| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 14:54:07
So, in Mulhorand there's the "statues-that-walk" which are believed to be from an ancient "stone giant" civilization from "before the lizard folk".were in the region. I read that as there was a stone giant civilization in the old empires region, specifically Mulhorand, and they were eventually replaced by the Sarrukh from beneath Thay. When did this happen? Not important right now I don't think.
Skip forward to 1356 DR. Derlaunt (a god king of Mulhorand, but not an incarnation... so of the royal family, and thus "god-blooded", and a cousin to Tholaunt, a current incarnation of Thoth... of house Tholaunt).... screws up a ritual that awakens all these statues that walk at once. The statues begin wandering all throughout the old empires randomly doing "stuff" that makes no sense to anyone. How can we use this, because I don't think anything was ever officially done with this.
So, I know my first thoughts were that "stone giants" came after the sarrukh. Then I thought to myself.... what if these didn't? Abeir has a rather strange set of "stone giants" who are very rocky skinned and who are involved with dream magic. We also have in the Black Ash Plains a different kind of "stone giant" called "ash giants". What if these statues-that-walk actually come from prior to the sundering? What if Derlaunt (the mulhorandi wizard who woke them by flubbing a ritual) was tricked by Grumbar somehow and this whole thing of the statues walking around had something to do with the transfer to Abeir. Maybe somehow they were setting "cornerstones" for the transfer and Grumbar knew it was coming. Maybe even Derlaunt is a blood of Geb (maybe his mother was of the family of Geb and his father was of the family of Thoth), and Grumbar needed someone of divine blood of a power of earth to enact the statues.
Maybe the "stone giants" of this region disappeared to Abeir long ago just like how the Mulhorandi did. In fact, there may have been multiple "types" of stone giants (some looking literally like stone, some like the ash giants). Some may have remained (just like how some of the Mulhorandi did) and moved south to become the ash giants. Perhaps even the "statues-that-walk" are in fact actually some of these stone giants and not statues, and they were awakened from their sleep (so they aren't constructs at all).
Just a thought, as I don't think anything was ever officially done. It could be useful... maybe not.... what do you think?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 03:49:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And when I just went to go double-check that term and looked up Golarion Giants, I found they had their own pantheon there, and low and behold, who should be the only one they have in-common with D&D? My old friend Kostchtchie! 
He's actually a Russian nastybad. Wikipedia entry on Koschei the Deathless. Like Baba Yaga, I've seen him used in a variety of ways, in various bits of fantasy fiction and RPGs. (Vampire The Masquerade Baba Yaga was freaking scary!) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 03:19:57
While looking around at giant-lore recently, I noticed that Golarion/Pathfinder has two tiers of giants as well (they may have even more - I wouldn't know). There are the normal. 'easy to kill for low-levs' kind, and then there is the Jotunblood variety. Anyway, its like like what I do with 'terrestrial' and 'planer' varieties of giants (and just about everything else).
And when I just went to go double-check that term and looked up Golarion Giants, I found they had their own pantheon there, and low and behold, who should be the only one they have in-common with D&D? My old friend Kostchtchie!
They also have lore on his 'ascension', which is kinda cool, because we never had any, but its tied directly to the Golarion setting. But wait! He was an Iobaran! And our very own Steven Schend wrote-up Iobaria! Cross-platform panspermia? 
Anyhow, the completist in me wants to work the Golarion giant gods into everything as well. Obviously, like with our own 'Giantish Patrons', most of them could easily be world-specific powers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 02:55:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, Eldritch Giants ARE exactly what I pictured them to be. Not sure if this stems from my having read the entry (in 3e) years ago, or what.
Still, I wouldn't separate Eldritch Giants from Eldritch Titans - I would just consider one an 'evolved' form (like how 4e had those tiers). Maybe the Eldritch titans are the E.Giant equivalent of 'exarchs' (demigods).
Then, later in the Prime Material, these things became 'stuck', and we wound up with giant races, when they were just meant to be power tiers and templates.
Actually, I'm thinking something more along the lines of Eldritch Titans are "the old ones" and the giants are the "young ones". In 4e they also made them a lot simpler rulewise (which they did with most creatures). I'd actually prefer to throw in some 2e rules for these guys like dragons had.... where as they age they grow more powerful, and each has a unique set of spells that they learn (maybe a little more structured than 2e dragons by setting a number and levels). To make it simple, I'd put just 3 tiers (those under 1000 years old, those between 1000 and 2000 years old, and then as Titans when they reach 2000 years old). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 17:36:10
So, Eldritch Giants ARE exactly what I pictured them to be. Not sure if this stems from my having read the entry (in 3e) years ago, or what.
Still, I wouldn't separate Eldritch Giants from Eldritch Titans - I would just consider one an 'evolved' form (like how 4e had those tiers). Maybe the Eldritch titans are the E.Giant equivalent of 'exarchs' (demigods).
Then, later in the Prime Material, these things became 'stuck', and we wound up with giant races, when they were just meant to be power tiers and templates. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 12:59:59
Hey, since I kind of sidetracked my own topic (only kinda, since I'm still seeing the eldritch giants now as the ones that made the statues that walk) into discussing the nature of giants. We also got on a discussion of giants and the feywild, etc... Well, yesterday when I was making that list, I noted from the fiend folio a race of Ysgardian trolls kind of like the trolls we've actually heard about in lore and from Tolkien. They're kind of big, and the sun turns them to stone. Being that I've actually been watching Netflix's trollhunters series (yeah, I'm a big kid in my 40's), I like the concept, if not the artwork used to describe it as much in D&D (the trollhunters series "look" however... I much like). I then came to realize that these fensir actually cross editions, but they've never really caught on. In fact, the 2nd edition version helps with the artwork issue in that it says "They range from hideously ugly, huge, and hulking to nearly human in size and appearance. ". Throw in that this trollhunters series also mentions the "impure" or "changelings" which are trolls that have magically been able to take on the identities of babies stolen, and while the babies never age in the "darklands" special place where they are kept (Shadowfell? Shadow Rift of Ravenloft, which specifically is noted as having time pass differently?) the trolls in human guise grow up and become spies in the mortal world. So, this could be used to explain the discrepancy of some of these Fensir being human sized and/or humanoid looking.
So, why do I say all of the above? Would it not be interesting to use this particular race of giants as inhabitants of the world prior to there being a sun? In fact, in hinting above a tie to the shadow rift, it occurs to me that I'd love to tie these beings and the Arak (shadow elves of ravenloft from the shadow rift) together.... but not as related. Perhaps both were enslaved (back when the Arak were still the "ellefolk") in the shadowfell long ago. In fact, I say that I wanted to put Arak (as Ellefolk) on the moon in place of elves.... I think now I also want to inhabit it with Fensir as well... but Fensir that look like the trolls in trollhunter with somewhat rocklike skin, petrified antlers, weird glowing gems in their flesh, etc... In fact, those weird stone giants from Erin's novel.... maybe some of these Fensir have developed magic which allows them to travel in sunlight on Abeir (maybe they have to wear some kind of "sunstone" or somesuch).
These two entries discuss them from the game standpoint. The pictures from the fiend folio suck.
http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstrousmanual/f/fensir.html
http://dungeonsdragons.wikia.com/wiki/Fensir
Also, this on the "changelings" is an interesting concept which somewhat explains what I said above
http://trollhunters.wikia.com/wiki/Changeling
SIDENOTE: As far as look goes, I'd say also to mix some of the various looks we have going for "trolls" in our modern society. So, actually having many of them with spiky "sprouts" of colorful hair, and all of them having very weird and differing skin colors. I'm thinking the "stony" skin nature present in the trollhunters series can be less pronounced in most, but with their bodies producing gems kind of in the way we might produce moles and birthmarks. I'd also say mixing this concept with the Marvel trolls of Asgard might also help.
I know this would heavily change the "D&D" version of these creatures, but honestly I don't think a lot of people used them. We also have this entry in the Fensir that they periodically produce an aberrant strain (the rakka), so perhaps like the Arak, they don't have necessarily just one "type" that they are.
SIDENOTE: apparently the trollhunters tv series on Netflix is getting really good ratings... when I went to a Wikipedia for it, I saw this. So, if you have the time, geek out and be a kid again.
In 2017, it received six Daytime Emmys, more than any other television program, animated or live action, that year.[18]
On January 30, 2017, Trollhunters writers Kevin & Dan Hageman stated that it is the most successful Netflix original show to date that is targeted at a younger audience.[19 |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 08:52:14
Yeah... not a fan of "Eldritch Giant" ah well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 13:43:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
were the eldritch giants in one of those high level campaign books like the leshay?
Monster Manual 3 from 3rd edition.
Also, in Monster Manual 2 for 4th edition, which matches up to what I've been supposing actually.... even to the part that they were more magical in the past. They also create two different versions... the eldritch giant and the eldritch titan.... but that seems to be a standard for all giants in 4e (not a bad standard).
ELDRITCH GIANTS COME FROM A DIFFERENT TIME—an earlier age when the primordials made the world. Although fashioned from fire, stone, and storm, the primordials' wondrous creation was heavily invested with magic, and the eldritch giants aided their primordial lords in the world's formation. Although their powers have ebbed since those days, eldritch giants remember their ancient mastery of magic and forever seek to regain it. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 02:10:26
were the eldritch giants in one of those high level campaign books like the leshay? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 01:10:12
I'm actually disregarding a lot of the giantcraft and Twilight Giants lore with my stuff now - there is just no easy (not dumb) way of rectifying it with the 'greater D&D' lore, and that's what we have to deal with now, in 5e. Not throwing it out whole-cloth, just ignoring what I have to, which mostly has to do with 'fathering' the giant races. Annam may have recreated them, using Othea (who herself may have been one of those Planer Giants/Celestial Titans grown to immense proportions).
As for Ulutiu, not sure. I suppose I could spin him as some sort of primal spirit, but he would probably work better as an archfey, for my stuff. After all, the giants hate the fey almost as much as the dragons. Hmmm... once again, typing in a thread made some bells go off in my head.
Elves and dragons tend to get along. We've even seen some evidence that female elves can even become dragons (and, I suppose, males as well - Song/Greyhawk dragons may just be a surviving remnant of this connection). maybe archfey took the shapes of dragons and mated with the proto-dragons, creating the modern dragons. So the dragons are 'beholden' to the Fey, but only the metallics adhere to this (the chromatics may be resentful, for the same reasons). So if Elves were responsible for dragons becoming more powerful, and thus being able to throw-off the yolk of the giants, this could be the plot-device I've been needing to connect more of this together.
And somehow, I need to link this to the illithids, and the Gith. Gith lay eggs, and Tiamat owed a favor to them. There is something there - hopefully will get the full story soon. I am really starting to see a lot of the 'bad guys' in D&D be formerly oppressed peoples. Tiamat resided in hell. Evil things 'go to hell' when they die. Gith (the dude) 'went missing' when he went to visit Tiamat in hell, and a lich-queen (an undead female) shows up and take his place... (switched places?) and becomes their new leader. There is something there. Damn - I haven't awaited a D&D sourcebook this eagerly in a LONG time.
But back to the Giants LOL. I'm still not seeing why we need to connect the statues to giants, other than they look like big stone giants, or to the Sarrukh, other than the fact that they were mentioned in the same sentence (and not even THEM - just one of their 'creations'). I mean, its fine to do so. Lord knows I connect tons of stuff together, but these things always just struck me as ancient automatons (and probably relics from the Imaskari days).
And just a point of contention - firbolgs CAN change size, and they can get as small as 7' (Tavis was about that height, normally).
So Celestial Titans (Jotuns) were the pre-Dawn war giants, and the ones that remained 'pure' became the Eldritch Giants. All others should be templates (elemental and/or energy), or some sort of local branch (Sphere-specific). There is also Athach, which they brought back for 3e, and Fhoimorien are huge, unlike Fomorians (those were the type we saw in Birthright/Cerillia, and also in 4e). Thus, I would imagine that the Fhoimorien are really corrupted 'first giants' (our Jotuns/Eldritch giants), whereas the much more common fomorians are the giantkin race, and each world may have its own, separate branch of that. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:21:57
@Markustay
Yeah, you've kind of got the idea I'm thinking with the eldritch giants and putting them on Abeir. We already have that the great batrachi leader died at the hand of a "titan thane", which can EITHER mean a dawn titan or there were other "giants" before Annam's brood. Personally, I like the idea that Annam/Ulutiu/Othea didn't birth ALL the giant races. I also like the idea that these early giants may have been allied with the Primordials/Dawn Titans. It also gives me a naturally magical race to stick on Abeir whose bones might be treasured by the local population there because their bones are imbued with magic (and who knows, an eldritch giant being so large, maybe its bones are bonded with metal for strength).
From the description of them, Eldritch giants are 25 feet tall and weigh 13000 pounds and can live more than 3000 years old. I'm going to present facts for other giant races in 3rd edition just to give comparison. Essentially most giants are half as tall, weigh MUCH less, and live nowhere near as long (these guys can live 5 times longer than storm giants). From Annam's Brood, Storm Giants come CLOSE but still aren't as powerful and true Titans are actually physically more powerful by just a bit. I would like to stick with "Titans" as a race by Annam, but that's purely to stick with Canon (and sidenote the 4e FRCG has Annam's Titans born prior to the first splitting of the world, so the titan Thane Omo IS likely a Titan). SIDENOTES: Forest, Fog, Shadow, and Mountain Giants would seem to fit Abeir as well.
Annam's Brood
Cloud Giant - 18 feet tall, 5000 lbs, up to 400 years
Fire Giant - 9 feet tall, 7000 lbs, up to 350 years
Frost Giant - 15 feet tall, 2800 lbs, up to 250 years
Hill Giant - 10-1/2 feet tall, 1100 lbs, up to 200 years
Stone Giant - 12 feet tall, 1500 lbs, up to 800 years
Storm Giant - 21 feet tall, 12000 lbs, up to 600 years SIDENOTE: SOME storm giants are violet skinned? Crossbreeding with eldritch giants?
Titan - 25 feet tall, 14000 lbs, unknown years SIDENOTE: Extraplanar because they fled to Arborea after Lanaxis committed treason
Other Giants
Ettin - 13 feet tall, 5200 lbs, up to 75 years
Forest giant - 18 feet tall, 3000 lbs, up to 200 years
Sun Giant - 16 feet tall, 7000 lbs, up to 400 years
Ocean Giant- 16 feet tall, 4000 lbs, up to 600 years
Mountain Giant- 40 feet tall, 50000 lbs, up to 100 years SIDENOTE: MUCH taller than any other giant, but with an extremely short lifespan in comparison. These would be like soldiers for eldritch giants.
Firbolg - 10 feet tall, 800 lbs, unknown years
Fomorian - no info given
Death Giant - 15 feet tall, 2000 lbs, unknown years and possibly their stealing of souls makes them immortal kinda?
Sand giant- 12 feet tall, 2000 lbs, up to 250 years
Fog giant - 24 feet tall, unknown weight, unknown years
Phaerlin giant - 20 feet tall, unknown weight, unknown years SIDENOTE: created race from stone giants, warped by magic
Cyclops - 12 feet tall, 1500 lbs, unknown years
Bog Giant - 10 feet tall, 600 lbs, unknown years
Shadow Giant - 20 feet tall, 4000 lbs, unknown years SIDENOTE: this could make for another great race for Abeir to have in abundance
c. –31500 DR - Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High One’s reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:14:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It was still a race of giants that created them. I'd probably stick with eldritch giants the more I've thought on it, and I'd have the eldritch giants being a race that predates Annam's giants. Being that the Mulhorandi people went to Abeir but not their cities, I'd pretty much probably say that these eldritch giants did the same thing. They were transferred to Abeir and their cities and constructs were left behind. This kind of makes what happened to the Mulhorandi "make sense" as well. Thus the "plague" that happened was another magical thing that happened (essentially the twinning of the worlds), and the people that found the things left behind simply assumed the people gone was because of a sudden death. Since that time, the eldritch giants on Abeir have lessened in magical power as a result of being in a world with no natural weave.
possible check... eldritch giants even now are known to live more than 3000 yearsI'm leaning towards them being from a race before the sarrukh (I can only think of one of any magical skill).
possible check... eldritch giants may have been more powerful long agoThe race was so powerful that they made these statues such that the sarrukh couldn't destroy them.
possible check... eldritch giants may have been powerful ritual usersRitual magic was used in their construction and programming (not vancian casting).
possible check... eldritch giants may have disappeared inexplicably to the people of FaerunThe creator race was killed by a series of plagues.
check The creator race was prideful.
possible check... eldritch giants are not documented as very well known on Toril, but they may be more common on AbeirNo known remains of the creator race culture exists
Maybe the statues that walk are not actually statues at all but instead are to Stone giants what the grandfather tree is to treants. Ancient rock beings - like half way between rock giant and galeb-dur... stone beings that sleep for a thousand years or so and only act when absolutely necessary OR compelled by powerful magic. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:10:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
No Lizardmen were created by the Sarrukh.
The sarrukh were "lizard folk"... that term is pretty generic... I'm really doubting when people were writing and translating ancient lore they had a monster manual and a picture book describing each race. Plus, over time as translations are made, things become unclear... etc...
I'd say they are more snake than lizard folk |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 20:06:54
Once upon a time i would have been all for clearing up inconsistencies, but in doing rewrites i find myself deliberately putting inconsistencies in. I know the truth beyond the conflict but the rumours are never meant to be taken literally.
So in not taking the rumours and mythology literally i have the giant empire after tearfall. The dragons evolve from eodraco to their current form (with magical help). Dragons destroy some giant kingdoms and the expanding great glacier does the rest.
No confusion or inconsistency.
Anything else of giant size is not related to giants (its just really big) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 19:50:23
I have been developing stuff for my homebrew world, and I use FR as a 'test bed' for a lot of the lore. Unfortunately, when it comes to the Giants in FR, their lore is confusing as hell. Its come to the point where I would actually LOVE a new Grand History of the Realms (a bigger, thicker book, with accurate illustrations! Oh, and put the genealogies in an online Web-Enhancement, please), but with guys like Ed, Eric, Krash, Steven Schend, Jeff Grubb, and a couple of others that have been seen around these halls lately rewriting {Gasp!} swaths of it to make it all coherent and COHESIVE. Maybe call it 'the true history' or some-such, and just say information in the past about the past was misinformation - that records of various races have always been tampered with. Something like that (make it an 'in game' explanation). If any setting can get away with that, ours can, because its always been written as a 'uncertain 3rd party' report. Oh, and no major attempts to 'stick to canon perfectly' - that gives us gawd-awful crap like double Oboulds and double Wulgreths. Just own up to mistakes and fix them - FR fans are too smart for such 'cheese'. Its game lore, not the damn Holy Bible (and even that's been re-written numerous times!)
ALL THAT BEING SAID, I use the Gloranthan Giants as a basis for my own. The giants of Runequest were of just one type, and they started out small and dumb (like ogres), and then as they grew and got older, they get larger and smarter (Hill giants, stone giants, Cloud and Storm giants, etc.). Now, the main difference between how I see the Gloranthan giants and my own is that the giants at some point were able to evolve along 'elemental paths', which is how we got things like Storm, fire, Frost, etc. I also think the dragons did the same thing (and perhaps the dwarves, to a lesser extent - like Azer - because all three races have deep connections).
So now I can use all of that to spin the Eldritch Giants, and say they are the original (planer) Giants (TRUE Giants), before the Dawn and Gods Wars changed the nature of the universe, and before their terrestrial kin became 'locked' into their paths. They are what giants are supposed to be like. Furthermore, being a race that was from the 'Before time' (pre-Dawn War), they are near-immortal (they can die, just not of old age), and they continue to grow larger, and smarter, with age. Thus, there is no need for a race of terrestrial 'titans' - those are just truly ancient Eldritch giants that have reached colossal size and power. They should also be looked-upon by all the other giant kindred like 'gods', or rather, demigods (saints?), because they know those are the forms that are 'closest to Annam' (or whatever). Even the Cloud Giants would bow down to them.
And thats how I spin that stuff. Your mileage may vary.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 19:09:49
I thought the giant thing is open to interpretation. Normal sized creatures are just as capable of requiring giant sized servitors (for instance maintaining the large buildings they built)
And spellweavers have been linked as possibly at odds with the sarrukh.
I get a definite check with spellweavers for more magically powerful than sarrukh and users of ritual magic with the rest as possibles. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 17:43:06
It was still a race of giants that created them. I'd probably stick with eldritch giants the more I've thought on it, and I'd have the eldritch giants being a race that predates Annam's giants. Being that the Mulhorandi people went to Abeir but not their cities, I'd pretty much probably say that these eldritch giants did the same thing. They were transferred to Abeir and their cities and constructs were left behind. This kind of makes what happened to the Mulhorandi "make sense" as well. Thus the "plague" that happened was another magical thing that happened (essentially the twinning of the worlds), and the people that found the things left behind simply assumed the people gone was because of a sudden death. Since that time, the eldritch giants on Abeir have lessened in magical power as a result of being in a world with no natural weave.
possible check... eldritch giants even now are known to live more than 3000 yearsI'm leaning towards them being from a race before the sarrukh (I can only think of one of any magical skill).
possible check... eldritch giants may have been more powerful long agoThe race was so powerful that they made these statues such that the sarrukh couldn't destroy them.
possible check... eldritch giants may have been powerful ritual usersRitual magic was used in their construction and programming (not vancian casting).
possible check... eldritch giants may have disappeared inexplicably to the people of FaerunThe creator race was killed by a series of plagues.
check The creator race was prideful.
possible check... eldritch giants are not documented as very well known on Toril, but they may be more common on AbeirNo known remains of the creator race culture exists |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 16:27:18
So it looks like half the statues that walk details was in Cyclopedia of the realms and the other half was in Dreams of the Red Wizards.
Found a few important looking quotes
quote:
The Statues were built as caretakers
by a race long-since gone in the Realms
when members of that race knew they
were dying out from a series of plagues
they could not fight.
quote:
The race was
proud of its monuments and buildings,
and built the Statues to maintain the
glory of these structures and tear down
anything that would detract from
them.
quote:
The Statues performed their duties
for centuries until the magic-users and
priests of the lizard-men who supplanted
the builders found a method of stopping
them (a very long and drawn-out
ritual taking days and needing special
glyphs to be drawn on every one of the
Statues.
quote:
The
lizard-men could not harm the Statues,
but they could take apart the buildings
they guarded and did so, using them for
their own structures which were later
taken down and reused by the humans
who supplanted the lizard-men.
quote:
There are no known vestiges of the
original culture remaining except the
Statues.
I'm leaning towards them being from a race before the sarrukh (I can only think of one of any magical skill).
The race was so powerful that they made these statues such that the sarrukh couldn't destroy them.
Ritual magic was used in their construction and programming (not vancian casting).
The creator race was killed by a series of plagues.
The creator race was prideful.
No known remains of the creator race culture exists
I can only think of the spellweavers who predated the sarrukh and were more magically powerful than the sarrukh.
Does anyone know if the spellweavers suffered plagues (the spellweaver lore is not realms specifc - I know they all disappeared in the grand conjunction or something like that but could the plagues have driven that event). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Dec 2017 : 23:02:07
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
No Lizardmen were created by the Sarrukh.
The sarrukh were "lizard folk"... that term is pretty generic... I'm really doubting when people were writing and translating ancient lore they had a monster manual and a picture book describing each race. Plus, over time as translations are made, things become unclear... etc... |
| Gyor |
Posted - 29 Dec 2017 : 17:32:36
No Lizardmen were created by the Sarrukh. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 21:14:25
Lizardmen themselves came to the party late. I don't even think they were created by the Sarrukh - weren't they created by the Yuan-ti?
Also, thats in kind of a 'legends tell of a..." sort of fashion. Or a "In the days of old.." - that sort of thing. I think it may just be hyperbole. But even if it isn't, it doesn't say Sarrukh, and it doesn't actually say they had anything to do with them.
But now that you've posted that exact quote, I see the problems within my own assumptions. The were definitely 'made by giants'. We have the Giants that ruled the world alongside the dragons, until their mutual wars destroyed one another. The Stone Giant realm of Fuigar is probably just a last vestige of that. Making them look Egyptian would have been cool, but I'm just not seeing how thats plausible without stretching the heck out of canon.
What if the 'giants' were really Jotuns - primal (planer) Giants? If they were around pre-Sundering (Shattering), they could have been from that 'First World', and may have been souless versions of elementals - basically 'puppets' - designed to perform simple tasks. We know the Primordials created the (planer) giants to help in the construction of the universe, so maybe the giants had their own 'tools' (both dragons and dwarves were probably failed attempts at that - they both revolted). Another way to spin it is that they ARE Jotuns (Primal Giants) whose 'lifeforce' got sucked out. Thus, 'empty receptacles' awaiting a new lifforce. That might work. Of course, we have the canon again, specifically stating they are constructs (but what IS a construct? EVERYTHING was a construct back in those days - even living beings).
I think it might be best to connect them to Ostoria. Maybe from when that empire was at its height. Colossi got abandoned when they began to fall, and the ones on other regions - like the north and elsewhere - were simply destroyed over time (likely by vengeful dragons). Ones in far-outlying provinces would have fared better, like the distant southern part of the continent*. On the other hand, the elves may have been collecting/destroying them. They may have had a bunch of them sitting in a 'junkyard' in Aelinthaldaar, which became Waterdeep, and Ahghairon just took them and repurposed them. There could be 'stashes' of others elsewhere.
*Thinking a tiny bit more on this, I think maybe those were the ones that were part of the Colossal Kingdom, which was mostly based in the Inner Sea region (BEFORE it became the Sea of Fallen Stars - there is some myths/canon about that in Pirates of the Fallen Stars, and the cyclopskin on the islands are the last remnant of that once-great civilization). It was completely destroyed when the rain of meteors ('fallen stars') made the Inner Sea into what it is today. There is also a weird myth about some giants chasing one meteor right into the water (although that doesn't quite jibe with the other lore, because it doesn't say the body of water was created by the meteors... odd, that). That might be an easy fix, though, since I am already assuming there was some body of water there before it was greatly altered by the falling meteors (perhaps a'Great Lakes' type region?)
Regardless, there you have a 'truly ancient' giant kingdom directly north of - and maybe even including parts of - the Old Empires. The StW may have just retreated to the nearest land, after their kingdom was destroyed.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 20:05:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not sure what the purpose is for placing these things that far back in the timeline.
Why couldn't the original group of Mulan deities - ALL the Gods from three different (really just two, but whatever) pantheons - have been in the form of those statues (who would NOT have been statues at that time). Basically, the arriving pantheons were extremely large physical beings, who then set-about placing portions of their power within mortals. Once all of that was done, those 'shells' they used to physically bypass the Godwall were discarded. That means they'll have that Egyptian (and Sumerian/Babylonian) 'look' we want (which is pretty damn cool - otherwise they're just plain vanilla 'giant golems'). I think that sets them back plenty far in the timeline (just prior to the fall of Imaskar).
Fast forward, and the Sarrukh of Okoth get their hands on one of these 'statues' and realize all they need is a lifeforce (spirit) and they can reanimate them, and if they control the spirit, they control the 'statue'. So they summon elementals and place them within the statues*, and they utilize them to rebuild their structures. They do this discreetly, in remote locations (wherever the Sarrukh had their stuff back in the day, far away from prying eyes of 'modern' races). Occasionally, they might even use one of them for another job, like destroying a human settlement that got to close ("The gods are angry!"). Fast forward to the Fall of Nethril - the Sarrukh lose control of their 'statues' (the elementals are simply released).
The Sarrukh themselves are too busy trying to figure-out what happened to magic (epic magic stopped working - no spells above 9th) to be bothered with 'fixing' their maintenance 'bots'. As for the statues - they wound up all over the place, frozen in the middle of whatever tasks they were trying to perform - many of them may have just been found in the wilderness because they were traveling to get more raw materials (stone, etc.) to continue with their jobs. And every so often, a stray bit of magic (or a mischievous spirit) comes along - like a Wild magic Surge - and wakes one up. A short time later (when the spirit gets bored), its shuts back down again, thus continuing the legend of 'the Statues that Walk'. I would say the amount of control (time) such a spirit can 'hold onto' the statue would depend on its own power level - the Living Colossus would literally be sucking up their energy to be powered. Thus, only the mighiest spirits could stay inside them for any length of time.
I suppose that means something akin to a Ghost (Suel) Lich could possibly take one over, indefinitely. That would be kinda neat. Maybe I could even relate this to the Giants in Grey that appear over in K-T every so often.
* I think that's all Golems are - just elementals placed within pre-constructed vessels, although some might use other types of spirits, like lesser fiends. Of course, it still requires one of those manuals to do the binding ritual.
The ONLY reason I have for placing them that far back is to stay true to canon. Also, not having them made by the Mulan is also to stay true to lore. The lore is that before the lizard folk, so therefore my take away there is before the Sarrukh. Now, granted, that IS an assumption on my part.
One thing though that I'm just realizing based on my last post. If we say that indeed these statues were "transformed" and used by the Mulan gods to lead their people out of the Raurin... that means that this stone giant civilization may not have been in Mulhorand.
Hmmmm, another thing I'm just noting too.... just like some folks have made an assumption that the Sarrukh/lizard folk are involved because they're mentioned..... I've made another assumption when I read the entry. It actually says a "race of giants". It doesn't say a race of "stone giants".
So, I guess what we know is that there was SOME race of giants (whether that's dawn titans or something else entirely.... the 3e Eldritch Giants WOULD seem to work and aren't part of Annam's Brood as well, and they can live 3000 years and are 25 feet tall) that was SOMEWHERE prior to some lizard folk (I do feel safe saying that this reference is to "before the Sarrukh). This race of giants built many magical marvels before dying/disappearing in some "plague", leaving behind their magical warriors/statues-that-walk.
Minor aside, in looking up eldritch giants, I looked at death giants, and noted that they have black skin and are called "ash giants" in Faerun. It says they were amongst Netheril, but maybe some were also in the Black Ash Plain.... where the "stone giants" there are known as "ash giants". It might be interesting to mix two giant cultures there, having stone giants and death giants interbreeding.
Long before the coming of the lizard folk, a race of giants walked the Realms. They were destroyed by a great plague, but during their days of glory they built many magical marvels, among which were magical warriors that fought their battles for them. These warriors would defend their monuments, of which they were extremely proud, so that no creature who came after them could destroy the memory of their race.
Of the magical warriors, the only ones that survive are the Statues-That-Walk, also known as stone colossi. Each colossus is really an extremely powerful stone golem. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 18:55:04
I'm not sure what the purpose is for placing these things that far back in the timeline.
Why couldn't the original group of Mulan deities - ALL the Gods from three different (really just two, but whatever) pantheons - have been in the form of those statues (who would NOT have been statues at that time). Basically, the arriving pantheons were extremely large physical beings, who then set-about placing portions of their power within mortals. Once all of that was done, those 'shells' they used to physically bypass the Godwall were discarded. That means they'll have that Egyptian (and Sumerian/Babylonian) 'look' we want (which is pretty damn cool - otherwise they're just plain vanilla 'giant golems'). I think that sets them back plenty far in the timeline (just prior to the fall of Imaskar).
Fast forward, and the Sarrukh of Okoth get their hands on one of these 'statues' and realize all they need is a lifeforce (spirit) and they can reanimate them, and if they control the spirit, they control the 'statue'. So they summon elementals and place them within the statues*, and they utilize them to rebuild their structures. They do this discreetly, in remote locations (wherever the Sarrukh had their stuff back in the day, far away from prying eyes of 'modern' races). Occasionally, they might even use one of them for another job, like destroying a human settlement that got to close ("The gods are angry!"). Fast forward to the Fall of Nethril - the Sarrukh lose control of their 'statues' (the elementals are simply released).
The Sarrukh themselves are too busy trying to figure-out what happened to magic (epic magic stopped working - no spells above 9th) to be bothered with 'fixing' their maintenance 'bots'. As for the statues - they wound up all over the place, frozen in the middle of whatever tasks they were trying to perform - many of them may have just been found in the wilderness because they were traveling to get more raw materials (stone, etc.) to continue with their jobs. And every so often, a stray bit of magic (or a mischievous spirit) comes along - like a Wild magic Surge - and wakes one up. A short time later (when the spirit gets bored), its shuts back down again, thus continuing the legend of 'the Statues that Walk'. I would say the amount of control (time) such a spirit can 'hold onto' the statue would depend on its own power level - the Living Colossus would literally be sucking up their energy to be powered. Thus, only the mighiest spirits could stay inside them for any length of time.
I suppose that means something akin to a Ghost (Suel) Lich could possibly take one over, indefinitely. That would be kinda neat. Maybe I could even relate this to the Giants in Grey that appear over in K-T every so often.
* I think that's all Golems are - just elementals placed within pre-constructed vessels, although some might use other types of spirits, like lesser fiends. Of course, it still requires one of those manuals to do the binding ritual. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 17:04:05
Agreed, nowhere have I found a reference that the sarrukh had any involvement with the statues. I only find that the statues were around prior to the Sarrukh. I don't buy the idea that the sarrukh were involved.
I too do like the idea of having the Mulhorandi gods involved somehow with these statues. What if the "stone giant" (which we're actually calling some kind of stone "people") civilization transferred to Abeir during the original sundering as discussed, but the left behind these statues. Later, along comes these manifestations of gods in their great sky boats. Geb (an earth deity) reaches out and with his help the gods actually take over these statues (causing them to mirror their looks). They then use these statues as "avatars" to fight the Imaskari, and in doing so they remade their look to appear like the deities.
Maybe there's even a hidden alcove in these statues in which someone can ride and drive them around, and it was in here that the manifestations themselves rode, and they used these statues to "guide" their people out of the Raurin. Later, maybe they "linked" these statues to beings of their bloodlines (i.e. incarnations or the families of incarnations). Maybe long ago, the Mulhorandi used these statues to build the original temples that the manifestations moved into. However, doing all of this maybe took a lot of divine power, so after a time, they statues were forced into "sleep mode" again. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 04:24:29
No reason to assume that their original purpose was to repair the ruins. Controlling automations - even really big ones - is a pretty standard thing for any powerful spellcasters like Sarrukh. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 03:06:37
The 4e Okoth is a "rebuilt" Okoth, as the original is still in ruins. Basically, a few sarrukhs from Chult and other sites killed the Sseth worshiper sarrukhs that lived there in Serpent Kingdoms and reclaimed the old ruins, with the aim of rebuilding, but for now are keeping a low profile (so, nobody besides their yuan-ti and were-reptile servants know about this new Okoth). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 02:26:59
Weirdly, Okoth is on the 4e campaign map (unlike any other edition), so I guess something new must have been going on there. Maybe a bunch of Sarrukh that got stuck in Abeir millennia ago 'came home'.
I'm just not seeing a Stone Giant civilization being up to the task of fighting Sarrukh.
What do we have canon-wise that says the Statues were going around fixing Sarrukh ruins? I'm having a problem connecting them, mentally. I just assumed (wrongly, perhaps), that the statues were human-seeming, since I think the old sources would have made mentioned of the fact if they were 'inhuman' (like a reptile). Thus, if these things did belong to the Sarrukh (or some, almost-as-ancient yuan-ti or other 'scalyfolk' race), why didn't they look reptilian?
So here I am thinking that these 'Statues' are really some ancient elementals that got summoned, and are somehow granted permanency (they're golems now). Thats almost a given . Now, the topic itself aside for a moment, that made me think about elementals summoned by Sarrukh... or illithids... or dragons, etc. Elementals tend to have a very rough humanoid appearance, but what if they are summoned by something else? Would they look more like THAT race? 
I really liked the idea that the statues were the cast-off remains of Godly Manifestations, but then we have the problem of why they are going around repairing ruins. I think it would be much cooler (aesthetically) if the statues have an 'Egyptian' look to them - had beast-heads, and what not. Who knows? Maybe they all looked like Sebek. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 22:37:25
And the Netherese copy-pasted the Imaskari, but without a "blood forge", they could only get Mazinger Z.
Now that I think about it... In Shin Mazinger is revealed that the robots are based in the greek gods (actually, aliens from other galaxies). For instance, Mazinger Z was made using Zeus' arm, that he lost battling Hades.
This can be a good idea for some giant golems... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 21:35:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And to take my joke another step further (and I can't believe I'm going here because I don't like 'giant robots'), perhaps the Imaskari had something akin to the All Spark - some sort of artifact they developed that 'gave life' to constructs?
Like some sort of forge?
blood...forge... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 20:49:47
I just read Serpent Kingdoms.
Looks like the empire of Okoth was destroyed by a war and then the survivors fled to the outer planes and in the abyss they encountered the Khaasta.
So this war with the "stone giant" civilisation may be the one responsible for the fall of Okoth. It sounds like Okoth may have won because it survived (but only just) and then collapsed to infighting shortly after.
So the statues maybe weren't repairing buildings as I had thought. They were instead demolishing buildings built atop the ruins of the old okoth ruins or made out of the enchanted stone of old okoth ruins. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 17:51:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And to take my joke another step further (and I can't believe I'm going here because I don't like 'giant robots'), perhaps the Imaskari had something akin to the All Spark - some sort of artifact they developed that 'gave life' to constructs?
Like some sort of forge? |
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