| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 13:23:32
I was just thinking about how the Chosen were described in Seven Sisters and how the rules of magic have changed since 2nd edition. I know that that concept will make some of you want to scream about the Mary Sue's of the world, but my personal feel is that they have their place. Anyway, it made me ask myself a question, and I thought for grins I'd throw it out here.
What would you give to Chosen of Mystra as a major special ability?
I'm pretty certain that the first thing that comes to mind for folks is silver fire. While I would give them this... the first thing that came to my mind is the ability to concentrate on more than one spell... or rather a bonus number of spells they can concentrate on (say a bonus of two, for a total of 3). Now in my red book of spell strategy, I've written up some other ways to do this, and perhaps some chosen take advantage of this and can concentrate on 4,5, even 6 effects at once. Given that nearly every buff spell and a lot of summoning effects now require concentration that were "fire and forget" in previous editions, it becomes a decent change to make chosen appear to be more like what they're described as or how we picture them.
So, I ask again, what would you do? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Oct 2018 : 13:46:30
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?
I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great.
I truly am stealing this for a Exarch of Ilsenstaad concept, it's from a module where if you help the ghostly 2nd son of Obadai you get a stone cunning trait! (Yoink) Nice less powerful definition of a Chosen/Exarch
Ilsensine maybe? Yeah, I could definitely see this as an ability for illithid followers of said god. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2018 : 22:28:23
The first thing I would do in 5th Edition is have the new/old Mystra res. her lost Chosen. She's done it with Elminster numerous times - so why not the others? Restored life, and vitality and strength (to counter the whole "I'm so tired" bit from the Simbul)... call it a rebirth if you want. To mirror Mystra's.
After that, I see no reason to change the powers described in detail from the Seven Sisters book.
The only possible changes I would make is maybe given them each an individual power - Mystra given - specific to each Chosen and something they will need in the future (remember Mystra is also the goddess of time travel, so it makes sense she sees the future). Kind of like the movie The Paycheck, where Ben Affleck gives himself little tiny objects that he saw he would need in the future.
|
| Archmage of Nowhere |
Posted - 22 Oct 2018 : 14:38:09
Kind of late to this admittedly, but I find the topic pretty interesting so ill give a crack at the topic. For me and the games that I run I actually let the chosen keep the basic abilities of wizards from every older edition. For example the ability in 2E to reverse spells and their effect I always found fascinating, or historically in lore how spells beyond 9th were allowed by the limits of magic. To me Mystra's chosen should be window and a bridge between the more ancient ways of magic and the current brand of common sense practitioners follow. So its I guess a timeless quality to their casting, not restricted by todays "rules" of magic.
I really enjoy the moments where they do something that would have been mundane in a different age to the wonder of new players. |
| Fineva |
Posted - 22 Oct 2018 : 04:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?
I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great.
I truly am stealing this for a Exarch of Ilsenstaad concept, it's from a module where if you help the ghostly 2nd son of Obadai you get a stone cunning trait! (Yoink) Nice less powerful definition of a Chosen/Exarch |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 01:00:55
Isn't that the premise of 4E's Spellplague? That Mystra's power (along with the Weave) was not localized to the Realms, her death disrupted magic (the Weave) across the entire cosmos?
Working under that model, since warlocks and the things they make pacts with all live somewhere within the entire cosmos, they should be affected.
Yet, paradoxically, the same edition also invented Abeir and Primordials, along with limits to deities (including Mystra) in affecting them. As if Abeir is not simply another sphere or plane or dimension, but a place entirely separate from the "entire" cosmos. And as if Ao has enough power to impose such a thing within/apart of the cosmos, yet lacks enough power to temporarily assert stability onto the unconstrained Weave (even on only just a few select worlds, if the entire cosmic-spanning Weave would be too much). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 00:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all?
I would say that no they aren't, and that would be purely because as much as I like Mystra... I'd like to limit her... AND I'd like the power sources for warlocks to not be Toril based.
That being said, we don't have stories of warlocks being NOT affected during the wailing years, and I would have thought that would have come up if it were the case. Playing devil's advocate to THAT though, one might say that the weave and connections to other planes being in disarray caused some kind of "interference" across many "spectrums" of energy flowing to Toril. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 04:52:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all?
Depends, is this post-Spellplague or post-Sundering? Spellplague-era no, its not Weave based. Sundering-era, I'd assume it would be similar to Divine magic |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 04:27:15
Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 03:34:05
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
9 should be sorcery not bardic
Sorcery isn't a school, though -- it's a different way of casting the same spells.
And I'm weak on bards, but I'm fairly certain they're casting the same spells, too, though also in a different way. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 20:48:14
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Mystra should not have psionics within her portfolios, either. Psionics are internally powered and seems very un-Weave-like. But (when psionics is discussed at all) it is usually stated that she does.
Auppenser is the god of psionics. Mystryl put him to sleep to keep him from dying off entirely.
Psionics in the Realms has been handled as if it is magic powered by a personal, one-person Weave. That's how it was in 3E; I don't know if it was addressed in later versions... I like psionics a lot, but aside from Dark Sun, psionics has always never been properly integrated into D&D -- it's always a rough bolt-on. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 18:38:43
Mystra should not have psionics within her portfolios, either. Psionics are internally powered and seems very un-Weave-like. But (when psionics is discussed at all) it is usually stated that she does.
Bards can worship pretty much any deity they like, but they're generally associated with Milil or Oghma, not Mystra. I don't recall any examples of bardic magic during the Avatar Crisis or other such Mystra-died-Weave-disrupted events.
If anything, I'd think wild magic would be a suitable ninth school, not bardic magic. Bards have their own magical ways, but in general they're just artsy dabblers who practice proper magic at lesser level and competence than wizard/priest counterparts.
And remember that Guide to Hell is wonderfully inconsistent with other Planeslore and Realmslore. A "Bardic School" not dependent on Mystra's Weave, taken from this book, would be just as valid as Jazirian/Asmodeus possessing ultimate power over the entire cosmos (and over all the gods or overgods of places like the Realms in it). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 17:23:00
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You're right, sleyvas. Eight-pointed stars, not eight stars. They still might represent eight cardinal schools of magic.
In the book Guide to Hell, it is suggested there is one layer for each school of magic, the Ninth being the Bardic School.
Whats interesting is that I am now reading the Haunted Lands trilogy, and in that, Bardic Magic seems to unaffected by the Spellplague (or maybe just barely - its not even noticeable). That would indicate that Bardic Magic is indeed some separate, perhaps 'more ancient' form of magic: I personally connect it to the Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord PrC's, 'True Name' magic, Fey Magic {the written form - Hamafae}, and the Rune Magic of the Giants and Dwarves. Its part of the 'language primeval' that was spoken in the First world, which itself is a debased form of the mental 'Language of the Gods' (The Dark Tongue would be a corrupted form).
So basically - if you've followed my other musings - all part of 'Raw Magic'. That stuff that divine and semi-divine beings used to be able to throw around willy-nilly, before the Dawnwar and the shattering of the True World.
Thus, Mystra should not have the Ninth school in her repertoire - it is 'above and beyond' The Weave (although she herself may use it, and certain 'gifted' mortals - it would be Silver/Spellfire). Also, if we connect Necromancy to shadow, she may not have that in the 1e/2e/3e time period either (because Shar's Shadoweave probably rose to prominence with the death of Mystryl)*. Although thats a tough call, because 'shadow' is actually connected to illusion. Its a shaky theory, but it could help explain the changing number of stars.
The Compass Rose I now use for all my maps has SEVEN stars, and shall always remain so. That is how Ed intended it.
*The main problem with this is that we've never actually seen any real difference betweent eh spells an arcane caster can cat, and one using the Shadoweave, aside from some odd abilities Troy Denning gave his characters in the RotAW. In Haunted Lands Szass Tam even specifically tries to use the Shadoweave (which he states is NOT his normal way of casting) when he can no longer access The Weave (he knew of it, and how to use... he just chose not to). However, he found it was even 'more gone' than The weave was (no trace of it).
Of course, The Weave (and Shadoweave) have waffled all over the place lore-wise, so who knows. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 16:36:00
lol some of Mystra's Chosen are player characters? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 12:57:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?
I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 07:24:42
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:45:49
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
This thread made me think of a couple questions I've been wondering about for a while.
First, are there other weave-ghosts than those of the seven sisters who died? Vangerdahast maybe? I feel like I remember reading about some, but I can't recall who they might be.
Some of the princes of Shade should be among them, IIRC.
quote:
Second, did we ever learn anything more about "why a bear?" for holding Mystra's rebirth for 5E, at least until the Simbul joined her? I remember speculating with my brother and mom that bears were often shamanistic, which is an early type of magic (maybe the early Netherese had shamans before they interacted with the elves or the sarrukh, and they were bear-spirit shamans?). IDK, just totally guessing on my part. Or is it just one of those great unspoken riddles of the Realms?
Deities hiding in animals doesn't seem to be exclusive to Mystra. Helm was hiding in a goat, for example. If we're going to use Occam's Razor, then the most immediate answer is that it could be a way like another to safely hide from unwanted attention, and that the chosen animals don't necessarily have any particular meaning. They might even simply be the closest thing where the "wounded" deity could find a refuge. However, being this the Realms, there might very well be some hidden meaning behind all this. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.
But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen?
Wow, totally forgot I started that thread. So, now I'm wondering was that bear Selune or Lurue.... it technically could have been an avatar of either.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
speaking of Mystra, who do you think her replacement will be?
Elminster did tell Laeral and alustrial that one of the 7 were going to replace her
According to what Ed said, the new Mystra doesn't seem to be any of the 7. She's a new goddess, but encloses within herself the meories, experiences, and/or consciousness of her previous iterations. In addition to that she also has access to the "Voices in the Weave", who are those among the sisters whose physical form is no more, and many poweful arcanists who are no longer alive. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:34:21
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Could all Chosen could wield silverfire AND spellfire? Or just some (like Elminster)? Never liked that, personally, just automatically adding every "new" kind of magic and every "new" magical advantage to Mystra's Chosen because (duh!) they're magically powerful - and doubly so for Elminster in particular, lol, because (duh!) he's Elminster.
But more seriously, I think there's a lot of individual variance among Mystra's Chosen. As in the powers granted to them follow a template to a lesser degree because each one would receive/possess something unique and distinctive. Larloch and Storm and Elminster may have the usual silverfire and spell immunities and ageless/sleepless vitality but that's about it; each would then have some other powers possessed by no other, call it a "personal" gift from Mystra.
I recall that spellfire could be blocked by a few magics like wall of force and sphere of annihilation types of effects. Yet it could penetrate/ignore almost all other magics, including prismatic barriers. Does silverfire have similar limitations vs specific magics?
Yeah, I would like to kind of create a template that works for her chosen and gives them versatility without raw power (guess I should have stated that the point of this thread was somewhat to tone down the chosen). Thus, I'd include silver fire, because its well documented. However, spellfire... no... But, I find the few extra concentration slots to be a source of immense versatility.
Some basic other things I'm thinking we might want to include is the ability to "interpret all forms of magical formulae and encryption, including but not limited to Southern Magic and elven High Magic, even if they don't qualify to duplicate the effects". I don't find that overwhelming. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:28:03
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
umm.. the scag one has 8 not 9
No, in the SCAG, this is the text for her holy symbol, not the picture
Circle of seven stars, nine stars encircling a flowing red mist, or a single star
Which I'm reading as 3 different possible holy symbols.... and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that all of these stars are the ones with the 8 points and the circle.
Circle of seven stars
nine stars encircling a flowing red mist
a single star
I thought the same way when I first red sfdragon's post, only to realize he was looking at one thing, I was looking at another, and he was talking about the number of points on a single star and I was talking about the number of stars themselves. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 06:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.
But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen?
Hm, I don't know if that answers it or just adds more questions.
But thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that thread.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 06:12:19
I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.
But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen? |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 06:01:58
This thread made me think of a couple questions I've been wondering about for a while.
First, are there other weave-ghosts than those of the seven sisters who died? Vangerdahast maybe? I feel like I remember reading about some, but I can't recall who they might be.
Second, did we ever learn anything more about "why a bear?" for holding Mystra's rebirth for 5E, at least until the Simbul joined her? I remember speculating with my brother and mom that bears were often shamanistic, which is an early type of magic (maybe the early Netherese had shamans before they interacted with the elves or the sarrukh, and they were bear-spirit shamans?). IDK, just totally guessing on my part. Or is it just one of those great unspoken riddles of the Realms?
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 06:00:46
Shandril developed her spellfire throughout the novels, starting up as a uncontrollable random blaster, ending up mastering the "crown of fire" and more.
Perhaps Elminster's (many) other magical abilities interfere with and impede the process of learning how to master spellfire. A sort of constant "background noise" Shandril never had to overcome. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 05:20:24
From Ed:
quote:
Elminster figured out how to manipulate the Weave to call forth spellfire. Any of the Chosen who became sufficiently attuned to the Weave (by using it for centuries), and took the time to experiment and study, could theoretically duplicate what Elminster did, and end up with spellfire too. Several of them (no, I’m NOT going to reveal which ones) already have. Such Chosen can avoid being blown apart by balancing Weave energies around themselves (and so teleport AND have spellfire). However, it’s important to remember that just because a Chosen of Mystra CAN figure out how to do something, it doesn’t mean they will ever have time or inclination to do so. Most of the Chosen are like very, very busy house painters: they COULD learn to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but they’re REALLY busy with all of these other projects, over here, that are far more pressing and interesting - - and then this crisis hits, and that one . . . and so the centuries pass . . .
I also seem to recall -- though I don't have a quote handy -- that what Elminster could do and what Shandril could do were very different. I want to say he had the blasty option and not much else, where Shandril had the absorption and healing and all that. El didn't have the natural ability with spellfire that Shandril had, it was an acquired and lesser skill for him. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 04:38:28
Could all Chosen could wield silverfire AND spellfire? Or just some (like Elminster)? Never liked that, personally, just automatically adding every "new" kind of magic and every "new" magical advantage to Mystra's Chosen because (duh!) they're magically powerful - and doubly so for Elminster in particular, lol, because (duh!) he's Elminster.
But more seriously, I think there's a lot of individual variance among Mystra's Chosen. As in the powers granted to them follow a template to a lesser degree because each one would receive/possess something unique and distinctive. Larloch and Storm and Elminster may have the usual silverfire and spell immunities and ageless/sleepless vitality but that's about it; each would then have some other powers possessed by no other, call it a "personal" gift from Mystra.
I recall that spellfire could be blocked by a few magics like wall of force and sphere of annihilation types of effects. Yet it could penetrate/ignore almost all other magics, including prismatic barriers. Does silverfire have similar limitations vs specific magics? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Sep 2017 : 23:40:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You're right, sleyvas. Eight-pointed stars, not eight stars. They still might represent eight cardinal schools of magic.
Yep, I agree there. I wonder if the nine stars might not represent the "bear" that held Mystra's essence and then the Simbul? If so, though, that would imply something about the earlier seven stars. Hmmm, might be taking it a bit far. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Sep 2017 : 22:42:37
You're right, sleyvas. Eight-pointed stars, not eight stars. They still might represent eight cardinal schools of magic. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Sep 2017 : 20:54:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The number and arrangement of stars could itself be (or at least represent) a magical symbol, something like a hermatic enneagram/nonagram or an occult emblem for the "Order of the Nine Angles" (although, of course, Mystra's nine stars would have their own Realms-specific meaning).
Older (2E-era) Mystra symbols with eight stars probably represented the eight "traditional" dweomers/schools/specializations of magic. Especially since they are arranged in the same cardinal manner as the "oppositional school" diagrams in the rulebooks.
The ninth star could represent wild magic. Or psionics.
It might even be one of Mystra's higher "mysteries", lol, with a purpose only meant to be understood by the most magically enlightened souls.
The different symbols could be like variations of holy symbols on our world. To indicate a particular church or subset of churches, something as trivial as the quirky typeface or style used by the scribes in one monastery to a splinter faith or a cult or a minor denomination or a major schism in the faith. Christianity provides many examples of such variations, as do the other major religions. It's what happens to any long-lived religion, especially when it becomes steeped in tradition or ceremony, involved with politics (especially secular ones), divided by different interpretations and "editions" of canon; the world (indeed the deity itself) keeps changing, some priests seek to embrace these changes while others seek to preserve the old ways.
She never had 8 stars. She had 8 pointed stars, but only 7 of them, and now 9. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Sep 2017 : 13:17:28
The number and arrangement of stars could itself be (or at least represent) a magical symbol, something like a hermatic enneagram/nonagram or an occult emblem for the "Order of the Nine Angles" (although, of course, Mystra's nine stars would have their own Realms-specific meaning).
Older (2E-era) Mystra symbols with eight stars probably represented the eight "traditional" dweomers/schools/specializations of magic. Especially since they are arranged in the same cardinal manner as the "oppositional school" diagrams in the rulebooks.
The ninth star could represent wild magic. Or psionics.
It might even be one of Mystra's higher "mysteries", lol, with a purpose only meant to be understood by the most magically enlightened souls.
The different symbols could be like variations of holy symbols on our world. To indicate a particular church or subset of churches, something as trivial as the quirky typeface or style used by the scribes in one monastery to a splinter faith or a cult or a minor denomination or a major schism in the faith. Christianity provides many examples of such variations, as do the other major religions. It's what happens to any long-lived religion, especially when it becomes steeped in tradition or ceremony, involved with politics (especially secular ones), divided by different interpretations and "editions" of canon; the world (indeed the deity itself) keeps changing, some priests seek to embrace these changes while others seek to preserve the old ways. |
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