| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:56:45
So the 5E Durnan from Tales from the Yawning Portal, aside from the great art on the cover and page 7, seems like a real SOB who is "heartless," excepting that the world is cruel and folk must be self sufficient and independent. He said to be ageless and have returned from Undermountain following the Spellplague with enough riches to buy out his descendants (4E Halls of Undermountain) and take his inn back over.
This is fine except, the original Durnan, friend of Mirt, was described (City of Splendors and Expedition to Undermountain, among other sources) as NG and hating unfairness and injustice (not to mentioned married to a CG cleric of Tymora), which seems far from heartless.
This new Durnan seems much more CN, so is it possible its not him? Maybe he's a dopplegange, but if so, he's he working for? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 Oct 2018 : 23:04:13
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
A doppleganger of the Unseen?
-- George Krashos
Now that is interesting. George quietly dropping ideas... |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 29 Sep 2018 : 21:09:26
Durnan had been married with children at one point.
I'll take a mix and match please, the Durnan we see in 5E is actually a member of the Unseen and the real Durnan is in the sword Grimvault. Some sort of cursed "good" sword haunting an "evil" character. Maybe there is a battle of wills going on hence the Neutral alignment. Maybe the sword is feeding him false memories, explaining the different look, to try to hit to people something isn't right here. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 29 Sep 2018 : 19:48:27
What if Durnan fell in love with an adventurer while traipsing around Undermountain, and lost his love in a cruel situation that he could not prevent or stop?
It could make for an interesting fetch quest - to gather the remains for resurrection or if that's not possible, to find a keepsake that was carried/worn by the deceased lover.
|
| moonbeast |
Posted - 29 Sep 2018 : 15:43:30
Having drunk gnomes come into my bar every day asking for a mug of "Hardbuckler Flamethrower" would drive me bitter and crazy too.
|
| TomCosta |
Posted - 29 Sep 2018 : 13:55:11
Khelben is still dead. His spirit remains attached to the Blackstaff. |
| Fineva |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 05:31:25
Wait...Khelben return? |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 22:29:50
It's quite possible the Red Sashes disbanded when Durnan disappeared for 100 years. Also possible, despite statements to the contrary, that this returned Durnan is not in fact Durnan, but a member of the Unseen or a Malaugrym or something else entirely, perhaps even an avatar of Tymora or Tyche. Who knows. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 20:47:46
A little late to this thread, I didn't bother with Tales of the Yawning Portal since it didn't really have any realms adventures. But Dragon Heist has an entry for Durnan, lists him as True Neutral now.
I was looking for images of Durnan when I stumbled on this thread. I always imagined him looking something like this but seems 5E has chosen to depict him like this, very hipster if you ask me. The only 2E images I could find were in the Heroes' Lorebook, not a big fan of either his or Mirt's picture there.
Anyway something interesting in Dragon Heist is he has a greatsword named Grimvault, from the stats sounds like vorpal?, maybe this has something to do with his change in alignment? Also I haven't seen any mention of the Red Sashes in 5E which Durnan used to run.
P.S. If anyone knows where I can find some good pictures of Durnan or Mirt that would be great, I could swear some 2E source had a full page amazing picture of Mirt. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 22:10:15
Possible Balmar, also with Durnan as a secret Lord of Waterdeep and leader of the vigilante Red Sashes, this would have made protecting the city easier. |
| Balmar Foghaven |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 18:24:21
I personally always liked the idea of Durnan having some sort of agreement with Halaster ever since he emerged from Undermountain with his riches. Something along the lines of allowing adventurers to enter into Undermountain to brave its depths at their Peril - which Halaster clearly wanted to satsify his own
mad agendas - in return for Halaster keeping a tight rein on his creatures and/or preventing incursions into the city from the Underdark. Considering Durnan's tavern makes most of its profit from adventurers seeking to go dungeon-delving, it's a win-win scenario. It also would have made Halaster a necessary evil, since his presence would actually benefit the city's safety. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 00:48:44
Bane and Asmodeus are not similar in my mind. Bane is a conquering tyrant. Asmodeus is the manipulator at the heart of people who are turned to evil. One is brute force - one is elegant control. Similar result but very different method. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 23:40:15
I had to look up who Zalathorm was... people aren't my specialty. 
Well, my idea above was more of an 'as-is' save, with no differences. if someone was drinking a steaming cup of tea, they reappear post-Sundering still holding the hot tea. I didn't really picture anyone controlling it (it may have even been some sort of 'fail-safe' Mystra added after the ToT fiasco, or even something Ao himself added after the first Sundering (in other places around here I've discussed how parts of Abeir may have been used to place the people 'erased' by the Elven tampering with the Sundering).
Thus, as the 'short circuit' passes over an area, all those people and things go into a 'backup file'. You know what would be funny? If the 'Restore point' was actually a few minutes before the Spellplague stuck (Auto-Save?  ), and someone managed to teleport out just as the Cerulean Wave washed over them. Then a hundred years later, they run into their younger self (they got 'duped', in game terms). I wouldn't do that more than once, though.
As for Durnam, I think he even had a bit of interaction with Halaster in Elminster in Hell - wasn't it Durnam who went down there to talk to him? If anyone would be down in Undermountain looking for (and perhaps finding a piece of) Halaster, it would have been him.
Thus, while I do like the idea of being able to save whomever - and whatever - I want (a great McGuffin allowing DMs to still cherry-pick the old sources), I think it might be more fun giving Durnam some interesting backstory, since he did change. Maybe even a short story (Ed? Are you listening?) where the guy is walking around mumbling to himself (literally talking to himself - he's got a shard of pure crazy in there with him now).
With Bane, I keep wanting to tie him to Asmodeus - its a great fit. It just stomps all over previous lore. Old Bane is even closer to Asmodeus, theme-wise, then the 4e/5e version, and now we have actual Asmodeus, so there might be something to do with all that. Too bad 4e Core had both, otherwise I could have spun it where our Bane was really Asmodeus the whole time. Maybe use some old 3e rules - those 'aspect of' things - like, "Bane, the Herald of Asmodeus". Something like that. Except one 'Bane' got too big for his britches (FR's, of course, thus we get to keep our own continuity intact). If anyone would be using aliases to invade Crystal Spheres, it would be a dude who is said, "His name is Legion'. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 22:50:26
Interesting Cyrinishad. I like the idea of adding a little darkness to Zalathorm. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 20:24:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, any Doctor Who fans here? There must be. Did you see the episode with the library (Silence in the Library) - very important episode; we have the Vashta Nerada, and more importantly, it introduces us to River Song (and only in DW you can meet a series-prominent character in the same episode she dies).
But the point I want to make here is what happened to the people in the library (and if you haven't seen the episode, TOO BAD - too late for me to care about spoilers years later!!!) One of my favorite lines of the show: "Donna Noble Has Been Saved". they were stored. Why couldn't we have something like that - when the 'Blue Wave of death' passes over people and places, how about instead of just dying or going to Abeir, they are 'stored' in some sort of interdimensional limbo - erased from the real world (The Prime material), but their 'essence' and all the information about their physicality gets stored in some sort of 'cosmic data dump' (The Cloudlands? LOL!) We know mortal memories are saved like this - the Astral plane becomes a huge 'filing cabinet' for all those memories (which is why souls don't remember their lives - the 'intellect' goes somewhere else). Or like how the transporter in ST can store people and stuff.
And then when Ao does the Sunder-reset, people simply reappear from a hundred years in the past. Those folks didn't die, they got scooped-up by the disintegrating Weave and became part of the raw magical fabric around Toril. Its may be hokey, but no more hokey than anything canon we've seen.
I really like the Halaster/Durnan concept, it fits on a lot of levels for me... But, I also like the idea you're presenting in the quote above, it is very much along the lines of what I was trying to achieve by preserving many of the "classic" villains for my current campaign... and the question as to "who is the storer?"... I would suggest that the "Storer" would be Zalathorm... He is a logical choice to preserve characters for re-introduction after the Spellplague, since he should have seen the Spellplague coming... Considering the lore that the deity Savras may have "stored" himself for later within the Scepter of Savras, it stands to reason that Zalathorm, OR the Benign Order of the Third Eye (whose members were known as "Archivists") could have implemented a similar plan to "store" people so that they weren't wiped out in the Spellplague.
Disclaimer: In my campaign Zalathorm is in league with Bane, and has been since the beginning (he foresaw both Bane's return & the Spellplague)... So, he made extensive preparations to ensure that both Bane & Halruua would avoid destruction during the Spellplague, and emerge stronger than ever in its wake... One of the preparations was to find a way to bring as many classic BBEGs into the post-Spellplague realms as possible (perhaps a now heartless Durnan could be one of them)...
However, considering that members of the Benign Order of the Third Eye received a vision from Savras (prior to the Spellplague) informing them of the need to accumulate knowledge from ALL possible sources in order to be prepared for an upcoming battle with Cyric... Perhaps their way of "fighting" Cyric was to find a way to "store" all the knowledge & people of the Realms, so that they could re-emerge after the Spellplague? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:16:57
Yeah - she was much better than Vangy's goofyspider-head thing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 13:09:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can understand saving Elminster, and even bringing Khelben back (that could be the 'real' Khelben), but I don't understand bringing back Mirt. He's NOT IMPORTANT. I just don't understand the deal with him. I know he's Ed's favorite (even moreso then El), but there was no point in saving someone like that. Overweight old soldier who is now a money-lender (and sometime 'secret lord'). Now that other guy - Elaith Craulnober - now THAT GUY is definitely worth saving... AND PLAUSIBLE.
We all have our favorites, I suppose. Personally, I would have loved to save Alusair - her story was so incomplete. Sad, really.
Thank you for your appreciation of my 'Halashards' idea. 
They kinda did save Alusair... she wanders around the castle as a ghost. |
| Balmar Foghaven |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 11:09:19
I mean, for the more prominent and high-level fan favorite NPCS (who I would assume had lots of cash from their adventures) could have their next of kin pay for True Resurrections which IIRC can affect someone who died up to 200 years ago.
The ability and affordability of resurrections notwithstanding, I do recall a possibility for a 'memory storage' system similar to that which Markustay described. For those of you who played "Mask of the Betrayer" for Neverwinter Nights 2, you might recall the Slumbering Coven - a coven of hags who traded dreams as currency for information. They wove the dreams into some sort of tapestry sustained by their willpower, and were shown to be able to recreate physical embodiments of entities from the past using the dreamscape.
Anyway, the point of this reference is that one could argue that if the memories of an individual are stored in a dreamscape-like phenomenon, I'm quite positive that a "mind clone" or transference of consciousness could take place to restore said individual to a new body (or perhaps its old one, creating some wonderful undead shenanigans :P). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 08:27:28
That's is possible, but it means that someone stored them. In Doctor Who was the child (who stored them at the risk of killing herself, because her databanks didn't had that many memory space). In the Realms, who? And what is the idiosyncrasy of this 'storer'? Why he or she does that? And what kind of people it stores? Evil? Good?
Because, yeah, you want to save a few characters from the novels (instead of making new, more interesting ones, as Tom suggested, and that is a very good idea... but, I'm biased here; I don't like characters from the novels in my Realms), and perhaps our 'storer' saved them just because they are important or something... but I don't see the 'storer' care for everyone. The unimportant peasants even less. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 07:28:21
Okay, any Doctor Who fans here? There must be. Did you see the episode with the library (Silence in the Library) - very important episode; we have the Vashta Nerada, and more importantly, it introduces us to River Song (and only in DW you can meet a series-prominent character in the same episode she dies).
But the point I want to make here is what happened to the people in the library (and if you haven't seen the episode, TOO BAD - too late for me to care about spoilers years later!!!) One of my favorite lines of the show: "Donna Noble Has Been Saved". they were stored. Why couldn't we have something like that - when the 'Blue Wave of death' passes over people and places, how about instead of just dying or going to Abeir, they are 'stored' in some sort of interdimensional limbo - erased from the real world (The Prime material), but their 'essence' and all the information about their physicality gets stored in some sort of 'cosmic data dump' (The Cloudlands? LOL!) We know mortal memories are saved like this - the Astral plane becomes a huge 'filing cabinet' for all those memories (which is why souls don't remember their lives - the 'intellect' goes somewhere else). Or like how the transporter in ST can store people and stuff.
And then when Ao does the Sunder-reset, people simply reappear from a hundred years in the past. Those folks didn't die, they got scooped-up by the disintegrating Weave and became part of the raw magical fabric around Toril. Its may be hokey, but no more hokey than anything canon we've seen. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 04:52:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can understand saving Elminster, and even bringing Khelben back (that could be the 'real' Khelben), but I don't understand bringing back Mirt. He's NOT IMPORTANT. I just don't understand the deal with him. I know he's Ed's favorite (even moreso then El), but there was no point in saving someone like that. Overweight old soldier who is now a money-lender (and sometime 'secret lord'). Now that other guy - Elaith Craulnober - now THAT GUY is definitely worth saving... AND PLAUSIBLE.
We all have our favorites, I suppose. Personally, I would have loved to save Alusair - her story was so incomplete. Sad, really.
Thank you for your appreciation of my 'Halashards' idea.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying - only backwards. Ed has his characters that no one else gets to use because they are his. I'd say leaving him that little slice of his realms unmolested by the mighty awfulness of the various Edition changes is small enough price to pay for the Realms :) I only wish this would extend further - make hundreds of blue-fire item people come back and give us back all the amazing characters from pre-4E. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 04:44:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Hmm - who's the aussie? Sage maybe... or Krash? Must have gotten you guys mixed up. For Florida, substitute gators for crocs - big gators, not those little ones my sister could wrestle :P
Sage and I are both from Australia.
-- George Krashos
I am in Melbourne, but it's not the one most people think of when they hear the name.
AH - that is definitely why. My brain must have filed you into Australia because I read somewhere you mention Melbourne. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 02:50:21
I can understand saving Elminster, and even bringing Khelben back (that could be the 'real' Khelben), but I don't understand bringing back Mirt. He's NOT IMPORTANT. I just don't understand the deal with him. I know he's Ed's favorite (even moreso then El), but there was no point in saving someone like that. Overweight old soldier who is now a money-lender (and sometime 'secret lord'). Now that other guy - Elaith Craulnober - now THAT GUY is definitely worth saving... AND PLAUSIBLE.
We all have our favorites, I suppose. Personally, I would have loved to save Alusair - her story was so incomplete. Sad, really.
Thank you for your appreciation of my 'Halashards' idea.
|
| TomCosta |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 01:35:30
So the 100 year jump was a horrendous mistake in my opinion. 4E overall (and I played it for about a year) killed D&D for me for a while (although not having time with two little kids didn't help). That said, there has to be some believability to the time jump. Saving a character just because it's one of Ed's is like saying "just cuz" to me. Ed created so many that would save way too many. Durnan is not Elminster or the Seven. He could have died just fine and stayed replaced by Durnan the 6th and I would have been fine.
Frankly, I don't care that much that they brought him back. I'd just like to put some meat on those bones.
But it's also time to make some new and interesting characters and not just keep using the same ones Ed created 50 years ago. There's magic so save some, but there's got to be enough creativity to write new and equally interesting characters. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 00:59:09
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Hmm - who's the aussie? Sage maybe... or Krash? Must have gotten you guys mixed up. For Florida, substitute gators for crocs - big gators, not those little ones my sister could wrestle :P
Sage and I are both from Australia.
-- George Krashos
I am in Melbourne, but it's not the one most people think of when they hear the name. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 00:52:33
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Hmm - who's the aussie? Sage maybe... or Krash? Must have gotten you guys mixed up. For Florida, substitute gators for crocs - big gators, not those little ones my sister could wrestle :P
Sage and I are both from Australia.
-- George Krashos |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 00:12:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
AND he's been sending adventurer after adventurer to their almost certain deaths for a LONG time. Sounds pretty heartless to me :P
Sending them to their almost certain deaths? So he's forcing people to come to him and pay for a ride down the Well? How heartless, letting people follow their own free will! It's truly horrible to let people take a chance on coming out wealthy, like he did!
When you think about it he is. You're an Aussie so I'll make a clumsy Aussie comparison :P. Think of it as sending stupid drunk teenagers croc wrestling. He's making money off of doomed people.
Aussie? I've never set foot in Australia. I'm in Florida.
And since people do make it out of Undermountain, I don't see that it's certain doom to go in there.
Hmm - who's the aussie? Sage maybe... or Krash? Must have gotten you guys mixed up. For Florida, substitute gators for crocs - big gators, not those little ones my sister could wrestle :P |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 23:06:53
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
AND he's been sending adventurer after adventurer to their almost certain deaths for a LONG time. Sounds pretty heartless to me :P
Sending them to their almost certain deaths? So he's forcing people to come to him and pay for a ride down the Well? How heartless, letting people follow their own free will! It's truly horrible to let people take a chance on coming out wealthy, like he did!
When you think about it he is. You're an Aussie so I'll make a clumsy Aussie comparison :P. Think of it as sending stupid drunk teenagers croc wrestling. He's making money off of doomed people.
Aussie? I've never set foot in Australia. I'm in Florida.
And since people do make it out of Undermountain, I don't see that it's certain doom to go in there. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 21:31:08
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
And that said, having another guy live a hundred years just cuz (at least without some interesting back story) to me is boring. I was originally thinking something along the lines of George with the Unseen. Certainly, controlling the owner of the Yawning Portal offers a treasure trove of information. But I think I like Mark's idea of some sort of shard of Halaster, changing him and giving him longer life in the process. It could also be linked to a faction like the Unseen as well. A somewhat warped Durnan might not be as loyal to Waterdeep and more loyal, if he's capable of it, to someone or something else.
It not Just cuz. Its cuz he's Eds character and WOTC doesn't get to kill off all the characters Ed spent 40-50 years creating just because they want to fast-forward the realms.
Same goes for Mirt, and pretty much every other character who is still alive that he had to contrive some reason for. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 21:27:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
AND he's been sending adventurer after adventurer to their almost certain deaths for a LONG time. Sounds pretty heartless to me :P
Sending them to their almost certain deaths? So he's forcing people to come to him and pay for a ride down the Well? How heartless, letting people follow their own free will! It's truly horrible to let people take a chance on coming out wealthy, like he did!
When you think about it he is. You're an Aussie so I'll make a clumsy Aussie comparison :P. Think of it as sending stupid drunk teenagers croc wrestling. He's making money off of doomed people. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 16:07:59
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
This is what makes the Spellplague and the time-skip pointless, IHMO. The point of those IRL was to get rid of mary sues, plot-device characters and metaplots, create a new blank state for the Realms (with the new changes they wanted for 4e, as well). Yet all the plot-device characters, and the mary sues as well, survived...
I, personally, don't think it had anything to do with all that. I think the entire point was giving their authors the option of not worrying about anything that came before...
I base this on one of the statements they made at the time: that there was nowhere in the Realms where stories hadn't been told. Not only was this patently false, it also presupposes that only one story could ever happen in any given location... And their argument is further negated by the fact that some of the very first 4E novels were a sextet of books all set in the same place.
Also, the fact that they left the timeskip mostly blank further backs up that the effort was purely to create a blank slate where the past didn't matter. |
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