| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ocule |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 18:29:47
So trying to get more information on surface dwelling Drow particularly those who follow the dark dancer. Resources seem scarce on any solid information so far I found that they have an embassy in Evermeet but seem to occupy about 47% of the population of Cormanthyr in the current year. I am kicking around some story ideas involving them currently so any of those would be appreciated as well. It would definitely make justifying playing a pc drow much less special by saying there are others in the world who are not evil, get rid of some of that special snowflake stigma.
But yeah, is there any information on what their society structure is like, do they have a capital city for those on Faerun? what territories do they occupy and how are their relations with other surface dwellers. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 03:42:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ultoksamrin is an underdark city (beneath the Marching Mountains in Calimshan) of Vhaeraun worshippers, but they do not beahev in an overly evil manner - they are even looking for surface allies 9including surface elves0 to help them fight Lolth-worshipping drow.
I realize this is a thread about surface-dwelling Eilistraee worshipers, but the fact remains that she is NOT the only option for drow leaning toward good. Ultoksamrin is neutral leaning towards good. Vhaeraun may be a bit of a jerk, but his followers don't have to be. I think they just want to get out from under the yolk of the Lolth-enforced matriarchy. If Eilistraee would be a little less sexist, her and Vhaeraun's followers would make excellent allies (and I say that because she's not all that different from her mom when it comes to which sex she thinks should be running things).
I'm not saying that Eilistraee is the only option (I even explicitly said that, but I'm not aware of any canon non-evil surface drow community that isn't related to Eilistraee). I'm saying that her call is very powerful indeed, because it represents all the things that I've explained in my previous posts and that strike a deep chord within the drow. All of them feel Eilistraee's song at some point in their lives, those are Ed's words, and he clearly stated to have created Eilistraee as part of his own Realms, so that's not some WotC/TSR-enforced stuff. It also makes sense, since Eilistraee is the goddess who chose to share the fate of her people when she was but a girl, to be by their side in the times of need, who sees their beauty when everyone else would see them as monsters, striving to make it flourish once again. And she never gave up, even when standing against foes far more powerful than her (alone at that), or even when the drow themselves would "wound" her. This kind of stuff tends to build bonds.
As for sexism, I personally like that Eilistraeean communities tend to be good matriarchies, because I like that her priestesses are intended to be this extension of Eilistraee's mothering of the drow as a race, helping their people to find their own path in the world, and to flourish despite all the hostilities. A matriarchal society doesn't need to be negative. Besides, things should be changing in the current era, as more and more males join the clergy (and therefore become leaders). Even in the past, while males didn't usually become leaders, that was because they most often didn't become clerics, and that wasn't impossible either
As for the Vhaeraunites, they clearly are not good. Some of them might be neutral, many can look for mutual profit deals with surfacers, but they also ruthlessly deal in slavery and other nasty stuff, which definitely puts them not in the good camp, and endangers their relationship with most surfacers (also undoing all the work that the followers of Eilistraee do to build friendships with them). Their ultimate goal is the restoration of Ilythiir and the return of the drow to their golden age (and while that makes them quite deep and very interesting villains, it still makes them villain--since their goal also implies leading the drow to rule over all other races). In any case, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have indeed reached a truce after their return, and their followers might cooperate against the Lothite. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 03:19:24
Ultoksamrin is an underdark city (beneath the Marching Mountains in Calimshan) of Vhaeraun worshippers, but they do not beahev in an overly evil manner - they are even looking for surface allies 9including surface elves0 to help them fight Lolth-worshipping drow.
I realize this is a thread about surface-dwelling Eilistraee worshipers, but the fact remains that she is NOT the only option for drow leaning toward good. Ultoksamrin is neutral leaning towards good. Vhaeraun may be a bit of a jerk, but his followers don't have to be. I think they just want to get out from under the yolk of the Lolth-enforced matriarchy. If Eilistraee would be a little less sexist, her and Vhaeraun's followers would make excellent allies (and I say that because she's not all that different from her mom when it comes to which sex she thinks should be running things). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 23:39:35
Question 3
No, the Moon can't be seen from the Promenade. However, the Moondancers of that temple can travel to the surface through their Moonsong. The Dancing Dell, within the Ardeep forest, used to be their main dancing place. They also use that magic to help drow caravans trade with the surface (like explained above).
Questions 4 and 5
I'm personally not aware of significant, *non-evil*, surface drow communities that are unrelated to Eilistraee. I'm sure that groups of non evil, non-Eilistraeean drow exist, but the song of the goddess is something that all drow feel at some point in their lives, and it is a powerful call. It's likely that most drow that choose to leave Lolth behind for a non-evil existence, would embrace a goddess that loves them (especially given that the drow are a very religious people by nature).
Other surface communities do exist, but they are often related to Vhaeraun, who is evil (even the drow in the Forest of Mir that Markustay mentioned, are in large part related to him IIRC).
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| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 23:38:25
Question 2
Examples of communities that have managed to intergrate themselves with other races are the drow in Velarswood, Raven's Bluff, and Elventree. I've described them in my pdf (the section about Shrines and Places of Worship).
The paths that the followers of Eilistraee take to integrate themselves with the other races are varied, but they all focus on showing that the drow can create, not just destroy (or self-destruct).Be it by offering help and protection against dangers (especially evil drow), or by lifting hearts with their arts and the beauty that they can create, or providing food and shelter to travelers or communities, or yet by trade, or providing particular skills that other races can find useful (example: dealing with Underdark threats). It is difficult, considering the prejudice that is held against the drow, and that the Eilistraeean themselves can be quite jumpy, in fear of being attacked or that their communities are endangered by strangers who have learned about them. However, this has happened in the past (and is happening right in the current era, in the 1490s DR).
In many cases, (Evermeet, Raven's Bluff, now Waterdeep), the followers of Eilistraee choose to approach particular individuals within other races' communities, people that are more open-minded, and able to help the drow become part of that community. The Eilistraeeans work to gain their sponsorship, by explaining their cause and goal, by offering their art, their magic, or exotic items to trade, or profitable deals. Once such support is gained, they try to settle and integrate within the community. In Raven's Bluff, Rebekkah Darklyte and her fellow Dark Dancers used their story and arts route to fascinate a powerful noble family (the Yarvandar), and exchanged rare drow goods (gained through the control of an Underdark trading route) for their favor. The drow received resources to build a shrine within the city, and a shelter within the Yarvandar mansion, from where to observe and learn about the humans. Once the shrine was complete, the followers of the Dark Maiden immediately set to work to feed, clothe, and heal the poor of Raven's Bluff. This led to different reactions, and to various accidents, but ultimately the drow managed to maintain a presence in the city (more info can be found in the pdf).
In other cases, the coexistence between the Eilistraeeans and other races can be a simple consequence of what they usually do. For example, patrolling the land in search for people in need and threats to contain (like Eilistraee teaches them to do). Healing and sheltering a wounded stranger can be the start of a friendship between the various races (that seems to be the case of Velarswood, where the drow are friends of a nearby human community). The same can happen were a stranger to happen upon one of the sacred dances of the Eilistraeeans and become fascinated by their art, or if a band of Eilistraeeans comes to help people from a nearby settlement against a dangerous threat (like a group of drow raiders). Things like this can be the beginning of an alliance. It's what happened with the elves that regularly come to patrol Darkmaiden's leap (a sacred place to Eilistraee), or (I assume) with the elves of Elventree, in Cormanthor. The followers of Eilistraee live alongside the elves and other races there, and one of their priestesses used to be the advisor of the lord of Elventree himself (I guess, in no small part, because of the healing magic that they could provide, and because of the help that they provided against the evil drow of Cormanthor).
Eilistraeeans actively promote drow trade on the surface when they can. They offer guides and their Moonsong spell allow them to provide fast travel between the Underdark and the surface. They do that because they know that trade is key to help their people integrate with other races, and to make it clear that the drow presence in a region can be profitable. It is also positive, because a more lively trade encourages more drow to travel to the surface, therefore far from Lolth's influence and closer to Eilistraee's (as they are way more likely to hear Eilistraee's song when near the surface). The drow of the Promenade used to do this (they still should, now that it has been retaken).
Adventurers are travelers are of vital importance for this as well. The followers of the Dark Maiden do help them because they feel that it is the right thing to do, but they can also spread knowledge and understanding that the drow can be good friends to have (and having a friend in an adventurer can always help, especially if you can provide some reward to gain their help).
Followers of Eilistraee also have a seasonal ritual/mission, that consists of actively making themselves known to elven and human settlements, trying to form new friendships:
quote:
All those who don't naturally have silvery hair use particular boiled leaves and berries to paint their hair of that color; and those who are not drow use natural colors to paint their bodies black. They then travel to the surface world, going where they are strangers, reaching to elven and other races' communities to bring them food, joy (through music and dance), kindness, and help of various kind. They take a great risk, given that drow may be attacked on sight in many regions of Faerûn, and rely on their kindness, song, and (in the worst cases) magic and skill with the sword to not be slain. The Eilistraeeans don't preach their faith during these travels: they embark on these journeys to show that drow can be rightful, non-evil inhabitants of Faerûn, and because they think that it is the right thing to do. A Run usually lasts a month (or somewhat more), but they can also go on for a whole season or year (very rarely more than that, unless complications arise). The faithful often use this time to also learn the typical songs and recipes of the places and settlements that they visit.
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| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 23:35:26
@Ocule Forgive me for any kind of spelling errors or other cases of bad English, but English is not my first language, and I'm dead tired atm (today was awful at work). I tried to bring all the info I have about their society in the same place. I hope that this is better suited to what you're looking for.
Question 1
Most followers of the Dark Maiden form small communities tied by the common faith and goals, and by the need of mutual protection in a world that is hostile to them. Many of them are places of worship of Eilistraee, that the priestesses also use as homes and shelters for the drow (or other people that they rescue). The "moondancers" in these communities tend to be tied by a strong sense of sisterhood/brotherhood, and learn to care for each other. There is not a single model that you can apply to all communities (and many of them are Eilistraee-dominated, rather than purely devoted to the Dark Dancer, because they tend to also be home to members of other races, and because most Faerunian people are polytheists), but they do share some traits.
Organization and roles: The structure of those communities is very simple. They tend to be matriarchies, where the priestesses are the decision makers. Hierarchy is however loose, even more so among the priestesses themselves (for example, the word of a higher ranked priestess is seen more as advice from an elder sibling, than as an order). They don't take decisions alone either: they listen to the opinions and suggestions of their fellow followers of the Dark Maiden before acting, and when a decision related to a specific field has to be taken, they ask for advice to those who have experience in it (males often act as ''spot-experts'' of this kind).
Role of the priestesses: "Moondancers" who are led to the surface are often guided and brought to safety by the priestesses of the Dark Maiden (as they regularly perform missions in the Underdark to find any drow in need and help them. Some even live within Lolthite cities, masquerading themselves, trying to find any dark elf who might be wishing for a different life and to aid them in gaining their freedom). It's logical to assume that someone who is a stranger to the surface world, will see the same women (and men) who helped them survive, as a comforting, guiding presence. In fact, Ed Greenwood always meant Eilistraee to be a mother-goddess for the drow, one who would not only help them to rediscover the joy and love that they were denied, to find their path in life, but also to grow and flourish as a people in the surface world. A lot of drow feel lost when first coming to the surface, they do not know what expect, they could very well have trouble even survivng, reliably finding food, etc... To help them embrace a more hopeful life, Eilistraee needs to teach them how to prosper in a world that has become hostile to them, but that is their rightful home. Priestesses of Eilistraee are therfore designed to be an extension of the Dark Maiden's mothering of the whole race, as they too not only need to be there to offer hope, warmth, and guidance, but also to help the drow with this "re-learning" process, to protect them and help them survive (through things like swordwork, healing, hunting, food-gathering, gardening, cooking, etc...). Healing/soothing magic, of course, is a huge part of the role that they play in their society (like it'd be in any). In short, the priestesses tend to be the guides, healers, teachers (diplomats too), within Eilistraeean communities (but, again, it's not a fixed rule and exceptions can exist). They need to nurture the drow under their care like the goddess would.
Lay followers of Eilistraee, both female and male, dedicate themselves to all other tasks. Gathering herbs/food, defense, being advisors, scouting/patrolling. That's not to say that priestesses don't do these things too, tho--as I said above, they are meant to participate in them--(for example, the Darksong Knights are basically warrior-priestesses), but the tasks are obviously distributed. Males rarely achieve positions of leadership (since males rarely are priests), but skilled male drow often hold positions as experts in their field, and are either decision makers for those matters (for example, Elkantar Iluim used to be the main commander of the forces of the Promenade), or their word carries a lot of weight within their area of expertise.
Resources: Eilistraeean communities should be self sufficient— as I said, the priestesses need to be trained in food gathering, hunting, and survival skills, and need to be able to provide sustenance for the community itself. They also craft weapons, tools and armor. Even tho trade has its importance for their goal (see question 2), for many smaller shrines it is not often a reliable option—due to the positions of the shrines, jumpy reactions to drow presence, and so on. So, these communities are often built in places that offer that kind of resources (for example, in glades near water streams and mineral veins). Entrances to the Underdark and/or other races' settlements are also frequent chosen locations, because it allows the Dark Dancers to look and rescue more drow in the Underdark, and establish friendship with other races.For certain communities/groups of Eilistraeean drow, trade is indeed an option, tho. They have access to exotic items (either because of some contacts, or because there are artisans among them) and control trade routes within the Underdark or with the Surface (example: the drow of Raven's Bluff).
Defense: As you'd expect, these small communities are quite vulnerable (that's one of the rason why the Moondancers tend to live within forests, in addition to the fact that it helps for their sunlight sensitivity). The only defenses consis of the magic and martial skills of the drow, and various kinds of wards are employed by the priestesses to protect their shrines (I expect mostly illusions spells, or mind affecting spells). However, many of the shrines are also connected though a network of portals that allow for warriors to be relocated if their support is needed (or the endangered community to flee). Eilistraee has an interesting kind magic for that. Every land, place, or creature sings a unique song when it is lit by the moon. Her followers can learn to listen to this song, sing it on their own and summon beams of moonlight that can teleport people and items to any place where the moon shines. The net of portals seems to be based on that (esepcially the "Moonspring", which I described in my pdf, and this allows them to teleport from the Underdark to the Surface). Alongside those portals, the Eilistraeeans also seem to have control over certain Underdark tunnels (like the routes that I mentioned above), and they use them to help the drow escape to the surface, or to reach underground drow settlements from their shrines.
Family/Love Unions: I'll quote this from the pdf that i wrote.
quote:
Eilistraee teaches to the drow the strength that there is in love, and they learn to embrace this sentiment in its entirety (not only in its physicality). Like for their Lolthite kind, or even for the elves, many relationships are but temporary. However--differently from the societies of the Spider Queen, where noble females can freely take and discard male partners, or where marriage is always transient and a matter of business—the followers of the Dark Maiden do have the concept of stable marriage, called Love-binding, in which they call the goddess to bless their love and union.
There are no barriers limiting marriage or relationship between any followers of the goddess (including race or gender), or between the Sword Dancers and lay worshipers (and Eilistraee hasn't expressed any preference for her clergy to take a steady companion, or not). However, there is a large number of clerics who prefer to not be bound to a steady partner, and that may be for personal reasons, because their missions would make it difficult, or because they might see married life as time-consuming and a distraction from their devotion to the Dark Maiden and her cause.
The part about children is not canon, but something that I assumed based on their ideals and the structure of their communities (including Eilistraee always being very careful to not force any choice on her people).
quote:
Not unlike in Lolthite houses and merchant families, children are raised as a community effort among the Eilistraeeans. While there can be families composed by a married couple and their offspring, that's not the standard situation, and in either case the concept of family is broader than that intended in our modern society. A child will of course be more attached to their parents (or mother, when the father is unknown), who will tend to their necessities. However, the family extends to all the members of the community, who provide training to the children in their different areas of proficiency, and also look after them (for example, priests and priestesses may teach magic, swordplay, or how to play instruments, etc..).
Little drow can therefore grow up in a warm and nurturing environment, learning the value of mutual protection and of working together. Nonetheless, they are also taught caution (especially in trusting others), to guard, fend off for, and feed themselves, given the threats that the surface world can pose to a drow.
Children are taught about Eilistraee and all that she stands for, and they too partake in the joyful rituals in her honor. However, if they wish so, they are completely free to choose their faith, once they are old enough to think for themselves and express their opinion.
Prisoners: Slavery is abhored and actively fought. Even prisoners are not to be commanded around, but treated with respect (albeit closely guarded). This is true for Lolthite prisoners too. They are usually provided cures (when needed), food, and a refuge, but are closely guarded and made to work for the hospitality. However, they are also shown what it is to be free. The hope is that, by understanding and experiencing first hand a new life and the embrace of the goddess, a feeling of belonging and sisterhood, they will too make this choice (one that comes from their understanding, not one that is forced through fear).
Beauty/Art: Art, beauty, and celebration--especially song and dance--have a central role in the Eilistraeean communities. When you're trying to redeem a people who has lived surrounded by oppression and cruelty, stripped of hopes and dreams (since the Lolthite society is extremely rigid and teaches you that only 1 and 1 thing is relevant), you can't really get them to redeem by telling them to repent. You need to show them all that they've been missing on in life, to open their eyes and help them embrace all that. It is a deeply alluring call to many of them, and this celebration of life and beauty is one of the tools that Eilistraee has to change her people. The sheer joy of existence, the freedom to chase their dreams to their heart content, of taking back their life. This is a very strong part of the song that Eilistraee (quite literally) sings to all drow to lure them towards a different existence, because art, joy, music, dance are all perfect ways to express and embrace that "rebirth" and renewal, their casting off their chains, and rediscovering a kind of life that they had forgotten (even more so because dance has always been culturally important and powerful to the drow).
Art is also the best tool to express oneself, it's free-form expression at its best, and for the drow—who have to wear masks upon masks to live though a web of intrigues—it is liberating. It is also a key part of their bond with Eilistraee: for example, each night, they let out all their emotions and feelings of the day in a free-form (often accompanied by a song) intimate message for the goddess herself to listen. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 22:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And then there are the quasi-canonical drow of Akota. The drow and the city are Al-Qadim canon, but their connection is more fan-lore (there are drow living on the surface all over that region, who worship a spider-goddess, and then we have 'Akota' with an arrow pointing off in that same direction off the edge of the maps, so either there are humans, etc., living there who have no problem with all the drow living around them, or thats a drow city... and port).
They are said to live off the edge of the maps? 
Anyway, there are explicit mentions of places - the drow (specifically Lolthites) live and fight the duergar somewhere near Ajayib and/or Al-Suqut mountains, some sort of drow can be encountered in Moradask (but only skulking around in the shadows), and possibly drow have built the towers of Rog'osto.
Somewhere westward of Pearl Cities is most likely to mean the same Al-Suqut mountains. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 21:03:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule
Sure, the portions I found difficult to find where the bits regarding non evil drow societies and how they interact with the rest of Faerun.
What i find EXTREMELY interesting is that in most cases (and I can think of like 50 off the top of my head), whenever 'monsters' stop getting treated as such, they behave amicably (or, at least, no worse than 'bad humans' do).
The single biggest example of this is in Zakhara, where EVERYONE (sentient beings) are treated as 'people', and judged as individuals, on their own merits. They don't differentiate between the different groups of demihumans who live among them, and wonder-of-wonders, between the humanoids either (although they are extremely wary of the Yakfolk, who are like their version of the Drow). There is a fairly large group of 'surface drow' living in Zakhara, and although they are isolationist from the rest of the country, there is no known hostile interaction, either. Nothing above the typical 'tribal' disputes (this is our property, leave... NOW!) They do not behave any differently (as far as we know) then any other group of desert tribesmen (although they do not appear to be nomads). So in Zakhara, everyone is treated with respect, until they prove they are unworthy of that respect. And the races that are typically considered 'monsters' (like Drow), act respectful in turn.
I think General Vraak (you know - the Orc King Azoun gave a medal of honor to) said it best: "If you treat us like monsters, we BE monsters!" |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 15:35:18
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule
Yeah its kind of hard to sift through I've been looking at the wiki. Although it seems to beat me over the head about being inclusive and accepting and all that. I mean I get it but think I might emphasize freedom, travelers, redemption and art portfolios for her, maybe nature to it. Might play with the idea of giving the drow more of an established settlement maybe growing into a proper city.
They have tried that, multiple times, with varying degrees of success. In Raven's Bluff, in Evermeet, in Cormanthor (Elventree, for example), and they are currently doing that in Waterdeep, as a new Eilistraeean community and temple is forming there, sponsored by the Harpers. Unless you mean to build a city from scratch, in which case the restored Rhymanthiin might be what you're looking for (I tried to include possible plot hooks for that in my document).
In my work, I also tried to put emphasis on Eilistraee's goal to help the drow forge their own path in the world, rediscover the joy of life that they have forgotten, and to build strong relationships with other races. I'm sorry that it wasn't useful or difficult to use. Would you mind telling me what made it hard to use, so that I can work on it?
Sure, the portions I found difficult to find where the bits regarding non evil drow societies and how they interact with the rest of Faerun. I found a lot of the information on Eilistraee very helpful in imagining how her followers view the world and how they interact with others from their perspective. But the only part on societies was that they seem to form small communities around shrines to Eilistraee but not so much on how their communities work. Questions I left with which could just be because I was at work when I was reading.
1) How are their societies structured? Who is in charge, do priests lead the society or do they have another leader.
2) What are some major settlements that they have, and how do they integrate with non drow communities in the area such as cormanthyr and myth drannor.
3) Promenade of the Dark Maiden, couldn't find much about this settlement it was the only major one I saw. Can they even see the moon from there.
4) Do all non evil drow communities follow the dark maiden? Or even follow her tenants.
5) Probably not related but drow communities unrelated to Eilistraee
IIRC, I included the answer to the first 3 questions in my pdf (the sections about their societ, and the one abut their shrines/temples). I'll answer to those questions once I get home from work, tho. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 15:30:52
Oh, also from the same resource, I liked this concept when I first read it, though I must admit to never using it. However, I have had weapons that spouted poetry, lectured like a teacher on ancient history, and of course, treated the character as his "apprentice" by offering advice like "keep your shield up" and "you need to snap your wrist more on the swing". In 5e, it might be better to describe some of the abilities below in terms of bardic abilities. For instance, perhaps the sword can enact the "Countercharm" ability of bards by expending a "charge". Then maybe various singing swords can use a "charge" to enact some 3rd level bardic inspiration per day (such as cutting words or combat inspiration). The swords would be like wands and renew a certain number of charges per day. Enacting these ability may require activation using a bonus action by the wielder, or if the weapon is intelligent, perhaps it can activate it itself.
Singing Swords
XP Value: 1,600 GP Value: 10,000
The favored weapons of priests of Eilistraee are singing swords. Some are sentient and aligned to chaotic good, but most can be wielded by any being capable of lifting them. A singing sword is a silver bastard sword +3 that sings constantly and loudly when unsheathed. When and if silenced, the weapon loses its attack and damage bonuses. Its song makes its wielder more confident, so she need never make any morale checks while using the singing sword. The sword also renders its wielder immune to charm, command, confusion, fear, friends, repulsion, scare, and suggestion. If emotion is cast on the wielder, the only result is rage directed at the caster of the emotion spell.
The sword's song also negates the songs of harpies, stills shriekers, and can entrance creatures of 2 Hit Dice or less (except undead beings or creatures from other planes). Such creatures must succeed at a saving throw vs. spell whenever they are within 60 feet of the song or be subject to an automatically successful suggestion from the sword wielder. This suggestion ability functions as the spell of the same name. Note that the sword wielder can enact a different suggestion on each creature affected. Also note that a bard can easily negate this latter power of the blade by singing a countersong. |
| Ocule |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 14:38:34
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule
Yeah its kind of hard to sift through I've been looking at the wiki. Although it seems to beat me over the head about being inclusive and accepting and all that. I mean I get it but think I might emphasize freedom, travelers, redemption and art portfolios for her, maybe nature to it. Might play with the idea of giving the drow more of an established settlement maybe growing into a proper city.
They have tried that, multiple times, with varying degrees of success. In Raven's Bluff, in Evermeet, in Cormanthor (Elventree, for example), and they are currently doing that in Waterdeep, as a new Eilistraeean community and temple is forming there, sponsored by the Harpers. Unless you mean to build a city from scratch, in which case the restored Rhymanthiin might be what you're looking for (I tried to include possible plot hooks for that in my document).
In my work, I also tried to put emphasis on Eilistraee's goal to help the drow forge their own path in the world, rediscover the joy of life that they have forgotten, and to build strong relationships with other races. I'm sorry that it wasn't useful or difficult to use. Would you mind telling me what made it hard to use, so that I can work on it?
Sure, the portions I found difficult to find where the bits regarding non evil drow societies and how they interact with the rest of Faerun. I found a lot of the information on Eilistraee very helpful in imagining how her followers view the world and how they interact with others from their perspective. But the only part on societies was that they seem to form small communities around shrines to Eilistraee but not so much on how their communities work. Questions I left with which could just be because I was at work when I was reading.
1) How are their societies structured? Who is in charge, do priests lead the society or do they have another leader.
2) What are some major settlements that they have, and how do they integrate with non drow communities in the area such as cormanthyr and myth drannor.
3) Promenade of the Dark Maiden, couldn't find much about this settlement it was the only major one I saw. Can they even see the moon from there.
4) Do all non evil drow communities follow the dark maiden? Or even follow her tenants.
5) Probably not related but drow communities unrelated to Eilistraee |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 14:26:00
There was a group of E worshippers in the Chondalwood according to one of the novels involving the E v/s the spider queen trilogy (whatever it was called).
Below is from Demihuman deities, and there's more information on fallen places that they used to exist.
Aboveground temples of Eilistraee are known to exist in the Moonwood north of the village of Quaervarr and at the northern end of the Velarwood in Harrowdale. The Mouth of Song, as the former temple is known, is located in a cavemouth beneath a treeless hill-atop which the dark elven priests and a few halfelven and elven faithful from Silverymoon dance in a great ring on moonlit nights-a day's travel north of Quaervarr. The Shadowtop Glade, as the latter temple is known, is located in a series of caves that line both sides of a steep-sided overgrown gully dominated by a grove of towering shadowtop trees. Dark elven priests of the temple armed with enchanted silver swords
and moon-worshiping lycanthropes from the nearby Howling Hill join together to conduct sacred hunts to Eilistraee and Selune when the moon is full. Smaller shrines of the Dark Maiden have been spotted in the Misty Forest, the High Forest (where the Dark Ladies are led by Ysolde Veladorn, daughter of Qilue), the Forest of Shadows, the Lake Sember region, the Grey Forest, the Forest of Lethyr, the Yuirwood, and the Chondalwood. Hidden temples of Eilistraee may exist in the hearts of such forests as well. Temples of the Dark Maiden are conspicuously absent on Evermeet, the Green Isle, despite the recent rapprochement engendered by the dark elven ambassador, Lady Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 10:40:00
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Ed has previously said here that about 1 in 10 drow actually worship Eilistraee. And that's in drow cities throughout the Underdark, not counting dedicated communities on the surface. So Eilistraee's worshipper base is actually huge. Nowhere near Lloth's of course, but still huge.
Not quite.
(link to Ed's clarification with numbers)
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In 5e, the drow are no longer "shoot on sight", depending on the region at least. For example, after Eilistraee personally appeared near Waterdeep, many of her drow followers are heading towards the city, and a temple to the goddess is being built within the city itself with the sponsorship of the Harpers. Up to now, you have some unhappy people, but nothing more,
So... pretty much how it was in Ravens Bluff around 1370?
quote:
The brown drow are nowhere to be seen in the current era. It makes sense, tho, given that--if you go by the numbers--only a minority of the followers of Eilistraee were transformed, and only a few hundreds at that, scattered over Faerun. Some also died due to, you know, being in the Underdark, within drow cities, as non-drow, without drow senses or abilities.
And obvious as such, too.
Psst, we got a thread with pie throwing fight over this and other LP derp already (link in media res).
quote:
Honestly, IMO, that uncursing never had any place in the Realms, at least not if associated in any way with Eilistraee.
If a source fails to make sense, what else one can do?
quote:
I could see someone like Corellon wanting that, but not Eilistraee
I could see the drow dropping poisonous barbs like "Heh, what do you want? They are gods of incompetent fools in the first place. Should be no surprise when they are dooming those whom they try to help, or helping those whom they try to doom <sits in the air and raises an eyebrow>." |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 03:27:14
In 5e, the drow are no longer "shoot on sight", depending on the region at least. For example, after Eilistraee personally appeared near Waterdeep, many of her drow followers are heading towards the city, and a temple to the goddess is being built within the city itself with the sponsorship of the Harpers. Up to now, you have some unhappy people, but nothing more,
The brown drow are nowhere to be seen in the current era. It makes sense, tho, given that--if you go by the numbers--only a minority of the followers of Eilistraee were transformed, and only a few hundreds at that, scattered over Faerun. Some also died due to, you know, being in the Underdark, within drow cities, as non-drow, without drow senses or abilities. With that few brown drow, virtually indistinguishable from wood elves, scattered across Faerun, with the majority of Eilistraee's followers still being drow, it makes sense that the transformed drow had little to no impact. Eilistraee herself also seemed to withdraw her blessing or interfere with the ritual in the novels, perhaps because this "uncursing" had absolutely nothing to do with her, and even went against all she believes in.
First, it did nothing, it literally only changed the skin color of the recipients. They could already go to Arvandor (Eilistraee's realm) or whatever.
Second, undoing a ten thousand years-old spell has never been the Dark Maiden's (or her follower's) goal (or the reason why the drow join Eilistraee's dance: to further support that, the goddess herself chose to be drow, one of them, and has been since basically forever). Eilistraee doesn't care about the curse. In her lore that has never been mentioned, not once. Instead, she has a positive attitude: in everything about her, you see that she just wants the drow to rediscover the joy of life that they were denied, to give new life to that spark that she sees within them even when everyone else sees them as monsters, to set their dreams aflame once again.
She is like a mother goddess to the *drow* as a whole race, to help them flourish again, take back their lives and homes, not force them to change their race. If she had ever wanted to remove the curse, she'd just have worked towards it. Instead, she never made a move, she has never cared. In over 10k+ in-universe years (and 20+ years of existing in the published Realms), she never nudged any of her followers towards it, she never spoke about that (except in that one single novel that has now been reverted). She has always encouraged her followers to go out, create their path--as drow--celebrate life, and freely express what they are. And rightfully so, because when you are born as a drow, why would you be forced to give up on who you are?
To an individual who was born as such, ''drow'' isn't a curse, but simply their identity (and one that many are proud of). The followers of the Dark Maiden don't fight get rid of it (or to give to other drow the possibility to do so): they work to build their own place in the surface world that is their rightful home, to show that the drow can create, rather than only destroy. They want to bring a change and forge an actual future for their people.
That uncursing tries to turn all this, which is a beautiful concept, the *actual* redemption--rediscovering and relearning life, and then choosing a different path, like Eilistraee intends it--into "redeem yourself for being drow", and that simply stinks (even more so for a goddess like Eilistraee, who is so strong on acceptance and is explicitly stated to be very careful to always be gentle, even subtle, and never force any choice on mortals).
Honestly, IMO, that uncursing never had any place in the Realms, at least not if associated in any way with Eilistraee. I could see someone like Corellon wanting that, but not Eilistraee (and their relationship is even described as strained, over stuff like that). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 02:50:04
No, I know she lived there - it just doesn't say she came from their BEFORE going to the aid of those other drow. Buiyrandyn is only mentioned as the place she left from some time later, when she went to the Pit of Ghaunadaur.
We really have no idea how much time passed before the first thing Eilistraee had her do, and the second thing she had her do. It could have been soon after, or it could have been years later. I feel like a few years should have gone by at the very least, since they were children during the first 'quest', and were likely 'young adults' during the second.
However, given her mother was an 'outcast' herself, it does seem very plausible that Buiyrandyn was indeed the place her mother found to give birth to her, and this other group of 'nearby' drow were not of Buiyrandyn, but may have joined that settlement as well, after being aided (otherwise, I am not quite sure why any of that is even mentioned). Also, if Eilistraee and Mystra wanted her to have 'playmates', and those playmates were the kids given the swords and tasked to go help those other drow, than it stands to reason they were all already in Buiyrandyn.
I wasn't saying she definitely wasn't, I was just pointing out we had some wiggle-room lore-wise if we wanted it, just because the settlement isn't named until AFTER the first mission she went on. This is one of those rare instances I find a 'loophole in the lore', and have no intention of using it.
And BTW, to steer this a bit more back on-topic, there are other 'surface drow' who don't bother with eilistraee, or rather, they don't conform to what we normally think of when we think 'drow', down in the Forest of Mir in Calimshan. In fact, they ride small ponies around, like the Tuigan.
And then there are the quasi-canonical drow of Akota. The drow and the city are Al-Qadim canon, but their connection is more fan-lore (there are drow living on the surface all over that region, who worship a spider-goddess, and then we have 'Akota' with an arrow pointing off in that same direction off the edge of the maps, so either there are humans, etc., living there who have no problem with all the drow living around them, or thats a drow city... and port). Once again, not Eilistraee, but another example of drow living on the surface for many years. The ones in Cormanthor are fairly new (although perhaps, not anymore).
Are drow not 'shoot on sight' anymore? I recall Drizzt being worried about that happening. Do the 'less ebil' variety still look 'brown' (tan) as in 4e, or are they all back to being 'black' (blue-purple, etc) in 5e? Although the black skin coloring didn't make much sense from a RW subterranean perspective, it did make a lot of sense as a curse, in regards to elven physiology (they absorb sunlight for sustenance, and darker skin tones absorbs less sunlight). From a lore perspective I liked the idea that some drow had been 'redeemed', and the curse lifted, but from a RW perspective it just felt uncomfortable. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 23:30:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, Gnomish Dolblunde finally fell in 698 DR, so the timing would be perfect... if someone so inclined to use Doblunde in this fashion (not the whole thing - it was a city, so the 'tiny settlement of Buiyrandyn' would probably just be one neighborhood they restored). The gnomes finally abandon Dolblunde after several attacks, Disenfranchised drow find the place and create Buiyrandyn, Qilue leaves to go found the Promenade, then illithids attack Buiyrandyn and take it over (so the ruins of Dolblunde were their's by the end of the 1100's DR), and then Daurgothoth shows up and annihilates all the 'monsters' (illithids) - which is WELL within his power; he's the highest CR (50) in Dragons of Faerûn. Hell, even Larloch would think twice about messing with him.
I don't have the 4e sources of dragons, but supposedly he is mentioned in Draconimicon: Chromatic Dragons - out of curiousity, anyone know whats going on with himthese days? He was a Class 'A' super-threat.
Not to derail, BTW - I like the idea of expatriate drow having a settlement there (so on-topic in that regard), and thats why I was wondering if he was still there. 
EDIT:
I also just noticed something - Buiyrandyn may NOT be the settlement she came from originally. Its says she was first given the sword and commanded to take her friends and go help some other group drow, and then LATER she left Buiyrandyn when she was ordered to go to the Pit of Ghaunadaur and create the Promenade. Thus, she may have help found the settlement of Buiyrandyn with her fiends and those drow she saved. The way its worded, we don't actually know what settlement she was born in 9although use of the word 'nearby' would indicate that it had to e someplace in the vicinity of Buiyrandyn). Then again, nothings to say she didn't help those drow, and then they all wandered far and settled Buiyrandyn someplace else.
Maybe she wasn't born there, but she definitely dwelt there for a while as a child.
On Buiyrandyn/Doblunde as a possible drow settlement, if Daurgothot's actually occupying it, then there isn't much hope for the drow followers of Eilistraee to settle there. They would certainly not be able to defeat him, and they would not have anything of his interest either.
That I know, however, he is mentioned nowhere in 5e. He should still be somewhere out there, tho, there's no reason why he shouldn't. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 23:14:17
Markustay The quote I provided was from second edition. I missed an early quest. There again lore does get confusing. After all Qilue was impanted while her Drow mother was traveling looking for a safe place, her (what would have been normal Drow) died in during the travel. Mystra and Eilistraee cut the deal to allow Qilue to live after that. Clear it is that Qilue lived in Buiyrandyn for a time in order to develop playmates. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 22:50:39
Well, Gnomish Dolblunde finally fell in 698 DR, so the timing would be perfect... if someone so inclined to use Doblunde in this fashion (not the whole thing - it was a city, so the 'tiny settlement of Buiyrandyn' would probably just be one neighborhood they restored). The gnomes finally abandon Dolblunde after several attacks, Disenfranchised drow find the place and create Buiyrandyn, Qilue leaves to go found the Promenade, then illithids attack Buiyrandyn and take it over (so the ruins of Dolblunde were their's by the end of the 1100's DR), and then Daurgothoth shows up and annihilates all the 'monsters' (illithids) - which is WELL within his power; he's the highest CR (50) in Dragons of Faerûn. Hell, even Larloch would think twice about messing with him.
I don't have the 4e sources of dragons, but supposedly he is mentioned in Draconimicon: Chromatic Dragons - out of curiousity, anyone know whats going on with himthese days? He was a Class 'A' super-threat.
Not to derail, BTW - I like the idea of expatriate drow having a settlement there (so on-topic in that regard), and thats why I was wondering if he was still there.
EDIT:
I also just noticed something - Buiyrandyn may NOT be the settlement she came from originally. Its says she was first given the sword and commanded to take her friends and go help some other group of drow, and then LATER she left Buiyrandyn when she was ordered to go to the Pit of Ghaunadaur and create the Promenade. Thus, she may have help found the settlement of Buiyrandyn with her fiends and those drow she saved. The way its worded, we don't actually know what settlement she was born in (although use of the word 'nearby' would indicate that it had to e someplace in the vicinity of Buiyrandyn). Then again, nothings to say she didn't help those drow, and then they all wandered far and settled Buiyrandyn someplace else. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 22:26:25
quote:
Several years after
her birth in the Year of the Awakening Wyrm (767 DR), Qilue Veladorn,
Chosen of Mystra and Eilistraee, led a handful of her dark elven
playmates from their tiny, now-vanished settlement of Buiyrandyn in an
assault on the Pit of Ghaunadaur.
Not sure if 767 is birth year or year of assault.
Edit: 767 appears to be year of birth. As she lead playmates she clearly was not a full adult. Her age at time of assault likely 70 to 100 years in my opinion. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 22:07:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It would be interesting to locate Buiyrandyn on one of my maps - I had always assumed it would be somewhere in the vicinity of Undermountain. Maybe not actually near it, but 'around there' (like perhaps under the Sword Mountains, etc.). I was actually thinking the ruins of Dolblunde would have made a nice spot for it, but as of 1263 DR, the dracolich Daurgothoth has been lairing there, and I'm not sure if that would fit Qilue's timeline.
By 1263 Qilué had likely already left Buiyrandyn, since Eilistraee led her on her mission when she was young (so, even assuming 200 years old, we wouldn't even be in the 1000s IIRC). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 22:02:36
It would be interesting to locate Buiyrandyn on one of my maps - I had always assumed it would be somewhere in the vicinity of Undermountain. Maybe not actually near it, but 'around there' (like perhaps under the Sword Mountains, etc.). I was actually thinking the ruins of Dolblunde would have made a nice spot for it, but as of 1263 DR, the dracolich Daurgothoth has been lairing there, and I'm not sure if that would fit Qilue's timeline.
EDIT:
I just checked a few things, and although dates for any of Qilué's life are conspicuously absent (the only Qilué in the GHotR isn't even her!), I think Dolblunde could actually work, if we say that the dragon took the place away from the illithids that destroyed Buiyrandyn. All of that would have happened between 1263 DR and 1355 DR, when the Promenade was getting built. I can't find any dating for Daurgothoth either.
Of course, it would be easier just to say its in some previously unkown location as well. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 21:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
One thing that should be noted. There is very little lore about communities. In part because Eilistraee after the Crown Wars became a religion not trusted by Lolth Drow or and surface race because most of her followers were Drow.
That said Qilue Veladorn lived in the now-vanished drow
settlement of Buiyrandyn (a small, poor gathering of drow families too
small to be considered a city) that did compose of followers of Eilistraee. There is no details about this no longer existing community.
We know about the Promenade which is a garison part community. We also are told of a surface temple on the surface the receiving end of a portal from Menzoberranzan with little detail of that temple the last major temple that was is the Twisted
Tower.
We are told that many temples are simple glades that followers gather at as well.
Their communities tend to be quite varied, but we do have lore and examples of what they look like, their activities, rituals/traditions, and organization (example of surface communities are those in Cormanthor, like Velarswood or Elventree, the one in Raven's Bluff, Wildwinds Coven in the High Forest, the one in the Misty Forest...). We also have examples of how they approach other races or other drow. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 21:38:55
One thing that should be noted. There is very little lore about communities. In part because Eilistraee after the Crown Wars became a religion not trusted by Lolth Drow or and surface race because most of her followers were Drow.
That said Qilue Veladorn lived in the now-vanished drow
settlement of Buiyrandyn (a small, poor gathering of drow families too
small to be considered a city) that did compose of followers of Eilistraee. There is no details about this no longer existing community.
We know about the Promenade which is a garison part community. We also are told of a surface temple on the surface the receiving end of a portal from Menzoberranzan with little detail of that temple the last major temple that was is the Twisted
Tower.
We are told that many temples are simple glades that followers gather at as well. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:47:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule
I could definitely center an adventure around that idea. So drow definitely aren't even close to universally evil and drizzt isn't the sole exception.
Keep in mind that Eilistraee, as a lesser deity, has at least a few thousands of worshipers (up to tens of thousands). So yeah, even only counting her and her followers, there are quite a lot of non evil drow. The Realmsian dark elves have never been fully evil in Ed's mind. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:43:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule
Yeah its kind of hard to sift through I've been looking at the wiki. Although it seems to beat me over the head about being inclusive and accepting and all that. I mean I get it but think I might emphasize freedom, travelers, redemption and art portfolios for her, maybe nature to it. Might play with the idea of giving the drow more of an established settlement maybe growing into a proper city.
They have tried that, multiple times, with varying degrees of success. In Raven's Bluff, in Evermeet, in Cormanthor (Elventree, for example), and they are currently doing that in Waterdeep, as a new Eilistraeean community and temple is forming there, sponsored by the Harpers. Unless you mean to build a city from scratch, in which case the restored Rhymanthiin might be what you're looking for (I tried to include possible plot hooks for that in my document).
In my work, I also tried to put emphasis on Eilistraee's goal to help the drow forge their own path in the world, rediscover the joy of life that they have forgotten, and to build strong relationships with other races. I'm sorry that it wasn't useful or difficult to use. Would you mind telling me what made it hard to use, so that I can work on it? |
| Ocule |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:39:17
I could definitely center an adventure around that idea. So drow definitely aren't even close to universally evil and drizzt isn't the sole exception. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:34:39
Ed has previously said here that about 1 in 10 drow actually worship Eilistraee. And that's in drow cities throughout the Underdark, not counting dedicated communities on the surface. So Eilistraee's worshipper base is actually huge. Nowhere near Lloth's of course, but still huge. |
| Ocule |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:29:55
Yeah its kind of hard to sift through I've been looking at the wiki. Although it seems to beat me over the head about being inclusive and accepting and all that. I mean I get it but think I might emphasize freedom, travelers, redemption and art portfolios for her, maybe nature to it. Might play with the idea of giving the drow more of an established settlement maybe growing into a proper city. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 20:13:34
There's plenty of info out there about Eilistraee and her followers. They received a lot of characterization across the editions. I wrote a pdf trying to gather all the lore out there, updated to 1491 DR (you can get it free here: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/176361). I also added a list of sources used.
Alternatively, you can check the articles about Eilistraee (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee) and the Church of Eilistraee (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Church_of_Eilistraee) on the Forgotten Realms Wiki. The article about her followers includes a list of all the Eilistraeean communities (except the most recent one that is forming within Waterdeep in 1491) and a description of their traditions, principles, community structures, and so on. The wiki lists it's sources too, and has also articles about particular orders and some specific communities. |
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