| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 08 Sep 2017 : 00:47:36
I'm curious to see what others think about "fragments" of deity power which are granted to, stolen by, or obtained by mortals in some way.
We're all familiar with the Chosen, of course, and my question to all of you isn't so much about if or how it can happen, but rather what might be required in order to maintain the fragment in a mortal.
Does the mortal require an influx of prayer energy, or belief in the deity from which the fragment came? It seems to me that there have been a few examples where a mortal was given or took on a piece of a deity's power but didn't necessarily require the deity to still be alive (e.g. Mask after he was 'killed' by Shar).
Would it be possible, for example, to have a mortal slay an ancient and forgotten deity's last avatar, and gain near-demigod powers? Or have a mortal come across such an avatar, and the avatar "gives over" the deity energy willingly?
And if it is possible, what is necessary to maintain the power? My feeling is "nothing" because we've seen examples (haven't we?) of dead deities floating around in the astral where their power resides in the form until someone or something comes along to eat or absorb it.
All of this is related to an idea I have for an epic level campaign, really from lvl 1 to lvl 20+, where in the final chapter the party meets a dead/forgotten god's avatar and it offers them the power for its final release.
Possible? Not possible? Good or Bad Idea? How might the currently living deities react, or would they even care, given the number of other epic characters and beings walking around?
Would love to hear your thoughts, thanks! 
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 20:36:11
While I would agre with you 100% here, and do not like the change, it is, unfrtunately, now canon.
The best we can do is figure out why the ring itself changed. The simplest thing is to say some other sentience entered the ring after the novel (the easiest path would be to say it was auril herself - perhaps the ring was separated from her before her 'fall', and now that she has somehow 'made contact with it', her corrupted personality has leeched-in).
And WHAT WAS AURIL'S NAME? I need to write that down! I haven't been able to find it, and I stupidly forgot to write it down the last time someone told me. It would have to be in something Brian James wrote in 4e - ZeromaruX? Anyone?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Tarsellis Meunniduin (the snow elven god who was turned by Lolth against Corellon)... it should be noted here that this is before Lolth became Lolth, and in the story her original name was Megwandir (not Araushnee). Lore from dragon #155, and its not related specifically to FR.
I think you may have quoted the wrong magazine article here - I know there was at least one other with 'Elven gods' (people seem to forget the Seldarine are a much bigger group than FR lore implies). What was that other issue?
Agreed about Cegliune - I've gone so far as to connect BOTH her and Baba Yaga together, and that perhaps Cegliune was the first 'Queen of Winter'. I think it may have skipped a generation - I have to go back and look what else i've written on the subject (I had two versions, slightly different). Lolth got pulled-in, as did Old Night.
And I'd keep that - the 'Winter' title for the Regalia, because that's the frost-Sprite title, and just sounds so much more FEY that way (connecting ti to seasons, rather than elements or conditions). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 14:38:30
I'd dispute any argument that the ring of winter is sentient. No evidence of that if you ask me. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 13:26:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The reason why I am so crazy about the concept is that the whole Auril/Queen of Air & Darkness/The Raven Queen/Kiaransalee lore was all intertwined and confusing. Linking them all together was really reaching (them being 'aspects' of one shattered consciousness0, but them being different people who just happened to get a hold of artifacts that had their OWN memories and personality, and you can see where the confusion could have come in, on a much more LOGICAL basis than I was bale to put forth before. Its like what happened with Laeral and the CoH (which I ALSO think is related, but that's not pertinent right now). Some of the QoA&D's craziness was transferred to her regalia, and now those bits of her mind and memories have fused with others (so they are her, in a manner of speaking, but really, they aren't her).
Its also why they are all missing various bits of their memories (some were 'overwritten'), and the Raven Queen isn't even sure who she used to be (and that part's canon). The Black Diamond tainted Auril (what is her original NAME?!), and then her persona corrupted her Regalia, and those artifacts in-turn corrupted those other would-be goddesses. That's what they get for playing with someone else's toys.
As for Artus Cimber, he just got caught-up in all of this. Because he is man, he might be somewhat resistant to the memory overwrite (he certainly doesn't remember wearing that pretty dress to a party! lol) Or maybe it is just starting to affect him, after all these years. It could be the more you use an item, the more the personality-corruption happens, and since he tries to NOT use his item, he just hasn't quite succumbed to it... yet.
So, in essence, the "Queen of Air & Darkness" original lore is of a throne of nothing but blackness from which a voice speaks, and no one knows its former name. Then there's "wondering" if Cegilune and the QoA&D are related.
In this instance, I would recommend that we lump together all of these entities in this stew. Furthermore, I'd change it from the Regalia of Winter , and instead call it something with a link to cold, dark winds.... maybe, and I'm not sold on this, but its the first thing coming to mind.... Regalia of Black Ice or Regalia of Air & Darkness . Then extend who all might be involved. By that I'm meaning the following
Auril
The Raven Queen
Kiaransalee (her item maybe can allow for memory alteration on a grand scale, but it also makes her vulnerable to such as well)
Cegilune
Ulutiu
Tarsellis Meunniduin (the snow elven god who was turned by Lolth against Corellon)... it should be noted here that this is before Lolth became Lolth, and in the story her original name was Megwandir (not Araushnee). Lore from dragon #155, and its not related specifically to FR.
Fenmarel Mestarine - Given that Fenmarel Mestarine also had a dalliance with Lolth, is also a god of outcast elves, and a loner, etc... it wouldn't take much to make me believe these two are the same entity with different names. However, it could also be that Lolth was an elven goddess who was manipulating many of the male gods of Faerie.
Which then leads to Lolth.
Shar definitely fits the mold of being corrupted by a piece
and this may be pushing it, but
Leira - I've always pictured her as a goddess of Faerie who has been turned (specifically of illusions and glamours).
So, perhaps some individuals are able to break free from the influence of the regalia (like Tarsellis and Fenmarel), and those gods make good ones for perhaps having a cloak or boots as the item in question. Ulutiu has the necklace. Auril has the black diamond. TRQ may have like a scepter or crown.
And similar to Sauron, perhaps LOOONNNNNGGGG ago there was an actual Queen of Air and Darkness. She was destroyed and only by having all her regalia rejoined can she fully reform. However, then comes the question, why is the ring of winter punishing evil behavior then.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 12:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
I found that Artus Cimber is regarded as Chosen of Auril. He doesn't seem to be her worshipper or even close to one. Looking deeper he has the Ring of Winter. Could it be that the chosen power resides in items as well as beings? The ring is sentient after all.
Where is it said that the ring is sentient? I don't recall that one.
So Fineva aimed me in the right direction, on this one. Page 207 of Tomb of Annihilation:
"The Ring of Winter is sentient and tries to take control of any creature that wears it (see "Sentient Magic Items" in chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). If it succeeds, the ring compels its wearer to cause undue harm to everyone and everything around it, in a cold-hearted attempt to incur the wrath of enemies and bring about the wearer's doom."
Of course, that is a blatant retcon. From page 112 of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (which fails to even imply that the ring is sentient; ditto for the novel The Ring of Winter):
"However, the Ring serves only the powers of good - if used for evil ends, it twists its wielder's intent to bring down disaster."
Given the way they twisted Ras Nsi into something almost entirely different from what he'd been before, I shouldn't be surprised -- but it's still disappointing that they seem to simply not care about prior canon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 03:58:49
The reason why I am so crazy about the concept is that the whole Auril/Queen of Air & Darkness/The Raven Queen/Kiaransalee lore was all intertwined and confusing. Linking them all together was really reaching (them being 'aspects' of one shattered consciousness), but them being different people who just happened to get a hold of artifacts that had their OWN memories and personality, and you can see where the confusion could have come in, on a much more LOGICAL basis than I was able to put forth before. It's like what happened with Laeral and the CoH (which I ALSO think is related, but that's not pertinent right now). Some of the QoA&D's craziness was transferred to her regalia, and now those bits of her mind and memories have fused with others (so they are her, in a manner of speaking, but really, they aren't her).
Its also why they are all missing various bits of their memories (some were 'overwritten'), and the Raven Queen isn't even sure who she used to be (and that part's canon). The Black Diamond tainted Auril (what is her original NAME?!), and then her persona corrupted her Regalia, and those artifacts in-turn corrupted those other would-be goddesses. That's what they get for playing with someone else's toys.
As for Artus Cimber, he just got caught-up in all of this. Because he is man, he might be somewhat resistant to the memory overwrite (he certainly doesn't remember wearing that pretty dress to a party! lol) Or maybe it is just starting to affect him, after all these years. It could be the more you use an item, the more the personality-corruption happens, and since he tries to NOT use his item, he just hasn't quite succumbed to it... yet. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 02:21:51
I could buy the concept that some gods have an essence tied into some artifacts, and maybe they want these back (like Sauron and his ring), and that maybe the possessor gains the powers of a chosen in some form. Someone had noted that there were rules for such in earlier editions, calling such items legacy items, and just possessing them didn't open you to them. You had to unlock its abilities somehow. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 21:45:20
-We discussed that in a different thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22104
-Well, not so much discussed as mentioned it as a possible way to rectify mismatching lore once or twice, lol. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 21:31:40
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
I found that Artus Cimber is regarded as Chosen of Auril. He doesn't seem to be her worshipper or even close to one. Looking deeper he has the Ring of Winter. Could it be that the chosen power resides in items as well as beings? The ring is sentient after all.
Where is it said that the ring is sentient? I don't recall that one. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 19:02:58
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
I found that Artus Cimber is regarded as Chosen of Auril. He doesn't seem to be her worshipper or even close to one. Looking deeper he has the Ring of Winter. Could it be that the chosen power resides in items as well as beings? The ring is sentient after all.
With this I submit the dragon masks once assembled as some similar power as Tiamat needed them to return to the world, thus answering my questions about why a chosen of Tiamat wasn't in the ritual...it was, only as a great mask..subtle.
Any speculations and comment welcome.
THIS is a brilliant line of reasoning - I LOVE it!
What if the power of the Frost-Sprite Queen was fragmented when Auril was driven insane (by the Black Diamond)? Pieces of her consciousness - and power - wound-up residing in the Regalia of Winter. Thus, the only way to fully 'reassemble' herself (and get most of her mind back) is to collect all the bits, which would include the one Artus holds... I absolutely LOVE it! It can connect so many dots together!
This means the Raven Queen probably got ahold of one of the fragments, and that would be how she snatched a piece of godhood for herself. Kiaransalee could be another involved! Instead of all this 'reaching' I've been doing linking them all together, we could just say that each of them has an artifact, and that's the common thread. Its so much simpler (easier to swallow).
Kudos!
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Only in the revolving door that is death in the Forgotten Realms. Other pantheons have deities that are well and truly gone.
It does start to look like a particularly cheesy anime, after awhile, doesn't it? When death becomes meaningless, so does paying attention. |
| Fineva |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 18:42:52
I found that Artus Cimber is regarded as Chosen of Auril. He doesn't seem to be her worshipper or even close to one. Looking deeper he has the Ring of Winter. Could it be that the chosen power resides in items as well as beings? The ring is sentient after all.
With this I submit the dragon masks once assembled as some similar power as Tiamat needed them to return to the world, thus answering my questions about why a chosen of Tiamat wasn't in the ritual...it was, only as a great mask..subtle.
Any speculations and comment welcome. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Oct 2017 : 07:13:36
I don't think even a planar phenomenon like River Styx can truly "erase" a god. It can certainly brainwipe the immersed being, sure, and it's a seemingly eternal cosmic fixture so its power is unlikely to be diluted by passing ages (along with future edition changes). But the Styx does not wipe out the external faith. Memory always passes to history then to legend then to myth, all things die and decay given enough time, so even faiths and distantly dim or distorted records of faiths cannot endure forever. Yet the Astral is filled with "dead" powers who no longer have any identity or any worshippers or any consciousness ... and which still remain as indestructible symbols of lost faiths and lost belief constructs ... it appears that whatever divine "spirit" or "essence" created these gods has also created an indelible imprint on the cosmos. Some of these "dead" and "lost" powers are "resurrected" or "reincarnated", Anubis is one "recent" example, the githyanki city-god "Tu'narath" might be another (they revere and worship it in some way to siphon divine energy), and Moander in the Realms might be yet another.
It's interesting to note that (then mortal) Finder was "erased" from existence in something of the opposite manner. All memory, all history, all records, all hints of Finder's whole life and existence, even his name, was erased from the Realms (through methods unknown but involving Elminster and probably the god Milil). Imperfectly erased. Still remembered by a few mortals. Still enough traces remaining for Cassana to (re)discover Finder and release him from imprisonment. All evidence of Finder removed from the world, yet he and his own memories left intact aside from extracting all knowledge of his (former) identity.
- Reincarnated souls often retain memories of their former lives and qualities of their former identities. Even after dying and being reformatted.
- Elven spirits and dragon anima also retain some echoes of their former selves when returning from their afterlives. More faded and difficult to recall after many centuries or millennia, though.
- "Petitioners", souls/spirits/etc of the deceased who attain "eternal" afterlives on the Outer Planes, also recall (and relive) their past lives, although their recollections get hazy over time and they eventually lose themselves while dissolving/merging into the substances of their deities and planar realms.
Overall it's pretty much the same thing, in the end, as those unfortunates who are stuffed into the Wall of the Faithless, if each ultimate "destination" in the afterlife is becoming an "eternal" part of whatever was loved/believed most when living - although the process itself, for those outside the Wall, is likely not as unpleasant.
- Orcus and Graz'zt still retain some fundamental remnants of their evil mortal selves, even after their souls have been consumed and corrupted and transformed through ever higher (lower?) orders of raw evil potency.
- Planescape: Torment's Nameless One (who may have been "Yemeth" or Zerthimon in his earliest lives) is an immortal cursed (tormented by) tangled and disjointed half-recollections of his own endless pasts (which sometimes manifest as independent "incarnations" acting to aid or oppose him), he's been dosed with lots of Styx yet cannot escape the constant "reminders" he encounters of his "old" selves in a world filled with people who remember him/them.
So I agree that it's impossible to truly "destroy" an eternal soul/etc. There's powerful magics which can bring back memories of past iterations, though the most ancient and distant ones are increasingly inaccessible. There's even a recurring theme of sorts in which (through whatever sort of "godlike" intervention) a soul reaches it's "limits" when stretched across too many lifetimes without being able to forget. Combine this with a deity's "indelible imprint" on the cosmos (which might become a thing intuitively embedded deep within the subconscious mind/instinct of potential faithful ever-onwards) and I think it is truly impossible to "destroy" a deity. Even for an overgod like Ao. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Oct 2017 : 01:44:59
Only in the revolving door that is death in the Forgotten Realms. Other pantheons have deities that are well and truly gone. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 16:26:50
I don't think even Ao can truly destroy a deity forever. Even mortals are hard as heck to completely destroy.
First, you'd have to completely turn the God mortal somehow, which is pretty hard in itself. Then you have to take the 'spirit' of the god and throw it in the River Styx. |
| Corruption |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 15:55:13
I think that summed up, Ao is the only one there who can truly make or destroy a Diety.
(The type of Avatar of Esterlee killed is called a Host)
I personally think all these world shaking events are just an excuse to change the world IC to reflect changes for new editions that will be made.
A possible IC excuse given for them being that Ao is shaking things up when his charges upset the balance too much. That's how I'd like to imagine it.
Of course, it means Ao is a bumbling idiot for allowing things to get this bad and not stepping in to fix the problems properly. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 13:24:12
quote:
Originally posted by Corruption
The bodies of Gods can contain power, and their Divine Spark. Asmodeous himself devoured the Divine Spark in the body of Azuth, after the explosion caused by his death sent his body into the Nine Hells.
[...]
Lloth once killed a Goddess and tried to have her name erased from existance, but that failed. The Drow Goddess of Undeath tried to make a weapon to erase another Deity's name from existance, but it was used on her and it destroyed her.
This actually makes me wonder if a creature can ever truly take the divine spark of a god, or if the divine spark of a god can ever truly die. In other words, from all the events that happened in the Realms, it seems to me that the spark of a deity is connected to the deity's identity, and that they are basically immune to being actually stolen or destroyed.
We know now that, while Asmodeous took Azuth's divinity, he 1)didn't gain his portfolios 2)Azuth wasn't actually killed. He wasn't dead when he landed to Baator, it was Asmo that supposedly killed him. However, it turned out that Azuth wasn't completely subdued, and he ended up freeing himself with his own divine spark (although that required Asmodeus being provided with the spark of another dead god).
Kiaransalee's memory wasn't actually erased, and she wasn't actually destroyed. She kept holding power on--and being remembered in relation to--the things that were closest to her. Namely, undeath and related rituals. This allowed her to return in full (just like Orcus too returned).
All the memories and identities of the previous versions of Mystra are part of her new incarnation.
Jergal willingly gave away his portfolio, but he still is divine.
Deities that were killed by weapons supposed to destroy their very essence, either managed to come back like a normal dead power could (Selvetarm), or were even revealed to have actually survived, only to return to their full strength later on (Eilistraee--even though, in her case, only a particular kind of avatar was hit by the weapon, not the goddess herself. Truth to be told, the artifact had also lost power, so both cases are rather arguable).
Finder took Moander's power (btw, Lathander is no longer down, and he wasn't when Finder got his power), Lolth took many of his followers, yet Moander still has a spark of divinity, and that's enough to make him able to influence the world and be a warlock patron, and to potentially make him ascend again in the future.
In short, in the end, it seems that a divine spark always tends to go back (or remain with) its rightful owner/identity and that it can never truly be destroyed. |
| Corruption |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 10:55:20
This is going to be a bit of a long post for me, and reffering to older posts here.
Firstly, the term for the types of being Eltheron wants the characters to become is Quasi-Deity, not Demi-God. Demi-Gods need power, hold a portfolio and need Ao's permission. Quasi-Deities do not and gain an aspect of the God's power, such as unaging, resistance to damage and more. They are unable to gain power via being believed in.
Being a Chosen is merely one way to become a Quasi-Deity (QD). Another is to be born to a Deity. Face it, how can something who has just been born have enough worshippers to become a God? Sometimes mortals recieves traces ofsuch power.
Passing on power to others, even Godhood does not require death of the one passing it one. For example, the Deadly 3 recieved their Godhoods from Jergal, and he's still around. Tempus made a mortal a God of some tribes of barbarians, and both are still around.
Avatars tend to die when their core God dies, but Hosts can live on. One Host of Bane tried to regain Godhood by absorbing the powerof a Chosen of Mystria. He failed as he happened to have the body and submerged memories of a lover of hers, and she managedto free the unwilling host.
The bodies of Gods can contain power, and their Divine Spark. Asmodeous himself devoured the Divine Spark in the body of Azuth, after the explosion caused by his death sent his body into the Nine Hells.
A God who becomes one by taking the power of another God is often overwhelmed and becomes a version of the (such as Tiamat).Even Gods can be affected. Look at the history of Sharess and Selvetarm. However, strength of will can allow mortals overcome this (for example, Finder and a son of Bhaal who had the chance to become God of Murder due to being the last such child remaining from some murdering the rest. He killed the other last one who was part of that group.)
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
AH! Philosophical and fictional metaphysics! A debate I can enter feeling prepared. I think that for most deities there is some minimal, raw, lower limit that they can fall to. A point at which the only thing sustaining them is half-forgotten legends, faint memories, and dream stuff. In fantasy worlds like this, where belief makes gods and the mind and soul really do have separate existences, I think ideas like the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious]collective unconscious[/url] play a role. There must be some fragments or bits of barely remembered belief lumped into the racial memory of humanity (or other species) tapped into through this shared unconscious, giving just enough energy for a god to avoid total dissolution.
I think you could argue this memory of a god could last for however long it takes for worshipers to remember it. However, if you want or need a time pressure on it? Then you should apply one.
I love these kinds of world-building ideas too, and going back and forth figuring them out. I say world-building because it will eventually impact the way my particular version of the Realms will work on a cosmic level. I hope I can do what I want without it being too much of a giveaway for my players, as it's never good for them to know the nuts & bolts of a setting, kinda spoils the fantasy fun in some ways for them.
I love the idea that bits of recorded history and half-forgotten legends could be a kind of faith that sustains a dying deity. It also makes me think about when societies transform or come into conflict with others, how gods can be killed, merged, or re-imagined having a new role in whatever new system emerges for that culture. Personally, I prefer it in fantasy when the world's own history, what the people do and believe, are more important. D&D tends to have fairly active deities that show up sometimes asking for dinner, though, which gives a lot of agency to the deity itself.
I remember on FR book where a girl managed to call on the mostly forgotten Gods of a tribe of people in prayer to aid her. The entire tribe was almost forgotten to history, and the Gods were just minor story characters in legends. Still, weak as they were, they had an effect.
Lloth once killed a Goddess and tried to have her name erased from existance, but that failed. The Drow Goddess of Undeath tried to make a weapon to erase another Deity's name from existance, but it was used on her and it destroyed her.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
If I recall correctly, they didn't used to be so limited by the faith of their followers. That was something Ao did after the Time of Troubles, wasn't it?
I think Faith is almost a limitless power source to a deity, and I get that idea by way of my partial read-through of Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons (FR source book). The Divine Rank stat is as close to a representation of how much worship a deity receives as I think we're going to get. But Divine Rank isn't something you spend that recharges, it's a measure of "this is all the stuff you can do". So the power they get from worship is sort of inexhaustible, but the feats they can perform with it increase in strength as the amount of worship does.
Yes, I think I did read somewhere that AO made them much more dependent on faith from followers, taking down all of their power by a notch or two. Divine rank bothers me a little, in that I'd kind of prefer a system where a god might not have a ton of worshipers but still remain quite powerful, but I think D&D designers wanted deity power to be a bit more driven by numbers (I guess so it'd make sense when players want to attack a deity or its avatar).
quote:
I'd say so too! Because I'm a little confused on all of what you just said there...
Like Midnight became the goddess of magic, Mystra. When she did, she gained much of the former goddess's knowledge and memories (probably because she'd been entrusted with a fragment of the goddess), but it wasn't her absorbing another god and merging with it. Just sort of downloading the memories.
Cyric didn't gain any of that. He killed his way to the top. Nor did Kelemvor when he lead a coup in the underworld, seizing the title from Cyric. He relied on Jergal for the knowledge of past gods of death.
What examples would you want to share on this one?
Oh sorry, by having a kind of "shell" I was avoiding the words "persona" or "skin" for a god. For example, in the Piers Anthony series about the gods, you'll have mortals step in and take the place of a previous mortal who held the "office" of a god, and they're literally moving a new person into the same body or shell that has existed forever.
In the Realms, as you said, new gods like Kelemvor or Cyric can take the power of previous gods, and somehow reject all of the memories of that former deity. I think Finder did something similar, rejecting practically everything about Moander except the power (and curiously, I think, holding a new portfolio that challenges Milil, both existing in the primary pantheon with much the same function).
But then other gods die or have their power absorbed, and the person or other god absorbing that power seems to be totally overwhelmed with and becomes swamped with the memories and personality of the dead god (the former "shell" if you will), and they either merge personalities or the dead god will overwhelm them. Mystryl becoming Mystra might be a good example, but also I think here about Lolth totally swamping new mortals that she absorbs (they become an avatar form) and Bane completely subsuming his son as part of his rebirth. Then we have weird stuff like Lathander and Amaunator (and perhaps another "dusk god" form) who seem to evolve into their other personas at need.
I'm almost beginning to wonder if different rules apply for different gods, sometimes. :)
As far as I can see the same rules apply for all.
About Finder gaining a seemingly new Domain for Art,that is not actually breaking the rules. He explained it to Joel, his Chosen Priest. When he got Corruption, he also got things like Change, Nature, and part of the Cycle of Nature. The opposite of Corruption is Renewal, and by being able to affect Corruption he can thus affect Renewal. He focused it towards art, giving him that Domain for his Portfolio. He is not break the rules, but corrupted them, which is it totally allowed to do as part of his Domain of Corruption.
Milil holds Song or Art. Finder holds Renewal, although possibly as an aspect of Corruption.
Put another way, Finder has corrupted the rules in his own favor. With Lathander down, he may be unopposed for Renewal.
Mystria may seem all powerful, but is not. In one of the books about Cyric's trial, she tried to get a God of learning to help her oppose the others, (I think it was Deniar), but he asked her if she could provide his people with healing when the other would not give it, Sunlight when Lathander would not, calm the storms Tempus makes, and more. She had to admit she could not.
For worshippower meaning power, A God's Domains can influence things. During Lloth's Silence, the Drow Demi-God of Warriors managed to defeat the Masked Lord, an Intermerate Drow God of thieves and assassins when he tried to assassinate Lloth.
But back to what the thread was meant to be about: A group of adventurers could become Quasi-Dieties by recieving power from a Demi-God, or even something Divine power has been stores in.
If the power is given the the group by a Demi-God, it would be split up enough so none would be a Demi-God themselves.
If the Demi-God figured it was going to be killed by another God, then that would be one way to deny it's killer it's power. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 06:41:25
True. Really the only example I'm aware of.
I suppose Laeral's situation was a bit of a special case, too.
This sort of speculation seems to be more suitably determined by story plot/narrative than by game rules/mechanics. As in, each circumstance is unique and "complicated". |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 06:29:20
why yes
Sammaster was once a chosen of mystra.
and he was corupted by a preist of bane iirc which caused him to attack alustriel etc.. . along came a few more chosen to her aide.... caused him to be stripped nakid of hsi chosen ability.... till he gets killed and rises again as a lich just to fall again. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 06:06:42
Are there any canon examples of Chosen vs Chosen conflict? To the "death"? Any conflicts between Chosens who nominally serve the same deity? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 05:38:42
A great many spellcasters only gave Mystra "lip-service" in AD&D editions. There are descriptions of manly old-school Red Wizards seething under the tacit requirement of worshipping Mystra (a good-aligned, egalitarian, and decidedly female deity), they'd circumvent this requirement by invoking some other deity (Kossuth, Myrkul, Velsharoon, Xvim, even Azuth) instead whenever possible.
I completely understand WotC choosing to de-emphasize and abandon these sorts of misogynistic notions in Realmslore. And I agree with it, no need to perpetuate outdated forms of discrimination onto impressionable young minds moving forward.
But on the other hand, these "traditional" evil-wizard stereotypes are just that much more despicable when embellished with these sorts of close-minded prejudices. I imagine it would be easy to explain Red Wizards (at least the "traditional" ones) automatically "hating" Mystra and distrusting her Weave, turning to other (more reliable, and - to them - more palatable) alternatives. Likewise other evil groups like the Cult of the Dragon, the Shar-worshipping Shadovar, Bane-worshipping Zhents, etc. In fact, a great many groups (evil, neutral, even good) turning away from Mystra and towards whatever deities they prefer.
I think this sort of thing could collectively represent a significant loss of power for Mystra. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 04:51:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The usual rule of thumb is that higher-power deities always trump lower-power deities. There could be countless complicating factors and exceptions, any intelligent deity would align favourable factors as much as possible before attacking, any defending deity would be supported by the faith, the Chosen himself/herself would be a combatant, but basically Greater Power (Mystra) always wins the arm wrestle vs Lesser Power (Azuth).
She was a greater power before... however, all the gods of magic are newly returned (Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Azuth, Deneir, Mystra, etc...). Nothing says she is again, and as Markustay just noted, there may be some problems with people trusting the weave. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Sep 2017 : 04:28:20
Some of what you said there Sleyvas gives me a few ideas. For example, what if Mystra is the Goddess of The Weave (Uh-DOH!). However, 'Weave Casting' on Toril was rather shoddy for the past century (actually nigh-impossible the first few years of the Spellplague), and it was never 'a thing' in/on Abier (or Maztica, and perhaps elsewhere, for that matter). So although Mystra was always billed as 'THE Goddess of magic', that was just her clever clergy and ease-of-use Weave that sold that piece of propaganda (I'm harkening back to one of my earliest theories now).
So in 5e, there are other methods of 'doing magic', and some of those methods might fall under another god's purview, or even a quasi-deity (like an arch-something), or even be completely free of any sort of 'divine controls' (I'm thinking Bardic magic would be a perfect example of this last one). So even though Mystra's 'back', things are very different now, and people just don't trust 'Weave Magic' the way they use to. Even casters who use it probably learn at least one alternate (take a dip into another class, or PrC, or whatever 5e is using for multiclassing). This leaves a rather big opening for other Powers, including those who used to 'work for' Mystra, like Azuth and Savras (and to a lesser extent, Velsharoon).
She's just not the 'Monolithic Uber-Power' she use to be, and she may never fully recover that, post-Spellplague era. Too much was lost because of the collapse of the Weave for people to ever feel comfortable fully trusting it with their lives again. Its like what happens when a nuclear power plant turns into an atomic explosion... no-one's moving next to another plant anytime too soon (the way Richard Lee Bryers described some of the effects of the 'Cerulean Wave' - turning folks inside out, and worse... that was The Weave itself uncoiling and wreaking havoc on reality). The post-Spellplage world was very much a post-apocalyptic world in many areas. Even Mystra can't recover from that much PR damage. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Sep 2017 : 05:27:01
The usual rule of thumb is that higher-power deities always trump lower-power deities. There could be countless complicating factors and exceptions, any intelligent deity would align favourable factors as much as possible before attacking, any defending deity would be supported by the faith, the Chosen himself/herself would be a combatant, but basically Greater Power (Mystra) always wins the arm wrestle vs Lesser Power (Azuth). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 16:24:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It was just a passing idea, lol. I'd somehow assumed from my first reading of the context that Azuth has the choice to work with or for Mystra (and might hypothetically choose to forcibly wrest the divine power out of a Chosen without Mystra's "consent" or assistance). It opens the question of how much free will and power Azuth possessed, whether he could (voluntarily) oppose Mystra, etc. All moot points now for a variety of reasons, lol.
Except for the idea of one deity forcibly wresting divine power from another deity's Chosen. Could the power be claimed/taken or would it be "lost forever"? Either outcome would suffice if the objective is just to weaken the other deity. What if the attacking deity is a higher power than the Chosen's deity? There must be some reason this isn't (can't be) done or it would've been done (many times?) before, a Chosen is a "weak" target (compared to a proper deity, anyhow) and some deities just don't play nice or obey rules. Ao forbids it? Asmodeus would be constrained by Ao's rules?
Maybe not so moot since he's back. Based upon what Azuth did to Savras, one can say he is power hungry to a degree. Also, given that if the "new" Mystra is the pre-ToT Mystra reborn OR the Simbul.... he may see both of these as petulant, arrogant personalities (after all, the Mysta I barged up the celestial stairway as an avatar and challenged a full god.... and the Simbul is known for her emotional outbursts). Azuth may actually see himself as a more stable steward of the weave, and honestly, I'm not sure that the other gods of magic would disagree with that (even Savras, since Azuth did eventually release him). Even alternative gods of "magic" like Deneir, Auppenser, etc... may see Azuth as a more viable choice.
Then again, with the whole idea of portfolios kind of being able to be shared with multiple deities.... i.e. you can have multiple gods of war... perhaps somehow it could end up that more than one deity is steward over the weave itself. For instance, if Azuth took on the portfolio of maintaining ley lines and extending them into magic dead areas via his clergy, it could begin to overlap with Mystra's maintaining of the "weave" (which is more than just the interconnected magic). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 05:32:13
It was just a passing idea, lol. I'd somehow assumed from my first reading of the context that Azuth has the choice to work with or for Mystra (and might hypothetically choose to forcibly wrest the divine power out of a Chosen without Mystra's "consent" or assistance). It opens the question of how much free will and power Azuth possessed, whether he could (voluntarily) oppose Mystra, etc. All moot points now for a variety of reasons, lol.
Except for the idea of one deity forcibly wresting divine power from another deity's Chosen. Could the power be claimed/taken or would it be "lost forever"? Either outcome would suffice if the objective is just to weaken the other deity. What if the attacking deity is a higher power than the Chosen's deity? There must be some reason this isn't (can't be) done or it would've been done (many times?) before, a Chosen is a "weak" target (compared to a proper deity, anyhow) and some deities just don't play nice or obey rules. Ao forbids it? Asmodeus would be constrained by Ao's rules? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 04:26:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"That doesn't stop Azuth ..."
An interesting weapon for Asmodeus's arsenal, if deployed against Mystra's Chosen within certain game/lore editions.
It also said "working with her", which pretty much precludes Asmodeus doing anything. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 04:20:00
"That doesn't stop Azuth ..."
An interesting weapon for Asmodeus's arsenal, if deployed against Mystra's Chosen within certain game/lore editions. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 04:00:36
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We haven't seen it happen, to its conclusion, yet in Realmslore. But what happens when one Chosen kills another? This "investment" or "battery" of divine power is no longer "contained" ... is it reabsorbed by the deity or is it a permanent loss? Realmslore has sort of established a "tradition" in which such releases of divine energy are spectacular and even violent events of great magnitude.
I recall Ed posting somewhere - likely here at the 'Keep - that if a Chosen died, their silverfire/sliver of divinity was re-absorbed by Mystra. If however a Chosen was stripped of their special status (ala Sammaster) that sliver of divinity was lost to Mystra forever, weakening her in the process. As such, a decision by Mystra to strip an individual of their Chosen status was taken only extremely rarely.
-- George Krashos
Close, but not quite. I recall this one, because it was in response to me:
quote:
Ed’s reply does indeed “imply that once a being becomes a Chosen, Mystra can't reclaim from that person her own essence.” You point out that “that's exactly what is described as having happened to Sammaster: thru Azuth, Mystra's essence was removed from Sammaster.”
EXACTLY. Sammaster’s silver fire was taken through the actions of Azuth, another deity.
Mystra can forcibly wrest her divine essence (the silver fire) directly from a mortal, but in doing so loses it forever, weakening herself (it does not ‘find its way back to her’ in the normal way, but is GONE). So she won’t do it.
That doesn’t stop Azuth, working with her, from doing it (she’d probably fight any other deity trying it on a mortal located on Toril, and win by using the Weave against them).
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 02:01:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We haven't seen it happen, to its conclusion, yet in Realmslore. But what happens when one Chosen kills another? This "investment" or "battery" of divine power is no longer "contained" ... is it reabsorbed by the deity or is it a permanent loss? Realmslore has sort of established a "tradition" in which such releases of divine energy are spectacular and even violent events of great magnitude.
I recall Ed posting somewhere - likely here at the 'Keep - that if a Chosen died, their silverfire/sliver of divinity was re-absorbed by Mystra. If however a Chosen was stripped of their special status (ala Sammaster) that sliver of divinity was lost to Mystra forever, weakening her in the process. As such, a decision by Mystra to strip an individual of their Chosen status was taken only extremely rarely.
-- George Krashos |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 01:36:16
I'm not sure I agree that there's a blurry boundary condition between mortal and god.
It seems there is a threshold, mortals on one side, deities on the other. You ascend and live forever or you fail and die real quick. Even "Rank zero" quasi-deities and exarchs and Chosens and mortal-born demigods and demi-heroes have an "eternal" existence. I think we are stuck with arrogant fools like Karsus and Cyric for eternity, no matter how "dead" or "dormant" their forms and powers and essences might be. Even a god killed or absorbed by another (Cyric vs Leira, Torm vs Bane, etc) can later be miraculously revived to living godhood (Cyric vs Leira, Torm vs Bane, lol). I speculate that even the most ancient deities continue to exist "eternally", even Tyche (who split into Tymora and Beshaba) and Mystryl (who was reborn as First Mystra) and Kozah (who was also Gruumsh and now Talos). If all deities are eternal then so is Karsus.
But consider his status more closely - he appears to be "dormant", not dead, not alive, not changing - exactly the sort of "stasis" condition you suggest. Is he cocooned in some sort of chrysalis, undergoing an (interrupted) transformation towards godhood? Is he simply dying, his energies imperceptibly dwindling and depleting over passing millennia? Is he imprisoned, inescapably locked/entombed within his shell as a consequence (or punishment) of his mistake?
I prefer the first possibility, the chrysalis, along with some "quantum" uncertainty - Karsus is the Realms version of Shrodinger's cat, and since it's impossible to know the outcome (or even the possibility) of Karsus "awakening" from his chrysalis-superposition, he can (for convenience) be categorically defined simultaneously as a god and as a not-god, the "between" state you suggest. The important detail here is that it's implied the "box" can (and must) be opened at some point for the experiment to conclude and the conditions/distinctions to meaningfully exist, we cannot determine/define/assert an exact status onto the cat or the Karsus without admitting (as at least a theoretical possibility) that it is a condition/event which can (even must!) eventually occur.
There also seems to be another threshold between gods and overgods, not a transition zone in between them. But we have no examples of any such in D&D lore, except (maybe, perhaps) Anubis as "half-overgod" of the Astral. |
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