| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mastermustard |
Posted - 14 Sep 2017 : 05:35:03
The orginal Baldur's Gate series is hailed as a gaming icon for being the first major step in the evolution of RPG gaming, and NWN2 conintued that tradition to great financial success. The Eberron D&D Online game and the Neverwinter RPG met decent profits as well due to their online focus which appealed to gamers of their day as well. From Baldur's Gate 1 to Neverwinter MMO I can't recall a game that didn't sell well or wasn't important in some way.
So why are D&D games thrown by the wayside even though they're demonstrably a cash cow? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 09:28:27
yes..
the last decent dnd game to me was TOEE. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 04:50:37
And I think we've covered that topic well enough. Let's move on before it descends into the messiness prior discussions have spiraled into. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 03:31:19
political correct = lie to make someone smile.
?I say piss em off. the truth hurts.
does not matter what skin tone or gender, a mind is a terrible thing to waste....
just my take on political correctness as we all know politics lie |
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 01:53:33
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I also haven't played DA 2 but what was bad about it? Physics, storyline, rules?
To me, everything except the class/character ability trees (much improved from the linear ones from DAO).
Recycled area maps (with barriers to open or close areas based on the quest using it). I dunno how many times I went into the same cave for different quests, but it was insane.
The visuals for everything other than the main character (Hawke) and NPCs were massive steps backwards from DAO.
The encounters used a wave system which led to more enemies springing from the ground or falling from the sky. Most (if not all) boss encounters didn't require strategy and/or thinking so much as just wailing away on the boss(es) until they died. One in particular (a one-on-one duel) was so terrible it was like a Benny Hill skit.
The story and setting were abysmal. A quick example for setting, the opening shows Hawke and family retreating from the Blight occurring in Ferelden, to arrive at the docks of the Free Marches city of Kirkwall and being told there's no room for more refugees. Well, after some quests and whatnot...you're allowed entry to find the city is little more than a ghost town, certainly not filled to the brim with people (or even slightly crowded).
The story was a series of various narratives divided into chapters, with essentially a new story per chapter. Nifty in concept, but they didn't pull it off well at all. The chapters were pretty short, so once they started to show signs of getting interesting, they ended abruptly (with a terrible boss encounter of some sort).
If there is an overall narrative, I never managed to find it (other than a simmering Mages vs Templars snoozefest in which you are forced to choose a side from pretty much out of nowhere).
I could continue, but suffice to say I hated all but one thing about DA2. DA3 (Inquisition) was just flat-out boring (my first though upon finishing the game was 'Thank God, it's finally friggin over!'). |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 22:02:47
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Daggerdale was a MAJOR flop and Sword Coast Legends, from all accounts, did pretty poor as well. WotC NEEDS to team up with Bio-Ware and EA again to make a more evolved 3rd person Realms game similar to Mass Effect/Dragon Age. That would sell like hot cakes.
The latest installments of both series' have been ridiculed for various reasons. I don't want to get into politics but I'd wait a few years before I let Bioware make a game for any IP I owned.
To be candid, I'd be concerned that Bioware's dev team might add their own politically correct spin to the Realms.
It would definitely get D&D out in the public eye in a way that D&D hasn't been since 2007, though.
If by politically correct, you mean ideals that empower women and break boundaries such as transgenderism then the Realms has that beat by QUITE a few years. Remember Elminster spent some time as a woman to get a different perspective. So that sort of stuff fits perfectly fine in a setting like the Forgotten Realms. Hells there's even a magical item that switches gender and I presume spells can too.
Then there's the fact that MANY women in the Realms are empowered magically, politically, spiritually, intellectually, etc. So, again, there's no "Politically Correct" path that would be pushed that the Forgotten Realms (and by the by, D&D) hasn't already done in the past. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 21:58:07
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Daggerdale was a MAJOR flop and Sword Coast Legends, from all accounts, did pretty poor as well. WotC NEEDS to team up with Bio-Ware and EA again to make a more evolved 3rd person Realms game similar to Mass Effect/Dragon Age. That would sell like hot cakes.
Sword Coast Legends killed its development studio (nSpace), was picked up by their publisher, Digital Extremes (DE), ported to console and pretty much immediately abandoned. I'd qualify that as not only a flop, but a disaster.
The game was barely D&D. It was, funnily enough, far more like Dragon Age: Origins in terms of mechanics with a D&D skin on it.
I only played the first DA so I'm not sure how much Origins changed. SCL looked cool, in part because of the 3rd person view and visuals similar to BG. I haven't played it, so I'm only going from some of the screen shots I saw.
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
Frankly, if they put the D&D label on it, I expect D&D rules. Not a 1:1 translation, but an adaptation of the rules that more closely resembles its source (i.e. the Baldur's Gates, Icewind Dales, Neverwinter Nights, etc). SCL was, at best, a mediocre role-playing game, a pathetic toolset, and an absolutely terrible D&D game.
I certainly don't expect too much D&D rules in a video game. I mean, it can be done, and has but that shouldn't be the end/all-be/all there. I mean I played Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance and Dungeons and Dragons Heroes and they're really really fun to play despite not being based really on D&D rules.
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
I do agree with you though that a D&D game developed and published by Bioware/EA would likely sell like mad. I'd rather not see either company touch the D&D brand, since they have ruined everything they touch since Dragon Age 2 (in my eyes at least), but it would undoubtedly make a ton of money.
I also haven't played DA 2 but what was bad about it? Physics, storyline, rules? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 14:59:45
Everquest Next was a really nice pipedream for nextgen MMO's though. I was looking forward to its voxel-based workable landmarks, truly destructible environments and autonomous AI. Shame its development has grinded to a complete halt.
Though a nice digital representation of Waterdeep and Undermountain would be a great resource for DM's and players, I don't see a developer having the time and loremastery to do it justice though. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 13:37:59
Never had a thing for drow females. Nor for drow anything. Yucky, pale, sickly grey thin and flimsy pointy-eared emotionally disfunctional parodies of real people.
Though, being male, I have been unable to not notice the sexy medusa trope. Some medusae are reptilian and nasty and downright petrifying to behold - as they should be! But others are quite decidedly exotic and feminine and attractive (once you get past the playfully nippy snake hair). Blame Greek mythology for all those bare-breasted medusa depictions of antiquity. Blame Hollywood and mass media for emphasizing and exaggerating (and unashamedly sexifying) monstrous seduction.
All that being said ... you take my drow, I'll take your sinuously curvy snakewomen, it's a deal! |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 10:35:57
I "steal" all your hot Drow females, and I "give" you a cross-eyed Medusa in return. Sounds fair. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 07:22:58
Sex sells, true.
Chainmail bikinis, scantily-clad sorceresses or elves (or elviras) are also firmly-entrenched parts of the RPG genre, lol, also pioneered by D&D and also "stolen" from other inspirations. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 07:15:42
the only thing everquest ever had was the elf chick.
that is it.....
hahahahha okay eye candy, but it is more than likely what drew players to look at it |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 06:37:50
quote:
Someone needs to work on an Everquest 3. EQ was the original computer game that was "DnD-but-not-DnD". It stole every idea from AD&D, but it was never AD&D. It just renamed some things differently. Instead of "Drow" you simply had Dark Elves (Tier'Dal). Instead of Wood Elves, you had Feir'Dal. And then you had killable deities/avatars too. If you were high enough level, you and your guildmates entered the deity's home plane, and you slew them there. Fun times, fun times.
EverQuest was not original at anything. It was not even original at being unoriginal.
Numerous ancient CRPGs - most notably the popular Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, and Bard's Tale series - had already "stolen" and "renamed" countless things and ideas from AD&D. Indeed, Ultima Online was arguably the first popular MMORPG, many players of the first EQ game were refugees from UO. (EQ was more technologically advanced and refined than UO, it was the better game in its time, until it was usurped by even more advanced and refined games.)
And (A)D&D itself "stole" or "renamed" countless things and ideas from other inspirations. Dark elves and wood elves (along with non-folklore notions of elves and dwarves and orcs and dragons and giants in general) were largely imported from Tolkien's "Middle Earth" novels, (killable) immortals/avatars were imported from Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" novels, etc. AD&D 1E even removed things like the Cthulhu mythos, Elric mythos, and Nehwon mythos because they were blatant copyright infringements of works owned by other authors (in some cases, also owned by other game makers).
I've commented before about how impressed I am that D&D inspired an entire "RPG genre" - a vast collection/pastiche of adapted "traditions" and "lore" - which in turn inspired other "RPG" forms and adaptations, which themselves, many times removed, ended up inspiring later editions of D&D. It's a synergistic and evolving thing.
Even today most "RPG" tabletop or computer games remain based on Vancian-based magic (which Gygax "stole" from Vance's Dying Earth novels), and rigorously codified combat/battle simulations (which Gygax "stole" from Chainmail and other tabletop war games), and ideas about "adventures" and dungeon crawls (which Gygax "stole" from Tolkien, Moorcock, Vance, Leiber, and many others). Gygax also "stole" hulking mighty barbarians from Ahnold's Conan the Barbarian movie and "invented" bard and druid counterparts for his ("stolen" from Arthurian legends, Merlin-emulating) magic-user class - and these are all now firmly-entrenched archetypes which still remain popular character/class choices in almost every RPG encountered today.
I think EverQuest 3 won't ever happen simply because World of Warcraft overwhelmingly dominates the genre (while other games like League of Legends tightly crowd all the adjacent niches). The people who "need" to work on EQ3 are already working (for Blizzard) on WoW ... it's where the players are, it's where the money is. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 18:50:28
Someone needs to work on an Everquest 3. EQ was the original computer game that was "DnD-but-not-DnD". It stole every idea from AD&D, but it was never AD&D. It just renamed some things differently. Instead of "Drow" you simply had Dark Elves (Tier'Dal). Instead of Wood Elves, you had Feir'Dal. And then you had killable deities/avatars too. If you were high enough level, you and your guildmates entered the deity's home plane, and you slew them there. Fun times, fun times.
|
| Starshade |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 13:44:58
Umm, the CRPG genre and ARPG's exists, the pen and paper adaptions seems to be standing in the shadows, though. I did not know Chris Avellone was active until I read here, and never knew of any adaption of the crazy Monte Cook world of Numenera! 
Whats happening, is perhaps what always happens; 1% of the games made gets lots of attention, and the 9% of the rest, who might just have less budget, stands in the shadows of the big 3D engines. D&D still have waaayy to few games made, Wotc simply burns money by not getting any major titles made by 3. party devlopers. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 07:25:58
quote:
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
lol, it seems like people don't agree with this statement. And so many new CRPG/ARPG titles being released (and re-released) and developed and kickstarted and suggested.
It looks very promising, I love CRPGs and ARPGs - and I loathe MMORPGs. So I really do hope I was wrong. But I still fear that I (and those who've spoken here, lol) are in the minority. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 21:37:00
bards tale 4 gets released next year too, but that is not dnd.. so.... but it is a rpg..... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 17:07:33
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kingmaker CRPG! Chris Avellone was involved with Planescape: Torment and Fallout 2, which impressed me greatly. Added to my list of (old and new) CRPGs/ARPGs I never played through (Torchlight 2, Victor Vran, Grim Dawn, NOX, Darkstone).
Goblinworks looks like a bit of a flop to me, though, sandbox MMO for a tabletop RPG doesn't seem compelling (or profitable) ... though I might be wrong.
Paizo produces more computer games than Wizbro these days?
I invested heavily in the pathfinder online kickstarter. It resembled the game in my book not one bit.... though admittedly I tried it for all of two days and got tired of the constant need to forage just to make moderately ok starter equipment. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 16:34:33
Pathfinder Online by all accounts was pretty bad anyways, Kingmaker looks like it's going well though until the finished release there's no way to be certain. |
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 16:13:20
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
paizo release a game??
https://owlcatgames.com/
paizo's kingmaker
https://goblinworks.com/pathfinder-online/
their online mmo
again I wonder if anyone ever clicks links
Had no need. I had already backed Kingmaker and have no interest in MMOs. |
| idilippy |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 15:47:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
And there are also licensing issues, of course. WotC and Hasbro are both very territorial over their IPs and both lacking much savvy in digital/software media. I'm sure that they'd stubbornly obstruct efforts to produce a new Bioware-type CRPG (through an outsourced/partnered game dev) or to distribute it through channels (like the Steam platform) which are outside their control.
It would be more realistic - I think - to inquire whether Paizo will ever release such a game (or series of games).
I think the release of Divinity 2, the highly successful kickstarters for Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera, and the re-release of the infinity engine games as enhanced editions (including the most recent one, Planescape Torment EE) shows there is still a large market for these sorts of games.
Paizo also has a game coming out, Kingmaker, which had a massive kickstarter campaign too. And those are just the games in one variety of CRPG, not counting the Fallout, Dragon Age, or Mass Effect series, Skyrim, etc. I think it's safe to say that in the last 5-10 years the CRPG genre is doing as well as it's ever done, maybe the best it's ever done. |
| Veritas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 15:22:48
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
I'll respectfully disagree. While MMOs have become more prominent in the last two decades, CRPGs can be very popular and succesful. Skyrim continues to have a strong base even 5 years later. Witcher 3 was massively successful. Fallout 4. The Dragon Age games (although I wub Origins best). Mass Effect.
I'd say they're easily still going strong. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 13:39:40
Sfdragon: I click links. I just like play AAA Xbox One, PS3/PS4 games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Horizon Zero Dawn, Halo or Final Fantasy. I have been playing a mmo or two, but don't want to play D&D in a mmo; I'd rather play real D&D than that.
Pathfinder online could be interesting, Pathfinder: Kingmaker seems like a good game, too. No idea if I will try them, but the name Chris Avellone among the devs seems promising |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 10:27:42
Kingmaker CRPG! Chris Avellone was involved with Planescape: Torment and Fallout 2, which impressed me greatly. Added to my list of (old and new) CRPGs/ARPGs I never played through (Torchlight 2, Victor Vran, Grim Dawn, NOX, Darkstone).
Goblinworks looks like a bit of a flop to me, though, sandbox MMO for a tabletop RPG doesn't seem compelling (or profitable) ... though I might be wrong.
Paizo produces more computer games than Wizbro these days? |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 09:52:15
paizo release a game??
https://owlcatgames.com/
paizo's kingmaker
https://goblinworks.com/pathfinder-online/
their online mmo
again I wonder if anyone ever clicks links
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 06:32:10
The CRPG genre has simply fallen out of its prime. Just like the ARPG genre. New games of this sort keep on being released but they're very niche compared to ever-evolving mainstream MMORPGs.
And there are also licensing issues, of course. WotC and Hasbro are both very territorial over their IPs and both lacking much savvy in digital/software media. I'm sure that they'd stubbornly obstruct efforts to produce a new Bioware-type CRPG (through an outsourced/partnered game dev) or to distribute it through channels (like the Steam platform) which are outside their control.
It would be more realistic - I think - to inquire whether Paizo will ever release such a game (or series of games). |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 04:15:27
oh and b4 anyone looks at idle champions.
it IS a time waster just saying... but it is free though |
| mastermustard |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 04:10:47
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
i'd like to take the time to point out that some of the brains that put out Baldur's gate 1&2 and Icewind Dale 1&2 as well as Neverwinter Nights 1 &2 no longer work at bioware, or obsidian.
some of them work at Beamdog studios and chris avalone works at owlcat
I did, I'll be giving them a try soon. Very much appreciated. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 03:34:58
No AAA studio or development company would want to deal with WoTC. It's an absolute legal nightmare. Bethesda, Obsidian and all the others already have or can create their own IPs to keep riffing games off for years... |
| Veritas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2017 : 02:45:16
No AAA company wants to bother. They can make their own property, keep all the intellectual property, and funnel all the money to themselves. Moreover, it doesn't look like WoTC has the bargaining power for anything more than small publishers. The Infinity Engine games came out at a time before Morrowind, and now the demand is high for quality that a studio WoTC can contract with will not be able to pull off.
If anything, the Dungeons & Dragons brand may even be a detriment, because while D&D does have its followers, as we saw with SCL, a less than faithful adaptation of the rules of the game brings widespread condemnation.
|
| sfdragon |
Posted - 15 Sep 2017 : 23:23:28
I do wonder if anyone clicked those links... |
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