order of 'Red Wizards' came about (and created Thay).
Now, I know Icelander is going to chime in here that thayd predated the Black Flame guys by 1200 years. So what if that cache Ythazz found had belonged to that order, and that order itself had come about - over the years - as the descendants of the followers of Thayd? It would have been a very small, secret order for several centuries, until it finally grew enough in size and power to be recognized as such around 229 DR (in other words, it DIDN'T 'just spring-up out of nowhere', but had been around a VERY long time, and it had only become pubic knowledge in 229 DR). During that time, they kept their existence a secret because Thayd had become public enemy #1 in the Mulan lands. Also, his direct disciples - his apprentices - would have known about his power and contingencies. Suppose Thayd trapped his soul in an amulet of great power. His followers then took said amulet and stored it in a special box made out of magic-dead wood (or whatever other material your heart desires), for safe-keeping until such a time when they would grow in power enough for Thayd to return (in other words, none of them wanted to be possessed by him LOL).
Then that group gets wiped-out (or nearly so - I still need to use an arm of it down in the uE), but most of their horde of magic remained in hidden caches around the OE. Ythazz comes along and researches them, and finds one of the hiding spots - the main one. He opens the box, and detects great magic off the amulet... and dons it. And that is that - he gets taken-over by Thayd (who is probably kind of pissed his followers locked him away for 1200 years). Now, we can imagine that Ythazz may have broken-free of the control at some point, or perhaps he was old, or had gotten sorely wounded, and Thayd switched bodies (or maybe he just managed to fight for control against Thayd - maybe he was fighting him the whole time). That part of the story doesn't matter - it can be spun any way someone wants it to have gone. In the end, both men were 'involved' in the revolution.
I just had an interesting idea - what if 'Thayd' was an alias? What if he was actually Ambuchar Devyam (Tan Chin) the whole time? It would explain what Tan Chin was doing for several thousand years. Thus, after the Thayan revolution, he returns to Solon? It's not a necessary add, but it might be fun to spin things that way. Ed had originally meant for Thay to be his 'Far East' type of Realm, so if we wanted to give it a bit of an eastern vibe (at least, early on), having that guy be involved in its founding would make sense. t would also explain his intense fascination with Imaskari magic*. Or not... work either way.
*And to take this line of thought a step further, it would explain why those magics wer so powerful and important, and were later considered the cornerstone of Red Wizard magic (as per the timeline entry for the Black Flame Mages).
Because a Suel Lich has to possess a living person. Ythazz is introduced in Spellbound as being a demilich. Theoretically, that should mean that he's spent a lot of time as a lich. Also, he's known as Thayd in Ed's work, and it says he was known for burning out bodies within days.
The idea of Thayd himself as a Suel Lich does work for the Black Flame wizards. In fact, if Thayd had perhaps gone on to possess a dragon at some point after his "death", the dragon being powerful enough that Thayd doesn't immediately burn it out... he could have had followers maybe in Unther who formed the black flame. Hmmm, would it be interesting if Tchazzar is a child "born" of Thayd when he possessed Tchazzar's father or mother? Perhaps Thayd continued to survive in this dragon, until it finally died due to burn out a few years later. Tchazzar's sudden attack on the Wizard's Reach right after the Thayan revolution may have had something to do with Thayd (perhaps an attempt to kill Thayd while he was visiting Samathar of the League of Samathar to arrange an alliance). I'd wondered at one point if Thayd had taken on draconic form after the Thayan Revolution as well (because one of his Zulkirs, Ilkrim Hlannadar, was known as the "Dragondevoured" after he betrayed Thayd... noting this was before the Zulkirate... so there were different types of Zulkirs). If this were true, might he have possessed a relative or lover of Tchazzar's. The idea that the Zulkirate also formed (1030 DR after years of infighting, probably after Thayd's death) right around the time of the dragon craziness (1018 DR) lends itself to the idea that Thayd in dragon form may have died in 1018 DR.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 20:47:26
Unther had some really powerful mages but for some reason around 100 DR they all started migrating away. We have mention of more than a few in Athalantar.
There are numerous revolutionary groups in Unther composed entirely of mages.
I decided that Gilgeam did his usual thing to power groups and persecuted them out of fear and paranoia until they left or rebelled.
So how did the Church of Girre survive 1000 years after his death. I could give a very well known real world example of this but i'll just leave it as anything is possible.
Why would they renegade and embrace outcasts. When you see your friends executed for minor or even imagined mistakes, your life's work destroyed and the government and its agents threatening you, beating you, extorting money from you. It starts to turn thoughts towards revenge, then you are forced out of your home and find yourself with others of like mind (vengeance against the authorities). It starts off as beating up a few government thugs, then stealing some taxes, then burning down a building, and soon enough you are a full blown revolutionary.
Not many people start off as evil anarchists (or even good anarchists) but they can be driven to it by an evil government that persecutes its citizens (but not all of them).
After the revolution is destroyed the survivors flee, possibly intending to return and get revenge but after they move away (get stranded in Thay or take up residence in an extra planar stronghold) they soon find the fires of revolution go out. They get used to the quiet life where nobody bothers them. They get old and their perspective changes. Finally they die and their protégé's do not have the same values or experience as they do, the protégé's of the protégé's couldn't care less about what happened in a land they have never been to before they were born.
Over time the enclave evolves from revolutionaries to quiet cataloguers of magic, waiting to celebrate Gilgeam's death but not willing to do anything to hasten it. Those in Thay meanwhile have devolved into a faction of the Red Wizards that specialise in flame based magic or perhaps the black flame has become nothing more than a symbol or title to reward Red Wizards who perform great deeds, their memory long since forgotten and only their names and spells remain.
Ed is a master at weaving lore, and provides great generalisations of events. There is always an exception or two however, which is how we get such a rich variety ancient ruins, organisations, living and undead survivors and magical artefacts (not referring to power level more in an archaeological sense). Almost all the Black Flame order were lost to the planes, but it only takes for a handful to survive and return to Faerun you have the basis for the enclave and the Red Wizards without contradicting the general consensus (especially if even the survivors consider the order lost and disbanded). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 19:53:05
Well, thats thing. Historically, we have groups that 'were no more', when in reality they just were hidden and then rebranded themselves as something else. In fact, it happens way more often then people realize.
So, because 'history' says one thing, doesn't actually make it (quite) so. If that applies to RW history, then I would imagine it should apply to fictional history with at least equal fervor.
For example, history says the Nazis were completely defeated and 'made to not exist anymore'. And yet, there is tons and tons of evidence large numbers of them continued on in Argentina and elsewhere (and if you like pulp stories, there are hundreds of 'hidden Nazi bases' everywhere, especially in comics). 
Hail Hydra. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 18:08:48
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I made the black flame order arise from wizards that Gilgeam persecuted and the church of unther's fire God which he also decided to persecute.
No doubt Gilgeam persecuted a vast number of individual wizards, because of their familial connections, political stances, religious beliefs and/or lack of loyalty, perceived or otherwise.
There is no reason to believe, however, that wizards as a class or group have ever been persecuted in Unther, at least not merely because they were wizards. In fact, we have extensive canon in Ed's novels and other writings, that all through recorded history of Faerun, Unther has been home to powerful, prosperous mages, some of whom have hired themselves out as mercenaries and court mages.
There was never any suggestion that such spellhurlers-for-hire were forced to leave Unther or would have any kind of difficulty going back there with the fruits of their hire. Unther just seems to be a place where a lot of wizards come from, much like India and doctors.
Of course, that doesn't prevent Gilgeam from persecuting groups of wizards whom he deems traitorous or disloyal. As he did for the Enclave and Northern Wizards at the end of his reign and as he might have done for the Black Flame.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The renegade wizards had been around for a while, but the now renegade church gave them organisation. They tried to setup a land for themselves in unther and attracted wizards from mulhorand and elsewhere but ultimately failed and the organisation was destroyed.
Do you have any explanation why the church of Girru would have survived for around thirteen centuries after the death of the god?
Or for why the church of a Lawful Good god of fire, viewed as a purifying force, would have supported mages who viewed flame as a dark force?
Are you sure you wouldn't prefer to link Eltabranar, Eltab and southern 'barbarians' using various demonic powers and magics to these mages?
After all, these actually were involved in Unther's history at the same time as the Black Flame was founded (Eltabranar fell in 211 DR and the Black Flame was founded in 229 DR), whereas the Orcgate Wars and the death of Girru took place more than a millennia before.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
A number of wizards fled, the greatest concentration found an extradimensional space used by the imaskari long ago. From there some fled to the far flung reaches of imaskar's former borders (including Thay) while others stayed and formed the enclave (with their base in the extradimensional portal nexus).
That's fair enough. I prefer that the Black Flame and the Enclave represent very different approaches to planar magics, but I certainly agree that placing the Enclave's secret base in an extradimensional portal nexus is a wonderful idea.
The way I view the Enclave is that they study the Outer Planes cautiously and regard it as their duty to keep the integrity of planar borders of Toril strong, while the Black Flame consisted of mages who were willing to take risks and leave any potential weakening in the fabric of reality as a hypothetical problem for future generations.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So it's true that the black flame order remnants fled to the planes and then some came back to faerun. Doesn't contradict anything it just adds a little bit extra which is fine in my book.
Ed Greenwood, as omniscient narrator, says those who were not destroyed by rivals were 'lost' on travels to other planes. Fleeing implies volition, a decision to leave Toril for some other place, whereas becoming lost while travelling implies having been killed, disabled or otherwise prevented from returning from a journey due to circumstances beyond your control. Compare 'lost at sea'. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 17:51:36
I made the black flame order arise from wizards that Gilgeam persecuted and the church of unther's fire God which he also decided to persecute.
The renegade wizards had been around for a while, but the now renegade church gave them organisation. They tried to setup a land for themselves in unther and attracted wizards from mulhorand and elsewhere but ultimately failed and the organisation was destroyed.
A number of wizards fled, the greatest concentration found an extradimensional space used by the imaskari long ago. From there some fled to the far flung reaches of imaskar's former borders (including Thay) while others stayed and formed the enclave (with their base in the extradimensional portal nexus).
So it's true that the black flame order remnants fled to the planes and then some came back to faerun. Doesn't contradict anything it just adds a little bit extra which is fine in my book. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 17:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to admit Thay's history is a weak spot of mine (along with the Old Empires) - I find it all very confusing. My bad for screwing up the timeline in regards to when Thay was founded. I forget that somehow Thay was founded and named after Thayd a couple of thousand years after he died... which makes ZERO sense. Just one more reason why I avoid all the OE stuff. I had meant that they had gone there around the time Thay itself was being founded - forget I mentioned Thayd.
I've always thought of the naming of Thay as equivalent to the naming of such places as Cincinnati, i.e. a classical name chosen for the associations it had to the educated men who named it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You are very insistent that the Black Flames guys all died. 'Canon' is pretty much meaningless - its only good until the next edition arrives (I'm figuring another year and we get a 6e announcement).
The challenge and fun of using a published setting, or using the real world as a setting, for that matter, is that you accept what happened in the history of that setting and invent only what fits between what is known.
Personally, I don't really like the direction that Hasbro has taken the setting, especially with the focus on major catastrophes and, lately, huge time jumps, instead of building on what has come before and detailing what remains largely the same setting, with the same ever growing cast of characters, but that just means that I don't bother to buy new Hasbro products, set my games in the 1300s DR and pick and choose what lore I use from whomever Hasbro chooses to employ for their official product.
It doesn't mean that I disregard what Ed says about the Realms. Especially not when it makes much more sense than having every single historical figure be yet another historical figure in disguise, everyone being secretly immortal and no one born after the start of Dale Reckoning really having done anything noteworthy without the invisible hand of long-dead supermen having guided them.
What Ed wrote doesn't preclude the discovery of one of the founding members of the Black Flame as a long-imprisoned lich or soul-jarred mage lost on another plane. It does, however, firmly indicate that they didn't just move to the next country or continue to exist under another name.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I did way back in the Utter East stuff - and still trying to do here - is figure out how some of them may have carried on in secret, or become something else. YES, nothing official connects the two groups, but it is still fun to theorize on how it may be possible. They could be useful to someone wanting an interesting plothook for there games (like finding a journal from a member who was part of a small enclave that fled north, to avoid persecution).
One or two ancient archmages 'surviving' as mummies, liches or something more exotic can be cool. Every single power group from the past still existing despite having clearly been described as destroyed and centuries or millennia have passed since all of them would have died by natural causes even if they survived somehow at first... well, that's just tacky.
I didn't mind Larloch, Halaster and one or two sarrukh having survived by convoluted means. The Shade enclave, Deep Imaskar and dozens if not hundreds of sarrukh surviving tens of millennia was cheesy and served to cheapen the dramatic impact of any 'ancient' or 'lost' civilisations.
A historical event, personage or group can be an adventure hook without the principals having survived into the modern era. The Realms are a literate society and books are the most common way for information to be preserved.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And when Ed writes, he dosn't use official timelines, he uses his own. When he wrote that throw-away timeline entry he probably meant for it to be connected to Thay's founding, but 'official' timelines screw it all up (I've heard stories about how hard it was to try and get all of Ed's lore into one, consistent timeline - it is an on-going and monumental task). Thus, I would be more apt to change HIS date and have stuff align better with what was most-likely intended.
Why would Ed have intended the founding of Thay to have taken place much earlier than it did? Or the Black Flame cabal of Unther to have been directly involved |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 16:11:29
If Thayd was a Suel Lich, why couldn't he also be Ythazz? -That would be a perfect example of Occam's Razor.
Ythazz gets too close to wherever Thayd had his phylactory hidden, and Thayd possesses Ythazz, thus both of them are involved in the revolution.
Now, since we are already theorizing that Ythazz was sticking his nose in where it didn't belong, there may have been other potent 'things of magic' he was after, and amongst all that could have been a copy of a Black Flame spell book, and from that the order of 'Red Wizards' came about (and created Thay).
Now, I know Icelander is going to chime in here that thayd predated the Black Flame guys by 1200 years. So what if that cache Ythazz found had belonged to that order, and that order itself had come about - over the years - as the descendants of the followers of Thayd? It would have been a very small, secret order for several centuries, until it finally grew enough in size and power to be recognized as such around 229 DR (in other words, it DIDN'T 'just spring-up out of nowhere', but had been around a VERY long time, and it had only become pubic knowledge in 229 DR). During that time, they kept their existence a secret because Thayd had become public enemy #1 in the Mulan lands. Also, his direct disciples - his apprentices - would have known about his power and contingencies. Suppose Thayd trapped his soul in an amulet of great power. His followers then took said amulet and stored it in a special box made out of magic-dead wood (or whatever other material your heart desires), for safe-keeping until such a time when they would grow in power enough for Thayd to return (in other words, none of them wanted to be possessed by him LOL).
Then that group gets wiped-out (or nearly so - I still need to use an arm of it down in the uE), but most of their horde of magic remained in hidden caches around the OE. Ythazz comes along and researches them, and finds one of the hiding spots - the main one. He opens the box, and detects great magic off the amulet... and dons it. And that is that - he gets taken-over by Thayd (who is probably kind of pissed his followers locked him away for 1200 years). Now, we can imagine that Ythazz may have broken-free of the control at some point, or perhaps he was old, or had gotten sorely wounded, and Thayd switched bodies (or maybe he just managed to fight for control against Thayd - maybe he was fighting him the whole time). That part of the story doesn't matter - it can be spun any way someone wants it to have gone. In the end, both men were 'involved' in the revolution.
I just had an interesting idea - what if 'Thayd' was an alias? What if he was actually Ambuchar Devyam (Tan Chin) the whole time? It would explain what Tan Chin was doing for several thousand years. Thus, after the Thayan revolution, he returns to Solon? It's not a necessary add, but it might be fun to spin things that way. Ed had originally meant for Thay to be his 'Far East' type of Realm, so if we wanted to give it a bit of an eastern vibe (at least, early on), having that guy be involved in its founding would make sense. It would also explain Thayd's intense fascination with Imaskari magic*. Or not... works either way.
*And to take this line of thought a step further, it would explain why those magics were so powerful and important, and were later considered the cornerstone of Red Wizard magic (as per the timeline entry for the Black Flame Mages). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 14:09:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to admit Thay's history is a weak spot of mine (along with the Old Empires) - I find it all very confusing. My bad for screwing up the timeline in regards to when Thay was founded. I forget that somehow Thay was founded and named after Thayd a couple of thousand years after he died... which makes ZERO sense. Just one more reason why I avoid all the OE stuff. I had meant that they had gone there around the time Thay itself was being founded - forget I mentioned Thayd.
You are very insistent that the Black Flames guys all died. 'Canon' is pretty much meaningless - its only good until the next edition arrives (I'm figuring another year and we get a 6e announcement). What I did way back in the Utter East stuff - and still trying to do here - is figure out how some of them may have carried on in secret, or become something else. YES, nothing official connects the two groups, but it is still fun to theorize on how it may be possible. They could be useful to someone wanting an interesting plothook for there games (like finding a journal from a member who was part of a small enclave that fled north, to avoid persecution).
And when Ed writes, he dosn't use official timelines, he uses his own. When he wrote that throw-away timeline entry he probably meant for it to be connected to Thay's founding, but 'official' timelines screw it all up (I've heard stories about how hard it was to try and get all of Ed's lore into one, consistent timeline - it is an on-going and monumental task). Thus, I would be more apt to change HIS date and have stuff align better with what was most-likely intended.
I forget where we were going with all that in the Utter East material - i think we had imagined a color-based magic system for the OE back then (mages wearing colors corresponding to what today would be thought of as 'schools'). In fact, there is at least one magic school (in Chessenta, IIRC, but maybe Unther) that does just that - the students and faculty wear colors representing their 'schools' of speciality. And almost parallel to Eberron lore, we figured the 'Black' school was Necromancy and that why the other schools (and the Mulan) turned on them (and in Eberron - that Dragonmark still exists in secret - House Vol). I think we had a 'White Order' that represented the Mulan priesthood ('life'/Divine magic), and a gray order that was druidic in nature ('neutrality'). Its been so many years since we came up with all that - i need to go find that thread and archive it soon.
Per Ed, Thayd was involved in the revolution. So, he may have died two thousand years prior, but he was back to aid the Thayan revolution. However, we also have this story that Ythazz Buvarr ALSO led the revolution. Occam's Razor then says that there was more than one leader, and history is somewhat being rewritten by the "victor" (as in Ythazz survived Thayd... though Ythazz then got trapped beneath Bezantur). So, SOMEHOW Thayd came back, and WHILE he was back he acted much like a Suel Lich. Where he was prior... where he is now... all up for grabs, and I'm leaning vestige.
As to the black flame all dying out, per canon that's not the case. The statement says some were "lost in other planes".... hell, that could scream vestige. It could also scream some just went somewhere else (even the elemental planes). If they survive several centuries with occasional contact with the realms, they could easily return to join in the revolution (hell, they could be another faction leading said revolution... maybe they still harbor resentment).
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 04:18:53
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
No, I mean in 4e they killed him off and turned his corpse into abyssal carpet.
Well, I've never played a Realms game set later than 1373 DR, so that doesn't matter for any game I'm likely to play.
Sooo...does that mean Merrshaulk is Yig?
It might interest you to know that the "lesser" Great Old Ones are described in Pathfinder. They basically occupy the same strata of power as demon lords and the Lords of the Nine, and range from CR 27 - 30.
http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tsathoggua |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 03:48:42
I have to admit Thay's history is a weak spot of mine (along with the Old Empires) - I find it all very confusing. My bad for screwing up the timeline in regards to when Thay was founded. I forget that somehow Thay was founded and named after Thayd a couple of thousand years after he died... which makes ZERO sense. Just one more reason why I avoid all the OE stuff. I had meant that they had gone there around the time Thay itself was being founded - forget I mentioned Thayd.
You are very insistent that the Black Flames guys all died. 'Canon' is pretty much meaningless - its only good until the next edition arrives (I'm figuring another year and we get a 6e announcement). What I did way back in the Utter East stuff - and still trying to do here - is figure out how some of them may have carried on in secret, or become something else. YES, nothing official connects the two groups, but it is still fun to theorize on how it may be possible. They could be useful to someone wanting an interesting plothook for there games (like finding a journal from a member who was part of a small enclave that fled north, to avoid persecution).
And when Ed writes, he dosn't use official timelines, he uses his own. When he wrote that throw-away timeline entry he probably meant for it to be connected to Thay's founding, but 'official' timelines screw it all up (I've heard stories about how hard it was to try and get all of Ed's lore into one, consistent timeline - it is an on-going and monumental task). Thus, I would be more apt to change HIS date and have stuff align better with what was most-likely intended.
I forget where we were going with all that in the Utter East material - i think we had imagined a color-based magic system for the OE back then (mages wearing colors corresponding to what today would be thought of as 'schools'). In fact, there is at least one magic school (in Chessenta, IIRC, but maybe Unther) that does just that - the students and faculty wear colors representing their 'schools' of speciality. And almost parallel to Eberron lore, we figured the 'Black' school was Necromancy and that why the other schools (and the Mulan) turned on them (and in Eberron - that Dragonmark still exists in secret - House Vol). I think we had a 'White Order' that represented the Mulan priesthood ('life'/Divine magic), and a gray order that was druidic in nature ('neutrality'). Its been so many years since we came up with all that - i need to go find that thread and archive it soon.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 01:32:22
Ah, I'll disagree there. Most of the red wizards were Mulhorandi because the territory was held by Mulhorand, but I don't see them having an issue with say Untheric Mulans. They were after all separating themselves from Mulhorand and disavowing the gods there. So, the majority were probably Mulhorandi blooded, but it was a Mulan movement.
The issue I see coming in was with the Narfellian blooded, the Rashemi blooded, and the Halruaans that all joined in (which the question naturally becomes what percentage of wizards came from these factions, and I'd probably put them at less than 20%... but probably they were also more powerful than the average red wizard) . Granted, after say a generation, I'm betting some of this became moot, as these other groups probably bred with Mulans (even if of a lesser social stratum). Then after several generations when the actual Zulkirate formed, these "outsiders", such as Velsharoon and probably Zhengyi, were most likely forced out by the racially biased Mulans. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 18:21:37
Note that the Red Wizards adopted wholesale the racialist policies of Mulhorandi priesthoods and while there certainly exist examples whose pureblood Mulan bloodlines are more or less fraudulent*, it simply doesn't make sense for such a racial restriction to exist at all unless the original Red Wizards were pureblooded Mulan.
And while the 3e sources say 'Mulan', as far as I can tell, the actual practice is someone who can trace their bloodline to an upper class Mulhorandi family, of the ruling class of the Priador and other provinces where modern Thay now stands. There is no suggestion that visiting Untheri archmages have ever been accepted as Red Wizards, or indeed, as anything but foreigners. Probably viewed as a marginally better class of foreigner, but still foreign.
*In precisely the same way as subjects of the Spanish crown would sometimes procure forged certificates of blood purity. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 14:07:59
Also, just since I had been talking about the whole Tyr, Lathander (Frey), Sune (Freya), Helm (Heimdall), thing in relation to Cyric's (Loki's) imprisonment in the Supreme Throne, etc... where he's to be tortured and driven mad by the dropping of a giant snake's venom (I mean, um, the winds drive him mad and torture him)....
I find it MUCH more palatable of a story that Helm's, Lathander's and Tyr's deaths are just a ruse.... because telling the populace of the world "we have to go away because we have to stop an incursion of great evil from an alternate universe from coming over and overwhelming you all" is not as welcome a story to hear than "Um, Tyr got jealous and smacked Helm because .... Um, there was a misunderstanding about who was in love with the goddess of luck". Also, that Sune is involved with all of this (sending the goddess of luck to Tyr... taking Ilmater and Siamorphe in... and later helping lock away Cyric) makes me think it would be a good storyline if she was a "lifeline" of some sort for Helm, Tyr, and Lathander outside of the Supreme Throne. Throw into all of this mix the involvement of Savras, Leira, and Mask to help foresee things, fake things, and engender various intrigues (and possibly lead Kezef the Chaos Hound on a merry chase for a century or so, so that it doesn't pursue Tyr).
And as long as I'm releasing a bunch of vestiges.... just because I like Chupoclops... maybe the great soul eating primordial spider was also released from the place where vestiges go.... wouldn't Lolth just possibly either hate OR love that. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 13:01:54
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
you know, said spells became the bulk of the arsenal of the red wizards.
the city of Omu in chult was placed there because it was cool and it was something that was never there in past lore as it was not known outsideo f Chult and I doubt any Chultans would have told.
now back to the Black Flame wizards. IS it possible those that were lost in the planes came back to the Realms and swiped their old spells and became the Red Wizards?
that would have been something forgotten.....
I've always posited that the red wizards have multiple sources that joined together to form themselves, and many of these were already powerful. Just to throw out some I've thought should be involved.
Mulan wizards living in the Priador and Mulhorand
Wizards specializing in necromancy from "the Boneyard" or Pholzubbalt, the mausoleum city, of Mulan bloodlines.
Wizards of fallen Narfell, whether studiers of the past or actual "living" individuals (including Zhengyi and Jorgmacdon)
Red Wizards fleeing persecution in Halruaa (including Velsharoon)
Wizards from the League of Samathar along what comes to be known as the Wizard's Reach, many of Mulan bloodlines.
Wizards of the Black Flame who had fled persecution in Unther. Some of these were "lost in other planes". What exactly those planes were (in fact... to open the concept further... see below talking about Thayd being a vestige at times and at other times possibly occupying the world). If binders/anima mages who "bind" the vestige known as Thayd are surrounded by Black Flames as part of the "sign" of his vestige, that could also explain things.
Rashemi blooded wizards also in the Priador who continued to study the battlemagics and construct creation magics of the Raumathari.
Theurgist Adepts who had survived since the time of the fall of Thayd or who had been "rescued"/awakened from their sanctuaries by a surviving follower of Thayd. In this, I had placed Ythazz Buvarr as a lesser but surviving member of the theurgist adepts who had over centuries grown to greatness and eventually becoming a lich (and shortly after forming Thay, becoming a demilich).
So, returning back to the original topic here, one could ALSO tie the black flame to Thayd... because one thing we've established is that Thayd seems to work "like" a Suel Lich (but not a Suel... but he survived the catastrophe of Imaskar's fall much like Suel liches survived their fall). The one thing about Suel Liches is that they are surrounded by "Black Flames". It may very well have been that Thayd had returned and helped form this Black Flame, or somehow they had contacted his spirit. One of the things that I'd done with Thayd personally is having him getting destroyed following the Thayan revolt, but having him become a vestige. I think it can be useful if Thayd is this individual who has some kind of ties to the place where vestiges go (and binders). In fact, I think all the Theurgist Adepts should be Anima Mages (binder/wizards) and this is why the established religions wanted to see them fall.
Finally, I think the artifact beneath Amruthar was known before Thay, and that Thayd knew about it. How it interacted with things is best left to each individual DM in my viewpoint for now.
Note, in the above, several of these groups I would link back to Thayd and his theurgist adepts in some form. For instance, Pholzubbalt, the Mausoleum City, is formed AROUND the time of Thayd's uprising by Mulan necromancers. The Black Flame MAY have had involvement with Thayd. We know from Ed lore that Thayd WAS involved with the formation of Thay and that he somewhat acts like a Suel Lich at that time (but he burns out bodies MUCH faster). If there were individuals studying/using the artifact beneath Amruthar, they may have also been involved with Thayd's studies. The big tie I have to Thayd personally is between him and Ythazz Buvarr, and I make Ythazz a very much long lived individual... because I think any lich that devolves into demilichdom should have survived millennia and not just centuries. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 12:36:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Black Flame Magi (actually a type of clerical Sha'ir) were mostly wiped out, and the few remaining fled to Sentaria (pre-Thay Thay, and yes, its my own term, but I really HATE how the designers refer to regions by their national names thousands - sometimes tens of thousands - of years before such places ever existed!)
How about the Priador then? That is what it was referred to as by the Mulhorandi. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 12:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
If Tsathoggua is Ramenos, that's a sad way for him to go.
quote:
In that secret cave in the bowels of Voormithadreth . . . abides from eldermost eons the god Tsathoggua. You shall know Tsathoggua by his great girth and his batlike furriness and the look of a sleepy black toad which he has eternally. He will rise not from his place, even in the ravening of hunger, but will wait in divine slothfulness for the sacrifice.
Sounds pretty spot on as a description of Ramenos.
I dunno... batlike furriness does not sound like Ramenos to me. That being said, nearly everything else matches up. He does make for a decent "Old One", and the fact that Ramenos led his people to the Supreme Throne... a place where the sound of the wind will drive a person mad.... and where wild magic occurs and all priests of other faiths are weakened... I could see there being some ties to the place where the "mad gods/old ones dwell".
I've also theorized in the past that Limbo may be a place with links to the Far Realm and the place where Vestiges go. Since Cyric pulled the Supreme Throne FROM limbo, I wouldn't be surprised if his actions didn't allow for some things that happened later (Tenebrous getting free, Amon becoming free and possibly recombining with At'ar, Acererak getting freed, possibly Karsus getting freed, etc... could all be related to the Supreme Throne "existing" in "this" universe). The story of Cyric being trapped in the Supreme Throne may indeed have entirely different meaning. Perhaps they simply shut the door against a great evil intent on destroying everything.... placing Heimd... I mean Helm as a guardian/sentry on the path and supplementing him with the gods Tyr and Lathander(Frethander/Frey) against some greater power of Fire/Destruction (such as the Elder Elemental Eye) for which the release of Imix, Bazim-Gorag, and other primordial/elemental beings served as harbinger for its release. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 10:07:14
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
No, there is nothing canon linking the Black Flame wizards to the Black Flame Zealots or Kossuth. In fact, prior to 3e, I don't believe Kossuth possessed the moniker of "the Black Flame", and he only gained it after the black flame zealots were created, and honestly, I only think that title (the black flame) is used in reference to Kossuth in the GHotR.
Fair enough.
I would say that it sounds more likely to me, at least, that the 'Black Flame' moniker for Kossuth is a regional flourish from Thay (or possibly originally the Wizard's Reach, formerly part of Unther), whereby a currently worshipped and popular deity is given attributes of earlier strata of worship.
Worship of fire as a destructive, dark force, as opposed to the bright, cleansing, spiritually pure force it was regarded in older Untheric tradition, seems like a natural enough creed for many groups to come up with independently. It also seems like something that a cabal of secular scholars of destructive magic might have called themselves without viewing themselves as religious or dedicated to any particular patron god, even though they may (or may not) have paid tribute to any number of dark elemental forces and fiendish patrons.
Basically, I'd expect a huge number of pit fiends, balors, archdevils, demon princes, elemental princes and other extraplanar beings to have been called 'Dark Fire', 'Black Flame', 'Ebonflame', 'Shadow and Flame', 'Umbral Inferno', 'Tenebrous Blaze', 'Aphotic Embers' or any number of similar things.
Just as J.R.R. Tolkien has Gandalf excoriate a balrog by telling him that 'The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udűn!', it's a pretty intuitive thing to call any force or being that represent fire in its destructive form, as opposed to the form that warms people's homes, cooks their food and makes civilisation possible.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, taking the later references, given that they are so closely linked (i.e. Unther is right near "the Priador, the wizards produced magic surrounding fire, and Thayans study their work, etc..), I can only imagine that probably some surviving members were involved with the Thayan revolt.
But there weren't any surviving members on Abeir-Toril. That's our starting point. That's the lore as originally presented by Ed Greenwood. We can elaborate around that as we please, but we are bound by the canon fact that the Black Flame was founded in 229 DR and came to an end in 249 DR when all its members had been destroyed by rivals or lost in travels on other planes.
Even if one of the lost members found his way back to Toril, not every powerful magic-user needs to be an immortal meddler in every historic event. For every archmage that cheats death for a century or three, Ed's Realms have always had several who died and who were afterwards only important through their legacies, whether that is the books they wrote, the descendants they had or the discoveries they made.
If every cabal of mages who ever existed still exists in some form, that detracts from the impact of occasional ancient survivals. It also makes lost tomes of lore irrelevant, because their writers would still be around to publish 'Special Editions', where Mystryl shot first, the effects are redone and young Halaster is played by a whiny brat.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Kossuth worship is so big in the area such that when the city of Kensten was rebuilt they built a new temple dedicated to him, so if these "black flame" wizards were exploring the "ruins of Raumathar" they would have likely run across worshippers of Kossuth from time to time.
Note that the Black Flame was a cabal of Untheri wizards that existed for a single generation in the 3rd century DR. It is true that I'm looking to detail the researches of one or more of them, but we'll have to keep in mind that they were not necessarily numerous or ubiquitous, but rather that they are important in a historical sense because the Red Wizards later made use of many of their spells. Thus, they are either inventors of spells or archaeologists of magic, but they might not have numbered more than a single 'adventuring party' of powerful plane-walking mages.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Along these lines, just prior to the avatar crisis was also when the Zulkirs created the portal which summoned a vast horde of fire creatures. Then the salamander war happened. Then the future Zulkir of Evocation, Aznar Thrul, supposedly worked with "Kossuth" to get an army of fire elementals by offering his service. For all we know, this also had something to do with the artifact suddenly stopping working a few months later after the avatar crisis.
If this artifact had anything to do with fire, that would be a sound guess and the explanation that I would personally favour. 'When you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras.'
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Toward this end, one can wonder as to the nature of many elemental entities who were suddenly released following the spellplague. There was Bazim-Gorag as well, who was also of fiery origin. Might we find out something like Kossuth was not on Toril in the spellplague years? Perhaps others were using his name?
Bazim-Gorag used to be a batrachi, which is interesting from my perspective. At one point, he might have been a batrachi archmage (or archpriest (of Y'chak, The Violet Flame, perhaps?), if there was even a difference in those days) living in the batrachi empires that preceded Okoth in the lands that became the Old Empires. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 08:20:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And while you maintain that there is no connection, in the thing I quoted above there is most certainly a connection between Thay and the Black Flame. I did explain it about, but didn't bother to write the whole scenario; I picture it going something like this...
There is a canonical connection between some of the spells that the Black Flame used and the arcane arsenal of the Red Wizards of Thay.
This does not mean that there needs to be any continuity in membership or philosophy between the two organisations. In fact, as spellbooks and created spells often outlive their creators, it would be noteworthy if any such link existed. The most probable connection is that some of the early Red Wizards had studied the magic of the Black Flame, in the form of journals, spellbooks and various knick-nacks left behind when the original magi were killed or lost on other planes.
In other words, exactly the same connection as for any number of real world scholars who have studied the works of earlier academics, writers and philosophers.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Black Flame Magi (actually a type of clerical Sha'ir) were mostly wiped out, and the few remaining fled to Sentaria (pre-Thay Thay, and yes, its my own term, but I really HATE how the designers refer to regions by their national names thousands - sometimes tens of thousands - of years before such places ever existed!) There they kept their traditions alive - just barely - until the arrival of thayd and his followers.
Not only does this go again what little canon we have on the issue, it also involves time travel. Thayd and his followers lived in -1,100 DR or so and the Black Flame existed from 229 DR to 249 DR.
Even if you mean the men who founded the Red Wizards of Thay in the 10th century DR, guided by some undead vestige of Thayd, it's important to realise that the land who'd become Thay was not wilderness at this time or some place where outlaws from Unther might freely gather. It was a province of Mulhorand and probably not a very welcoming place for Untheric speaking mages who did not know Mulhorandi customs and did not worship Mulhorandi deities.
In any event, moving to neighbouring Mulhorand is not the same as 'destroyed and lost in travels to other planes', so we know that this is not what happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I do find extremely odd is that the 'Black Flame' would have evolved into Red Wizards (the component that would have gone with Arcane Magic over divine). Modern Kossuth worshippers in Thay also wear red - I believe they are the ONLY group other than the Red Wizards allowed to do so (this was even mentioned in the trilogy, but they were supposed to wear a very different shade of red... the head guy did not, and it irked the Zulkirs).
We know for a fact that the 'Black Flame' did not evolve into anything. Ed Greenwood explicitly stated that they were destroyed and in the Grand History of the Realms it says that in 249 DR: "The cabal of wizards in Unther calling themselves the Black Flame is no more after its members are destroyed by rivals or lost in travels to other planes. They leave behind many powerful spells that later form much of the arsenal of the Red Wizards of Thay."
The Black Flame was destroyed, but some of their spells were left behind, as written spells will be, and later found their way into the arsenal of the Red Wizards of Thay. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 06:50:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And then there's the whole weirdness that Mulan are very light-skinned, which makes ZERO sense considering where they were from.
There have always been racialist theories of white-skinned 'original' Ancient Egyptians and that there was a fundamental racial difference between the Sumarians and the Akkadians (which, depending on how we define 'fundamental', might have some evidential support), and that one or the other of them were part of the 'Original White Race'. At the time the original Realmslore about the Mulan was written, such theories had more mainstream acceptance and were not only confined to a few fringe 'historians' and racists.
That being said, it's not like white skin and light hair and eyes are exclusive to Europeans. You do know that this guy comes from the exact place on Earth where the Untheric part of the Mulan slaves was taken? Not only is Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri whiter than a Klan Grand Dragon, he has flaming red hair and moustache!
All the same, considering the length of time that the Mulan were Imaskari slaves, I agree that they would have mixed with the slaver race/s. Also, the Imaskari Empire was long-lived enough so that all of our recorded Earth history could fit in it. Which makes it silly to assume that there was just one Imaskari race, just as it's impossible that there would have been just one Imskari language. They ruled a vast expanse of the world for a period about matching recorded Earth history.
No matter what the original tribe looked like or what their language was like, Imaskari history is long enough for them to have, through inter-marriage, adaptation, breeding for prestigious characteristics (to mention only some real world factors), gone through most of the language families known in the real world and many of the ethnic groups too.
The thousands of years of history in the Forgotten Realms do not mean anything if scribes keep forgetting how much languages, societies and people can change in just a few hundred years. A thousand years is enough for such diverse languages as Afrikaans, English, German (all varieties) and Yiddish to form from West Germanic. For all the similarities, an educated English speaker still doesn't stand much of a chance at comprehending the language that evolved into English as it sounded a 'mere' thousand years ago.
Two thousand years is enough for all the Romance languages to evolve from Latin. And three thousand years is enough so that some linguists propose that all Indo-European languages may have diverged from one original PIE language in that time (more common estimates are ca 4,500-6,000 years). Go back any further and a familial relationship could theoretically be proposed between almost any languages. We can't prove, one way or another, whether all the languages that came from the Eurasian steppes might not be related that far back into the mists of prehistory and various theories about a Turanian, Altaic, Ural-Altaic, Nostratic, Eurasiatic and/or Indo-Uralic macro- or superfamilies have been advanced.
The almost 10,000 years from the founding of Imaskar to the present Dale Reckoning are enough for a wide variety of language families to have descended from languages originally spoken in the lands of Imaskar. We might expect at least as much variation as that between the real-world language families of Indo-European (inc. Indo-Iranian, all the various Indic languages, various European Indo-European languages, etc.), Uralic (i.e. Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic languages), Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Chukchi–Kamchatkan, Yukaghir, Caucasic and Kartvelian.
In the people who descend from the former inhabitants, we should expect about as much variation in terms of phenotype, skin, hair and eye colour. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 06:05:25
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
No, I mean in 4e they killed him off and turned his corpse into abyssal carpet.
Well, I've never played a Realms game set later than 1373 DR, so that doesn't matter for any game I'm likely to play. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 04:08:37
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
If Tsathoggua is Ramenos, that's a sad way for him to go.
quote:
In that secret cave in the bowels of Voormithadreth . . . abides from eldermost eons the god Tsathoggua. You shall know Tsathoggua by his great girth and his batlike furriness and the look of a sleepy black toad which he has eternally. He will rise not from his place, even in the ravening of hunger, but will wait in divine slothfulness for the sacrifice.
Sounds pretty spot on as a description of Ramenos.
No, I mean in 4e they killed him off and turned his corpse into abyssal carpet. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 02:14:24
Not understanding the need to turn Spellweavers into Sarrukh. Whats the net gain there?
I like the idea that some of the Black Flame Magi 'left for elsewhere'. I was thinking more wild-magic type stuff (I'm reluctant to say 'they went to Abeir', since that is starting to get WAY over-used). I was thinking it could have been connected to the 'first' (AFAWK) time the Weave collapsed (Karsus' Folly), but the timing is WAY off (like over 500 years). On the other hand, these sorts of periodic 'mini RSE's' happen a lot, supposedly (like the ToT), and stuff gets swapped-around all the time. I was trying to think of somewhere interesting (other than Abeir) they might have gone - the only other setting with 'Black Wizards' that jumps to mind is Conan (although having them go to Stygia isn't much of a stretch - its supposed to be in Earth's past, and something of a proto-Egypt, so it could make some sense, especially if gods {*cough* SET *cough*} were involved).
Or we could just take the easy way out and play the Abeir card... AGAIN.
EDIT:
I just remembered - I actually did 'save' some of them and sent them down to the Utter east, back when I was doing the Utter East project/thread on the WotC boards.There was some sort of 'cowled' (black) wizards in the Blood & Magic video game, and since Mulhorand borders the Golden Waters (which borders the uE) it seemed like a good fit. The premise, I believe (working from memory) is that Mulhorand controlled the Golden Waters for a time, before their energies needed to be directed elsewhere (Thay, Unther, etc.). Basically, 'vasal states' for a short while, during their 'Golden Age' (that's when they also would have controlled both Murghôm and Sephar as well). So the Black Wizards begin to lose ground (are starting to come under attack by the Magepriests, who seem them as competition), and so they fleet to the 'hinterlands' of the empire. Not long after, they establish a new base of operations just to the south (in what may have been 'Ulgaria' back then).
I forget the name of that keep - I need to find that archived thread and turn it into a searchable document for myself. At the time of the Bloodforged Wars, there was only one 'Black Wizard' left. Anyhow, that's how we re-spun that lore way back when. Nothing says various groups could have gone in different directions. it may have been a very large organization at one point. Or (and we may have spun it that way), the reason why there was only one guy left down their in the Utter east was because most of them went to Thay when that was established.
Also, I think we may have toyed with the idea that some of that 'strange magic' they were playing with was Imaskari in origin, which would have definitely rubbed the other Mulan the wrong way...
Hmmmmm... does anything actually say that they were Mulan themselves? What if they were Turami? Would that work better? Or possibly even a leftover group of surviving Imaskari that was under constant attack through bigotry (not that I can blame the Mulan if that's the case). Maybe even half-bloods? I don't know if they would have allowed any 'pure' Imaskari to live at all (even the common folk that had nothing to do with the Artificers would have been persecuted).
And then there's the whole weirdness that Mulan are very light-skinned, which makes ZERO sense considering where they were from. Methinks the Mulan themselves were mostly half-breeds, and even though there was much hatred for the Imaskari, there may have been some lingering preference for 'lighter skin tones' among the rising survivor states (humans are a paradox). It could be the Imaskari-blooded Mulan were the upper class, and the darker people (who may have even been mixed with Turami, who the Mulan seemed to have looked down upon... ancient Egypt vs Nubians, much?)
I am only going this route in my musings here because we know how the Thayans feel about 'pure blooded Mulan', and I am trying to make some sense of that. Darker skin-toned magic-users may have been driven out (like perhaps these 'black flame' guys). So much so they even changed the organization from Black Wizards to Red Wizards (probably because of an early association with Kossuth).
And lastly, I think we even came up with an alternate 'white Order' as well, but I can't recall why. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 01:30:07
you know, said spells became the bulk of the arsenal of the red wizards.
the city of Omu in chult was placed there because it was cool and it was something that was never there in past lore as it was not known outsideo f Chult and I doubt any Chultans would have told.
now back to the Black Flame wizards. IS it possible those that were lost in the planes came back to the Realms and swiped their old spells and became the Red Wizards?
that would have been something forgotten..... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 21:36:02
Well the more I go over GKs article the more I find that is pure lore gold.
The spellweavers gather languages from all over the planes and multiverses, stands to reason they would have discovered more than a few words of power. They used the lesser ones to form the nether scrolls.
The baetith were actually made by spellweavers who underwent a total transformation into sarrukh, and then taught those words of power to the sarrukh and how to bind them to anchors that mean those between the weave could use those words of power much cheaper than normal (in terms of reagents) and with much greater chance of success. The spellweavers did this on purpose knowing the spells were ultimately weaker than ritual magic and that the easier and safer access to magic would likely lead to the destruction of the sarrukh.
Then the spellweavers got burned, only a few survived and those transformed spellweavers that were part of the sarrukh made themselves into part of the weave. Their proteges among the sarrukh did the same thing with the batrachi (transforming themselves into batrachi and repeating the cycle) who in turn did the same to the aearee.
At least that's what I think happened. And it explains how everyone uses the same magic language and same method of casting spells. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 19:03:38
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I've been inclined of late (after rereading George Krashos' article on Jergal) to link the magical alphabet/language and southern magic to variations on the spellweavers code that they used to create the nether scrolls.
Wow... that is so 180ş from where my mind went.
I linked it to sorcery, which I link to 'natural magic' of the universe, like what dragons and elves (of old) used. I think of Vancian magic as 'hack magic' - a cheap substitute for the real thing. What the Ba'etith did was find all these 'cheat codes' and organize them into a system.
And just for Shiggles, I'd also name the head Sarrukh that had that idea Jaq'Vaanse.
Also, I just remember some old etymology lore I created, pertaining to ancient proto-language - the 'universal tongue' spoken before the shattering of the First World...
'Ba' is a prefix for 'fallen' (something that has 'lost its way'). Thus, the Batrachi were the Ba'trachi - those moved away from their more familiar, octopodal forms for something more amphibious. That means the 'trachi' were the original Creator race - something modern sages would not realize. The Baatezu were actually the Ba-a'tezu, with 'Tezu' being the ancient word for Celestial (so it would translate 'Celestials who have become tainted').
So, continuing with my own, old Homebrew language lore, Ba'etith may have been something the other sarrukh named them - those who have 'given up the old ways' for other paths (Vancian Magic, as opposed to Primal/High Magic). so 'etith' might be an old sarrukh term for 'Scholar'.
I also have it where the suffix 'ri' means 'corrupted' (so 'Tanar' would be an old word for elemental), and the suffix 'zt' would mean 'betrayer', with racial connotations (hence Graz'zt and Driz'zt). I have to write these all down again - I have forgotten so much of it (since the fire). I had a ton of stuff pertaining to the original fey tongue (Hamafae is only the written form). Drow is actually far closer to the 'old High-Elven' (Faey) than surface elvish is - it didn't have so many corrupting influences over the millennia. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 18:32:37
I knew 'Gish' wasn't quite the term I was looking for, and was hoping someone wouldn't correct me. I forgot what site I'm on. LOL
The term I was actually looking for was 'gestalt' - able to do the stuff from two different classes.
And while you maintain that there is no connection, in the thing I quoted above there is most certainly a connection between Thay and the Black Flame. I did explain it about, but didn't bother to write the whole scenario; I picture it going something like this...
The Black Flame Magi (actually a type of clerical Sha'ir) were mostly wiped out, and the few remaining fled to Sentaria (pre-Thay Thay, and yes, its my own term, but I really HATE how the designers refer to regions by their national names thousands - sometimes tens of thousands - of years before such places ever existed!) There they kept their traditions alive - just barely - until the arrival of thayd and his followers. Now, southern magic was a combination of arcna & divine (I believe it says so canonically where the mage-priests of the Mulan are discussed). As I've said, I picture a class almost identical to the Sha'ir, but with a 'patron', like how Warlocks work). This may have been an adaption on the part of the early Mulan, who didn't have gods, and even when their gods first showed up, they weren't really 'full gods' like elsewhere on toril. Thus, I am picturing more of a 'patronage' thing, the way arch-stuff work with their cults. Instead of a djen, i am picturing small servitor-spirits, not unlike Cherubs, but it could be anything. gods and psuedo-gods should be able to command a bunch of 'lesser' anything, so you could even pick from some of the old school familiars - Quasit, Imp, homonculous, etc., but could include mephits, Dgen, OD&D's familiars (Aryth, Bogan, Fylgar, Gretch, & Ulzaq), and perhaps even some fey. I was picturing it changinging each time (for the Mage-priests of Mulhorand & Unther), but perhaps we could combine it with familiars for the Black Flame Magi.
However, if they have an elemental patron, then I would think their familiars should have an elemental nature as well; if you didn't want to just copy the Djen from Zakhara, you could use mephits instead.
EDIT:
And in the Thay trilogy, the head of the church of Kossuth did sit on the 'High Council' with the Tharchions and Zulkirs, inferring that he - alone of Thay's religious powers - had equal standing with them. Thay has a LONG history of working closely with Kossuth's priesthood, and loosing this golden opportunity to connect two pieces of extremely similar-sounding lore (that already have connections through Thay) seems to be such a waste, IMO.
Anyway, I never finished my original train-of-thought above (as usual). The idea is that at some point the Black Flame Magi broke into two separate pieces; those who continued to pursue purely arcane magic, and those who 'kept the faith'. I think the mistake in thinking here is to just assume the Thay of today (or rather, of 1e/2e/3e) is the way things would have 'always been' in Thay. For all we know, Kossuth-worship may even be tied to why there are plateaus in Thay now (its been hinted at that they may not have always been there).
What I do find extremely odd is that the 'Black Flame' would have evolved into Red Wizards (the component that would have gone with Arcane Magic over divine). Modern Kossuth worshippers in Thay also wear red - I believe they are the ONLY group other than the Red Wizards allowed to do so (this was even mentioned in the trilogy, but they were supposed to wear a very different shade of red... the head guy did not, and it irked the Zulkirs). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 16:19:17
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
If Tsathoggua is Ramenos, that's a sad way for him to go.
quote:
In that secret cave in the bowels of Voormithadreth . . . abides from eldermost eons the god Tsathoggua. You shall know Tsathoggua by his great girth and his batlike furriness and the look of a sleepy black toad which he has eternally. He will rise not from his place, even in the ravening of hunger, but will wait in divine slothfulness for the sacrifice.
Sounds pretty spot on as a description of Ramenos. |
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