| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 18:59:42
So, I know the Orcgate Wars were from -1,076 DR to -1,069 DR...
BUT, the Orcgate itself was open from -1,081 DR until...
I can't find information on when the gate was closed...or even if it was.
My powers of "search" in the documents I have access to are not giving me the answer on this.
The Orcgate Wars were being fought for around 7 years...that is a long time to be fighting a war. Were the orcs reinforcing themselves for some part of this before the gates were closed? They didn't retreat back through the portal; so why not?
Were they simply living off the land because they had no line of retreat or supply?
Was the portal only one way FROM the Orc World?
If Thayd opened the portal in -1,081 DR and "nobody knew about it" then where exactly was it that the orcs first attacked?
If nobody knew about it...how the hell is it written about?
I could have sworn I found a timeline a while back (years ago?) that laid out the War in more detail; but now I can't seem to find any information on it at all.
Sorry for the disconnected rambling; but any help would be appreciated.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:30:25
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The stupidity of the Red Wizards lies in the fact they keep trying in very basic ways ("we lost against The Simbul again, we need more zombies!" ...).
<snip>
Rashemen is the big mistery here, even if we know nothing about the magic of the land I would assume that people so bent on conquering a place and into magical research would (duh!) do some research as to why they can't do some things just next door.
It's like writing and trying to compile the exact same script over and over (substituting the variable "undeads" with "gnolls" or "orcs" is irrelevant) and failing each time and not even trying to look at the reasons while you're failing. You just wait some time and compile the script again and it should work because ...?
This is clearly a stupid thing to do (not "unwise" or "not sensible", it's stupid) and yet they do it all the time.
I get what you're saying, but not all of the red wizards are attempting to obtain power via this blunt means. One of the things I've seen people decrying around here is how horrible the enclaves or "Thaymarts" were. However, if you look at it, they were being given tracts of land that were sovereign soil all around the world. They were also apparently making a lot of money at it. In fact, in my personal take on this, the red wizards were giving away magical trinkets and accepting loads of "cheap" resources in return (one of the big ones in my view was timber, but also things like simple construction materials, or even raw ores for smelting, etc...). I'm also betting that these same enclaves were secretly working with many locals to get rid of their "trash" humanoids in the region (as in local adventurers might round up kobolds, goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.... that no one will miss and sell them to the enclaves maybe out in the countryside... and the red wizards would secretly transport them back to their enclaves to send as slaves). In fact, in my viewpoint, it was these enclaves that allowed many red wizards and non-red wizards survive despite a personal civil war that would have destroyed other civilizations. Of course, in my homebrew, a lot of these construction resources (both materials and slaves) were being clandestinely sent up to Fort Flame/Balduran Bay in the years leading up to the spellplague (and this enclave ended up with a LOT of skeletal undead guardians as a result.... with new slaves eating the flesh from the bodies of fallen slaves that came before...).
There were other instances where they were attempting to change their enemies via trade, such as shoring up those resisting Gilgeam's rule in Messemprar (which granted, they eventually also put an enclave there).
However, Samas Kul and his enclaves weren't the only ones doing things the right way. Lauzoril had several entries in realmslore where he had servants who were trying to conquer via surreptitious means without committing numerous Thayan resources. I'd bet Mythrell'aa was doing similar (in my homebrew she was).
So, it was the Szass Tam, Zulkir Maligor of transmutation, and the unnamed pre-Aznar Thrul and pre-Sabass of Thay Zulkirs of evocation and conjuration that were doing things that were openly aggressive in the 1350's & 1360's. So, that meant four non-wise Zulkirs bent on aggression (necro, conj, evoc, trans), two working slowly/carefully (Lauzoril/enchantment and Mythrell'aa/illusion), another who was an imperialist ally of Lauzoril (Yaphyll Sirtula/divination) but who switched sides seemingly to save her own neck to Tam. The final Zulkir wasn't interested in expansion, she was just enjoying life and sybaritic excesses (Lallara Mediocros/abjuration), and seemingly allied with Tam just to not have to deal with internal assassination attempts after the death moon orb seemingly started to affect him.
On the Rashemen piece... it might be very hard to study Rashemen and test things without being able to enter there.... and the spirits of Rashemen make it very hard to enter Rashemen and the witches not knowing about it. Essentially, they have spies EVERYWHERE.
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| Demzer |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 13:43:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First off, I obviously love the red wizards.... however, let's not confuse INTELLIGENCE with WISDOM.
I know perfectly well the difference between the two, it doesn't explain why all evil wizards do the exact same errors (over and over) while all the good ones are exempt. Also the degree to which they f**k things up everytime would mean that every evil wizard is not just "not wise" but has to have below average wisdom.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the power of the former has yet to be detailed in any significant way - you'll note that Rashemen keeps defeating Thayan invasions and never launches offensives into Thayan territory. That tells you something about the power of the magic inherent in the very soil and air of Rashemen. As for Aglarond, it has some great natural defences and the direct aid of Mystra's agents (see the Shadowstaves entry in "Secrets of the Magister" and my vignette in GHotR for 1365 DR at p.148) as well as elven wards and a decayed mythal in the Yuirwood to tap into.
On Aglarond I definitely agree, even without resortigng to less known or apparent reasons, the presence of The Simbul and the help she can bring in even if "beaten" (I like to think there had to be a couple of times in history when The Simbul really struggled and was on the verge or defeat just to be helped/rescued by her Sisters, Khelben, Elminster, the Magister, the Nameless/Invisible Chosen and every other kind of agent of Mystra and/or Azuth) is enough of a deterrent to avoid ever trying overt conquest again. But this should leave them other "minor" and more subtle ways to try and get into Aglarond and weaken it.
The stupidity of the Red Wizards lies in the fact they keep trying in very basic ways ("we lost against The Simbul again, we need more zombies!" ...).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In simple terms, against Rashemen and Aglarond specifically, Thayan spells don't work too well.
Rashemen is the big mistery here, even if we know nothing about the magic of the land I would assume that people so bent on conquering a place and into magical research would (duh!) do some research as to why they can't do some things just next door.
It's like writing and trying to compile the exact same script over and over (substituting the variable "undeads" with "gnolls" or "orcs" is irrelevant) and failing each time and not even trying to look at the reasons while you're failing. You just wait some time and compile the script again and it should work because ...?
This is clearly a stupid thing to do (not "unwise" or "not sensible", it's stupid) and yet they do it all the time. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 02:01:29
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pound for pound, all things being even, 'evil' should ALWAYS trump 'good'.
Why? Because of the lack of a moral compass - in an altercation, having morals is a disadvantage.
...
Organizations like the Red Wizards and the Zhents don't rise to the positions they are in just to make a bunch of asinine mistakes. That makes no sense. If Thay has the ability to do this - to annihilate 50 cities whenever they wanted - i just don't see how Aglarond has ever beaten them, or Rashemen for that matter.
...
Unless someone here can explain to me how the Simbul is more powerful than Bane? 
"Evil" attacks itself just as readily as it attacks "Good". Pre-Spellplague Thay is dysfunctional because no one trusts anyone, they can't work together for any concerted period of time, and have differing agendas and goals. As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the power of the former has yet to be detailed in any significant way - you'll note that Rashemen keeps defeating Thayan invasions and never launches offensives into Thayan territory. That tells you something about the power of the magic inherent in the very soil and air of Rashemen. As for Aglarond, it has some great natural defences and the direct aid of Mystra's agents (see the Shadowstaves entry in "Secrets of the Magister" and my vignette in GHotR for 1365 DR at p.148) as well as elven wards and a decayed mythal in the Yuirwood to tap into. In simple terms, against Rashemen and Aglarond specifically, Thayan spells don't work too well.
The Simbul is more powerful than Bane when the latter is spell-constrained in a summoning circle.
-- George Krashos |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:59:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Pound for pound, all things being even, 'evil' should ALWAYS trump 'good'.
Why? Because of the lack of a moral compass - in an altercation, having morals is a disadvantage.
...
Organizations like the Red Wizards and the Zhents don't rise to the positions they are in just to make a bunch of asinine mistakes. That makes no sense. If Thay has the ability to do this - to annihilate 50 cities whenever they wanted - i just don't see how Aglarond has ever beaten them, or Rashemen for that matter.
...
Unless someone here can explain to me how the Simbul is more powerful than Bane?
"Evil" attacks itself just as readily as it attacks "Good". Pre-Spellplague Thay is dysfunctional because no one trusts anyone, they can't work together for any concerted period of time, and have differing agendas and goals. As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the power of the former has yet to be detailed in any significant way - you'll note that Rashemen keeps defeating Thayan invasions and never launches offensives into Thayan territory. That tells you something about the power of the magic inherent in the very soil and air of Rashemen. As for Aglarond, it has some great natural defences and the direct aid of Mystra's agents (see the Shadowstaves entry in "Secrets of the Magister" and my vignette in GHotR for 1365 DR at p.148) as well as elven wards and a decayed mythal in the Yuirwood to tap into. In simple terms, against Rashemen and Aglarond specifically, Thayan spells don't work too well.
The Simbul IS more powerful than Bane when the latter is spell-constrained in a summoning circle.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:38:06
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
Then they had that other artifact that acted like a massive spell pool but that broke too.
Their nuke is being an organization of wizards that runs a country.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And the red wizards are believed stupid for the same reason that countries are believed stupid. They do things that counter themselves and their own actioms and they do it for the same reason as america has just run out of money to pay its own government. Inside the red wizards there are many competing factions that will do anything (including hinder themselves) to weaken their opposing factions.
Thay creates a huge army and wastes it. Well that was probably one faction plotting against the other and changing generals or even attacking the army that the other faction made.
Its all just about greedy short sighted people doing unimaginably stupid things just to get petty revenge. A lot like real life
Except that they wouldn't be able to cast spells if that was the case, so they wouldn't be Red "Wizards" to begin with.
I'm sick and tired of people playing high-intelligence characters like idiots the same way I'm sick and tired of wizards doing idiotic things just because they're evil.
Being good doesn't make people smart, being evil doesn't make people stupid.
Yet evil wizards (Thayan, Zhents, random cabalists, etc...) are consistently more idiotic than your run of the mill Cormyrean War Wizard or Harper Wizard or member of the Watchful Order of Magists ad Protectors with no other reason than artistic choice. That's all good in the novels but has no bearing on my Realms.
But this is not getting us anywhere because is something I strongly feel about and I don't think is useful to start this kind of debate here, sorry.
So, just to get back kind of on topic after my rant, assuming that the "Orcgates" operation was conducted while the Red Wizards (the canonical, published ones) were acting as a collective force with the goal of freeing Thay, I see no problem in them using all kinds of Teleportation Circles, Gates (the spell not the fixed ones), altered summonings (just like regular "Summon Monster ..." but picking specific kind of creatures from specific places) and other ways all pumped with circle magic to do something as big as that.
There is a reason people fear organized groups of spellcasters (be they wizards, socrcerers, clerics or whatever), they can really ruin your day, I just wish it was like that consistently across the alignment range. Good guys/gals can do impressive things with magic, bad guys/gals should be able to do the same.
First off, I obviously love the red wizards.... however, let's not confuse INTELLIGENCE with WISDOM. I work in IT and a I know many intelligent people (daresay, I believe I'm one of them). However, the more intelligent people that I've seen are about as WISE as a box of rocks. They're too caught up in the intricacies of how to make X convert to Y and put it into a loop that produces Z to realize that.... they're girlfriend's cheating on them with their best friend, and she's stealing money (and that's just an example mind you). Even worse, when they find out, they justify things in their head rather than deal with the problem.
The red wizards are a bit short sighted because they are so hyper focused on their research. They're a burning desire to learn the next mystery of magic. They just need someone else to manage all the other stuff for them... but lost the hubris and learn to listen to those people as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know, the one thing I don't like about all of this is that on the one hand, Portals/Gates are supposed to be really hard to create, and very important (logistically) when one is found, and on the other hand, we get people creating whole batches of them, willy-nilly, all over the lace.
If teleportation magic is really this easy (and you can move around numbers of beings on that scale), then why isn't everyone doing it, all the time? It just doesn't make sense, IMO.
EDIT:
We can't even blame it on Netheril's fall (and magic changing), because its too recent. I'm really not feeling at ease with that lore, as-is. Its just seems very broken to me. Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!)
Well I think that's largely down to misconception.
Magic isn't easy or cost free. In fact it should be darned expensive (and in my game it is - each spell costs 1sp per spell level to cast and your average commoner makes less than 10sp in a year and merchants earn less than 1-10gp in a year and nobles earn less than 100gp in a year and kings earn less than 1000gp in a year. And they all have to use up half in costs. I kept magic item creation costs the same so they are prohibitively expensive to make - you don't make a magic item unless you are commissioned to by someone rich although acquiring all the reagents through adventurers can reduce the cost to almost nothing but that would take years. You certainly can't sell a magic item in a shop they just aren't that common.
So casting a magic spell is expensive especially teleport which is level 5-7 I think (5sp to cast on top of any other unique reagents required).
I reckon the other misconception is that of portals and gates. You can create a portal with a spell or two and it will last an amount of time depending upon the distance (the further the distance the shorter it lasts and the more errors that occur if its used). To make it two way you have to travel to the other end and cast the same spell the other way. This is purely a magic force and is essentially invisible. Wizards can learn how to cast this spell for themselves - its not super advanced magic.
Elves use this all the time and they create lots of short distance portals (100 miles) to allow them to jump all over the place (hence the portal networks). They make them permanent to last longer but even that doesn't last forever.
The gates of Imaskar however are great big stargate like structures made of rare metals and inscribed with batrachi style runes and infused with tons of magic like a gigantic teleportation artefact (which they are). These cost millions to make but they allow risk free teleportation (two way) to any other stargate terminus over any distance. Or they can be used to create a portal just as the spell does to any other destination (but of course its only one way).
The portal magic is relatively easy to access and less expensive in the short term of history. THe gates are the rare and expensive magic - that's what the twisted rune wanted when they kidnapped Halaster. Its what the batrachi and sarrukh used too. The gates are hellishly expensive in the short term but over the history of a nation they become cheap.
At least that's how I'm playing it.
I like this analogy for different types of gates/portals. One of the things I should probably "introduce" is that the portals between my remote tharchs should start becoming unstable now that a century has passed. Maybe in fact they were so new that they survived the spellplague, but a lot of them popped during the Sundering and just quit working. Thus, I end up with localized Tharchs who work with each other a lot (i.e. Esh Alakar & Balduran Bay OR Lopango & the two in Katashaka OR Peleveran & Wizard's Reach). It would give a lot more power to Mythrell'aa and her spelljammers as a central point that people use to traverse between tharchs. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 19:39:43
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
"They're so ebil they are stupid" is something I never accepted.
Code of Ettins! 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
They don't need a nuke if they have cluster bombs and uncontested delivery.
Consider possibility: a wizard repeatedly casts spells like fire trap or spelltouch (safe 4th-level one, not the abridged version) for a month or three, stockpiles the results, then grabs it, 'ports with a few apprentices into visual range of the target and summons a few flying monsters (or transforms some of the local cattle into darkenbeasts, depending on the school and convenience). For example.
Non-magical conflagration will finish the job.
Of course, once hostile wizards hear about this and decide to look into it, this sort of a trick would become too risky. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 19:03:55
Pound for pound, all things being even, 'evil' should ALWAYS trump 'good'.
Why? Because of the lack of a moral compass - in an altercation, having morals is a disadvantage. Why do 'Supers' keep their identities a secret? Because 'bad guys' can strike at them through their loved ones. Good guys won't ever do that. You know why Batman can never retire? Because he never kills his enemies. If he killed them all every time he defeated them, he'd be sitting on a beach in the Bahamas sipping sweet little umbrella drinks.
In the RW, Good is stupid, and evil is smart. Just look at our current geo-political theater. "Nice guys finish last" isn't just an old saying - its an absolute truth. Why? Because they don't have the subconsciousness 'meaness' to thoroughly reduce their enemies to quivering masses of jelly.
This is why the people in charge invented religions. Because without some sort of fictitious 'final reward', humans would behave like animals. Being 'good' would be pointless. Unfortunately, that also means we'd have zero civilization - we WOULD be 'mere animals'. Thus, 'morality' was invented.
People sometimes ask me how I can possibly be a so smart, and yet still be very religious (especially since deep down, I know religions are works of fiction). Its because without that moral-compass stamped over my personality, I'd revert to my reptilian brain, and make Hanibal Lector look like an amateur. Thus, religion itself becomes 'a necessary evil'.
So getting back to the topic - a group of wizards who have no problem with becoming liches - something evil, gross, and anathema to life itself - would not be defeated so easily, EVER. They have ZERO moral compass. They would win every time. Ed, being the very smart man he is, probably realized this, and that's why we need the Chosen 'Justice League', because without that OP counter-agent, a fantasy setting makes little sense.
This is why I have never used a dragon in my games, and never will. I've seen a video of a crocodile ripping the bumper off a car. And there are dozens of videos showing what an elephant can do to a vehicle. Plate-mail would be a joke. And they aren't super-smart, or have armor-plating scales, or breath fire, etc., etc. A 'knight in shining armor' would not stand a chance against an actual creature like that, no matter how 'good' he may be. Evil is POWER, and power rules, always. You can't rule through weakness. Organizations like the Red Wizards and the Zhents don't rise to the positions they are in just to make a bunch of asinine mistakes. That makes no sense. If Thay has the ability to do this - to annihilate 50 cities whenever they wanted - i just don't see how Aglarond has ever beaten them, or Rashemen for that matter.
And don't even get me started on why they never bother trying to takeover non-entities like Thesk, or the Great Dale. They turned aside the Tuigan Horde! A group that defeated Shou-lung, which is an empire they size of Faerūn itself. And yet, they can't defeat a bunch of farmers with pitchforks. Go figure. Tam should have had the Simbul in a cage in his lab, or stuffed and mounted like a trophy.
Unless someone here can explain to me how the Simbul is more powerful than Bane? |
| Demzer |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 18:25:51
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
Then they had that other artifact that acted like a massive spell pool but that broke too.
Their nuke is being an organization of wizards that runs a country.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And the red wizards are believed stupid for the same reason that countries are believed stupid. They do things that counter themselves and their own actioms and they do it for the same reason as america has just run out of money to pay its own government. Inside the red wizards there are many competing factions that will do anything (including hinder themselves) to weaken their opposing factions.
Thay creates a huge army and wastes it. Well that was probably one faction plotting against the other and changing generals or even attacking the army that the other faction made.
Its all just about greedy short sighted people doing unimaginably stupid things just to get petty revenge. A lot like real life
Except that they wouldn't be able to cast spells if that was the case, so they wouldn't be Red "Wizards" to begin with.
I'm sick and tired of people playing high-intelligence characters like idiots the same way I'm sick and tired of wizards doing idiotic things just because they're evil.
Being good doesn't make people smart, being evil doesn't make people stupid.
Yet evil wizards (Thayan, Zhents, random cabalists, etc...) are consistently more idiotic than your run of the mill Cormyrean War Wizard or Harper Wizard or member of the Watchful Order of Magists ad Protectors with no other reason than artistic choice. That's all good in the novels but has no bearing on my Realms.
But this is not getting us anywhere because is something I strongly feel about and I don't think is useful to start this kind of debate here, sorry.
So, just to get back kind of on topic after my rant, assuming that the "Orcgates" operation was conducted while the Red Wizards (the canonical, published ones) were acting as a collective force with the goal of freeing Thay, I see no problem in them using all kinds of Teleportation Circles, Gates (the spell not the fixed ones), altered summonings (just like regular "Summon Monster ..." but picking specific kind of creatures from specific places) and other ways all pumped with circle magic to do something as big as that.
There is a reason people fear organized groups of spellcasters (be they wizards, socrcerers, clerics or whatever), they can really ruin your day, I just wish it was like that consistently across the alignment range. Good guys/gals can do impressive things with magic, bad guys/gals should be able to do the same. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 11:36:10
Well they had that nuke. They used it and destroyed 50 of the 100000 settlements in faerun and then the nuke broke and they cant use it anymore.
Then they had that other artifact that acted like a massive spell pool but that broke too.
And the red wizards are believed stupid for the same reason that countries are believed stupid. They do things that counter themselves and their own actioms and they do it for the same reason as america has just run out of money to pay its own government. Inside the red wizards there are many competing factions that will do anything (including hinder themselves) to weaken their opposing factions.
Thay creates a huge army and wastes it. Well that was probably one faction plotting against the other and changing generals or even attacking the army that the other faction made.
Its all just about greedy short sighted people doing unimaginably stupid things just to get petty revenge. A lot like real life |
| Demzer |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 10:26:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!)
Exactly. This is why my Thay and my Red Wizards are completely different and people do actually thoroughly fear them and they're not just ordinary baddies you bully, kill by the scores, insult and/or boycott easily.
"They're so ebil they are stupid" is something I never accepted. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:53:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I feel a map coming on...
I a so dying to do one of those time-lapse things using a GIF (doing the Old Empires).
Well I'm detailing the Old Empires across the ages right now. Give me a shout if you want some info (although I did split Unther in two but it is slightly based on canon). The spread of Unther into the Shaar and beyond has been a bit of a problem (happened at least twice) but that's what I find fun about rewriting - I get to fill in the gaps. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:50:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know, the one thing I don't like about all of this is that on the one hand, Portals/Gates are supposed to be really hard to create, and very important (logistically) when one is found, and on the other hand, we get people creating whole batches of them, willy-nilly, all over the lace.
If teleportation magic is really this easy (and you can move around numbers of beings on that scale), then why isn't everyone doing it, all the time? It just doesn't make sense, IMO.
EDIT:
We can't even blame it on Netheril's fall (and magic changing), because its too recent. I'm really not feeling at ease with that lore, as-is. Its just seems very broken to me. Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!)
Well I think that's largely down to misconception.
Magic isn't easy or cost free. In fact it should be darned expensive (and in my game it is - each spell costs 1sp per spell level to cast and your average commoner makes less than 10sp in a year and merchants earn less than 1-10gp in a year and nobles earn less than 100gp in a year and kings earn less than 1000gp in a year. And they all have to use up half in costs. I kept magic item creation costs the same so they are prohibitively expensive to make - you don't make a magic item unless you are commissioned to by someone rich although acquiring all the reagents through adventurers can reduce the cost to almost nothing but that would take years. You certainly can't sell a magic item in a shop they just aren't that common.
So casting a magic spell is expensive especially teleport which is level 5-7 I think (5sp to cast on top of any other unique reagents required).
I reckon the other misconception is that of portals and gates. You can create a portal with a spell or two and it will last an amount of time depending upon the distance (the further the distance the shorter it lasts and the more errors that occur if its used). To make it two way you have to travel to the other end and cast the same spell the other way. This is purely a magic force and is essentially invisible. Wizards can learn how to cast this spell for themselves - its not super advanced magic.
Elves use this all the time and they create lots of short distance portals (100 miles) to allow them to jump all over the place (hence the portal networks). They make them permanent to last longer but even that doesn't last forever.
The gates of Imaskar however are great big stargate like structures made of rare metals and inscribed with batrachi style runes and infused with tons of magic like a gigantic teleportation artefact (which they are). These cost millions to make but they allow risk free teleportation (two way) to any other stargate terminus over any distance. Or they can be used to create a portal just as the spell does to any other destination (but of course its only one way).
The portal magic is relatively easy to access and less expensive in the short term of history. THe gates are the rare and expensive magic - that's what the twisted rune wanted when they kidnapped Halaster. Its what the batrachi and sarrukh used too. The gates are hellishly expensive in the short term but over the history of a nation they become cheap.
At least that's how I'm playing it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:40:56
I feel a map coming on...
I am so dying to do one of those time-lapse things using a GIF (doing the Old Empires). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:34:44
Well I actually split Unther into two separate Empire so for me Chessenta wasn't the same as Unther during the Orcgate Wars.
And we are talking about the Orcgate Affairs here (2000 years later) and at that point in time Chessenta was very different to Unther. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:33:11
Ya know, the one thing I don't like about all of this is that on the one hand, Portals/Gates are supposed to be really hard to create, and very important (logistically) when one is found, and on the other hand, we get people creating whole batches of them, willy-nilly, all over the lace.
If teleportation magic is really this easy (and you can move around numbers of beings on that scale), then why isn't everyone doing it, all the time? It just doesn't make sense, IMO.
EDIT:
We can't even blame it on Netheril's fall (and magic changing), because its too recent. I'm really not feeling at ease with that lore, as-is. Its just seems very broken to me. Its like Thay has had nukes all along, they just don't feel like using them (seriously, 50 cities?!) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:29:57
Well if I read it right the Orcgate Affairs got the orcs right out of the mountains so the portals themselves appeared in the tunnels of the mountains while the orcs were still inside it. Makes it easier to get the orcs as the entire tunnel is blocked by a portal that you can't see.
So hundreds of portals block hundreds of tunnels deep in the mountains and the orcs wander right into them on their way to the surface (perhaps the Thayans covered the cave exits to the surface with the portals so the orcs would be temporarily blinded by the sunlight and wouldn't even see the orc in front of them disappearing to another land) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 21:22:58
I have a feeling they were meant to be the same event, but now they are getting repsun as separate 'Orgate affairs'. A lot of redundant lore that couldn't possibly fit on a normal timeline was fixed this way (and I am not so sure it was the best way of doing things, IMHO).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Isnt chessenta the place with a city of half orcs ruled by a half orc.
Wasn't Chessenta part of Unther at the time of the Orcgate Wars?
Unther wasn't always the tiny little thing it is now - you have to look further afield.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where's this lore from where it detail 50 cities?
Oh noessssss!
I feel fifty new Tharchs coming on.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:55:47
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unfortunately I never bothered to write down the sources. It comes from a sourcebook because its not coloured purple in my archive (I colour my own stuff purple) but I don't know where from.
Google provides though. Its from Prayers from the Faithful
Ok, just because I hate when I can't see the quotes when I search on this stuff later. Posting. Also, it does indicate more than one portal (actually scores, which would indicate at least 40 and possibly hundreds). So, given this, yeah, I'm going to lean towards Markustays idea of some kind of flying/scooping portal swooping down an dumping orcs..... and I do like that they were INTENDED to all get sent to Thay, and did not (uh oh).
From Prayers from the Faithful entry for Lash of Loviatar
The sacred weapon became almost an anti-establishment badge of the faithso much so that when Naneethrama Luin rose from humble origins to slay the Highmost Lash of the Lady (Undreena, who had replaced Imra in 916 DR), and claim the rulership of the Loviatan church for her own in 929 DR, she gave the Lash to the lowest ranking priestess she could find in Undelos, and bade her take it out into Faerūn and give it to the most needy lay worshiper of the faith she
could find.
In so doing, she undoubtedly preserved the sacred item from destruction for Naneethrama, the Sacred Throne of Skulls, Undelos, and all were swept away in the Great Rising of the Orcgates, in 955 DR, when a fell power (some say Thayan archmages experimenting with dangerous spells, others insist that the gods of the orcs themselves were responsible) suddenly brought into being scores of dimensional
portals that spewed forth orcs from the mountain caverns of the far North to lay waste to half a hundred cities and realms all over Faerūn. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:27:38
And Markustay I think just provided the answer for how Airspur came to be populated with so many half orcs |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:22:17
Unfortunately I never bothered to write down the sources. It comes from a sourcebook because its not coloured purple in my archive (I colour my own stuff purple) but I don't know where from.
Google provides though. Its from Prayers from the Faithful |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:16:05
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just checked out my archive.
No mention of orcs anywhere in the lore regarding unther except for that immediately relevant to the Orcgate Wars. No stray orcs to be found anywhere in Unther. No NPCs no monsters nothing.
Looked up the bit about what I thought was Endrara being destroyed by orcs from the Orcgates Affair and it says
955 DR Year of the Telltale Candle: Orcgates Affair: The mages of the Covenant [797, 976] gather a great, armed host from the human settlements of the North to confront an orc horde massing in the Spine of the World. In a move known as the Orcgates Affair, the Red Wizards [934, 976] of Thay magically transport the horde far to the south by means of great portals. The North is spared much devastation, and the failure of the orcs to appear deals a significant blow to the influence and prestige of the Covenant.
Multiple portals open in Undelos and disgorge untold numbers of orcs that annihilate Undelos, the Sacred Throne of Skulls and Naneethrama as well as 50 or more cities and realms across the rest of Faerūn.
So it was called the Orcgates Affair (note the plural) and 50 other cities were destroyed. I'm happy with that as it means I can have multiple portals disgorging orcs randomly and plenty of cities destroyed (maybe even a few in Unther - I feel a ruin coming along).
Where's this lore from where it detail 50 cities? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:10:36
Just checked out my archive.
No mention of orcs anywhere in the lore regarding unther except for that immediately relevant to the Orcgate Wars. No stray orcs to be found anywhere in Unther. No NPCs no monsters nothing.
Looked up the bit about what I thought was Endrara being destroyed by orcs from the Orcgates Affair and it says
quote:
955 DR Year of the Telltale Candle: Orcgates Affair: The mages of the Covenant [797, 976] gather a great, armed host from the human settlements of the North to confront an orc horde massing in the Spine of the World. In a move known as the Orcgates Affair, the Red Wizards [934, 976] of Thay magically transport the horde far to the south by means of great portals. The North is spared much devastation, and the failure of the orcs to appear deals a significant blow to the influence and prestige of the Covenant.
Multiple portals open in Undelos and disgorge untold numbers of orcs that annihilate Undelos, the Sacred Throne of Skulls and Naneethrama as well as 50 or more cities and realms across the rest of Faerūn.
So it was called the Orcgates Affair (note the plural) and 50 other cities were destroyed. I'm happy with that as it means I can have multiple portals disgorging orcs randomly and plenty of cities destroyed (maybe even a few in Unther - I feel a ruin coming along). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:40:52
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Isnt chessenta the place with a city of half orcs ruled by a half orc.
That was airspur, and its now destroyed (or went to Abeir depending on your take). Of course, that's only if you accept current lore. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:32:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Could be that the orcs Thay stole became more stock for their neo-Orog program...
Or the original stock. Bear in mind, this is only 30 years after the founding of Thay. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:11:22
Isnt chessenta the place with a city of half orcs ruled by a half orc. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 18:48:11
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I had never considered the orcgate affair being used to occupy Unther and Mulhorand before but that was partly because there was no mentiom of any orcs appearing in Unther or Mulhorand at the time.
Easily remedied as both those realms are very secretive and do not really allow foreigners in.
The big problem i see is that there is no mention of orcs anywhere in Unther at all. So either they were incorrectly classified as something else, they were almost totally eradicated by Unther (unlikely given the decline of Unther by this time), or they were killed off by something else (perhaps a disease).
Time for my brain to start working on mountain orc incursions in Unther and what kind of ramifications that might have.
Cheers George, you always provide amazing insights (i finished a fortress in the Uthangol Mountains as you suggested and then hid it from the world to explain its lack of mention).
See? Different people read the same material and get a different picture of something.
I figured the population of Unther to be about 98% Orc.
Just a slight exaggeration LOL, but I did think Unther was loaded with Orcs. It was the only place where we see orcs getting along fine with humans, and we also see an orc (half-orc, but close enough) ruler in a nearby citystate. In fact, the only place were Orcs 'horde' and go on rampages (and are therefor 'Kill on sight' by humans) is in The North. nearly everywhere else, they are taken on a person-by-person basis, just like everyone else.
Now Drow - those guys are UNIVERSALLY feared and hated. Except in The North... not anymore, anyway. Stupid Drizzt - he turned out to be Lolth's greatest 'trap card'. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 15:56:43
Could be that the orcs Thay stole became more stock for their neo-Orog program... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 15:40:03
Well im intending that the gate didnt work as well because it had been taken apart and not put back together right.
So the intention was to steal a horde of mountain orcs and release them on mulhorand and unther (and keep a few for experimentation), but what happened is that the orcs got released randomly all over faerun but with a larger concentration nearer to unther and mulhorand and thay. It provides a plot device to explain orcs appearing in places they shouldnt exist.
I dont think anyone in the realms today possesses the knowledge to make permanent gates like that except for halaster (there was a whole adventure about kidnapping him to gain that knowledge).
Im thinking that creating a one way portal is easiest to do with magic and can be done with the regular spells from the weave. It allows a temporary portal to appear that allows instantaneous travel over a distance but only one way.
Two way portal requires the same spells be cast to move back in the other direction.
The longer the distance the more errors occur when using the portal (ed always built in errors). I figure the elves knew to keep the distances small to increase the chances of success and thats why we have portal networks stretching across faerun. Humans are greedy and always try to go as far as they can at once.
The gates the imaskari and sarrukh used are physical gateways like the stargate. You can pass through them to a destination with much less error chance and they stay open or closed as long as you want. To get back you need to build a similar gate on the other side.
These gates require skilled magic that few mastered (imaskari, batrachi) as they never degrade like a normal portal they are permanent unless switched off or redirected to another terminus.
Im going to treat the gates like an artifact so destroying them is almost impossible. Instead the mulhorandi took the gate apart in segments and buried the segments in the ground.
The red wizards dug up enough of these segments but rather than put it back together (which they couldnt do because they didnt have all the segments) they used each segment as part of its own portal and opened multiple little portals into the orc warrens. The magic was unstable and the orcs got dumped all over faerun along with the segmenta of the orcgate (also provides the potential that someone could gather them all together again). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 14:48:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
It would probably be just as easy to create a new orcgate as to find and repair the old one.
That would be my expectation. |
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