| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 13:27:11
So, one of the big things going on in the Dead in Thay module is that basically Szass Tam is grabbing up chosen and then trying to draw the power out of them during the events leading to the Sundering. It should be noted that Erin Evans novel for the Sundering before the returned to Cormyr and then Tymanther also involved this. Specifically Tam was trying to figure out how to draw this energy into his phylactery to attain godhood (man did that death moon orb curse affect him or what...).
So, why do I bring this up? Remember Mulhorand? People are returned and they're calling themselves by the name of the deities. So, we're getting the idea that these maybe aren't full blown manifestations in power, but they aren't just "Chosen" either. So, going back to the idea of the ToT... are these "weakened" avatars (as in beings that are forced to share the body of a mortal)? If so, I'm seeing a very good possibility of a resurgence of hostilities between Thay and Mulhorand (maybe openly, maybe clandestinely).
From Sword Coast Adventurer's guide
Mulhorand. Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed. Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari. Aided by the
mighty wizard Nezram, known as the World-Walker, the Mulhorandi overthrew the rulers of High Imaskar, who fled into the Plains of Purple Dust or to extra planar safeholds.
When the upheaval ended and the Chosen began to disappear, the gods of Mulhorand remained to rule their people, focusing their attention on defending their restored homeland to keep the war in Unther and Tymanther from spilling over its borders . For the first time in centuries, the people in Mulhorand are free, with the gods declaring that slavery shall no longer be practiced among the Mulan since their return.
From Dead in Thay
[i]Synopsis
Although the adventure begins in the North, most of it takes place in the Doomvault, one of the deadliest dungeons in Thay and all Faerûn. Kazit Gul, a crazed demilich, built the Doomvault to siphon the souls of those who perished within. Szass Tam and his followers enslaved Gul and repurposed the Doomvault as a monstrous menagerie and arcane laboratory.
Their incursion into the Bloodgate Nexus brings the player characters into the plots of the Thayan Resurrection, rebel Red Wizards opposed to Szass Tam’s rule. One of those rebels is a conjurer in control of the Bloodgate portal network. She uses the failing Bloodgate to draw the adventurers across the world to the Doomvault.
For the rebels to succeed and Thay’s threat to the Sword Coast to be ended, Szass Tam’s power must be broken. The characters make a concerted assault on the Doomvault. Their overall goal is the Phylactery Vault of Kazit Gul, which holds the phylacteries of Szass Tam’s elite lich servants. By destroying this vault, the adventurers
can deliver a deathblow to Szass Tam’s power.
As the assault unfolds, the adventurers discover that Szass Tam’s overall plot connects to the Sundering. The gods have divested much of their power into the Chosen, mortals who can help shape the Realms to match the will of their divine benefactors. Szass Tam and his followers have reshaped the Doomvault’s magic, creating laboratories in which the divine power of the Chosen can be extracted and funneled into the lich lord’s phylactery to fuel his pursuit of godhood.[i] |
| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 07:16:34
There's a 24th level human necromancer with a lair near the Battle of Bones, so Nezram's not the top non-lich. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 06:46:19
They say the incarnations have at least the power of a demigod and they would like grow more powerful as time went on, just like Gilgamesh got more powerful once he had a chance to gain power from his worshippers.
.
I think if Thay was foolish enough to try and draw the attacks of the Mulhorandi Gods, it would be a disaster for Thay.
Thay has itself own issues, the internal struggles have weakened it somewhat, many of it's best wizards we're driven out or killed with Tam's grab for power, plus Mulhorand has Nezram the World Walker, likely the most powerful none lich or deity Archmage in the realms now. Elminister isn't bit as powerful as he used to be, not even close. I don't even think he considers himself an Archmage anymore, just a powerful Wizards, with some special abilities.
In fact I think between Thay and the Old Kingdoms, they likely have the most powerful magic users in the realms, Nezram, Szass Tam and the other Zulkirs, the Emperoress and her Imaskari Wizards, Dragons, Gilgamesh, The Mulhorand Pantheon, Tchazzar, ect... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 00:44:21
Markustay,
You have a very beautiful mind sometimes. I like where you're going there. I would like to put a slightly different spin on it. less on Mellifleur. More on Larloch and his ties to the goddess of magic (after all, he may have been a chosen of Mystryl.... and Leira may have been an ascended chosen from long ago as well... possibly predating Larloch even). By that, I mean the other day I was proposing that Leira had created the book of Fastrin the Delver (the one that started Tam down the road of rebellion in 1375 DR), and that she setup Tam for his folly. Then I was proposing that she was going to usurp the power for another purpose. I even went so far as to say that Leira possibly WAS the book of Fastrin the Delver, much as I've said I believe she WAS the Cyrinishad.
I've often felt that Velsharoon had some kind of involvement with Larloch as well. In fact, I've wondered if Larloch didn't possibly introduce Velsharoon to Mellifleur's ritual PRIOR to the Time of Troubles, possibly at the bequest of Mystra I. Also, Larloch.... I can see him and Leira and Mask as being "friendly" with each other. So, what if Larloch gave Tam the death moon orb with the intention that Leira would introduce "herself" to him as the book of Fastrin the Delver. They know the curse on the death moon orb will convince him to try the ritual, which is screwed up but draws in a ton of energy...... destructive, almost necromantic energy...... necromantic energy that if say fed to a god of necromancy might be able to be used to "resurrect" a goddess' spirit from the "underworld"... even against the will of a goddess of death/the underworld..... and wasn't it right around the time that that ritual failed that we found a certain goddess in a bear.... and the wheels of the sundering were set in motion.
If you can't tell, I really like the idea that all kinds of "evil" gods (Leira, Mask, Velsharoon, Talos, maybe Gargauth) were working together with good/neutral gods (Savras, Deneir, the red knight, Karsus, Lathander, Selune, Finder, Kereska the Wonderbringer, possibly even Helm, Tyr, and Nobanion) to restore Mystra. Why? None of them want Shar to have that much power. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 20:31:24
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I was a bit non-plussed when I saw a "crazed demilich" created out of nowhere and serving Tam.... and the fact that he apparently has tons of liches serving him and has their phylacteries in a shared vault.... Also, a plotline this advanced being for level 6-8 characters made we go "why?"....
The idea behind him trying to draw power out of beings though... the idea of taking someone's divine spark. The idea of people experimenting on other people to try and figure out what that spark is. Not against that.
Well I have to admit the setup is quite poor. Building a massive monster menagerie and arcane laboratory then kidnapping people from all over faerun. Its a pale knock off of Undermountain.
Not just Undermountain - you have to look squarely at Halaster's 'frenemy' Larloch, because its all his fault.
Somehow gaining control over tons of other liches and undead, including ones that theoretically should be more powerful than you? Who does exactly THAT? Larloch - he has armies of liches they way kings have armies of peons. This means Larloch has discovered something - some 'deep secret' regarding the nature of magic and necromancy. And we KNOW Szass Tam made sort of 'trade deal' with Larloch. The story of that s the opening lead-in to the Netheril box stuff.
What we REALLY need to be asking ourselves is why would Larloch trade his most valuable secret to someone like Tam? And why even keep his end of the bargain, for that matter? He had Tam dead-to-rights there - he could have just taken what he wanted (whatever uber-McGffin we imagine that to be). Thus, we must break-down the logic.
A) Tam found something - or more likely, several somethings - that Larloch desperately wanted. We can guess at what those were, especially considering Larloch's old Enclave fell fairly close to Thay.
B) Tam had something Larloch wanted, so it must have been pretty awesome, and that means Tam must have wanted something else even more. The two major things Larloch is know for (magically) is his ability to control legions of powerful undead, and an interest in portals/gates (which isn't as well known). From what we've deduced from the Orcgate thread, Thayans obviously don't need any help in that dept. They are sitting on what used to be part of the mightiest 'teleportation magic' empire that ever existed, and they are the direct descendants of the survivors from there (the Mulan who fled the OE). From this we can deduce that Tam may have had an Imaskari artifact Larloch desperately wanted (or not - the actual item{s} doesn't really matter).
c) Soon after their meeting Szass Tam's power increases exponentially, and he starts to become a lich on-par with Larloch himself. This happened way too quickly for it to have been 'normal'. The stuff that happened in the novels - like him summoning Bane - is irrelevant. All of that was a byproduct of things already set in motion.
D) Why would Larloch create someone who could pose a potential threat to him? Arguably, Tam is even 'more evil' than Larloch (Larloch seems to want to just be left alone), which makes him a bigger threat on a global scale. The only possible answer to this - for a guy who is obviously as super-intelligent as Larloch is - is that it didn't matter. That whatever Larlcoh gave him, he already had a counter to it. Maybe not an item, but perhaps a deeper plan of his own.
So there you have it. Szass Tam is convinced he got the better of Larloch (there's that 'hubris' again), but that may or may not be the case. I personally don't think it is, but that is just my opinion. Maybe Tam had access to something else Larloch didn't know about, and thus, larloch's plan (whatever that may have been), has gone askew. Or, conversely, Larloch's plan is 'right on target'. But since neither of them saw the Spellplague coming (and even thats arguable), I think both of them had their plans go awry. We Know Tam thought those Dread Rings were going to work. So now we have to ask ourselves, did Larloch know Tam was going to do that? And did he want them to work, or did he foresee them failing?
Just for fun...
Personally, I like to think Larloch foresaw it all, and Tam had no idea how much smarter Larloch was. That larloch's plan was to steal the energy garnered by the Dread Rings for himself... but neither counted on the plan being disrupted, so both were disappointed (to put it mildly).
And to take this a step further, perhaps this is how Mellifleur stole the power he has. Maybe Mellifleur traded Larloch some secrets (how to steal 'Godhood' out from under someone), and when Larloch was about to do so, it all came crashing down. If we say this is the case (just having fun here now), then perhaps Bane and Mellifleur also came to some side-arrangement. If Bane WAS the power behind Mellifleur, Mellifleur may have wanted to appease him finally, and offered him something - like all that 'Godhood power' Szass Tam would eventually release. That means Mellifleur most-likely made sure Tam got the ritual that would summon bane, which was all part of HIS plan. Bane acted-out his part, and gave Szass Tam the power he needed to overcome the spellplague. Everyone 'had a plan'.
But Mellifleur had no intention of letting it all go down that way, and somehow, he manipulated 'the heroes' into being at the right place at the right time. If any of the other players in this scenario ever finds out his Machiavellian machinations behind the scenes, he is going to have a LOT of enemies on him. However, he is counting on the hubris of those involved not to ever expect someone out-smarted them all. 
As an aside... why is Mellifleur suddenly so important in the Realms (in this theory of mine)? Well, Velsharoon appeared on the scene right around the time Larloch and Szass Tam made their trade, and it would have been right after that that Larloch would have had to 'make good' on whatever deals he was making with Mellifleur. We now know Talos was really Gruumsh all along, so why would Gruumsh sponsor a human to be a god of undeath (unless Orcus was trying to 'horn in on his turf', but that's a whole separate theory)? Because it wasn't Talos at all - Mellifleur - with Larlochs help - preserved the essence of Velsharoon and made it into an aspect of Mellifleur... a Faerûnian aspect.
Mellifleur may have even promised help to Gruumsh at some future time (once again, against Orcus?) if he would 'take the blame' for Velsharoon, under his own Talos aspect.
"Everyone lies, and Gods lie worst of all." - Ed Greenwood
There are no 'inconsistencies', just better stories, with 'wheels within wheels'.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:43:27
Well I have to admit the setup is quite poor. Building a massive monster menagerie and arcane laboratory then kidnapping people from all over faerun. Its a pale knock off of Undermountain.
That being said its got some stuff in it that can be used. Ignoring 5e events (just because). We have a some guy who built something that could be used to steal divine power and it is in a region near to Imaskar and near a nation full of semi divine beings.
So I'm thinking what if Kazit Gul was a survivor of Imaskar who wanted revenge. So he builds something akin to the planar barrier but instead of blocking out divine power it traps it inside it.
All Gul needs then is for some semi divine beings (real divine beings wont work unless they send and avatar and that is far too dangerous (instantaneous death type dangerous even for a lich). So he helps establish Thay and the Tams are his minions (the Zulkirs were never the ultimate power in Thay - they always had powerful patrons who get them the job).
The Tams job were to bungle invasions of Mulhorand and provoke that kingdom into reprisals (lead by incarnations). THe divine incarnations would then be trapped and forced to expend their divine energy battling the creatures in the Doomvault which would then be absorbed by this battery. Ultimately Kazit Gul would use the energy to super power himself but as usual it went wrong and burned his physical form to nothing but a skull.
We already have evidence of a divine incarnation dying in Thay (it was in a web article).
At least that's how I'm going to steal this and turn it into something more palatable (to me) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:14:15
Yeah, I was a bit non-plussed when I saw a "crazed demilich" created out of nowhere and serving Tam.... and the fact that he apparently has tons of liches serving him and has their phylacteries in a shared vault.... Also, a plotline this advanced being for level 6-8 characters made we go "why?"....
The idea behind him trying to draw power out of beings though... the idea of taking someone's divine spark. The idea of people experimenting on other people to try and figure out what that spark is. Not against that. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 14:28:52
I cannot believe someone was paid to write that crap. |
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