| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 21:19:58
quote:
From the Maztica Boxed Set, Page 44
SUNSTONE
This mysterious artifact occupies the crater of an abandoned volcano. Within the crater lies a lake of liquid silver, about 200 yards across. The Sunstone has the ability to give a seeker a vision, but only if that seeker's heart is pure, and his mind is empty of selfish thoughts. The vision can come only at one time per day: when a seeker sits upon the western rim of the volcano, in the morning, and stares at the silver lake. At the time when the sun's rays hit the lake and reflect back up, directly at the
seeker, the moment of revelation can come. The exact nature of the revelation is a matter for the DM's adjudication; it can suggest a course of action, inform a character of an unknown threat, or otherwise expand his knowledge. Those who study the Sunstone for false reasons will be given false information. Also, inherent to the liquid silver is a permanent teleport effect; anyone touching it, or touching an implement that touches it, is teleported to a random location 20-30 miles away in the surrounding desert.
I've always wondered what in the world this thing could be. It's a pretty unique and interesting location that I might be able to have some fun with. I have some ideas of my own - possibly some connection to the death of Maztica (the goddess) herself.
It played a pretty significant role in the novels as well, but nothing beyond what the boxed set blurb might have to add. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 23 Dec 2017 : 18:42:29
This got very metaphysical. Interesting stuff. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Dec 2017 : 03:30:29
Perhaps Mystryl was the first fusion of a God with a human soul? Its definitely the first recorded one (Ed has told us every incarnation of Mystryl/Mystra has been imprinted on a mortal, in much the same way those manifestations in the Old Empires were made from mortals).
Thus, she may have been the prototype deity. And by doing it that way, the first religion was created - the two-way link (conduit) that forms between worshipers and their god. This would have been quite a big deal for those Estelar and primordials (and whatever other 'big guns' were running around back then). In fact, this could have been one of the impetus for the Godswar (which happened AFTER the Dawn War - gods and primordials who fought with each other turned on one-another).
Old Jeremiah in the next claim over was your best drinkin' buddy, until he struck gold one day. Now your thinking good ol' Jeremey needs to have a little accident... Gods really aren't all that different than mortals. They just wield more power. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Dec 2017 : 03:11:49
Yes, I do indeed harp on that, but most of my ideas - and definitely that one - stem from old D&D lore, so its not so much homebrew theory as it is applying some old (core) lore across the board now, now that D&D has become one huge setting.
In the very first issue of Dragon Magazine there was an article about how all the D&D setting were 'reflections' of each other, but if there was ever an 'original', its now lost. It was written by Garrison Ernst (a Nom De Plume of Gary Gygax) - this is where I get some of my theories on the 'Shattered First World' (although some First/True World stuff comes from other sources as well).
The 'Archtypes' stuff harkens back to 1e AD&D - I believe some of it was discussed in the Deities & Demigods tome, but it may have been elsewhere. It was used specifically in context with the non-human pantheons, which were ALL multispheric in nature (seems that only humans have a habit of creating 'local gods'). Basically, all worlds might have a Corellon, but it isn't exactly the same Corellon. Just as the worlds themselves (see above), each have their own 'imperfect reflections' of the others. The archtypes are the dudes (and dudettes) that hang-out in the Outer Planes, in the Great Wheel, and in their own realms. Aspects of an archtype (and a single world can have many different aspects for a single archtype) hang in their local cosmology; in the case of FR, it would be the Great Tree. Now, does that mean GH worships that REAL versions of the Gods? No, because GH's 'Great Wheel' is NOT the same one in Planescape - it GH's local cosmology... which is connected to the real Great Wheel and the archtypes. Nearly all local cosmologies are linked directly to the True Great Wheel, and because of the way planer topography works, you might not even know you've crossed from one to another (for example, Sigil is SIGIL - there's only one, and its the same one you enter no matter where you came from).
So my 'theories' I consider more along the lines of years and years of accumulated (nerd) knowledge being pieced together in something I hope is somewhat coherent. I don't try to lose anything - I try to get every single version of everything to work together, regardless of edition or world. Archtypes weren't mine - I've just gotten much more mileage out of them then their original intent.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the 'Magical Quicksilver' (Moonsilver) is Silver Fire in a physical form. So yeah, Kukul being the pool also works.
On the other hand, reading the myths right now, I think Qotal is a better choice for Selūne, and then Shar would be Zaltec (although connecting Zaltec to Zehir/set would be interesting as well). Of course, the whole good god/bad god thing plays out MANY times in mythology (warring siblings, etc.) It doesn't ALWAYS have to be Shar & Selūne. Even in my own Proto-cosmology I have it where there were at least three sets of twins that had major ramifications on the Fey. Come to think of it... hmmmm... Shar & Selūn as archfey... I have to mull that one over. It might have some traction. Then again, I already have t where both go back to something much more primal (the 'duality' of the universe - everything has its equal opposite. This stems from THE ONE first splitting along the axis of Law & Chaos, and then the remaining being (in our universe) splitting along the divine feminine (Estelar), and the Divine Masculine (Primordial). Basically, change vs stasis (both are necessary for universe to 'live').
There is also the option that Shar and Selune as GODS are some kind of "primordial" mixed with "a soul". Thus, maybe, like Mystra who is an ascended mortal, perhaps Shar and Selune have also over time had to use a willing mortal soul in order to perform their "godly" interactions. Maybe the idea that they are the first gods/estelar is a bit of a lie. Not sure I like the idea, but it could have some traction. In fact, this might explain the idea that came forth that Sehanine is an aspect. The same might be said for Nanna-Sin, Eilistraee (sp?), and even such beings as Lurue which are seen as her "children". This would of course mean that Shar and Selune are themselves some kind of ascended mortals and there's some kind of primordial force of the "light in darkness" and "darkness" that is in work with them. In this, I would stress too that ascended mortals could be archfey and other powerful beings of shadow, etc...
Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that all gods must be this... just saying that these two would seem to fit this mold based on what we know. I'd also say that perhaps the earthmother concept, sun concept, etc... may also be something similar.
Unfortunately, if you read ZeromaruX's most excellent history of the Nentir Vale (the first HUGE half of which is all 'universal {D&D} cosmology), Shar, Selūne, and Mystra get nary a mention. Nada. nothing. ZERO. Its as if they were never around 'in the beginning'.
Yet Bane, Corellon, and Moradin all are. So is the Raven Queen, which makes no sense at all (she became a god by stealing power... from a being that didn't even exist yet?) 
This is why I think some of these names and beings are not what we think they are. For example, the Raven Queen obviously had to become THE RAVEN QUEEN at a much later date, so the person metioned in the proto-histories (there wasn't even a world yet!) would have to be whatever she was before she became tRQ (which a few of us have guessed may be Kiaransalee). Since WotC doesn't want to give away some its deeper secrets (and they shouldn't), they have to use the name she is known by now, even though using the name in that antideluvian context is an anachronism. It would be a bit clunky to repeatedly have to say, "the God now known as the Raven Queen" over and over again. Consider it more of an 'editing' thing than a lore thing. Its like when I am reading the GHotR and they refer to a place by their country name, thousands of years before the country (or regional name) would have existed. The same mountain range may have had a hundred different names in 30K+ years, but for simplicity sake they'll just refer to it by the name we know.
Which may seem like I just digressed badly down a side-path (as I am wont to do), but actually, this was my whole point. I think Shar, Selūne, and maybe even Mystryl (although we KNOW she was late to the party) were there, at the beginning... but were operating under different, non-FR names. The Seldarine are specifically mentioned dozens of times, so we know Sehanine was present... that means Selūne IS there. She's just going by her older name, is all. That means Shar was around... but Selūne/Sehanine may have not yet 'gone off her rocker', so she may still be JUST ONE PERSON in the proto-myths. The story of her splitting into 'two sisters' is FR-specific, and probably pertains to aspects (although I think the Shar persona has separated out of Sehanine so many times in so many spheres that she is now an archtype unto herself). Think of it like a computer virus - once one 'moon goddess' became infected, it passed it along through its uplink to the archtype, and outward into the other spheres. The great god Norton hadn't invented the anti(god)virus yet. 
Mystra/Mystryl is much harder to reconcile on a multispheric basis. Not sure who/what she would be as an archtype. I do think Wee Jas is just a different aspect of her, though. Perhaps there is some sort of 'Hecate' archtype that's never mentioned - some goddess who applied creativity to a ritualization of magic (thus giving us the very first bits of Vancian/Weave magic). In fact, now that I am putting some thought to this, that may have been Ioun. Hecate is probably just another aspect of her. She'd be like the Bill Gates of the magical world - she wrote the first interface. Before that the gods had to 'code' in assembler (Binary).
Unfortunately, she was an original (Estelar) god as well, so its very hard to reconcile that to the myths concerning Mystryl's creation here in Realmspace (of course, myths are just that - MYTHS). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 22:28:56
Didn't Markustay had a theory for this? Like, all the gods are in fact architypes and their current forms just lesser embodiments powering mortal vessels or manifesting on their own in the mortal realm? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 22:12:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the 'Magical Quicksilver' (Moonsilver) is Silver Fire in a physical form. So yeah, Kukul being the pool also works.
On the other hand, reading the myths right now, I think Qotal is a better choice for Selūne, and then Shar would be Zaltec (although connecting Zaltec to Zehir/set would be interesting as well). Of course, the whole good god/bad god thing plays out MANY times in mythology (warring siblings, etc.) It doesn't ALWAYS have to be Shar & Selūne. Even in my own Proto-cosmology I have it where there were at least three sets of twins that had major ramifications on the Fey. Come to think of it... hmmmm... Shar & Selūn as archfey... I have to mull that one over. It might have some traction. Then again, I already have t where both go back to something much more primal (the 'duality' of the universe - everything has its equal opposite. This stems from THE ONE first splitting along the axis of Law & Chaos, and then the remaining being (in our universe) splitting along the divine feminine (Estelar), and the Divine Masculine (Primordial). Basically, change vs stasis (both are necessary for universe to 'live').
There is also the option that Shar and Selune as GODS are some kind of "primordial" mixed with "a soul". Thus, maybe, like Mystra who is an ascended mortal, perhaps Shar and Selune have also over time had to use a willing mortal soul in order to perform their "godly" interactions. Maybe the idea that they are the first gods/estelar is a bit of a lie. Not sure I like the idea, but it could have some traction. In fact, this might explain the idea that came forth that Sehanine is an aspect. The same might be said for Nanna-Sin, Eilistraee (sp?), and even such beings as Lurue which are seen as her "children". This would of course mean that Shar and Selune are themselves some kind of ascended mortals and there's some kind of primordial force of the "light in darkness" and "darkness" that is in work with them. In this, I would stress too that ascended mortals could be archfey and other powerful beings of shadow, etc...
Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that all gods must be this... just saying that these two would seem to fit this mold based on what we know. I'd also say that perhaps the earthmother concept, sun concept, etc... may also be something similar. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 21:47:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and I'd be intrigued to hear your ideas of Leira as ascended mortal theories. At one point, I had this idea that the mortal that became Mystra when Mystryl died had a twin. Of course, there's also the whole Leira/Ariel/Midnight things.
I honestly don't have much beyond what I posted earlier; it just occurred to me that if the rest were former mortals, maybe it was an across-the-board thing.
The one possibility I did have in mind, though, was that when Cyric and Mask killed Leira, maybe they only killed the divine part of her -- part of her consciousness escaped and took mortal form. This would be different from whatever her original mortal form was, and would have a different name -- in essence, she reincarnated herself as a mortal.
Going that way, we can have the former Leira still around, in some mortal form. The deity Leira was slain, and this new version is not calling him-/herself Leira and is a mortal -- so Ao isn't lying when he says Leira was slain. She did die, and he doesn't pay attention to mortals, so from his perspective, she is dead.
As I said, this keeps a version of her around, but also keeps canon intact: She is dead, as Ao said, so we don't have to go to Madcoil-lengths to explain why he would be lying -- but to quote Miracle Max, she's only mostly dead.
Mortaleira would be keeping a low profile, perhaps working on a decades- or centuries-long plan to get her divinity back. Or maybe she's like Crown-Myrkul and is happy working against Cyric and Mask, without worrying about Ao looking over her shoulder.
Alternatively, she could have done the same thing as Crown-Myrkul, and picked an artifact as the receptacle for her consciousness, and is working towards whatever goal from there.
Now, other caveats to my musings: I think the Leira/Ariel thing is pure coincidence. Ariel is not an uncommon name; in fact, I think it's overused, in fantasy. Plus, that would be some serious foreshadowing, and TSR was not that good at planning things that far out.
Also, I think that all we need is Mystra, and none of the rest. To me, they're all redundant. I don't see why specific flavors of magic need separate deities when there is a deity of all magic. It'd be like having a god of backstabs and a god of garrotes, both in service to the god of assassins.
Lastly, possibly because I think she's redundant, I've never understood the fascination with Leira.
Part of why I have never been bothered by the ToT is because I didn't like Bhaal, Leira, or the divine version of Myrkul.
Of course, none of that stops me from engaging in related thought exercises. 
Understood, and I like the servant gods of magic to limit Mystra's personal control of all magic. Of course, I believe in the concept that Mystra would have to get the buy in of her servants and can't just override them on how certain magics work (and vice versa). The sub gods of magic become a check and balance.
I originally wasn't big on Leira, but over time she's grown on me. I actually don't see her and Mask as enemies. In fact, F&A lists the two as allies. In fact, her only two allies are Mask and Azuth. This is why I think she and Mask were pulling a long con on Cyric (and I know you've heard my idea that she was the Cyrinishad and she's infected/riding in Cyric up until the spellplague).
By the way, your concept of "when she died her mortal body and her were separated" is something that I'm actually looking at with Mystra. However, delving it more... hmmm, here's an idea. If Cyric kills "God" Mystra releasing mortal "Midnight"... but "God" Cyric has "mental" Leira riding in him... mortal "Midnight" can then become shell for "mental" Leira creating weakened avatar of Leira that hides from Cyric. Cyric rushes to escape. If we then have dweomerheart getting shifted to Abeir (hmm, is Savras driving somehow... his multi-sight seeing into other dimensions?) because he foresaw this happening.... we can have the two magic gods that I want in Abeir.
I think, though, that there's always a mortal proto-Mystra waiting in the wings, in case the goddess is killed. That's been the case for Mystryl to Mystra 1, and Mystra 1 to Mystra 2.
And the Chosen are Mystra's limiting factors. Self-ascended mortals should not be used in such a factor, in my opinion, since it relies on one to come along, and we've also seen that they don't always have any interest at all in Mystra or in serving anything other than themselves. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 21:39:29
I think the 'Magical Quicksilver' (Moonsilver) is Silver Fire in a physical form. So yeah, Kukul being the pool also works.
On the other hand, reading the myths right now, I think Qotal is a better choice for Selūne, and then Shar would be Zaltec (although connecting Zaltec to Zehir/set would be interesting as well). Of course, the whole good god/bad god thing plays out MANY times in mythology (warring siblings, etc.) It doesn't ALWAYS have to be Shar & Selūne. Even in my own Proto-cosmology I have it where there were at least three sets of twins that had major ramifications on the Fey. Come to think of it... hmmmm... Shar & Selūn as archfey... I have to mull that one over. It might have some traction. Then again, I already have t where both go back to something much more primal (the 'duality' of the universe - everything has its equal opposite. This stems from THE ONE first splitting along the axis of Law & Chaos, and then the remaining being (in our universe) splitting along the divine feminine (Estelar), and the Divine Masculine (Primordial). Basically, change vs stasis (both are necessary for universe to 'live'). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 21:29:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and I'd be intrigued to hear your ideas of Leira as ascended mortal theories. At one point, I had this idea that the mortal that became Mystra when Mystryl died had a twin. Of course, there's also the whole Leira/Ariel/Midnight things.
I honestly don't have much beyond what I posted earlier; it just occurred to me that if the rest were former mortals, maybe it was an across-the-board thing.
The one possibility I did have in mind, though, was that when Cyric and Mask killed Leira, maybe they only killed the divine part of her -- part of her consciousness escaped and took mortal form. This would be different from whatever her original mortal form was, and would have a different name -- in essence, she reincarnated herself as a mortal.
Going that way, we can have the former Leira still around, in some mortal form. The deity Leira was slain, and this new version is not calling him-/herself Leira and is a mortal -- so Ao isn't lying when he says Leira was slain. She did die, and he doesn't pay attention to mortals, so from his perspective, she is dead.
As I said, this keeps a version of her around, but also keeps canon intact: She is dead, as Ao said, so we don't have to go to Madcoil-lengths to explain why he would be lying -- but to quote Miracle Max, she's only mostly dead.
Mortaleira would be keeping a low profile, perhaps working on a decades- or centuries-long plan to get her divinity back. Or maybe she's like Crown-Myrkul and is happy working against Cyric and Mask, without worrying about Ao looking over her shoulder.
Alternatively, she could have done the same thing as Crown-Myrkul, and picked an artifact as the receptacle for her consciousness, and is working towards whatever goal from there.
Now, other caveats to my musings: I think the Leira/Ariel thing is pure coincidence. Ariel is not an uncommon name; in fact, I think it's overused, in fantasy. Plus, that would be some serious foreshadowing, and TSR was not that good at planning things that far out.
Also, I think that all we need is Mystra, and none of the rest. To me, they're all redundant. I don't see why specific flavors of magic need separate deities when there is a deity of all magic. It'd be like having a god of backstabs and a god of garrotes, both in service to the god of assassins.
Lastly, possibly because I think she's redundant, I've never understood the fascination with Leira.
Part of why I have never been bothered by the ToT is because I didn't like Bhaal, Leira, or the divine version of Myrkul.
Of course, none of that stops me from engaging in related thought exercises.
Understood, and I like the servant gods of magic to limit Mystra's personal control of all magic. Of course, I believe in the concept that Mystra would have to get the buy in of her servants and can't just override them on how certain magics work (and vice versa). The sub gods of magic become a check and balance.
I originally wasn't big on Leira, but over time she's grown on me. I actually don't see her and Mask as enemies. In fact, F&A lists the two as allies. In fact, her only two allies are Mask and Azuth. This is why I think she and Mask were pulling a long con on Cyric (and I know you've heard my idea that she was the Cyrinishad and she's infected/riding in Cyric up until the spellplague).
By the way, your concept of "when she died her mortal body and her were separated" is something that I'm actually looking at with Mystra. However, delving it more... hmmm, here's an idea. If Cyric kills "God" Mystra releasing mortal "Midnight"... but "God" Cyric has "mental" Leira riding in him... mortal "Midnight" can then become shell for "mental" Leira creating weakened avatar of Leira that hides from Cyric. Cyric rushes to escape. If we then have dweomerheart getting shifted to Abeir (hmm, is Savras driving somehow... his multi-sight seeing into other dimensions?) because he foresaw this happening.... we can have the two magic gods that I want in Abeir. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 15:57:26
Mayan cenotes is often seen as gateways to heaven, the story is full of classical mythological signs; Volcano (fire, Mountains; air), lake (water, Gateways in shamanistic lore, or many Native American/Siberian), morning (between light and darkness), reminds of a "native vision quest", etc.
My thought: if it's impossible to enter the lake, it's interesting, since the mythological use of pools of water as gateways, even used in Planescape. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 15:21:57
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We can have the best of all worlds - what if Maztica was a primordial? Nothing says she couldn't have been. I think the lore says she 'up and left', but what if she didn't? What is she was killed or became trapped there, and the Mazticans just assumed she had left them?
And what if her natural form was that of Quicksilver? What if Maztica was an aspect of the earthmother (Chantea is another aspect), and all of those early (Toril-specific) gods had connections to 'silver fire' (Moon Energy)? That could be a puddle of 'pure Lurue' right there (in much the same way you can take arcane magic's opposite - Shadowmagic - and give it physical form: Raw magic). Raw Magic was also like quicksilver, but it was black, IIRC (Positive and Negative energies here - Selūne & Shar, etc).
So what if Maztica was Lurue, which is why we don't see/hear much about her anymore? She would have been like a 'primordial of magic' (more like a Primal Power, but I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is there). She may have been killed/trapped in the Godswar, and thats her physical form right there. Now she only exists as a disembodied spirit (not that gods, etc., need bodies anyway). Actually, i think Primordials WOULD need physical forms - I said that in the other threads. Gods are energy, and primordials are matter. But perhaps that thing right there (The Sunstone-pool) is the physical manifestaton of magic (silver fire). Hmmmm... does that make 'Raw Magic' the body of Shar?
In the lore, Maztica was killed by her son Zaltec with a Maca (wood sword with obsidian edges) with a killing edge of darkness. However, I do already assume that they were all primordials, not only because most were elemental beings in one form or another (earth, air, fire, water, wood(plants)). I say this because GHotR hints heavily that Ubtao is Qotal. Of course, Ubtao COULD instead be Kukul (Qotal's father), but I only say that because of real world god names (i.e. Kukulkan and Quetzalcoatl are often described similar in our world...) however, Kukul is more often than not described as a "manlike" shaped being of huge size and made of gold.
That being said, Maztica was the goddess of Mountains, soil, and "silver". So, she was of the earth. Her husband Kukul was "stars, meteors, and gold", and he was "shattered" at the death of his wife. That being said, it wouldn't be hard to spin Maztica as a daughter of the moon (or an aspect of Selune spun off) and Kukul as the shattered remnants of a second moon.... or Kukul as a male aspect of Selune in love with Maztica (and thus the tears of Selune are actually "tears" because Kukul was shattered when Maztica was killed).
Actually, strangely, I'm falling in love with that last statement.... Kukul was Selune... Kukul "shattered" when Maztica died. Maztica died when Zaltec, wielding a weapon of darkness, killed her. It would be almost as if Zaltec were one of the primordials freed by the batrachi just before the sundering of the worlds. Just prior to this occurring, Zaltec had introduced hishna magic to the world which produced hatred and strife (mirrored in the Estelar/Dawn Titan War?), so he easily could have been one put away. This strife was ended when Maztica gave her son Qotal pluma magic, which was a magic of peace. So, if Qotal is Ubtao... we now would have the point at which Ubtao "betrayed" the other primordials. So, Zaltec is freed, kills Maztica (possibly "shattering" her into different aspects that later become Earthmother, Chauntea, Othea, Bhalla... or perhaps a better analogy would be untwining the linkage between existing aspects).... then a moon shatters and Kukul disappears (sent to Abeir?). Millenia later, the remnants of Kukul appear in Toril's skies again as the tears of selune during a transfer between abeir and Toril (for me, this would be when Osse and possibly portions of Zakhara "appear" on Toril's southern region).
He was also specifically noted as the god who was the creator of man. I wouldn't have a problem with that volcano and the possibly mercury/quicksilver involved being the body of Maztica |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 13:04:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Could just be a magical rock surrounded by mercury...
-Could just be a plain rock, and the mercury fumes produce "visions". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 04:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and I'd be intrigued to hear your ideas of Leira as ascended mortal theories. At one point, I had this idea that the mortal that became Mystra when Mystryl died had a twin. Of course, there's also the whole Leira/Ariel/Midnight things.
I honestly don't have much beyond what I posted earlier; it just occurred to me that if the rest were former mortals, maybe it was an across-the-board thing.
The one possibility I did have in mind, though, was that when Cyric and Mask killed Leira, maybe they only killed the divine part of her -- part of her consciousness escaped and took mortal form. This would be different from whatever her original mortal form was, and would have a different name -- in essence, she reincarnated herself as a mortal.
Going that way, we can have the former Leira still around, in some mortal form. The deity Leira was slain, and this new version is not calling him-/herself Leira and is a mortal -- so Ao isn't lying when he says Leira was slain. She did die, and he doesn't pay attention to mortals, so from his perspective, she is dead.
As I said, this keeps a version of her around, but also keeps canon intact: She is dead, as Ao said, so we don't have to go to Madcoil-lengths to explain why he would be lying -- but to quote Miracle Max, she's only mostly dead.
Mortaleira would be keeping a low profile, perhaps working on a decades- or centuries-long plan to get her divinity back. Or maybe she's like Crown-Myrkul and is happy working against Cyric and Mask, without worrying about Ao looking over her shoulder.
Alternatively, she could have done the same thing as Crown-Myrkul, and picked an artifact as the receptacle for her consciousness, and is working towards whatever goal from there.
Now, other caveats to my musings: I think the Leira/Ariel thing is pure coincidence. Ariel is not an uncommon name; in fact, I think it's overused, in fantasy. Plus, that would be some serious foreshadowing, and TSR was not that good at planning things that far out.
Also, I think that all we need is Mystra, and none of the rest. To me, they're all redundant. I don't see why specific flavors of magic need separate deities when there is a deity of all magic. It'd be like having a god of backstabs and a god of garrotes, both in service to the god of assassins.
Lastly, possibly because I think she's redundant, I've never understood the fascination with Leira.
Part of why I have never been bothered by the ToT is because I didn't like Bhaal, Leira, or the divine version of Myrkul.
Of course, none of that stops me from engaging in related thought exercises. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 03:38:26
We can have the best of all worlds - what if Maztica was a primordial? Nothing says she couldn't have been. I think the lore says she 'up and left', but what if she didn't? What is she was killed or became trapped there, and the Mazticans just assumed she had left them?
And what if her natural form was that of Quicksilver? What if Maztica was an aspect of the earthmother (Chantea is another aspect), and all of those early (Toril-specific) gods had connections to 'silver fire' (Moon Energy)? That could be a puddle of 'pure Lurue' right there (in much the same way you can take arcane magic's opposite - Shadowmagic - and give it physical form: Raw magic). Raw Magic was also like quicksilver, but it was black, IIRC (Positive and Negative energies here - Selūne & Shar, etc).
So what if Maztica was Lurue, which is why we don't see/hear much about her anymore? She would have been like a 'primordial of magic' (more like a Primal Power, but I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is there). She may have been killed/trapped in the Godswar, and thats her physical form right there. Now she only exists as a disembodied spirit (not that gods, etc., need bodies anyway). Actually, i think Primordials WOULD need physical forms - I said that in the other threads. Gods are energy, and primordials are matter. But perhaps that thing right there (The Sunstone-pool) is the physical manifestaton of magic (silver fire). Hmmmm... does that make 'Raw Magic' the body of Shar? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 21:28:39
yep, mercury/quicksilver was what I was hinting at with the "in liquid form when not in the vacuum of space". Having it somehow be related to a primordial with some kind of "reflective" or "mirror" linkage might be one way to use it. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 21:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Is there even a stone at the Sunstone? I think its just the lake of silver in the volcano caldera.
Im saying that there may be a stone that oozes the liquid like Karsus.
Was it Markustay that mentioned that? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 21:16:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My first thoughts regarding this were that it was an "avatar" of sorts of Savras. In fact, that was one of the ways I intended to use it. Given its role as a kind of divination source, it would fit. Basically, I was thinking something along the lines of some kind of planetary impact occurred, created a volcano, and the "metallic surface" is in fact some kind of dead primordial that was "melted" or is naturally in liquid form when not in the vacuum of space. Along came Savras centuries ago to study the area (possibly right after the crash), and he somehow bonded with this metal used its power to become a deity. I was actually planning to use this with my idea of the United Tharchs of Toril for how Savras was still relatively strong in Abeir.
Oh, and the reason why the Mazticans don't know of Savras would simply point back to Azuth and his entrapping of Savras for centuries. Savras may have been able to allow people to use this site and have continued to draw divine power from those who use it, even if they didn't know it.... but it would be a rare thing.
I'd make it a fallen deity; perhaps an early, forgotten power of divination. This shard of godstuff retained a spark of divinity; Savras was able to seize that for his own rise to godhood.
...Which gets me to thinking. We've got a deity of magic, a deity of spellcasters, a deity of necromancy, a deity of divination, and a deity of illusion... It's always bugged me that we have a deity of magic, and then lesser deities of some specific flavors of magic, but not other flavors. However, Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon were all formerly mortal spellcasters who ascended to godhood...
So maybe that's why some flavors of magic have deities and others don't: because former practitioners of those specific flavors (with Azuth having been a generalist mage) rose to godhood, and no one has done so for the other flavors.
And what's the implication of all of this? That Leira, too, was a mortal who ascended to divinity! And perhaps its just me, but I'm thinking making her an ascended mortal opens up some interesting possibilities...
It also means that Karsus could have succeeded if he'd chosen to become a lesser power, instead of aiming at the top.
And speaking of Karsus, think of the Karsestone: a chunk of a former deity with liquid constantly pouring out of it...
Yeah, that's why I'm actually introducing some other deities in service to the goddess of magic. For instance, Deneir will not JUST be a servant to Oghma, he'll also be a god of written and runic magics. I plan on bringing back Karsus as a god of transmutation. Auppenser is another servant, but of psionics... and he's becoming a god of enchantment (mind control) magic. Velsharoon will also possibly take on conjuration. The Red Knight may become a goddess of abjuration magic and spell strategy. This would cover abjuration, divination, illusion, enchantment, transmutation, necromancy, conjuration...... so the only thing left would be evocation, and there's lots of options there (Talos tried to take that once as Malyk).
Oh, and I'd be intrigued to hear your ideas of Leira as ascended mortal theories. At one point, I had this idea that the mortal that became Mystra when Mystryl died had a twin. Of course, there's also the whole Leira/Ariel/Midnight things. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 21:06:00
Is there even a stone at the Sunstone? I think its just the lake of silver in the volcano caldera. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 19:25:59
Could just be a magical rock surrounded by mercury... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 19:19:04
I guess the geographical location is key since you can place mazticas rough geographic location from the myths. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 18:53:06
What do you think the pure of heart requirement stems from? Does this seem out of character if it is a primordial?
Thats kind of why I was leaning toward it being Mazticas blood after her son Zaltec lopped her head off. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 17:57:14
I do like the idea of it being a melted primordial, although 'melted' might not be the right word for it. It could have been composed of Quicksilver.
So imagine it was made out of some sort of 'Cosmic Quicksilver', thats also somewhat poisonous to humans, but instead it makes you have hallucinations (and death, if over-exposed).
Oh, and it isn't dead - its comatose. Another primordial who's 'sentience' is being held elsewhere (maybe in the Abeir version of Maztica... so in Laearkond (Returned Abeir)? Come to think of it, this may be why we have evidence of both primordials 'falling to earth', and others having been 'there the whole time'. Maybe the mind and bodies were separated from many of them (and this was done to a couple in canon, IIRC), and when the two worlds are coterminous they have a chance to reunite and break free. Maye thats what all those nation-shattering explosions were about.
So we can theorize that that 'Bloodstone' was from the body of Telos, and its 'mind' - which was trapped in Abeir's 'outer space' - came crashing down to Toril (in Vaasa) when the Spellplague struck. However, the centuries of mining Bloodstone has greatly weakened it, as well as the current mining of Feliron (which only {re}gained its qualities when the two halves were joined). Thus, it is unable to rouse itself... for now.
Which means good ol' Sunstone may have gotten up and walked away during the spellplague (but it may have happened while Maztica was in Abeir, so we have no knowledge of that). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 17:42:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My first thoughts regarding this were that it was an "avatar" of sorts of Savras. In fact, that was one of the ways I intended to use it. Given its role as a kind of divination source, it would fit. Basically, I was thinking something along the lines of some kind of planetary impact occurred, created a volcano, and the "metallic surface" is in fact some kind of dead primordial that was "melted" or is naturally in liquid form when not in the vacuum of space. Along came Savras centuries ago to study the area (possibly right after the crash), and he somehow bonded with this metal used its power to become a deity. I was actually planning to use this with my idea of the United Tharchs of Toril for how Savras was still relatively strong in Abeir.
Oh, and the reason why the Mazticans don't know of Savras would simply point back to Azuth and his entrapping of Savras for centuries. Savras may have been able to allow people to use this site and have continued to draw divine power from those who use it, even if they didn't know it.... but it would be a rare thing.
I'd make it a fallen deity; perhaps an early, forgotten power of divination. This shard of godstuff retained a spark of divinity; Savras was able to seize that for his own rise to godhood.
...Which gets me to thinking. We've got a deity of magic, a deity of spellcasters, a deity of necromancy, a deity of divination, and a deity of illusion... It's always bugged me that we have a deity of magic, and then lesser deities of some specific flavors of magic, but not other flavors. However, Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon were all formerly mortal spellcasters who ascended to godhood...
So maybe that's why some flavors of magic have deities and others don't: because former practitioners of those specific flavors (with Azuth having been a generalist mage) rose to godhood, and no one has done so for the other flavors.
And what's the implication of all of this? That Leira, too, was a mortal who ascended to divinity! And perhaps its just me, but I'm thinking making her an ascended mortal opens up some interesting possibilities...
It also means that Karsus could have succeeded if he'd chosen to become a lesser power, instead of aiming at the top.
And speaking of Karsus, think of the Karsestone: a chunk of a former deity with liquid constantly pouring out of it... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 15:08:21
My first thoughts regarding this were that it was an "avatar" of sorts of Savras. In fact, that was one of the ways I intended to use it. Given its role as a kind of divination source, it would fit. Basically, I was thinking something along the lines of some kind of planetary impact occurred, created a volcano, and the "metallic surface" is in fact some kind of dead primordial that was "melted" or is naturally in liquid form when not in the vacuum of space. Along came Savras centuries ago to study the area (possibly right after the crash), and he somehow bonded with this metal used its power to become a deity. I was actually planning to use this with my idea of the United Tharchs of Toril for how Savras was still relatively strong in Abeir.
Oh, and the reason why the Mazticans don't know of Savras would simply point back to Azuth and his entrapping of Savras for centuries. Savras may have been able to allow people to use this site and have continued to draw divine power from those who use it, even if they didn't know it.... but it would be a rare thing. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 17:44:44
It is a little bit like a Inca ritual which involved ingesting psychodelic soup (forget the name but starts with an A) as dawn broke over the mountains so they would have a vision.... basically the Incan version of eating shrooms then looking at headlights :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 17:00:26
The closest I can relate it is in Native American 'Vision Quests', and the silver pool just takes the place of the spirit animal. Since I've found nearly everything in the Maztica lore is based upon something else (mostly RW history, but there are some myths and even an old cartoon rolled into there), I would assume this is something the author wanted to put in as a nod to something else. Lord knows what, though. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 15:57:22
-Are there any similar Mesoamerican myths? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 01:06:57
Gods blood was was in the article about Dead Gods in Dragon Mag. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 21:59:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dawn angle implies a connection to Lathander, but liquid silver, on the other hand, invokes Selūne.
Maybe the site has something to do with the both of them? Maybe they had a meeting/tryst here, or maybe a long-forgotten demipower that served both of them lies here, with this site being all that's left of them.
Or maybe it was some nastybad that both of them opposed, and the their combined power destroyed the nastybad and left only that lingering effect.
(Or, of course, substitute the relevant local powers. I've avoided everything Maztica-related)
Interesting. I didn't think to connect it to the Faerunian deities.
As really an unknown silvery liquid, perhaps it is the blood of a deity. Possibly Maztica herself when she was slain by her son Zaltec? Since you mention Lathander (a sun related deity), he could be replaced with Kukul who is also rumored to be dead (he "left the world")
I have to reread up on godsblood from, I believe, the Dead Gods supplement and other works on the Astral Plane. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Dec 2017 : 21:30:50
The dawn angle implies a connection to Lathander, but liquid silver, on the other hand, invokes Selūne.
Maybe the site has something to do with the both of them? Maybe they had a meeting/tryst here, or maybe a long-forgotten demipower that served both of them lies here, with this site being all that's left of them.
Or maybe it was some nastybad that both of them opposed, and the their combined power destroyed the nastybad and left only that lingering effect.
(Or, of course, substitute the relevant local powers. I've avoided everything Maztica-related) |
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