quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The "Elder Evils" sourcebook also has ideas in how to incorporate Kyuss in various settings, including the Realms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).

Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).

So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.

Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?

quote:

---

Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.

---

Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

---

I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.

I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.

So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.

---

Yeah, the problem I have here is the unbalanced effect. Essentially, for most players, this is just going to force them to choose major gods. However, what if there were something to making having a demipower as your patron a nice thing. Maybe you get more turn undead attempts because your deity is more "focused" on you. Maybe you get some additional type of bonus towards a skill or something based upon the ... what's it called in 5e? Domain?... that you chose to follow if you deity is say a demipower or a lesser power. Or maybe something tailored to each demipower (for instance, maybe a cleric of Karsus can add two wizard spells from the school of transmutation to his spell list at each each spell level that he advances, and gains an extra 2 spells prepared in total). Essentially, you are such a special thing to your deity that he wants to make sure you have as much of a benefit as he can give you.... unlike the priests of those greater gods who are treated as just another cog in the wheel by their deities.

As far as how to make the disadvantage work.... Maybe they can get higher level spells (which now the disparity wouldn't be 6th and 7th levels, it would be 8th and 9th level spells), but its from a much contracted list. Or maybe you get the spell slots, but have to fill them with lower level spells.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordofBones

It just seems really unfair to demipowers. The ones who need worship are the ones who can't actually bestow power on their priests.

Things become a bit more equal when all deities grant all spell levels. Clerics of greater powers have a far greater support network and resources to draw from, while clerics of demipowers trade away resources in exchange for a more personal connection to their patron, who has more invested in them. A cleric of, say, Cyric isn't really going to get anything more than an odd omen or two, but a cleric of Savras has probably met his god and there's a chance of divine intervention if something goes wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

I actually REALLY like all that. It doesn't ring a bell, so somehow I missed those rules (probably sections I 'skipped over' way back when). This ties into what I said about 'farm teams' - if you want to 'play for the majors', you are going to have to get a different god (or your lowered-powered god needs to make some deals of his own... which I am sure many do).

Also, I have house-rules about ways of boosting your divine casting level beyond the normal: Being inside a holy site (which includes 'consecrated ground'), the size of the temple you are in, if any (which directly reflects the local 'worshiper base'), proximity to Holy Relics (+1 same city, +2 same building, +3 "holding it in your hand"), and any other mitigating factors (like just having killed a major enemy of your god, etc).

So there are work-arounds, Sleyvas, which could really add a lot of flavor to your games. Suppose one of your players is a follower of Saint Dionysius. He gets up to the 5th casting level and can't go any further, but he gets a 'vision' from his deity - The Flagon of Dionysius. Its a holy artifact (decanter of endless wine), and each time you imbibe from it you get a level boost (up to three levels - like what I said above about holding a holy relic, except now I am being God-specific). You can have a lot of fun with this. Character gets drunk by accident, the flagon gets stolen by a local urchin, etc.

Regardless, these rules would now have to be tweaked, because I think you can get higher-lev spells one (char) level earlier. I would definitely bounce it up to level 3 nowadays. Maybe keep level 2 for complete non-deities (so it really IS 'all up to you') or even non-entities, but things that have some power - like an arch-anything - can get you up to level 3. Didn't there used to be some sort of numbered 'fiendish hierarchy'? We could have had some fun with that and 'demon cults'. Like 1/2 your fiend-level of your patron for spell level max. I suppose CR might work - maybe 1/4 CR rounded down?

quote:

---

Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.

---

Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

---

I am in a constant battle with myself to keep my posts short (a LOSING battle, as most of you can attest LOL), and then I sometimes think "I should have explained better", like with this.

I was talking only in regards to granting spells, not 'becoming one'. Anyone can become a demipower, sometimes even by accident (a revered 'Hero' is beloved by an entire empire, for example). In fact, my won't-ever-get-published-setting (+ trilogy of novels) has something like this as it's major plot point.

So 'anyone can be a god', but if the demigod wants his followers to get access to higher level spells, then he/she/it needs 'sponsorship'. I was going meta-game with this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.

---

Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.

---

Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).

---

2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."

This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.

Jeff

---

Wow, I had forgotten all that about demigods only being able to grant up to 5th level. That actually is something that I didn't like, because from a metagaming perspective it kind of forced players to steer away from these demigods. I totally get the idea, and it makes sense, but I wouldn't favor it as a rule at my table.

That being said, I like the "flavor" of that concept. What would be a better way to do this nowadays without discouraging players from using these deities? For instance, if there WAS some kind of hindrance, it encourages priests of said deity to try and create a following for their god, which is great for roleplaying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.

---

Some demipowers are formerly lesser/intermediate/greater powers who've lost status, which basically negates all demipowers having to be sponsored. For those who transit instantly from mortal to demipower status, I can see it, but since weaker powers can grant spells and thus gain and expand a priesthood, they should be able to transition up the ranks to demipower and higher status just by increasing their following.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).

---

2nd Level is the limit. It is covered in the 1st edition PHB, DMG, and Legends & Lore/Deities & Demigods:
"As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric's knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells."

This text is what all 2nd edition spell access in Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and situations where deities are imprisoned is based on.

Jeff

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

First, to address something in the top quote that I forgot to address in my last post - from everything I have read over the years, I have always surmised that 'demigods' (demipowers, exarchs, 'Chosen', etc) all had to be be sponsored.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

There were some rules spread among the editions about cults, and worshipping "gods you can't reach" (SJ, RL), wherein I think you could get up to level 3 spells without a real God, simply because the power was being generated by your own faith. This also applies nicely across the board, since most 'cultists' and followers of demipowers wouldn't be all that high a level, and thus, the spell-lev.3 level-cap rarely becomes problematical (at which point a real Power has to step in).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.

---

No, Acererak is a vestige. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuss isn't the same. Perhaps the creation of the epic version of atropal is one of many means by which a vestige can try to escape their imprisonment and be "born again" into the world. Maybe they do this somehow by trying to "convert" the "godstone" body of a dead god or something by feeding it enough power to create a tether.... which could feed back into the whole idea of Tenebrous and Orcus, because ultimately Orcus' godstone body was used to "bring him back". For all we know, its not TRULY Orcus in the demon lord's body any longer... or perhaps not SOLELY Orcus (it could be Orcus with a rider in his mind vying for control). Given some of the things Orcus was doing in 4e, that might make some sense.... as maybe some of the ties to the place where vestiges go has something to do with the abyss and its creation. After all, we do have this concept of "Hidden Layers" of the Abyss, and we know there's layers of the abyss with connections to shattered night.

Also, they specifically say demigod. Granted, what I'm going to say kind of goes against canon, but it also goes with more classical lore. If we say there is a difference between demigod and demipower, it works.... and maybe people "in the know" have been confused over such. By that I would give an example of Iyachtu Xvim... he is a demigod... the son of a god. However, he advanced to demipower at some point by achieving a higher divine rank and obtaining worshippers.

I will note here that 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons had adopted this new term (i.e. demipower instead of demigod), but then 3rd edition Faiths and Pantheons went back to calling things demigods (though there was indeed a divine rank 0 that couldn't grant powers for children of gods). Not sure what happened in 4th edition, etc... as far as terminology.... and of course, anything of this sort would be US making our own new paradigm.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.

---

quote:

---

Origins of Kyuss
After the collapse of the yuan-ti empire of
Mhairshaulk, the yuan-ti and their distant
cousins, the couatls, battled for control of
the Chultan peninsula. Around the time of
Netheril’s founding, the couatl population
declined precipitously, and they sought
another race to keep the western end of the
Chultan Peninsula free of yuan-ti influence.
Eventually the couatl settled on the human
tribes of a distant continent to the southwest
and preached to them the teachings of
Ubtao. Those tribes who accepted Ubtao’s
message (the most prominent of which were
the Eshowe, the Tabaxi, and the Thinguth)
followed the winged serpents in a great
pilgrimage across the seas to the Jungle of
Chult (Amedio Jungle) in –2,809 DR.
The tribes landed on the Wild Coast and
marched inland to the Peaks of Flame, where
the avatar of Ubtao welcomed them. After
all but a handful of the winged serpents
then withdrew from southwestern Faerûn,
the Father of Chult founded the great city of
Mezro (Sulm) in –2,637 dr and dwelt there
for a time among the Tabaxi, the greatest of
the tribes, while the other tribes scattered
throughout the jungles.
In the Year of Reverent Threnody (–653 dr),
a Tabaxi (Flan) named Kyuss and his followers
fled Mezro for the Chultengar, a dark region
on the eastern border of the Jungle of Chult.
There Kyuss founded the city of Kuluth-
Mar, based upon the worship of a six-armed
god of death named Jergal (Nerull).Afer his
followers found the plates that spoke of the
Age of Worms, Kyuss received the spellweaver
lich who gave him the gift of a single green
worm and built the Spire of Long Shadows.
Further details on the history of the
Chultan peninsula and the inhabitants of the
Chultengar are given in Serpent Kingdoms.

---

quote:

---

In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.

---

quote:

---

According to myth (detailed in full in
Faiths & Avatars), Jergal grew bored of his
role as Lord of the Dead and voluntarily
divided his portfolios among Bane, Bhaal,
and Myrkul. The truth is rather more sinister.
Jergal harbored great ambitions to bring all
the Realms under his rule, including all
the other gods and even Ao, the Overgod.
However, Ao’s strictures prevented Jergal
from growing beyond the status of a greater
god, meaning that he could never force all the
other gods to bow down before his throne.
Undeterred, the Lord of the End of
Everything hit upon a plan that would allow
him to evade Ao’s strictures. First, Jergal set in
motion a series of prophecies that would mark
the beginning of the Age of Worms, including
inscribing a process on a set of bronze disks
by which an ambitious mortal (Kyuss) could
ascend to godhood. Second, Jergal embedded
three compulsions in his mind: give away
his portfolios to three gods and profess to be
bored with his role, consume those three gods
after all three had been reborn, and consume
the ascended mortal who followed the
process noted above. Lastly, Jergal extracted
all knowledge of his plan from his own mind,
other than the latent compulsions, and placed
it within the first green worm. Over time,
Jergal’s extracted knowledge was thereby
split among all the worms created by Kyuss.
This last step allowed the Lord of the End of
Everything to avoid Ao’s oversight, as Jergal
himself was thereafter unaware of his own
plan and no other single creature knew the
whole plan as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you for that find.... so they're terming vestiges as "quasi-deities" now. Titans too.



In the 5e DMG it has this to say about demigods...

Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.

---

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordofBones

Ironically, that disqualifies most canon demigods. Almost every demipower in the Realms has a priesthood and grants spells.

That also puts Acererak and Kyuss as demigods, which is absolute nonsense. They were never divine, or had anything to do with the divine other than Kas's murderboner for Vecna.

---

[*]The demigod is worshipped as part of a pantheon.
[*]The demigod is "worshipped" via a mystery cult, which emphasizes identifying with certain aspects of divinity, and seems to be connected to pantheon-worship.
[*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres spirits as in animism.
[*]The worshipper supports the demigod, but actually reveres a force (e.g. entropy, life, knowledge) or a philosophy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Is he though?

Kyuss is like 'the god born dead' to me. The original procedure/ritual that was supposed to turn him into a full god went awry (from what I understand, Mellifleur stole 'the juice') he's basically a still-born god, similar to that Atropal guy. So not quite mortal, but also, not quite a god. something stuck in-between. He is constantly still trying for full godhood, hence his schemes popping-up every now and then on different worlds.

If you make his Divine Realm actually be a Domain of Dread, its the perfect setup. He can even have his own island. In fact, make it inside the body of a giant, dead 'god' (a kraken-like creature of enormous proportions) - his digs will literally be a rotting corpse. And as I said, the Dark powers may have snatched him, and for once, things just didn't go their way - he still had a teensy-tiny bit of 'divinity', and that was enough to make him able to be able to make contact with the outside world (if not escape himself - he can send avatar-like manifestations through sometimes, and that's what PCs would encounter, but the 'real' kyuss will always still be trapped (so long as his planned are thwarted, that is).

Mistworms - odd , slimy little creatures that can literally bore through ANYTHING, including planer barriers, and even magical wards and fields, given enough time. Even the powerful 'veil' the Dark Powers have in place - impenetrable even by Gods* - can be gotten through by the mistworms. They exude a weird, anti-magical form of 'decay' that will even erode these powerful forces; not in their entirety, but just enough for the worms to slip trough. Kyuss can use these to make contact with his disciples - he implants 'orders' in the worm, and then the worm finds the people it needs to (I did mention they can literally create 'wormholes', right?), and burrow into the ear of the target underling. Of course, most of those 'blessed' with the words of Kyuss eventually die from having the thing inside their heads, eating away at their brains, but its a small price to pay to help your god, eh?


*Just had an odd, random thought - what if the 'Dark Powers' are/were Imaskari? They're the only other group I know they were able to build 'Godwalls'. But then again, its not like they were the types to kidnap people and entire cultures from worlds... WAIT A SECOND..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fellfire

What is all this talk of Kanchelsis and Mellifleur? In the 2e Monster Mythology are they not one and the same? Is there some 5e lore I am unaware of? And Kyuss in Chult/Maztica? More 5e?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordofBones

Undeath is not a popular portfolio over lesser god level.

Most powers of undeath don't actually gain anything from worship. Mellifleur gains power for every would-be lich that embraces undeath, Kanchelsis is an equal of Lolth without having any priests. Undead probably don't view the gods of their respective kinds as gods so much as the greatest or most exemplary of their kinds. Faerun is unique in that gods are forced to have worshipers proportionate to their ranks, but I'm sure that the 'weight' of their portfolio also carries metaphysical influence in how powerful they are. In the case of liches, Mellifleur and Velsharoon openly encourage delving deep into magic (necromancy in particular) and have realms that contained untold secrets of the arcane, things dear to every lich's withered heart. Mellifleur (and probably Velsharoon) is known to personally appear and guide liches and would-be liches, so to a lich in Faerun, a token prayer to Velsharoon when researching a new spell wouldn't hurt.

Myrkul was god of the dead and his priests were few, but everyone knew him and everyone came to him. Every petty crime answered by disproportionate laws, every small act of tyranny, every burst of fear, empowers Bane in some way. Likewise, every wizard or cleric or druid that casts a necromancy spell, every mage that pursues lichdom, the act of creating an undead creature and creating new undead creatures all empower Velsharoon in some way.

---