| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Starshade |
Posted - 16 Nov 2017 : 21:13:45
I know the Kreen is from Dark Sun, but the Kreen races in general are different, and seems interesting, anyone who's used anything beyond the basic Kreen in Forgotten Realms? |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 02:11:23
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Thanks, I probably will look on Thri-Kreen of Arthas, and see if I want them to be former Spellweaver slaves, Spelljammer users, or a bit of both. 
Or descendants of spelljamming mercenaries. Of the ancient 'Chil, Spellweavers or whoever.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Former Spelljammers works best IMO, considering Thri-kreen once had a stellar empire somewhere near Realmspace. I think they were stranded on Toril from crashed ships or something, rather than being colonists, as they seem to have mostly wandering tribal hunter bands rather than "civilizations" in the modern Realms.
There are at least 4 populations (Maztica, Shaar, Hordelands, Moonsea), at least one seems to be of unusual stock, and we don't know how long either of them was around, so they may have different origins.
Specifically the Moonsea group could have walked in via Ravensgate (either as refugees or employed by someone) back before elves closed the doors and slaughtered whoever they didn't chase off (which is why they moved away).
Or imported as slaves by the Neogi from Fallen Stars (in which case they could initially have a somewhat seaworthy ship, but won't care for sea travel later). After all, the kreen could have been simple workers from a remote colony, but they still need only a little opening to gang up on an umber hulk, and paralysing venom will do the rest.
Either origin would explain their lack of interaction with neighbours other than eating the intruders.
Just a thought... if the Shandaular/Ashanath/Synnoria/Llewyrrwood gate infrastructure that we were talking about a couple weeks back is valid.... and if this gate is how all these various northmen groups got spread into the Shaar/Ulgarth/Utter East/Rashemen, etc... what if there's also a gate somewhere in northwestern anchorome that's a part of this.
Why do I say this? We have the metahel (who resemble a Northman culture that's thrown into an area with no timber) in Anchorome. We also have a strange group of elves (Poscadari) who came there from somewhere that was frozen and who want nothing to do with Evermeet and the Sun/Moon elves. We also have the land of the insect men which seems to have thri-kreen.
So, if there is a portal somewhere in Anchorome, perhaps these thri-kreen accidentally used it just like the northmen. This could explain some showing up in the Shaar, because they were near the toadsquat mountains, which is near Shandaular. Some may have travelled east into the hordelands. After all, nothing should say that humanity is the only beings able to blunder into elven magic. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 01:47:03
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Thanks, I probably will look on Thri-Kreen of Arthas, and see if I want them to be former Spellweaver slaves, Spelljammer users, or a bit of both.
Or descendants of spelljamming mercenaries. Of the ancient 'Chil, Spellweavers or whoever.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Former Spelljammers works best IMO, considering Thri-kreen once had a stellar empire somewhere near Realmspace. I think they were stranded on Toril from crashed ships or something, rather than being colonists, as they seem to have mostly wandering tribal hunter bands rather than "civilizations" in the modern Realms.
There are at least 4 populations (Maztica, Shaar, Hordelands, Moonsea), at least one seems to be of unusual stock, and we don't know how long either of them was around, so they may have different origins.
Specifically the Moonsea group could have walked in via Ravensgate (either as refugees or employed by someone) back before elves closed the doors and slaughtered whoever they didn't chase off (which is why they moved away).
Or imported as slaves by the Neogi from Fallen Stars (in which case they could initially have a somewhat seaworthy ship, but won't care for sea travel later). After all, the kreen could have been simple workers from a remote colony, but they still need only a little opening to gang up on an umber hulk, and paralysing venom will do the rest.
Either origin would explain their lack of interaction with neighbours other than eating the intruders. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2017 : 01:35:21
Hmmmm, just a thought on a spellweaver, thri-kreen link. According to dragon 338's ecology of the spellweaver, every 600 years, spellweavers essentially build a "coffin" or essentially a chrysalis like a butterfly. They then go in it for a month and come out rejuvenated but darker skinned. They do this 6 times, and then the 7th time they actually reproduce by splitting themselves into 6 new spellweavers. There is also something to spellweaver blood, in that it seems almost like mercury, but they also harden it into their chromatic disks. What if during their "regeneration" one "sect" of spellweavers decided to develop an exoskeleton by mingling their quicksilver blood with that of a thri-kreen. Maybe this is why some spellweavers look like white fleshed beings, and others look more insectoid. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 18:31:45
All that being said, the Thri-Kreen of Athas and the Thri-Kreen of everywhere else are slightly different species. They've been tailored (er, adapted) to each setting in slightly different ways. So it is conceivable that some non-Athas kreen populations somehow interacted with spellweavers. But again, I don't personally like grouping them together simply because both races are big talking bugs. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 17:21:12
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I gave a reason in my Jergal musings for the thri-kreen to worship spellweavers, but it wasn't my intention to state that the kreen were in some way devolved spellweavers.
-- George Krashos
Nor was it my intention to imply such. I only mentioned you and Eric in regards to the lore about the Spellweaver empire collapsing. Everything else was just 'how I spin things in my Realms'.
Further conjecture based on my theories:
As for Spellweavers 'predating the multiverse' (and others disagreeing with that statement) - both versions are true. Kreen predated the current multiverse - the one that formed when the First World was shattered in the God (Dawn) War. They may have even evolved into an early form of Spellweaver before the culmination of that war (which I don't see taking the same amount of time as mortal wars - it probably lasted centuries, if not millennia).
After the Prime Material was sundered (and became the 'inner planes' - the Material and Elementals), the current multiverse began to coalesce out of the fragments of the First One. During this time, most Kreen devolved back into a semi-savage (or even full 'bestial' in some cases) state, while others fared somewhat better (The Spellweaver Empire that GK and EB propose).
To me, simplifying things and saying 'they are the same race' wouldn't be true, because both have evolved along completely separate paths at this point, and the Kreen especially, who have evolved in different directions on a myriad of worlds. For all we know, there could even be 'alternate' Weavers as well - ones who maintained a certain level of culture but were separated from the others. Calling them all the same would be like saying all primates - including humans - are 'just monkeys'. I'm just proposing a connection thats 35K+ years in the past.
I also don't associate Spellweavers with Darksun, just because they have Kreen races. Most worlds have some variant of Kreen, but most probably fall under the radar of Spellweavers (as being 'too uninteresting').
I've been toying with the idea of making the Weavers the antithesis of the Illithids - THIS (D&D) universe's version of them (the Mindflayers would have evolved in the 'Before-verse', which has become the Far Realms now). Whereas the illithids are a fairly logical (lawful) race that evolved in a universe of pure chaos, the Weavers are a purely natural (evolved from insects) race in a universe where gods created just about everything else. Both consider themselves 'above the rest' when it comes to other groups from their respective universes (Aberrations, in regards to the illithids).
I'm not sure how to spin the reactions to each other - perhaps the illithids keep their presence hidden from Weavers, magic being quite a bit more powerful than psionics (usually). I'd need to read GK's Lord of the End of Everything article to fit the pieces together better (my thoughts here are that the illithids interfered in whatever the Weavers were trying to do - they basically sabotaged them, thus destroying their empire. If nothing else, it shows the level of respect {fear?} the flayers had for them). And of course, involving the illithids would mean involving all the Gith as well (and it seems wherever we find Kreen, we find Gith). |
| Martinsky |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 16:02:15
Thri-Kreen appear in SHining South book 3.5ed as a playable race. They live in tribes in the Shar mostly. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 12:52:32
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"Long ago, were the Blue Times, when the world was new, and there was water everywhere, so much water that it appeared blue. The kreen of the Blue Time lived on pieces of land that floated in the water. It is said that early kreen had great, gossamer wings, which they used to fly between the pieces of land. They knew nothing of tools and building, but even then they hunted. In that age were only kreen and animals, and a few plants, on the pieces of land.
Then, so slowly that no one could notice until it had already happened, the water went away. The pieces of land grew roots, and the roots grew together, until land covered most of the world and water stood in only a few places. Plants grew in profusion over the new land. This was the Green Time.
During the Green Time, more animals were born, and hunting was good. The kreen, able to travel to more of the world, discovered wondrous animals, kinds they could not have imagined. During the Green Time, the kreen, much to their surprise, met mammals who could talk. Not quite kreen, they became known as dra-trin, the sleepers-like-people. Now we call them dra, and we reserve the term for those who are more similar to kreen. The dra were small, but they, over time, gave rise to larger dra, and the many kinds of dra filled their part of the world.
To resist the many races of dra, the kreen had to learn new skills. It was during the Green Time that kreen learned the way of fighting with the mind, and with weapons. The kreen fought, and they built, and they learned to change themselves to become better warriors and hunters. They survived.
Then came the beginning of the Brown Time ..."
If true, then the kreen likely weren't "contemporaries" of the spellweavers, and they certainly don't "predate the creation of the current multiverse". They possess an instinctive genetic (and psionic) memory which predates their own emergence as an intelligent tool-using (and mind-using) race and spans as far back as the Blue Age of Athas, some 14,100 years (or even some 74,000 years) before the "present year" of the 2E Dark Sun setting.
I agree that spellweavers are kinda cool but I don't go for them really having anything at all to do with either Dark Sun or the kreen. Associating them with the kreen simply because they're both intelligent large insectoids would be just as valid as claiming Seldarine elves "degenerated" into humans on our own world simply because they're both intelligent medium humanoids. I'm not saying such links are impossible, only that they need better justifications than a grossly similar taxonomic classification (which could, and have been, more easily be explained as natural evolutions or supernatural creations which converged upon similar-looking forms).
I also note that kreen generally do not have any aptitude for the magic that strongly defines spellweavers, but kreen do have great aptitude for becoming unparalleled psionicists. In a 2E-era which consistently tries to assert the notion that magic and psionics are fundamentally different and incompatible things (even though they ironically share a large overlap). And in a "post-apocalyptic" 2E setting which has been (and continues to be) turned into a barren poisoned wasteland from the destructive, defiling, poisonous effects magic has on the world.
So why layer a complex and clumsy non-canon explanation for kreen origins onto the simplex and elegant explanation that canon already offers?
It could also be that similar to illithids that focus on magic over psionics, that the kreen who "may have been" born differently as spellweavers were cast out or even outright killed in certain communities for using the "evil" kind of magic. While I agree that there is nothing to intrinsically link the two, it does seem that a lot of us have done so. Of course, it would all depend on the visual version of spellweavers one has, because some versions are insectoid and others are very much not. To take that a bit further, there may even be different versions of spellweavers (kind of like how there were different versions of aliens in the aliens movies... some of which were fleshy over having an exoskeleton). Given that we're also hearing the idea of kreen with wings, it might be interesting to experiment with a culture revolving around different adaptations of kreen. I was planning on actually having such with the land of the insect men over on Northeastern Anchorome (hinted to in the City of Gold product). I was planning to have thri-kreen, bacar, insectoid spellweavers, and now I'm considering winged kreen. I figured having ankhegs, fire beetles, giant beetles, and giant spiders as "pets". I was also considering having another kind of insectoid being, but one which wasn't antagonistic to humans/elves, etc... that being the Abeil, and they might even trade with humans/elves. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 12:43:30
Also: Do i intepret the names of the Thri-kreen of Arthas correct, J'ez and J'hol got their own lands, T'keech and Tondi is Tohr-kreen who have lost their name, and the book even state that's the case. Jeral, one of the Thri-kreen, is also stated as having a land in the Tohr-kree areas, while the to'ksa is named in same way as one of the kreen subtypes who have "lost lands".
The book say if J'ez and J'hol did loose their land, they would probably be named T'ez and T'hol.
So, I see some possibilites: all thri-kreen without a homeland, could be descendants of some "lost" land. Some wandering "thri kreen" is lost tohr kreen, or the "subtype" is divided among thri and tohr, in same way an American or Englishman both is "English" to an Amish. (IE: we do label thri differently than they would do).
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 12:34:51
Hmmm, seems a lot of us have been hitting about the thri-kreen / spellweaver connection. I do like the idea of them devolving versus the kreen being an engineered race. Then the idea of the periodic birth of a spellweaver amongst the thri-kreen is a good one. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 06:51:42
I gave a reason in my Jergal musings for the thri-kreen to worship spellweavers, but it wasn't my intention to state that the kreen were in some way devolved spellweavers.
-- George Krashos |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Nov 2017 : 00:18:48
"Long ago, were the Blue Times, when the world was new, and there was water everywhere, so much water that it appeared blue. The kreen of the Blue Time lived on pieces of land that floated in the water. It is said that early kreen had great, gossamer wings, which they used to fly between the pieces of land. They knew nothing of tools and building, but even then they hunted. In that age were only kreen and animals, and a few plants, on the pieces of land.
Then, so slowly that no one could notice until it had already happened, the water went away. The pieces of land grew roots, and the roots grew together, until land covered most of the world and water stood in only a few places. Plants grew in profusion over the new land. This was the Green Time.
During the Green Time, more animals were born, and hunting was good. The kreen, able to travel to more of the world, discovered wondrous animals, kinds they could not have imagined. During the Green Time, the kreen, much to their surprise, met mammals who could talk. Not quite kreen, they became known as dra-trin, the sleepers-like-people. Now we call them dra, and we reserve the term for those who are more similar to kreen. The dra were small, but they, over time, gave rise to larger dra, and the many kinds of dra filled their part of the world.
To resist the many races of dra, the kreen had to learn new skills. It was during the Green Time that kreen learned the way of fighting with the mind, and with weapons. The kreen fought, and they built, and they learned to change themselves to become better warriors and hunters. They survived.
Then came the beginning of the Brown Time ..."
If true, then the kreen likely weren't "contemporaries" of the spellweavers, and they certainly don't "predate the creation of the current multiverse". They possess an instinctive genetic (and psionic) memory which predates their own emergence as an intelligent tool-using (and mind-using) race and spans as far back as the Blue Age of Athas, some 14,100 years (or even some 74,000 years) before the "present year" of the 2E Dark Sun setting.
I agree that spellweavers are kinda cool but I don't go for them really having anything at all to do with either Dark Sun or the kreen. Associating them with the kreen simply because they're both intelligent large insectoids would be just as valid as claiming Seldarine elves "degenerated" into humans on our own world simply because they're both intelligent medium humanoids. I'm not saying such links are impossible, only that they need better justifications than a grossly similar taxonomic classification (which could, and have been, more easily be explained as natural evolutions or supernatural creations which converged upon similar-looking forms).
I also note that kreen generally do not have any aptitude for the magic that strongly defines spellweavers, but kreen do have great aptitude for becoming unparalleled psionicists. In a 2E-era which consistently tries to assert the notion that magic and psionics are fundamentally different and incompatible things (even though they ironically share a large overlap). And in a "post-apocalyptic" 2E setting which has been (and continues to be) turned into a barren poisoned wasteland from the destructive, defiling, poisonous effects magic has on the world.
So why layer a complex and clumsy non-canon explanation for kreen origins onto the simplex and elegant explanation that canon already offers? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 20 Nov 2017 : 20:53:20
In fact, in 4e terms the weavers (as the MM3 calls them) predate the creation of the "current multiverse". They are as old as the obyriths. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Nov 2017 : 20:27:35
Personally, I think of the 'Thri-Kreen as a 'devolved' form of Spellweaver.
The Spellweavers had a huge interplanetary empire back in primordial times; they were the first race to have evolved to that level of civilization (thus, probably pre-dating the Creator Races, or, the way I see it, they were contemporaries, but the Creator Races were themselves created "by the gods", and the Spellweavers evolved naturally, from insectoid lifeforms (and may have even been the impetus for the gods to start playing with their own races). In 4e/5e terms, that means they were around before the Dawn War, and may have created Astraljammers or some-such, which they adapted after the First World (The Prime Material) was shattered (there would have been no reason for SJ before the Prime Material was Sundered).
Then their empire collapsed (both Eric Boyd and George Krashos have lore in this regard), and many of the planet-bound Spellweavers devolved back into a savage state - the Kreen races. The Spaceweavers still maintained most of their culture, however, and have since been using the astral and ethereal to get about (as they did originally, before the Dawn War). They don't want to admit the unsophisticated Thri-Kreen (and others) are related to them. I suppose if Thri-Kreen encountered Weavers, they may look at them as 'gods' from their legends.
That's mostly homebrew, of course. I like to think that every so often there is a 'throwback' genetic mutation, and a Spellweaver is born into a Kreen community (Like Enik from Land of the Lost), and they'd treat such a being as a demigod. You could get a nice adventure or three out of that plot. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 20 Nov 2017 : 17:21:30
Just seen on Thri-Kreen of Arthas, and it appears even more useful than I thought, brilliant book. 
It also seems I now got 6 species of Tohr, 2 of Thri, the mysterious Zik-Chil and the Spelljammer version xixchil. I sort of suspected the mentions of "racial memory" on the net meant they could be left to grow up as small hatchlings on their own, and end up as happy adventurers.
Ayrik: I agree, they got potential for stories, and certainly for novels. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2017 : 02:26:04
Kreen are a hardy and instinctively predatory species, able to survive to any environment habitable by (demi)humans and able to dominate their niches. So it's no surprise that they've "colonized" so many worlds.
Though their populations apparently don't grow very fast, whether from low birth rates or high mortality, otherwise they would surely have displaced other intelligent races. They'd also be very well-adapted for various other planes (especially since most of them are psionic and many of these would possess astral or psychoportive talents) but they aren't mentioned much in Planescape. It seems odd that the six subspecies of kreen known on Athas have become more specialized (or at least it seems the xixchil and thri-kreen have) but no more subspecies have arisen across subsequent millennia anywhere in the magic-rich worlds and spaces kreen are known to now inhabit. It saddens me that there's no kreen equivalents to "tieflings" and "outsiders" in published lore. And it saddens me that no kreen characters have been featured in any novels. I'm of the opinion that they're much cooler than the drow or orcs or shades who usually get all the attention. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 20 Nov 2017 : 02:01:57
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Thanks, I probably will look on Thri-Kreen of Arthas, and see if I want them to be former Spellweaver slaves, Spelljammer users, or a bit of both.
Former Spelljammers works best IMO, considering Thri-kreen once had a stellar empire somewhere near Realmspace. I think they were stranded on Toril from crashed ships or something, rather than being colonists, as they seem to have mostly wandering tribal hunter bands rather than "civilizations" in the modern Realms.
Jeff |
| Starshade |
Posted - 19 Nov 2017 : 22:12:46
Thanks, I probably will look on Thri-Kreen of Arthas, and see if I want them to be former Spellweaver slaves, Spelljammer users, or a bit of both.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Nov 2017 : 07:57:51
IIRC there were kreen living in partially underground village somewhere near Moonsea. Which makes them tohr-kreen.
See also:
The Thri-kreen
Thri-Kree Origins?
|
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 17 Nov 2017 : 13:56:48
Thri-kreen are well established in the Realms, but I've never found any lore about the other kreen species. Of course, you could always change one species for another.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Thri-Kreen |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 17 Nov 2017 : 12:28:09
Thri-kreen have been confirmed in the Realms. Packs of them inhabit large, southern plains. The Shaar/Eastern Shaar probably has the largest number of them (though even there I don't think they're particularly common). I think there are some packs in the Shining Plains and possibly even the Giant's Plain, but any further north and it gets too cold for them. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 17 Nov 2017 : 10:51:46
Actually the thri-kreen first appeared before Dark Sun, at least back in 1e Monster Manual 2. Besides, they are also present in the 2e Forgotten Realms Monster Compendium MC 3, and if I'm not mistaken it was also published before DS was released.
The tohr-kreen - and later, the other kreen - were released in DS books, and as far as I know they were not mentioned in the Realms after that. But there are hints on insectoid beings which can be thri-kreen, and maybe its variants, in some FR books - I can't recall if they are in Faerūn, in other Torillian lands like Maztica, or both (unfortunately, I can't remember the sourcebooks right now).
Anyway, I'd say you can use them if you will, using the DM prerogative and these loose references. Personally, I haven't used them yet, but I think of having at least one thri-kreen as a member of the Mindungulph Mercenary Company in my 2e campaign. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Nov 2017 : 21:48:59
Kreen are playable races in Spelljammer and Dark Sun. They can also be found in the Realms - and a few individuals have been placed in Ravenloft - but technically also in any/every D&D setting since they were also presented in various Monster Manuals and Monstrous Compendiums across every major (A)D&D edition.
I recommend you read 2E Thri-Kreen of Athas. It's all about the (six) Kreen races, their biology, their psychology, their civilization and history (such as it is), their apparent origins on Athas (as the only natively-evolved intelligent species on Athas unrelated to "halflings"), and their migration/diaspora to worlds beyond. The book defines "Thri-Kreen" and "Thor-Kreen" as basically being nearly identical species, their differences are mostly cultural with the Thri-Kreen tending to be more tribal and nomadic. Some Spelljammer material sort of picked up where Dark Sun left off, although the links were written in an inconclusive manner (although the products were written by the same authors and published in the same years, so the connections were likely intentional). Spelljammer legends describe "Kreenspace" (which may be Athas or may be some other sphere/world), accessible from the Flow thousands of years past but now drifted somewhere far away into uncharted (and perhaps inaccessible) space. |
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