| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| tmcvicar2 |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 16:58:47
Was poring over maps looking for a likely spot to put a canal, thinking it'd be quite the windfall if someone controlled access from the Sea of Swords to the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Anyhow, I like the Impresk area for this. A canal running from Khalleshyr River, across the border into Impresk and staying north of the Snowflakes until joining the river that runs from around Kholmeth down into Impresk lake.
A trip from The Sea of Swords would then entail running up the Esmel Riverto Lake Esmel then upstream on the Amstel/Khalleshyr to to the canal. Across the canal (I estimate about 165-190 miles in length depending on route)to the river near Kholemth, downstream to Impresk Lake, downstream to Shalane Lake/The Deepwash, downstream along the wintercloak river to the Nagawater and then, finally downstream along the nagaflow into the Vilhon reach by Nimpeth.
I think this is the shortest spot without connecting rivers, would eliminate a lot of overland travel (although not without its own unique hazards) and be a sort of fun project to base a campaign around.
How do Amn and Erlkazar handle this monstrosity which straddles their border. Taxes and fees on both ends would certainly help. Do they admisnister the locks and canal themselves or does a private entity?
I'm thinking worshippers of Gond obviously. Stone to mud spells? Disintegrate spells?
I have recently started anew job which entails hours of boredom allowing me to ponder things such as this.
|
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 01:09:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wasn't this the plot of the Watercourse trilogy?
Yes! Though they went through the Lake of Steam and attempted to create a Panama Canal type scenario. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2017 : 00:32:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It was the Watercourse trilogy by Phil Athans. A very thinly veiled nod to Ayn Rand And her objectivism philosophy. Still to this day wonder whether he approved his own novel outline. *sigh*
-- George Krashos
I've not read the books and can offer no opinion of my own on them... But I don't recall them being all that well-liked by those who did read them.
Ah, I read the watercourse trilogy. It actually wasn't half bad, and it did a somewhat interesting exploration of how the people who use magic wanted to see it fail, because they didn't want to see people focused on technology. For instance, with a bunch of necromancers, they don't care if a bunch of workers die as they just replace them with .... themselves... as undead. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 19:33:13
That's right the ode to Ayn Rand. I hate Ayn Rand. Seductively good writer, horribly self-serving philosophy taken way too far. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 19:07:14
Yes, I've only heard bad things (including accusations of out-right plagiarism). On the other hand, it can't be all that much worse than the Mage in the Iron Mask. (I've read neither... and WON'T)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not exactly the sea of swords, but lets also not forget the path opened by 4e from the Inner Sea to the Alamber Sea to the Lake of Salt to opening down where Luiren had been on the Great Sea. From the descriptions written in the SCAG, it does sound like Luiren may be back though.... granted it would have to be recovering from all that time under water. But essentially, does that connection from Azulduth to the Great Sea still exist.... and if it did, what would it mean to have the beastlands/veldorn right next to it.
On the 5e map I am working on (and keep getting distracted from, dammit!), I have most of that gone. Most of the 'mess', anyway. What I did was keep a large body of water (lake, about the size of the Moonsea) in the southern Shaar, and then have a river run both up to the Salt Marsh, and then another across (encompassing the canonical Blood Lake) to the east emptying into the Golden Waters (which now has a large marshland/swamp to the south, where the water has receded, so Var is still "The Drowned" but no longer entirely underwater... its just more fun that way).
The preexisting River (of Swords) is still there, but more like its original form (1e/2e), and also goes to the northern end of the Salt marsh, as it did before. The thing I've added is the Shou Canal (ostensibly built for Mulhorand) that is controlled and maintained by Shou, cutting across from the lake at the center to the southern river flowing down to the Dread Shaar Sea (formerly the 'Dead Hin Sea' in 4e).
This continues the 5e trend to put most of the Realms back to how they were, while maintaining a bit of a dynamic feel in that the effects of the Spellplague (4e) haven't been totally erased (like they have in the Heartlands, which I find a bit odd), and we get to keep the few 'improvements' (interesting bits) we gained along the way.
Although Mulhorand gets to use the canal for free (of course), as do Shou Lung ships, the passage does go through 'The Beastalnds' (Veldorn) and is thus considered 'perilous' to most folks of Faerūn. Couple that with the fact that the Wizard's reach isn't very safe either (thanks to Sahuagin and Thay), traffic coming from that direction is minimal. However, Zakharan merchants (and Corsairs) have no problem using the waterways and Salt Canal, and Zakharan ships can now be seen traversing the Inner sea.
And of course, 99% of the above is homebrew, since we haven't got any canon lore about the condition of the Old Empires (or Shining South) in 5e. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 16:53:14
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It was the Watercourse trilogy by Phil Athans. A very thinly veiled nod to Ayn Rand And her objectivism philosophy. Still to this day wonder whether he approved his own novel outline. *sigh*
-- George Krashos
I've not read the books and can offer no opinion of my own on them... But I don't recall them being all that well-liked by those who did read them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 11:40:40
Not exactly the sea of swords, but lets also not forget the path opened by 4e from the Inner Sea to the Alamber Sea to the Lake of Salt to opening down where Luiren had been on the Great Sea. From the descriptions written in the SCAG, it does sound like Luiren may be back though.... granted it would have to be recovering from all that time under water. But essentially, does that connection from Azulduth to the Great Sea still exist.... and if it did, what would it mean to have the beastlands/veldorn right next to it.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 06:58:45
You can see the canal on THIS MAP I did. It was a fairly short route for a canal, compared to some RW ones. I think in the novel series the canal got blowded up (I know that's bad English, but I just like saying it  ), but then I think in the GHotR they say it got finished (again) anyway. Then the Spellpague happened, and it got blowded up again (see? Wasn't that fun?!)
A route just as short and MUCH more direct would be to have a canal go from the River Tun past Proskur and connect to the River Chionther. Sea-going vessels can already travel ALL THE WAY UP the Chionther to Iriaebor (they have a harbor) from the Sword Coast, and just look at how close that puts them to the Lake of Dragons. And considering the Shou have a major presence right nearby in Elversult (there's a Sea-Portal in the Dragonmere), AND they've built canals in Kara-Tur over a thousand miles long (not unbelievable - RW ancient China did the same), I am extremely surprised they and Cormyr haven't entered into some sort of partnership to get that done. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 03:42:26
It was the Watercourse trilogy by Phil Athans. A very thinly veiled nod to Ayn Rand And her objectivism philosophy. Still to this day wonder whether he approved his own novel outline. *sigh*
-- George Krashos |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 09 Dec 2017 : 01:13:55
Yes there was a FR book series about building a canal, but it was long ago and I don't remember almost anything other than not liking it. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 20:55:55
Of course thats where a secret organisatiom like the knights of the shield or other trade based organisation comes in.
If there is money to be made from something them people will find a way. Baddies will bribe, steal, blackmail, and murder their way to success. Political instability and war are great ways to bring about sudden changes and unexpected agreements. Look at the suez canal (although that was much smaller than what you are proposing). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 19:51:40
The political angle is a huge factor for such an undertaking. Even if you have the money and labor/magic all lined up, various nations are going to be very wary of losing even an inch of their territory, and the fact it would provide an easy path for invasion would be a major fear. Sure, the land itself isn't changing, but a canal would mean that an enemy that would have previously had to march for weeks across multiple nations can now land a major army right on your back door before you even know they don't like you.
Factor in the fact that most likely, you'll have to get funding from the nations who will host the canal, and it becomes an uphill battle just getting the buy-in on it. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 19:05:04
Nothing is impossible in the realms just unlikely. That nutter king built a road from tethyr to the dragoncoast so why not a canal. You just need reasons to explain why other nations allow it and how they get the money and assistance.
Netheril built a huge underground highway under the narrow sea using an artefact so im sure you can do similar (the wyrms of the north article about valamadarace might help you, if i remembered the right article that is) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 19:01:26
Of course its entirely possible to do it with a passing asteroid. Thats how we got the sea of fallen stars and i think the lake of steam (or maybe the dragon sea).
So find yourself some magic linked to a passing space body and just pull it close enough for impact. The death toll might make you a bit unpopular. Or you could try slaves or perhaps a criminal outreach program. Get every nation to send you its law breakers and work them to death digging a canal. Life is cheaper than money and money is cheaper than magic |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 18:56:20
There's several issues with this. First as Wooly pointed out, the watercourse trilogy tried to do the same thing on a much shorter span (basically connecting the nagaflow to down near Innarlith. Second, the two sections, if you look at the maps, they indicate that their rivers are flowing downward to either side of the snowflake mountains. So, if you're looking to make a canal, its going to be going UP on both sides. It will also be over a much longer path than that taken by the watercourse trilogy. It will also cover multiple kingdoms. The initial cost versus return on investment would probably make this unviable. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 18:17:01
Wasn't this the plot of the Watercourse trilogy?
I didn't read the books, myself, but I've seen some criticisms thrown their way -- some because it was another of those "it happened but didn't happen" things from 3E where things happen in one book or series and are never mentioned anywhere else, and some because apparently the books draw heavily on an Ayn Rand book. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 17:56:53
D&D never got any of the economy right so since it is a medieval era of play (with magic included) i found some sources of medieval wages in england to come up with a rough economy. That meant labourers earned copper pieces a day (10-20 if they were lucky).
Of course then you have to adjust all the prices for goods but its all in the name of maintaining atmosphere and continuity. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 17:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
A rough guide is a labourer should earn 1gp a year minus half for expenses.
Merchants and minor nobles might earn 10gp a year minus expenses.
A kin probably earns a few hundred gp a year minus expenses.
What are you basing these wages. 3.5 paid unskilled a silver per day. That comes close to one gold a week or 3 gold per month. Say 36 gold per year. The costs of food and shelter certainly could be half or more. Though some employment almost would require employer to provide shelter and sometimes food as well. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Dec 2017 : 17:28:50
One thing the broken economy of D&D does is disguise the fact that magic costs money, a lot of money.
A spell should cost more than most labourers can earn in a week (and thats a low level spell). The highest level spells have expensive components that mean only the richest merchants can afford to have one cast for them.
Churches and wizards spend a lot of time and agents gathering these resources and they hoard them for when needed. But would they have enough to splurge thise reagents on such a project and more importantly would they want to unless they were going to be paid more than most countries turn over.
A rough guide is a labourer should earn 1gp a year minus half for expenses.
Merchants and minor nobles might earn 10gp a year minus expenses.
A kin probably earns a few hundred gp a year minus expenses.
With that as a guide who can afford to cast spells on a whim. Magic should be on a need only and that need had best be dire. Unfortunately D&D broke the economy model to make play more exciting |
