| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 11:48:10
I just thought its kind of interesting that the island dedicated to the goddess of lies (Nimbral) is right next to the land of the one primordial known as "the deceiver". I'm not saying Ubtao is Leira, but did the two have some involvement (I know none in canon). I know he's called that because "he turned on his fellow primordials", but what do we "know" about that. Just throwing it out, see what fishes back. |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gyor |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 19:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, as for primordials being 'evil'. You have to understand just what these things were. They really aren't the 'Titans' of Greek mythology - not the anthropomorphic ones (FR/D&D has those as well, which is why i split the Primordials into three echelons). Some of them are described as having 'stars circling their heads' (so the greatest of them were bigger than solar systems).
You know how some people walk around and step on ants (and anthills) and don't give a crap? And other people - myself included - look down and walk around them? (I don't kill insects in my house, except for mosquitoes because they want my blood - I capture them and release them outside). Thats the difference between Estelar and primordials. Are humans who kill 'mere insects' evil? I guess to the bugs they would be.
As for what Tom just said above - I think slapping labels (categories) on stuff of that magnitude is a human (mortal) convention. We just love to have neat divisions of things so we can pretend there is some form of order to the universe.
There isn't. There really is no difference between any of the beings above the 'Immortals' (ascended mortal) tier, except in regards to shear power, and that can change, and does, all the time. They don't 'switch categories', humans (and others) just relabeled them to make themselves feel better. The universe is a chaotic place, born from chaos, and we just have to get over that. Ubtao doesn't give an osquip's arse what we call him.
That sounds more like Onyx Paths Scion Setting then FR.
There is a far more major difference between Primordials and the Estlar on a metaphysical level, I mean evil deities have no problem with stepping on mortals.
Primordials are tied to the Elemental Planes, they are the manifestions of pure physicality, where as the Estelar are tied to the Astral Plane and the planes within it, and are in purest essence platonic ideals manifest.
Some Archfey are effectly deific beings, but are tied to the Feywild instead of the Astral Plane or Elemental Chaos.
Then there are the Dark Powers of the Shadowfell, Godlike beings we know very little about except they created Ravenloft, and its Darklords.
Most of the Gods of FR are Estelar, a small handful are Primordials, a few are Archfey that gained a divine spark, and some are uplifted Mortals (Torm, Cyric, Kelemour), and some are Estelar who became incarnated (Mulhorand/Unther Gods).
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| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 18:55:44
First off, as for primordials being 'evil'. You have to understand just what these things were. They really aren't the 'Titans' of Greek mythology - not the anthropomorphic ones (FR/D&D has those as well, which is why i split the Primordials into three echelons). Some of them are described as having 'stars circling their heads' (so the greatest of them were bigger than solar systems).
You know how some people walk around and step on ants (and anthills) and don't give a crap? And other people - myself included - look down and walk around them? (I don't kill insects in my house, except for mosquitoes because they want my blood - I capture them and release them outside). Thats the difference between Estelar and primordials. Are humans who kill 'mere insects' evil? I guess to the bugs they would be.
As for what Tom just said above - I think slapping labels (categories) on stuff of that magnitude is a human (mortal) convention. We just love to have neat divisions of things so we can pretend there is some form of order to the universe.
There isn't. There really is no difference between any of the beings above the 'Immortals' (ascended mortal) tier, except in regards to shear power, and that can change, and does, all the time. They don't 'switch categories', humans (and others) just relabeled them to make themselves feel better. The universe is a chaotic place, born from chaos, and we just have to get over that. Ubtao doesn't give an osquip's arse what we call him. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 15:42:46
So Tomb of Annihilation (and the Adventurer's League legal adventure add ons) strongly suggest that Ubtao (1) is still present in the form of the nature spirits of Chult (and perhaps also the "fey" chiwinga), making him seem more like a primal spirit than primordial (2) he was also present in the nine trickster gods slain by Acererak (so some of his essence has died), and (3) saved Mezro by bringing it somewhere else until Chult is cleansed (suggested to mean when Acererak, Ras Nsi, and the undead are defeated) since Artus Cimbar is still alive (due to the ring of winter) and searching for his barra wife. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 13:32:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, Ed says "all priests, religions, and gods lie... gods most of all"
They couldn't function without her. She's actually the goddess of truth... truths she has learned to 'keep close to her chest'.
Imagine a government that couldn't lie to its people. It wouldn't even be able to function. Now imagine how much worse it would be if mortals new any sort of truths about the universe... the gods just aren't having that.
The greatest joke of all is that Leira - and the 'loths - beings who are known to be the biggest liars - are really the biggest keepers of the truth. You see, most liars tell their lies so often they start to believe them, even gods. But not beings who's very fabric is lies. When you hold dominion over lies, you also get to know what all the truths are. Two sides of the same coin. 
And since you mentioned Ubtao, did we ever find out what Eshadow really was? For a time I thought it was an alias of Shar's, but the whole story there is very fuzzy. In fact, it still makes a lot of sense, if we just keep Ed's lore pristine and ignore some newer stuff (I am pretty sure Toril itself is shar's prison at this point).
But what I don't know is, was Shar ever a real being to begin with? 
Or is that just Selūne down in that cell, rocking back & forth in her straight-jacket, talking to her 'imaginary friend'?
Yeah, Eshowdow was another piece of things that I was wondering about in relation to this. Technically, we have "canon" lore where it says that Shar was taking over Eshowdow and ultimately that might break the rules setup with Ubtao, etc...
You know, one of the questions that does occur to me regarding Ubtao is what to do with him. If he were a primordial who went to Abeir as Qotal..... might it be worthwhile to simply let him get killed there by the other primordials? Maybe he even sacrifices himself there, and he is rebirthed (with the aid of Lathander) in a young "child" who is a godly manifestation.
SIDENOTE: in my reading up on Quetzalcoatl, Tezcalipoca, etc... some of the myths have them creating and destroying 4 suns who are represented as the various gods, and killing the people each time. Finally, Quetzalcoatl goes into the earth/underworld, finds the bones of the people, uses his own blood to remake them.
I also take back what I said yesterday about Xipe Xotec sounding like Zaltec. It was the description of their sacrifices that made me think of him. Xipe Xotec from what I see is always associated with "gold, farming, spring, rebirth". He "flayed" himself to provide food for the people (in the way that seeds shed their outer layer). Without his skin "he shined golden". I've often wondered if Lathander wasn't a primordial from Maztica and possibly another brother of Ubtao who was exiled (and perhaps he is a firebird/phoenix figure as all of these gods have some ties to birds it seems and were probably gods of the aearee and possibly the reptilian folk as well for some given the imagery). The fact that he disappeared during the spellplague makes me believe that he was. Someone put the stuff for Lopango "Land of the Sacred Sun" (known in other stuff as "Land of Fire") up on DM's Guild using Intiri, and I've played with the idea that this is one avatar of Lathander (though not putting that in writing).
Going with the idea of Eshowdow being some kind of "spin off" of Ubtao/Qotal.... it might be interesting if we find out that Bazim-Gorag, the firebringer, is some kind of "reflection" of Lathander from when Lathander/Intiri or Lathander or Intiri was/is in the Lopango (but a reflection perhaps created by a ritual performed by a batrachi meant to steal the power of a primordial). Perhaps the release of Bazim-Gorag weakened Lathander just before the spellplague.
By the way, just because of the interesting aspect of these "five suns", here's what I was reading regarding Aztec lore
From the void that was the rest of the universe, the first god, Ometeotl, created itself[citation needed]. Ometeotl was both male and female, good and evil, light and darkness, fire and water, judgment and forgiveness, the god of duality[citation needed]. Ometeotl gave birth to four children, the four Tezcatlipocas, who each preside over one of the four cardinal directions[citation needed]. Over the West presides the White Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, the god of light, mercy and wind. Over the South presides the Blue Tezcatlipoca, Huitzilopochtli, the god of war. Over the East presides the Red Tezcatlipoca, Xipe Totec, the god of gold, farming and Spring time. And over the North presides the Black Tezcatlipoca, also called simply Tezcatlipoca, the god of judgment, night, deceit, sorcery and the Earth.
It was these four gods who eventually created all the other gods and the world we know today, but before they could create they had to destroy, for every time they attempted to create something, it would fall into the water beneath them and be eaten by Cipactli, the giant earth crocodile, who swam through the water with mouths at every one of her joints. The four Tezcatlipocas descended the first people who were giants. They created the other gods, the most important of whom were the water gods: Tlaloc, the god of rain and fertility and Chalchiuhtlicue, the goddess of lakes, rivers and oceans, also the goddess of beauty. To give light, they needed a god to become the sun and the Black Tezcatlipoca was chosen, but either because he had lost a leg or because he was god of the night, he only managed to become half a sun. The world continued on in this way for some time, but a sibling rivalry grew between Quetzalcoatl and his brother the mighty sun, who Quetzalcoatl knocked from the sky with a stone club. With no sun, the world was totally black and in his anger, Tezcatlipoca commanded his jaguars to eat all the people.
The gods created a new group of people to inhabit the Earth, this time they were of normal size. Quetzalcoatl became the new sun and as the years passed, the people of the Earth grew less and less civilized and stopped showing proper honor to the gods. As a result, Tezcatlipoca demonstrated his power and authority as god of sorcery and judgment by turning the animalistic people into monkeys. Quetzalcoatl, who had loved the flawed people as they were, became upset and blew all of the monkeys from the face of the Earth with a mighty hurricane. He then stepped down as the sun to create a new people.
Tlaloc became the next sun, but Tezcatlipoca seduced and stole his wife Xochiquetzal, the goddess of sex, flowers and corn. Tlaloc then refused to do anything other than wallow in his own grief, so a great drought swept the world. The people's prayers for rain annoyed the grieving sun and he refused to allow it to rain, but the people continued to beg him. Then, in a fit of rage he answered their prayers with a great downpour of fire. It continued to rain fire until the entire Earth had burned away. The gods then had to construct a whole new Earth from the ashes.
The next sun and also Tlalocs new wife, was Chalchiuhtlicue. She was very loving towards the people, but Tezcatlipoca was not. Both the people and Chalchiuhtlicue felt his judgment when he told the water goddess that she was not truly loving and only faked kindness out of selfishness to gain the peoples praise. Chalchiuhtlicue was so crushed by these words that she cried blood for the next fifty-two years, causing a horrific flood that drowned everyone on Earth.
Quetzalcoatl would not accept the destruction of his people and went to the underworld where he stole their bones from the god Mictlantecuhtli. He dipped these bones in his own blood to resurrect his people, who reopened their eyes to a sky illuminated by the current sun, Huitzilopochtli.
In the above, Tlaloc could very well fit Talos as well as a possible primordial who left Maztica. Tlaloc was a sky god known for hail, thunder, lightning, and obviously destruction (he did have a beneficent side as well, but.... we are also saying that these gods don't exactly match up). It could be interesting to also have Talos/Tlaloc down in the Lopango area, given that he also disappeared during the spellplague (and given that I already want Talos there given all the volcanos and the fact that I'll have red wizards there). It might also fit that he is "Khas", the barbarian rain god down in the Shaar with palm trees for fingers, and he gradually moved north taking new names possibly by subsuming other entities (Bhaelros, Kozah, etc...).
Given this idea, we would have at least 3 "exiled" gods of Maztica coming to Faerun in the form of Ubtao, Lathander, and Talos... all of whom were one of the suns in the above story.
Also, given that we're playing with the idea of Ubtao having a light and dark side, Lathander having a light and dark side, perhaps so does Tezcalipocas (the first sun). We have this concept showing Tezcalipocas offering a limb of himself as "bait" for this ever-hungering thing of many mouths (cipactli, the giant crocodile). He loses this limb, but its turned towards the purpose of ending the threat of cipactli. What if this separation of the being spawned a new entity from the torn off piece.... a being that is mirrored in Tyr. Thus, maybe Tyr didn't "give up his godhood" in shame when the spellplague occurred. Maybe it was stripped from him. Maybe when he appeared in Faerun, it was also when he was exiled from Maztica, and he respun himself using a new name? Thus, he would be the "shadow" of Tezca... the part that doesn't crave sacrifices, but is willing to sacrifice himself.
Now, am I saying that realmspace should have had four previous suns? By no means. This idea could have happened in different crystal spheres with these entities. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 09:48:51
If anyone is not a "real" being it would be Leira herself. An illusion of a goddess, the ultimate deception of faith.
Remember these dusty old scrolls ...
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17479
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20236
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17800
Remember that Leira's power was claimed by Cyric, who then explicitly claimed the portfolio of deception and the title "Prince/God of Lies". He apparently did so by slaying her with the sword Godsbane, itself an avatar of Mask, apparently causing the powers and portfolios of all three of these deities to become blurred and rearranged (although not fully evident until after Mask and Cyric were both divested of some divine power and things settled down).
I note that, for whatever reason, scrolls which discuss Leira very often also discuss Cyric, Mask, Shar, Talos, Malar, and other evil deities. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 09:18:25
Every mythology and every religion in our world, ancient or modern, has strongly asserted that any other/foreign gods it recognizes/rejects are almost invariably "false", "evil", and "chaotic". But our world doesn't fit neatly into a 9-peg D&D alignment system, the fine definitions and meanings of "evil" and "chaotic", along with "good" and "lawful/ordered", have been (and still are) argued by theologians and philosophers from many civilizations. There's enough of an overlap in normal usage and layman vocabulary that even today many D&D players (especially new D&D players) remain confused by apparent contradictions like "Chaotic Good" and "Lawful Evil".
I stated "evil" and you stated "chaotic" because that's how it's been stated in the 4E sourcebooks. I realize that primordials are not so simply categorized, yet that's how the lore tends to categorize them. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 07:26:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
While, of course, the mere fact that (4E) primordials are positioned to challenge established and beloved deities suggests that primordials are all categorically evil.
Primordials aren't evil. Primordials are chaotic. Not in the sense of alignement, but in the sense that they represent change and the eternal process of death and rebirth. This puts them at odds with gods, because gods, at least in 4e, represent stability, permanence, order. And this don't necessarily means "lawful", because gods such as Gruumsh, who is chaotic evil, fought on the side of stability during the Dawn War. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 06:20:36
Well, Ed says "all priests, religions, and gods lie... gods most of all"
They couldn't function without her. She's actually the goddess of truth... truths she has learned to 'keep close to her chest'.
Imagine a government that couldn't lie to its people. It wouldn't even be able to function. Now imagine how much worse it would be if mortals knew any sort of truths about the universe... the gods just aren't having that.
The greatest joke of all is that Leira - and the 'loths - beings who are known to be the biggest liars - are really the biggest keepers of the truth. You see, most liars tell their lies so often they start to believe them, even gods. But not beings who's very fabric is lies. When you hold dominion over lies, you also get to know what all the truths are. Two sides of the same coin.
And since you mentioned Ubtao, did we ever find out what Eshadow really was? For a time I thought it was an alias of Shar's, but the whole story there is very fuzzy. In fact, it still makes a lot of sense, if we just keep Ed's lore pristine and ignore some newer stuff (I am pretty sure Toril itself is shar's prison at this point).
But what I don't know is, was Shar ever a real being to begin with?
Or is that just Selūne down in that cell, rocking back & forth in her straight-jacket, talking to her 'imaginary friend'? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 05:17:16
Leira has never been portrayed as an evil goddess, though. I think because 1E "required" illusionists (then a separate class, not a specialty) to revere Leira, at least implicitly, and while illusionists could certainly be evil the rules of (A)D&D were written to encourage heroism based around good (or at least neutral) player alignments. While, of course, the mere fact that (4E) primordials are positioned to challenge established and beloved deities suggests that primordials are all categorically evil.
Lies and deceptions are intrinsically evil in the strictest sense; they're dishonest and false and misleading. But they can range from absolutely malign exploitations to relatively benign manipulations. An infinitude of white lies and common deceptions are employed for trivial, harmless, diplomatic, or well-intentioned reasons. "Don't tell your mother about this surprise", "This illusionary wall will hide our treasure from thieves", "Oh, I agree completely so let's move on now to something else", etc.
It's a slippery slope, but perhaps Leira represents the more general class of deceptions which includes merely fooling people into believing or perceiving false truths, not the specific class of deceptions which are ultimately meant to cause harm or serve villainous and selfish goals through others. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 13:10:59
It can be the contrary, though. Primordials seem to be older than gods (especially in FR: they are stated to be existing before Shar and Selūne appeared in Realmspace), and especially way older than Leira, as she is younger than those two. It can be that Ubtao was the original liar, and Leira her faithful disciple. Even more, this relationship master-disciple between Ubtao and Leira is what made Ubtao turn on the primordials in the end, because he began to get along with the other gods... mmm... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 13:04:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Perhaps she taught him how to deceive?
Thus, even though Leira should be counted among the 'evil' powers (both Asmodeus - as 'the devil' - and Cyric are called 'The Prince of Lies'), she is accepted among the goodly ones because of her past help against the Primodials (basically, she trained Ubtao in how to be a double-agent).
Thats all I got.
Yeah, this is kind of what I was going with in my head... especially the part about "this is why the other gods put up with her BS".... and the part about her being some kind of special agent herself who in the end "does things" to serve Ao. For instance, did she "turn" Ubtao to the estelar? Did she insinuate herself enough that she effectively used maybe blackmail to force Ubtao to turn against the primordials? Did she instead manufacture evidence that made Ubtao think that his fellow primordials had betrayed him? Did she in fact uncover some TRUTH and reveal it to Ubtao (and thus the great Liar's greatest strength is sometimes the truth)? Will we find out that Ubtao/Qotal/Quetzcoatal is in fact the child of Jazirian and Asmodeus (and that Asmodeus was the woman... dun da dun.....  )!?!?
Not sure where or how to spin it, but I'll keep churning the concept. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 22:22:23
Perhaps she taught him how to deceive?
Thus, even though Leira should be counted among the 'evil' powers (both Asmodeus - as 'the devil' - and Cyric are called 'The Prince of Lies'), she is accepted among the goodly ones because of her past help against the Primodials (basically, she trained Ubtao in how to be a double-agent).
Thats all I got. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 18:36:27
Liars get along well? Maybe...? |
| Gyor |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 17:44:43
Ones a Goddess, the other a Primordial. |
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