| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mlan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 20:58:55
Does vecna exist in the forgotten realms? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 23:28:47
yeah,, that was him.
course one would wonder how many newer fans actually know that these days |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 06:15:09
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
wasn't Vecna a half fiend before lichdom?
Acererak. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 06:13:32
Naw, you're thinking of his buddy Iuz (just kidding about them being 'buddies' - they HATE each other). |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 01:49:28
wasn't Vecna a half fiend before lichdom? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 00:39:10
Lords of Darkness is Fake News. 
Larloch was born at the very end of the Netheril Empire? Thats where I screwed up - I assumed he was one of the 'big guns' up there with Ioun, Iouluam, and Karsus.
And I actually wasn't doing a 'my lich is better than yours', because I was a GH fan FIRST, and I like Vecna - I was just stating my opinion that Vecna is a very old-fashioned style bad guy (is evil because he likes being evil), whereas Larloch isn't evil at all - he is amoral. I was just trying to figure out a way of connecting them, because we have way too many 'uber-liches' in FR already. If you'd rather, you can always say that Vecna came to the Realms and killed Larloch and took his stuff - it works either way and doesn't really matter at all which way you do it.
But the problem here is I am still thinking of Vecna in the terms I did when I was first introduced to him - as the 'uber lich of the setting', whereas now he's done so much more and his godhood status is all over the place canonically. As that he is somewhat redundant with Myrkul ('Bag-O-Bones' evil god) and Velsharoon. Hmmmm... merging Vecna with Velsharoon might be even better (for homebrew games, not anything canon). Heck, the names even begin with the same letters.  |
| Baltas |
Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 19:29:11
- Markustay
Well, "Lords of Darkness" stated that Larloch is nearly 2000 years old in 1372 DR, suggesting Vecna is at least a bit (centuries) older than Larloch. Does another source, or author (especially Ed) stated otherwise?
[EDIT]
- LordofBones
Oooh, you made my comment unnecersary  |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 19:28:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Vecna born before Larloch? Just nope.
Vecna was a mewling babe when Larloch was already a lich. Vecna is the 'newb' of the 4e pantheon - not even nearly as old as The Raven Queen. Hell, he is barely older (as a deity) than The Dark Three. In fact, someone must have had a real nostalgic fondness for Vecna for him to have even made it into the Core Pantheon - he just doesn't belong there. Plus, he is so old-school tropey he's kind of ridiculous by today's standards. He's like a dumbed-down, evil-for-evil-sake version of Larloch.
According to the Vecna timeline that I found, Vecna was a 'young man just learning magic' in -950 DR (-1747 CY).
...
Oh wow, this actually made my head hurt.
Vecna's divinity isn't in dispute here. Vecna became a god only fairly recently, but he was around as a mortal-turned-lich much longer, then he died or became lich dust or whatever, and then was resurrected because people were so terrified they thought he was still alive.
Notably, we don't actually know Larloch's birthdate. Going by the wiki, Vecna has at least three centuries on him - the postulated birthdate for Larloch is after -628 DR (LoD mentions that Larloch was almost 2000 years old in 1370 DR), while Vecna would have already been three hundred years old around then (-950 DR).
As for the Raven Queen, she muddies the waters even more. Nerull was alive and well in 3.5e, which roughly corresponds up to 1385 DR. He's still alive in 5e, and the Raven Queen's backstory heavily conflicts with Nerull's own motivations and personality. Whoever the god she murdered was, it couldn't have been Nerull. It has his name, but it's plainly not him. Nerull hates life. He hates everyone and everything. He doesn't want to be a king. He wants everything that is, was and will be to rot and wither and die in the most horrible manner possible.
Vecna also has more feats to his name than Larloch. Mention Vecna in the planes, and chances are that everyone will know him. Mention Larloch, and "who?" is probably the answer.
I don't get this whole "my lich is better than your lich" thing. Larloch is specific to the Forgotten Realms, there doesn't need to be a link to each and every minor coincidence (or, in the case of Larloch and Vecna, a coincidence that doesn't even exist). Frankly, calling Vecna out for being 'old school tropey' (whatever the hell that means) ignores that Larloch went on to indulge in a monologue and got his arse punted across Faerun by one of Mystra's numerous power rangers. Vecna actually succeeded; for one awful instant, reality itself nearly bent to his whim.
I like Larloch, but Vecna is practically a household name. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 17:26:24
Vecna born before Larloch? Just nope.
Vecna was a mewling babe when Larloch was already a lich. Vecna is the 'newb' of the 4e pantheon - not even nearly as old as The Raven Queen. Hell, he is barely older (as a deity) than The Dark Three. In fact, someone must have had a real nostalgic fondness for Vecna for him to have even made it into the Core Pantheon - he just doesn't belong there. Plus, he is so old-school tropey he's kind of ridiculous by today's standards. He's like a dumbed-down, evil-for-evil-sake version of Larloch.
According to the Vecna timeline that I found, Vecna was a 'young man just learning magic' in -950 DR (-1747 CY). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 11:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by mlan
I am mainly asking because there is an item called the Tome of the Stilled Tongue which in 3.5 is a relic that requires worship of Vecna. I wanted to make sure he existed in FR since the DM expressly doesn't allow non FR deities.
If you are only after a artefact from different setting than I would go to your GM and ask him about that. Taking the core and binding it to other Faerunian diety like Velsharoon or Myrkul or powerful mortal like Larloch is easier than transplanting the diety to FR. There are some links by properties of the multiverse but you really do not need that. You like a magic book :-)
With usage of portals or plane travel it might be quite easy for Vecna to send one of his artefacts to Toril to gain a handhold in Realms... .-) |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 03:29:00
Larloch must be really good at time-travel, considering that Vecna was born centuries before him. Using the FR calender and mapping it to Greyhawk dates, Vecna was alive in -2527 DR/-1747 CR. Karsus's Folly took place in -339 DR.
Also, portals are under Shaundakul's purview in the Realms. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 21:16:45
Well, as I said, if I had to merge him with anyone it would be Larloch. When I came to Grayhawk, Vecna was just an uber-powerful lich that had attained just enough power to be a demigod.
Larloch, when I first came to FR was an uber-powerful (nigh-untouchable) lich, and we eventually learned he was a former Chosen of Mystryl (making HIM a demigod as well). Both have 'legendary being' status within their settings.
So my very first impression of Larloch when I first started reading about The Realms was, "Oh... he's FR's Vecna!" You are not supposed to fight him... heck, you really aren't even supposed to use him. At least not directly. In both settings, they serve the same purpose. So to me, I have always felt they were a good fit.
Now, looking back with some 30 years of 'FR fanboi' under my belt, i would say the two are completely different, personality-wise, and there is no way to properly mesh their backstories. I came up with 'killed him and took his stuff' scenario for Larloch (turning Larloch into 'The Serpent' from Vecna's backstory), but its not really ideal. Plus, Vecna is now a greater(?) god (or at least was, at one point... not sure anymore) and even tried to attain Overgod status by invading Sigil. Whereas Larloch was never more than a demipower (exarch/Chosen), and he may have even lost that little bit of divine rank. Thus, beyond my initial feelings for the two and my familiarities with both settings (or lack thereof), they are not a good fit, especially in the case of a relic/artifact.
On the other hand, very much like Vecna, Larloch has 'set his sights higher'. Other servants of Mystra were granted godhood, but I don't see Larloch being anyone's towel-boy. I think his desire to control portals might have to do with him becoming a new Aoskar. And THAT being was the last one to have assaulted Sigil (something about Sigil; all these gods-wanting-more go there...) So, despite the differences in personality (Vecna is tropey-evil) and current status, the two seem to have very similar long-range goals. So maybe 'young me' wasn't as naive as I thought. And then there is the fact that Vecna did have some 'secret patron' that hid in the shadows, and the timing would be perfect for Larloch.
Cheers. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 17:14:18
Vecna is within the same multiverse as FR, but does not have a presence within Realmspace. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 16:04:23
Well, yes there are differences between Vecna and Myrkul, but that's because they are still separate characters, but with what I think are more than "superficial" similarities.
Also, the Crown of Horns was recreated with Myrkul's "death" by him, like the Hand and Eye were "created", by Vecna's death to be fair, they also existed before that...as Vecna's body parts )
And both artefacts, were created as we know them them now, with Myrkul's and Vecna's seeming death. Also as I mentioned, Eric L. Boyd did also introduce the Eye of Myrkul.
And while Vecna wasn't a completelly dedicated Necromamcer, he ddid visibly practise necromancy. (I mean, look at him). He also did write the necromantic tome "Ordinary Necromancy":
http://moa.omnimulti.com/Ordinary_Necromancy
Which is stated to be oe o his earliest works...
And created the second Kas the Vampire:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/The_Silver_Mask_of_Kas
An even Tar-Baphoon himself, is a necromancer (both described and in class).
Another character that is thought to be based on Vecna - Nagash from Warhammer, is also a Necromancer. In fact, the creator of Necromanc as we know it.
Nagash even lost his hand, which became an artefact tainted with evil (and used to bring him back).
Nagash was even betrayed by his vampire righ-hand man like Vecna, resulting in his seeming death.
But Nagash, like Myrkul, was from a noble birth - in fact the brother of the pharaoh.
And recently, Nagash did slay the previous god of Death and Dead, and became the new god of Death and Dead.
Again though, Nagash did create the Crown of Sorcery, and infused some of his spirit to it, allowing it to take over people with not strong enough will...which is quite similar to the Crown of Horns.
So maybe Nagash was inspired by both Myrkul and Vecna? Although Myrkul, untill Mask of the Betrayer, was a bit obscure to people not knowing well Forgotten Realms, and Vecna was and is faaar better known. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 13:17:51
quote:
Originally posted by mlan
I am mainly asking because there is an item called the Tome of the Stilled Tongue which in 3.5 is a relic that requires worship of Vecna. I wanted to make sure he existed in FR since the DM expressly doesn't allow non FR deities.
I've been trying to convert those relics to Realms-worthy artifacts and from what research I've done, I would say substitute Shar or (otherwise) Cyric for Vecna. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 03:38:31
That's why I said 'closest analogue'. Both are deities of secrets and forbidden knowledge, and that's about it.
Myrkul and Vecna are only superficially similar. Myrkul was royalty, Vecna was born to a slave; Myrkul was a necromancer, Vecna was probably a binder (assuming the Serpent is really a vestige, and it ties with his mother being a "witch") that became a wizard (not a necromancer - his avatar is a pure wizard); Vecna's Hand and Eye were created when he "died" as a normal lich while the Crown of Horns was corrupted by Myrkul when he was still a god and now serves as the receptacle for his soul. Even their methods of ascension differ; Myrkul sought out divinity, Vecna gained it because everyone still believed in the terror of his return after his death.
Vecna's closest analogue in any setting isn't from core D&D, actually - he isnpired Tar-Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, of Golarion. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 03:23:41
-LordofBones
Well, yes Shar and Vecna do share the portfolio of secrets, but the problem is, they share almost nothing aside from that.
Shar is a prehistoric entity, that from what we know, was never human or mortal. She doesn't care for power or knowlege (at least not in the first place - she wants to aquire those to attain her primary goal).
Shar's goals, are ultimatelly, nihilistic - she wants to return the uiverse in which Toril is, and even the multiverse, to the state of darkness, or rather shadow it originally was.
It was stated by several people, like Ed and Krash. 3E, and up to level 4E might make seem Shar as a power hungryvillain, but that due to some writters, not getting her.
Shar is more like Tharizdun, in many ways, rather than Vecna...
- George Krashos
Well, I partly agree. Only we have such a villain allready in the setting - Myrkul. As I pointed out, Eric L. Boyd himself noticed the similarities betweeen the two.
I mean, both are from ancient, subjucated nations/nationalities (Flan and Murghom/Muhjuri, although it's possible Myrkul was at least partly Mulan), both became powerfull necromancers, both have similary working, cursed artefacts, tied to their essence (Crown of Thorns, and Vecna's Hand and Eye) (all three artefacts, are connected to "deaths" of both). Both became gods.
Larloch could be used alternatelly, as he is also quite similar, and both characters had a reverence of "Gods" of Magic (Mystryl, Mystra and the Serpent), and both made a bid for cosmic power (Vecna in "Die Vecna Die!", Larloch during the resurrection of Mystra).
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 03:01:08
No... just please no... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 02:57:11
Why not create a specific Vecna-like big bad for the Realms and give it an FR backstory and reason for being there? Way better than trying to contort the setting and shoehorn in a GH entity that powerful.
-- George Krashos |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 02:34:04
That depends on who you ask.
5e's planar cosmology is a wreck, as is 4e's, so I'm not touching on those. In 2e and 3.5e canon, Vecna is a single-sphere deity that's only worshipped in Greyspace (Oerth). Markustay's referencing the abduction of Waukeen, which happened in an edition where almost all the deities of all the settings lived in the planes, so crossover events weren't uncommon.
4e and 5e seem to have a pathological fear of letting setting-specific events and beings be setting-specific events and beings, which is how you get the current mess of historical events.
Anyway, Vecna is only worshipped in Oerth and does not exist in the Realms, as far as 3.5e is concerned. He lives in the Prime Material Plane of Oerth itself, in a hidden, invisible realm. The closest Realms analogue would be Shar. Velsharoon has nothing to do with him, other than both being lich-gods; Velsharoon's specific concerns are necromancy, undeath and lichdom; Vecna's the god of secrets. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 02:08:26
There are rules among the gods of different crystal spheres, as mentioned in the FR novel Tymora's Luck.
From the gist of it, gods can't "legally" interfere with what goes on in other crystal spheres (unless they have a legitimate foothold of faithful?). At the very least the FR gods and the Greyhawk gods have an understanding and are obligated to keep to that, though some of them can certainly try to bend or break the rules.
Vecna isn't allowed to influence Realmspace unless he fulfills the requirements (at least not directly). His non-deity servants on the other hand may be a different story.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 00:50:42
Also, the recent adventures involving Acererak make Vecna 'more canon', because Acererak was also a follower of Vecna at one point (and if Acererak has been ported-over, then so, too, has his history).
And then there is Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, which is universal D&D canon, including the Realms, and he and Vecna are old 'chums' LOL
I mean, we literally have a new canon book about some guy's foes, and one of his foes is Vecna (whether he appears in that book or not... but he really should).
We also inherited a LOT of D&D's 'prehistory' from GH, via Miska and the Queen of Chaos (and Wind Dukes, etc..), thanks to 4e making all of that standardized D&D canon. Not directly related to Vecna, but it seems so much of GH history has now become part of our history I don't really think you can still keep parts of them separate. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 23:37:12
quote:
Originally posted by mlan
I am mainly asking because there is an item called the Tome of the Stilled Tongue which in 3.5 is a relic that requires worship of Vecna. I wanted to make sure he existed in FR since the DM expressly doesn't allow non FR deities.
Not to be that person again, but it's up to your DM then. Feel free to show him my post and show him this link which details the connection between B1 and Undermountain (the text in the first printing of B1 suggests placing it in Greyhawk which is how I decided it was located in Greyhawk). In my Realms there almost definitely has been cults of Vecna around Waterdeep (and possibly beyond) that were in vogue for a short time. It's unlikely the cult has continued, but historically speaking there have been cults of Vecna and all that has to happen is for someone to find the religious texts of one of these cults and decide to reestablish the worship of this "long forgotten deity" and you'll have a cult of Vecna pop up again.
But that's just in my realms. Your DM almost certainly won't allow that sort of extrapolation, no matter how well thought out. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 23:31:50
For my head canon the Forgotten Realms has at least one somewhat easy to access permanent open portal to Greyhawk and it's how spells like Bigby's Grasping Hand were brought over to Faerun: In Undermountain there is a section of map that is identical to the map from B1. In Search of the Unknown. In my cosmology In Search of the Unknown is located on Greyhawk. As such Waterdeep is where the named spells have historically originated and then they've slowly worked their way across the Realms.
So if you want to have Vecna turn up in Faerun, it's pretty easy in my world at least. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 23:11:32
To be clear, the situation is like Markustay explained - Vecna exist in a different Crystal Sphere (world) - he is connected through the multiverse, but doesn't really have a history with the Realms.
Myrkul, could be a good substitute, as he is a deity in Forgotten Realms, with origins in Faerun, and many times interracting with it. Myrkul even has even an artefacts to the Eye and Hand of Vecna - the Crown of Horns:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Crown_of_Horns
Because of this, Eric L. Boyd substituted Myrkyl for Vecna, when he was localysing several adventures to Forgotten Realms, and even outside of that, introduced the "Eye of Myrkul" in "Forgotten Realms: Mere of Dead Men: Eye of Myrkul" in Dungeon #73. |
| mlan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 22:59:24
I am mainly asking because there is an item called the Tome of the Stilled Tongue which in 3.5 is a relic that requires worship of Vecna. I wanted to make sure he existed in FR since the DM expressly doesn't allow non FR deities. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 22:44:20
Yes and no. It depends upon how you look at it.
As of right now, canonically, I would have to say yes, because all the separate 'canons' for each setting got rolled into one universal 'D&D canon' as of 4e/5e.
However, I can't see how Vecna wasn't FR canon previously. Vecna is Iuz's archenemy. Iuz is the son of Graz'zt. Graz'zt kidnapped a Faerūnian deity - Waukeen. Thus, Wuakeen was captured by Vecna's enemy's dad. thats as close to canon as you can get without him being official canon.
Unfortunately, elsewhere, we have some 'canon' (it might be psuedo-canon, relating to a Dragon magazine conversion) that when you are using the adventure, you should convert the 'Hand & Eye of Vecna' to the Hand & Eye of Velsharoon. I personally don't agree with that conversion hypothesis - Vecna's body-parts are D&D canon - they are ARTIFACTS, and thus should be available in any setting. In fact, any being associated with artifacts should be D&D canon no matter what, in any edition, because artifacts were always considered 'universal'.
As to whether he has ever 'mucked about' in or with the Realms - not as far as we know. But we thought the same things about Kyuss and Acererak, who are also from GH (and thus loosely affiliated with Vecna), and both of them have now become FR canon. Except for the Hand & Eye thing - and his brief stay in Ravenloft - I would say it would almost seem the most efficient thing to do would be to merge Vecna with Larloch (just say they've always been the same guy, and Larloch was just known as 'Vecna' over in Grayspace). And the reason for that would be that I don't think those two could stand being in the same setting together - they are of the same level of power and very much alike.
Of course, both GH and FR fans would cry if they made that official. I have a whole box of Kleenex is anyone needs one. |
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