| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 12:27:37
So, I was originally a bit miffed (as in annoyed, but not hating)that they had entirely ignored the whole death of Tchazzar from the novels. However, if it weren't in the old empires area, I'd take a whole different meaning to the wording below. Down there, incarnations are the mortal descendants of gods who are specifically chosen to possess some portion of said god's spirit. In return they gain special powers naturally and usually have more hit dice, etc... Its almost like a Chosen, though much more powerful. Usually there's a manifestation (physical form) and then there are actually multiple incarnations at a time. I state this, because there are instances where they state things like "all the incarnations of Horus-Re were killed, and for a short time an incarnation of Thoth ruled".
So, in this instance, do they actually mean incarnation or incarnation ? Is there a half-dragon or dragon-blooded Chessentan (or even a full dragon, though this I'd rather not) sitting on the throne of Erebos who is a descendant of Tchazzar? If so, how is this possible if the manifestation is dead. Or was this "manifestation" simply an avatar that was killed, and now the god Tchazzar is so weakened that he is unable to create a new one.... but he could manifest his power in a descendant as an incarnation? I don't believe that Tchazzar ever was an outer planar entity, so I can't see him having a godly essence out there, but just as the weakened avatars during the ToT could still exist as a ghostly form after their deaths... maybe he lives on as some form of divine ghost dragon and he helps guide his son?
From the SCAG below
Chessenta.
A collection of city-states bound by common culture and mutual defense, Chessenta isn't truly a nation. Each city boasts its own heroes, worships its own gladiatorial champions, and spends as much time insulting and competing with the other cities as it does on any other activity. The city of Luthcheq is dominated by worship of the bizarre deity known as Entropy, while Erebos is ruled by the latest incarnation of the red dragon known as Tchazzar the Undying. Heptios contains the largest library in Chessenta, a center of learning where all nobles aspire to send their children for tutoring. That city is looked on with disdain by the people of Akanax, whose militant contempt for the "fat philosophers" of Heptios is widely known. Toreus welcomes all visitors, even those from lands that are despised or mistrusted, and foreign coin can buy nearly anything there. The floating city of Airspur still flies somehow, its
earthmotes unaffected by the fall of its fellows when the Sundering came to a close. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 03:15:44
I guess it was a slip on the part of the editing team. Perhaps there were plans to introduce Cyric back in those days.
In universe, I saw this as a "modern" translation of the myth, made by Cyricists in the few months Cyric was the god of death. More propaganda and lies, like certain other book made by those madmen. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 28 Aug 2017 : 21:36:46
Regarding the Loviatar/Cyric myth... Is it too much of a stretch to consider the idea that Cyric could be a word or title in the Kadari language? Perhaps meaning "Dead King" or "Worm King" or something to that effect... Thereby, making the lore accurate (yet afflicted by a similar kind of translation issue that crops up in RW religious/spiritual/mythical texts)... AND making THE Cyric's name a bit grim foreshadowing of his eventual divine fate (coincidence that Kadari is a language from the Land of Fate? I think not)... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 28 Aug 2017 : 04:58:53
Even if there weren't "connections", it makes sense that FR would draw it's influences from RW mythologies. Fairly common pratice in fantasy (some with more originality than others). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Aug 2017 : 04:31:43
The Greeks - and later the Romans - borrowed stuff from the Babylonians, who quite clearly borrowed heavily from the Sumerians. In fact, i never understood why we got both those pantheons in the old DD book; that, too me, would be like listing the Greek and Roman pantheons as two separate things (DC comics made that mistake).
Just like there is a version of 'ki' in most Eurasian mythologies. The further back you go, the more clearly you can see it all started out as ONE mythology (well, actually two, or rather, two versions of the same 'war', told from the different sides). One of THE most ancient gods - Hermes - started out in Africa. The Greeks just borrowed him because he was cool, and then he spread all over Europe (and supposedly, he even still has cults to this day). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Aug 2017 : 02:49:35
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ironically, the story we see in the Complete Book of Necromancers regarding Loviatar going to visit Cyric in Erkalla mirrors the story of Inanna visiting her sister Ereshkigal who ruled the underworld
It's also not terribly different from the story of Demeter, Persephone, and Hades, from Greek mythology. It's similar enough that I'd call it the same story, just given an FR overlay.
Not so similar. Demeter and Persephone didn't go down to Hades essentially armed to the teeth and have to pass through certain gates and give up their clothes/weapons as they passed through. Also, its thought in history that the story of Demeter/Persephone is an extract of this story of Inanna. However, Inanna is a much more power hungry goddess than Demeter (I'm really liking this chick).
No, but both stories have a goddess in the land of the dead, and a related goddess trying to get her out, and the end result is that the imprisoned goddess can leave but has to go back to the land of the dead every winter.
Being armed and passing thru the gate are just different details on the exact same story. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Aug 2017 : 02:30:52
The Raven Queen is a young goddess... heck, she is considered "young" even in Nentir Vale, and she is around in that world like after the end of the main battle of the Dawn War (the gods/estelars vs primordials battle). We can say she is a young as Glasya (and Glasya is from around the same age, as well).
So, we can have Ereshkigal as Ereshkigal, and the Raven Queen as Midnight using either Ereshkigal's divine spark, or being connected to the Raven Queen from the whole multiverse (the Planescape solution). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Aug 2017 : 01:27:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ironically, the story we see in the Complete Book of Necromancers regarding Loviatar going to visit Cyric in Erkalla mirrors the story of Inanna visiting her sister Ereshkigal who ruled the underworld
It's also not terribly different from the story of Demeter, Persephone, and Hades, from Greek mythology. It's similar enough that I'd call it the same story, just given an FR overlay.
Not so similar. Demeter and Persephone didn't go down to Hades essentially armed to the teeth and have to pass through certain gates and give up their clothes/weapons as they passed through. Also, its thought in history that the story of Demeter/Persephone is an extract of this story of Inanna. However, Inanna is a much more power hungry goddess than Demeter (I'm really liking this chick).
The story with Loviatar and Inanna are much more similar. Also factor in the whole thing with the name of the place being Mesopotamian. That being said, I didn't mention this to make an argument that Loviatar and Inanna are the same person. However, I suspect that the story of Loviatar didn't involve Cyric, but rather Jergal. I also suspect that Nergal and Jergal as lords of the dead however MAY have some crossover (even though I'm of the belief that Jergal is some kind of ascended spellweaver). Essentially, when Nergal died, I suspect that at least down in the Shaar there was SOME KIND of heresy and Jergal started answering in Nergal's name.
To add into this, I suspect that Loviatar was also a goddess being worshipped down in the Shaar (maybe even by Ilythiiri... though I won't push that concept), as were Untheric gods (such as Inanna), and Mesopotamian gods such as Ereshkigal. So, we could have Ereshkigal (as the Raven Queen), who eventually "marries" Nergal (which is not something I'm making up). She dies somehow and leaves Irkalla to Nergal.
So, possibly two stories, but with similar occurrences because that's how the lords of this underworld handles things. The first was Inanna heading down to the underworld to try and have "something" done (which is unclear) and having to appear before Ereshkigal/The Raven Queen naked. The second being Loviatar heading down to rescue her sister from Nergal or Jergal (Ereshkigal's replacement) and him following "procedure" and making her strip her accoutrements of power as well.
To make things even more interesting, we're now also talking about Kelemvor possibly being put into a similar situation of sorts with the soul of midnight.... and who are we having talk with him and whisper ideas about bonding Midnight's soul with the divine spark of the raven queen? Jergal... who in this storyline, may have once been married to the raven queen (though to read it, there wasn't a lot of love there).
There's a seed here. I'm just not sure how to weave it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2017 : 15:53:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ironically, the story we see in the Complete Book of Necromancers regarding Loviatar going to visit Cyric in Erkalla mirrors the story of Inanna visiting her sister Ereshkigal who ruled the underworld
It's also not terribly different from the story of Demeter, Persephone, and Hades, from Greek mythology. It's similar enough that I'd call it the same story, just given an FR overlay. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Aug 2017 : 15:23:17
Wow, talk about "a woman scorned".
Except for the name of the place (I hadn't noticed the name of the city before - I just assumed it was made-up by the writer of that piece), the details are all very different (beyond the overall story of 'a god goes to hell', which is recurring in mythology - read Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand faces, which is a brilliant cross-comparison of dozens of mythologies/religions).
Since the only 'sister' Loviatar is missing (in some myths Mielikki is also a sister) is Kiputytto, who was defeated by Talona sometime right after the fall of Netheril (within a few centuries). Since Cyric wasn't even born yet, my other assumption is that Kiputytto wasn't killed in that conflict, but rather, she was 'comatose' (which is pretty-much what happens to all 'dead gods' - they never really die). She must have been 'reactivated' during the ToT, and being depowered, quickly died (and we could have all sorts of fun guessing who killed her, but my guess is that Talona finally finished the job). Loviatar finds out her sister was restored and then murdered, and goes and confronts the 'new god' Cyric. It nice and tidy, if I do say so myself.
Except for one thing I only just realized - if the story is in a book in Sahu, which is a 'Fallen kingdom', how the hell did they know about Cyric a thousand some odd years before he even appeared on the scene? So now I am thinking that scene - if it happened at all, had to have occurred immediately following Kiputytto's demise (her defeat by Talona), and Loviatar was really dealing with someone else. I don't think Finnish deities would be borrowing the Sumerian afterlife (they have their own), so I am thinking that must have been Myrkul, or maybe even Jergal (although I always pictured Jergal as the guy who opened the Gates). I'm not sure is Myrkul was Dusk Lord yet around 1 DR (give or take a century). Not sure how this sort of thing works cosmically - perhaps, even though Touni (Finnish death God) doesn't have a presence in the Realms, a Finnish deity who 'died a mortal death' would still go to his realm, and that very un-Cyric like deity may have been him. In which case, he has a wife - Tuonetar - who is 'an old crone', and sounds a lot like the way Talona is described (but maybe older). I'm not saying its Talona, but I am thinking that Goddesses of disease would all have that same unhealthy look about them. So maybe, 'Tuonetar' is Kiputytto's name when she is 'serving' her six months in 'hell' (and BTW, this perfectly mirrors the myth of Persephone in Greek mythology - a Goddess having to spend half the year in the Underworld with the God of the Dead). Of course, now I've gone WAY outside FR musings.
I chalk all of this up to 'bad translating'. My assumption here is that the translator of the book into common (so we can read it after Elminster gives a 'sanitized' copy of it to Ed Greenwood to pass on to TSR) was probably from the Old Empires, or possibly Durpur, and more familiar with 'southern myths' than northern ones, and used the wrong names for places (and maybe even personages). Thus, the copy we read is what would be in the Library of Candlekeep, since its very doubtful they have the original from Sahu (so unless we get NEW lore about Sahu and that book - and I think we'd have a better chance of getting a 5e Maztica book - we can guess what its really supposed to be to our heart's content. Personally, I'd prefer to keep at least Loviatar the same, because she's the central figure, and they are quite obviously describing her vestments (weapons/whatever). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Aug 2017 : 14:37:06
Regarding the Raven Queen, in reading more on Mesopotamian mythology and looking at the imagery of Ereshkigal, man there is some similarities. From the imagery that I see she was dark haired, ruled the underworld BEFORE Nergal, had wings, and it looks like she had bird claws for feet. I will also note she the land she rules was called Irkalla and sometimes Ereshkigal is known as Irkalla, which also plays into some later stuff.
Ironically, the story we see in the Complete Book of Necromancers regarding Loviatar going to visit Cyric in Erkalla mirrors the story of Inanna visiting her sister Ereshkigal who ruled the underworld
From Complete book of necromancers... noting maybe this is a "rewrite" similar to the Cyrinishad?
When Our Lady of Pain discovered her sister had left the Land of the Living and taken refuge in the World of the Dead, her wrath and fury were boundless. She descended to the Land of No Return, through the caverns and lower regions known only to this spirits, until she reached the city of Erkalla itself, ruled by Cyric, the King of the Dead. And Loviatar approached the gate of the city, known as Ganzir, and pounded her Flail of Tears on the door, demanding to be let in, but her command was unanswered, and her screams resounded through the streets of Erkalla:
"Gatekeeper, I am here at Ganzir before the Walls of Erkalla. Open these gates for me! I am Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, Mistress of Sorrow, and I shall smash down this door if you do not open it! I shall crack open the bolts with my Flail of Tears and sunder the iron with my Scourge of Despair. I shall release all the dead from city of Erkalla, and they shall climb up the stairs of the earth. I shall raise up the dead, and they shall eat the living: the dead shall outnumber the living!"
And the Gatekeeper appeared, and he opened the door, but he would not let Our Lady pass:
"Mighty Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, you cannot enter Erkalla with your symbols of Power. Leave them with me, and then you may visit the King."
Our Lady of Pain saw the truth in his words, and at the gate of the city, she stripped off her talismans. She gave up the Flail of Tears, surrendered the Scourge of Despair. She unwrapped her Robe of Severed Hands, and coiled up her Whip of Countless Afflictions. She unwrapped the spiked wire from her hair and plucked out the needles from her nails.
And at last Loviatar was finished, and the Gatekeeper escorted her into Cyric's dismal palace. And the King of the Dead saw Our Lady humbled, and in his throne room of glory, he heard her complaint. Cyric made his voice heard like a gavel of thunder, and he spoke loudly his judgment, with the following words:
"I am Cyric, Lord of Erkalla, and I welcome you to my pale domain. You have no power here in my most ancient city: over the dead only I am King. I have heard your request and will honor it. When you leave, your sister shall accompany you. But each winter she will come back and visit me, and I shall return her to your side in the summer."
Our Lady of Pain heard his pronouncement, and she left gladly with her sister beside her. Thus Loviatar ascended from the netherworld, resuming her just punishment of Man.
—"Loviatar's Descent into the Netherworld," recounted in the Nycoptic Manuscripts
then comparing that to the story of Inanna's descent into the Underworld
The story of Inanna's descent to the underworld is a relatively well-attested and reconstructed composition.
In Sumerian religion, the Kur was conceived of as dark, dreary cavern located deep underground; life there was envisioned as "a shadowy version of life on earth". It was ruled by Inanna's sister, the goddess Ereshkigal.[65] Inanna's reason for visiting the underworld is unclear. She tells the gatekeeper of the underworld that she wishes to attend the funeral rites of Ereshkigal's husband Gugalanna, but, in The Epic of Gilgamesh, Gugalanna is the Bull of Heaven, who is killed by Gilgamesh and Enkidu. To add further confusion, Ereshkigal's husband is typically the plague god Nergal.
Before leaving, Inanna instructs her minister and servant Ninshubur to plead with the deities Enlil, Nanna, Anu, and Enki to rescue her if she does not return after three days. The laws of the underworld dictate that, with the exception of appointed messengers, those who enter it may never leave.
Inanna dresses elaborately for the visit, with a turban, a wig, a lapis lazuli necklace, beads upon her breast, the 'pala dress' (the ladyship garment), mascara, pectoral, a golden ring on her hand, and she held a lapis lazuli measuring rod. These garments are each representations of powerful mes she possesses.Perhaps Inanna's garments, unsuitable for a funeral, along with Inanna's haughty behavior, make Ereshkigal suspicious.
Following Ereshkigal's instructions, Neti, the gatekeeper of the underworld, tells Inanna she may enter the first gate of the underworld, but she must hand over her lapis lazuli measuring rod. She asks why, and is told, "It is just the ways of the Underworld." She obliges and passes through. Inanna passes through a total of seven gates, at each one removing a piece of clothing or jewelry she had been wearing at the start of her journey, thus stripping her of her power. When she arrives in front of her sister, she is naked:
"After she had crouched down and had her clothes removed, they were carried away. Then she made her sister Erec-ki-gala rise from her throne, and instead she sat on her throne. The Anna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her – it was the look of death. They spoke to her – it was the speech of anger. They shouted at her – it was the shout of heavy guilt. The afflicted woman was turned into a corpse. And the corpse was hung on a hook."
Three days and three nights pass, and Ninshubur, following instructions, goes to the temples of Enlil, Nanna, An, and Enki, and pleads with each of them to rescue Inanna. The first three deities refuse, saying Inanna's fate is her own fault, but Enki is deeply troubled and agrees to help. He creates two sexless figures named gala-tura and the kur-jara from the dirt under the fingernails of the deities. He instructs them to appease Ereshkigal and, when she asks them what they want, ask for the corpse of Inanna, which they must sprinkle with the food and water of life. When they come before Ereshkigal, she is in agony like a woman giving birth. She offers them whatever they want, including life-giving rivers of water and fields of grain, if they can relieve her; nonetheless they take only the corpse.
The gala-tura and the kur-jara sprinkle Inanna's corpse with the food and water of life and revive her. Galla demons sent by Ereshkigal follow Inanna out of the Underworld, insisting that she is not free to go until someone else takes her place. They first come upon Ninshubur and attempt to take her, but Inanna stops them, insisting that Ninshubur is her loyal servant, who had rightly mourned her while she was in the underworld.They next come upon Shara, Inanna's beautician, still in mourning. The demons attempt to take him, but Inanna insists that they may not, as he too had mourned her. They next come upon Lulal, also in mourning. The demons try to take him, but Inanna stops them once again.
Finally, they come upon Dumuzid, Inanna's husband. Despite Inanna's fate, and in contrast to the other individuals who were properly mourning Inanna, Dumuzid is lavishly clothed and resting beneath a tree, or upon her throne, entertained by slave-girls. Inanna, displeased, decrees that the demons shall take him, using language which echoes the speech Ereshkigal gave while condemning her. The demons then drag Dumuzid down to the Underworld.
|
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 24 Aug 2017 : 16:20:14
Oh, definitely not offended... It's all hypothetical anyway.
I'm always modifying my cosmological perspective, ideas are always welcome. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Aug 2017 : 16:52:34
Lol okay. I hope I didn't offend. I was asking because I was curious, even if I don't agree. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 23 Aug 2017 : 14:08:29
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Hmm...why does the soul remain unchanged, though? To me, if only the body of the mortal ascended, then they aren't fully a deity. The soul needs to ascend, too, especially in cases like apotheosis. I'll use Shevarash as an example. He was a mortal elf sworn to vengeance, and when he died, he underwent apotheosis, becoming Shevarash the Dark Archer, elven god of vengeance. Because he ascended after his death, this would mean that his soul (or I guess spirit, in this case, since he's an elf) ascended to divinity.
My interpretation of Shevarash would be that his Spirit joined a Divine Form that already existed (perhaps had a different name), or he was provided a Divine Form to contain his Spirit by who or whatever sponsored his ascension (just because we don't have all the details doesn't preclude the possibility), and when his Spirit/Soul/Conciousness joined with all the others contained within the Divine Form, it assumed a new identity known as Shevarash.
We can agree to disagree on the metaphysical details, since it's all conceptual nuances anyway... If your interpretation works for your imagination, cool. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Aug 2017 : 18:57:12
Hmm...why does the soul remain unchanged, though? To me, if only the body of the mortal ascended, then they aren't fully a deity. The soul needs to ascend, too, especially in cases like apotheosis. I'll use Shevarash as an example. He was a mortal elf sworn to vengeance, and when he died, he underwent apotheosis, becoming Shevarash the Dark Archer, elven god of vengeance. Because he ascended after his death, this would mean that his soul (or I guess spirit, in this case, since he's an elf) ascended to divinity.
|
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 22 Aug 2017 : 18:37:27
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Well, this is why I said that when a mortal "ascends" (in this case, undergoing apotheosis), their entire being ascends, not just their mortal form. Their soul becomes divine as well. The transformation could allow them to have more than one soul, but their once mortal soul is now divine, too.
I completely understand what you're saying, and I haven't fully made up my mind regarding this... I am however, suggesting that my cosmological concept is not actually contradictory to the process of ascension that you've stated... I just think my interpretation of the terms is slightly different.
In my mind, the process of Apotheosis causes a Mortal Form to physically change into a Divine Form (the deity "template" is applied)... The original Mortal Soul is now contained within the Divine Form (the soul is essentially unchanged)... This Divine Form can also contain a infinite number of Mortal Souls... Within this context, I am defining "Divine Soul" more as a mathematical term to describe the cumulative effect of all the Souls contained within the Divine Form (even if there is only one soul). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Aug 2017 : 17:10:30
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Regarding Apotheosis, my general perspective is that every mortal soul is attached to a mortal form... So, if a mortal ascends to become a new unique deity, that process is altering the physical nature of the mortal form to become a divine form... A mortal form is limited in the number of mortal souls that it can contain, but a divine form is not...
Well, this is why I said that when a mortal "ascends" (in this case, undergoing apotheosis), their entire being ascends, not just their mortal form. Their soul becomes divine as well. The transformation could allow them to have more than one soul, but their once mortal soul is now divine, too. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 22 Aug 2017 : 15:57:37
Regarding Apotheosis, my general perspective is that every mortal soul is attached to a mortal form... So, if a mortal ascends to become a new unique deity, that process is altering the physical nature of the mortal form to become a divine form... A mortal form is limited in the number of mortal souls that it can contain, but a divine form is not...
In my mind, the word "Divine" in and of itself suggests that the ability to "Divide" is somehow requisite to Divinity (both Soul and Form)... And similarly, Mortality could be an inability to be divided further (both Soul and Form), reflecting their significance as the building blocks of Divine Power...
Furthermore, this kind of distinction could be useful in conceptualizing the various differences between Deities & Primordials... I generally think of Primordials as Soulless Divine Forms driven by Instinct... By contrast, Deities are Divine Forms that contain one or more Souls and are therefore driven by Inspiration...
This kind of distinction makes all of the conflicting Lore regarding Primordials & Deities compatible, without overwriting any of the established Lore... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Aug 2017 : 04:28:49
Yes, I think there would be a difference between normal 'ascension' and a mortal just being handed a God's stuff. In the one case they had an apotheosis, and in the other, they were just 'glued together'.
Still, I've always hypothesized that when a 'God' (deity?) loses its divinity, it just becomes a mortal soul again. Not quite the same thing as a God 'dying', but I think its close enough. We saw that in the case of Kiputytto - she was a normal 'dead soul' in Cyric's Realm just after the ToT (in the Complete Necromancers sourcebook). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 22:06:58
It may vary, and in some cases (like Mystra/Midnight), you could say the mortal soul "attached" to a divine form. But in other cases, the mortal underwent apotheosis, and ascended, without "attaching" itself to a previous divine form, as the mortal itself became divine. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 21:44:10
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
But when a mortal ascends to divinity, doesn't that mean its soul ascends, too? Therefore, it would no longer have a "mortal soul", it would have a "divine soul". After all, when a mortal becomes a god, it's not just the body that ascends, its the entire being, including the soul.
I'm presuming that ascension of a mortal soul to divinity, is a "mortal soul" becoming attached to a "divine form"... Perhaps many mortal souls can become attached or incorporated into a a single divine form (hence enabling multiple conflicting legends about the mortal identities of deities to be true)... The legend about Tyche splitting into Tymora and Beshaba made me think that if a Deity could split into a "Good" and "Evil" halves, it stands to reason that they could theoretically be split along any number of dualistic criteria... Good/Evil, Law/Chaos, Mortal/Immortal, etc... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 21:30:17
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Thanks for the compliments on my heretical lore.
Regarding the "Faithless" judgement, and Jergal's access to Kiaransalee/Raven Queen's divine form... I am suggesting that any soul that has attained divinity would be deemed "Faithless" because as a deity it would not and could not have a patron deity... normally when a deity dies it's form (including it's mortal soul, if it has one) goes to the Astral with Anubis, but in the excessively rare circumstance that a mortal soul is separated from it's divine form... The divine form may go to the Astral, but the Mortal soul would be redirected to the Fugue just like any other soul... It would have no patron god to claim it... So, the options would seem to me to be Asmodeus or the Wall...
But when a mortal ascends to divinity, doesn't that mean its soul ascends, too? Therefore, it would no longer have a "mortal soul", it would have a "divine soul". After all, when a mortal becomes a god, it's not just the body that ascends, its the entire being, including the soul. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 21:13:59
Oh, I had an afterthought regarding the context of my Raven Queen lore... In this presumed circumstance, after Kelemvor makes his vow and Midnight takes his side as the Raven Queen... Asmodeus grins with delight, because if Kelemvor's plan can come to fruition, it will mean that Asmodeus will have the opportunity to try and convince the god-souls to serve him rather be consigned to oblivion... So, Asmodeus would want to use his access to the Multi-verse to try and enable all the deities throughout the Multi-verse to get a foothold in the Realms (perhaps this is tied to all of the "this god=that god" confusion), but it's really just a long con... If it all goes according to Asmodeus' plan he will have tricked all the deities into making connections to the Realms, twisted Kelemvor's desire for Revenge, subverted Jergal's Ambition, and seized the power of all the gods of the Multiverse... IF all goes according to plan (Could Cyric be the wild-card that Asmodeus couldn't plan for? In 1000 years, will the Realms finally see the truth? Cyric=Savior?)  |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 20:21:52
Thanks for the compliments on my heretical lore.
Regarding the "Faithless" judgement, and Jergal's access to Kiaransalee/Raven Queen's divine form... I am suggesting that any soul that has attained divinity would be deemed "Faithless" because as a deity it would not and could not have a patron deity... normally when a deity dies it's form (including it's mortal soul, if it has one) goes to the Astral with Anubis, but in the excessively rare circumstance that a mortal soul is separated from it's divine form... The divine form may go to the Astral, but the Mortal soul would be redirected to the Fugue just like any other soul... It would have no patron god to claim it... So, the options would seem to me to be Asmodeus or the Wall...
Also, I am suggesting that perhaps the Fugue is partially coterminous with both the Astral and Shadowfell... Therefore, perhaps the divine forms of Undead Deities (beings that attained divinity after death, such as Kiaransalee/Raven Queen) are returned to the Fugue (since it is partially part of the Astral)...
Finally, I consider the Fugue to be a place outside of time... So, any relative measurements of time can all be true... It doesn't matter if something is described as a short time ago, or long time ago... It's all just some time in "the past"...
P.S.
If everyone likes my piece of heretical lore about the Raven Queen, I'll gladly submit it to be incorporated into the Candlekanon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 17:50:42
Yeah, thinking more on this - maybe 'tapping primordials' (sounds like my early twenties LOL) allows a mortal to access Raw magical energy (we've establish something to this effect elsewhere), but in the even rarer cases where someone got a hold of a somnambulant God (Estelar) - one who had a powerful connection to The Weave for many years - it could be used to tap-into the weave magic indirectly, in minute amounts.
And YES Zeromaru, we have many, MANY 'lost Gods' (I believe there are even two separate lists with that name), and I am extending the word 'God' to mean the broader definition of "anything that was considered a 'power source' in 4e". In the Taan (Hordelands) region, there is a place called, "The Cave of a 1000 Gods". I think that is a rather conservative estimate. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 13:02:56
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
What? Did Helm had a missing lover?  And here I though the guy was the boring one of the gods...
Seriously, though... I was thinking something similar. Though instead of using missing gods (that I had no idea they existed), I was thinking in using primordial corpses (a la Tymanchebar... yeah, if you ever wondered from where those dragonborn got their powerful artifacts, they scavenged Primordial tombs and used their remains-this is canon).
I was thinking the Halruaans used the heart/brains of a powerful primordial to create a fake mythallar to emulate the Weave in a given area (their country, in this case). Perhaps, a clan of dragonborn gave them this secret in exchange of allowing them living in their lands (safe and away from dragon overlords, the Shyran and the aberrant lords). This will allow me to develop Arkhosia in the Realms... mmmm....
But, as Abeirans may do not tell the difference between an Estelar and a Primordial...
One of the things I'm adding for this is the idea of having to tap into the dreams of powerful entities. In this case, it will be the dreams of a dying Mystra. This tapping into the dreams goes into some form of arcane focus that they then have to use to cast spells. Not sure if I like it, but I'm thinking maybe eventually someone on Abeir has to take over for Mystra as she finally "gives her all"... maybe even some construct of magic like an alias clone that was living in say Halruaa? Or maybe the Halruaans have to magically build Mystra a new body from a portion of Mystra I's blood which was secretly gathered during the Time of Troubles when she faced off against Helm using a process similar to the making of Alias (but with Velsharoon and Kelemvor instead of Moander providing the divine piece... hmmm, with the idea that we had for the Raven Queen this could be some interesting setup to get Midnight into TRQ, Mystra I back as Mystra and possibly Kia involved too).
That being said, up in Balduran Bay, I'm having a college of evocation that has captured a "Great Spirit" from that area who is essentially like a Primordial when you read his powers (think he was winter), and I was planning on them using him as they did the ancient artifact that was rumored to have been buried in Thay that went silent after the ToT. If I am having gods returning as weakened avatars, maybe they captured some from say the pantheons of Katashaka / Anchorome / Maztica / Lopango / Osse and possibly even some Primordials or powerful dragons as well. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 05:46:01
What? Did Helm had a missing lover? And here I though the guy was the boring one of the gods...
Seriously, though... I was thinking something similar. Though instead of using missing gods (that I had no idea they existed), I was thinking in using primordial corpses (a la Tymanchebar... yeah, if you ever wondered from where those dragonborn got their powerful artifacts, they scavenged Primordial tombs and used their remains-this is canon).
I was thinking the Halruaans used the heart/brains of a powerful primordial to create a fake mythallar to emulate the Weave in a given area (their country, in this case). Perhaps, a clan of dragonborn gave them this secret in exchange of allowing them living in their lands (safe and away from dragon overlords, the Shyran and the aberrant lords). This will allow me to develop Arkhosia in the Realms... mmmm....
But, as Abeirans may do not tell the difference between an Estelar and a Primordial... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 05:00:53
Okay, I don't know why this weird concept popped into my head - there was this picture of Caliban (Morlock from Xmen) where he was merged with Prof. X (it was a very convoluted story-line in which a wizard turned back time to the Hyborian Age - 'Medieval Avengers' were pretty cool) - the Wizard had basically turned him into a 'magical artifact' for finding super-powered beings (not just mutants, IIRC). It really has nothing at all to do with the topic, but that particular image - a 'poor anguished soul in torment, providing a service against his will' came to mind another time, when I was reading the Everis Cale books, when the Sojournor was capturing fiends and celestials and using them to make 'Weave Taps'. Another mental image I am getting - some powerful being 'frozen in horror (or just frozen), like how the celestials form a wall at the edge of universe (also Marvel Comics). They're all part of some vast wall, with their eyes and mouths open, with beams of light shooting out (as if they are screaming, but no-one can hear them).
Anyhow, those are the mental images that just popped into my head, and it made me think of those Weave Taps, and I thought - isn't that funny? Its a way of gathering and concentrating Weave-energy to be used somewhere else. So what if certain powerful people/beings on Abeir discovered a similar process - they may have captured primordials, Elder wyrrms, even gods, and are using them to to bring tiny amounts of Weave-energy into Abeir for their personal use. Basically, turning another being into just a 'magical battery'. I think there was a spelljamming helm that worked on similar principals (a Lifejammer?)
I just think it would be neat if your were to have a group of adventurers finding a strange 'cult' in Abeir, who could use magic (to a limited degree), and when the party goes to investigate, they find Murdane (or anyone else on the 'missing list') trapped and withering-away like a dessicated husk. They've been 'sucking her dry' (whatever Weave magic she had left in her, or somehow able to 'tap her' and access minute amounts of Weave energy). Kind of like combining the concept of a 'Weave Tap' with those Spellcruxes from College of Wizardry.
And what about the other 'long lost gods'? Is that the reason why Helm never found his love floating in the Astral? The Gods Lathander 'purged' were stunned and landed on Abeir?
Its a kinda cool, kinda gruesome way to finally tie-up some old loose ends, in horror-story fashion (I picture her becoming 'aware' for but a moment, and looking down at the characters and whispering, "Kill me... please... kill me..."
It would make for a good adventure to run in October.
And when Helm finds out, I'd hate to be the Morninglord. Aumanator would probably buy the popcorn for that one. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Aug 2017 : 02:50:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
BTW, here is an idea on how to make magic usable in Abeir without using meddling gods in that world (well, we can use gods in Abeir, but not as the source of arcane magic, as we need a way to explain why Abeirans were able to use magic before those gods appeared). I guess this can be useful to sleyvas as well.
There is this from Dragon 362:
"For eons, the use of magic in Faerűn was focused through a god of magic, most recently Mystra. Except for certain Netherese wizards of ancient days who learned the truth, most believed that no magic would be possible without such a deity."
So, there is. The netherese knew how to use raw magic. If those secrets somehow were rediscovered by at least one of the zulkirs, they can access raw magic even in Abeir (that we have to suppose, is the only form of arcane magic in that world). This also explains why Szass Tam was able to use magic even in the Wailing Years (as he was trained by Larloch).
I will use it to explain how the mages of Halruaa were somehow able to use magic even in Abeir. Since halruaans are of netherese heritage, is logical that they were aware of this knowledge. They just didn't use it because the Weave is more useful to cast spells. Or because we didn't saw them use it (?). But while on Abeir, they had to use it to survive.
I still want the Wailing Years to be difficult for the displaced Torilians in Abeir (because Torilians just owning Abeiran because reasons is boring). But after that, well, canon says the halruaans thrived. Maybe this will force the halruaans to threat sorcerers with more respect as well (in the first years, sorcerers will be the only ones using magic there), and will allow for the introduction of artificers and such, as in Abeir magic items are more widespread that magic practices. I see stuff like wizardry and sorcery become widespread only after the Spellplague, while the displaced Torilians will logically adopt the practices of the Abeirans in the meantime.
That can work to a degree. Especially since I have a Netherese enclave already involved (and one full of thieves, so they may have taken one of the Nether Scrolls).
That being said, I'm also going to want a "weave" getting developed in Abeir. By that, I mean access to some magic that's "advanced" and using some of the rules from Toril, and that its the actions of the gods of magic there that's organizing it. Maybe not right away.
Also, I don't WANT to have Torilians owning the world. I want them struggling to not be taken over by the forces in Abeir. However, I do see them having some upper hand in advancing in areas that were part of Toril that were less advanced, partly because of their magic, but also partly because of their mindset. This very much plays into their expansion in Katashaka (which I see as a bunch of hunter/gatherer societies with some groups that are more civilized... but they expand in the unorganized/tribal areas... and only in a small scale). I know I haven't showed any maps or anything, but my view of their holdings in Katashaka would be maybe 3% of the whole continent (if that much). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Aug 2017 : 13:58:45
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In 4e, the Plane of Shadow is the Shadowfell. They are not distinct places, are one and the same, as per the Manual of Planes. The only difference is the name.
Yeah, the FRCG says that "Shar created the Shadowfell", but that makes no sense with the fact that the Dawn War is also a FR stuff, and the Shadowfell predates the Dawn War. So, that stuff of Shar "creating the Shadowfell" is Sharran propaganda, to the level of "Asmodeus ended the Blood War" (and we know that is not true. Even 4e products denied that).
As for the Shadowfell proper, mind, the concept was created with Forgotten Realms in mind, and later adapted and used in core products and the other 4e settings (this is revealed in Dragon 370). So, really dunno why they changed stuff, but was stuff created for the Realms and exported to 4e core, not the reverse.
Ah, the Shadowfell concept has been around a long time. Birthright was by far the one to make the first real attempt at defining it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Aug 2017 : 13:51:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't know, I think part of the sheer beauty of it is its simplicity. Kelemvor didn't have to make any deals - he is the final judge of the dead in FR, and he could have judged her NOT 'faithless', merely false, and she would have been in his Realm regardless. Part of why I like it is because he was basically duped (1st by Asmodeus and then by Jergal) into becoming an 'outsider' where the other gods are concerned (which is how most death-gods are portrayed anyway). I think he's been angry at 'the Gods' every since the ToT - he didn't want any of this, and he certainly didn't want to be separated from Midnight (or have her sleeping with some 1000-year-old perv because 'its part of her job'). I think he's resentful, and jumped at any reason to 'judge them'.
I'm still trying to figure-out how Nerull survived his own death (since that plays into this through Kiaransalee, so we get to keep a smidge of that theory as well). Hmmmm... Nerull.. Nergal... Jergal... Something there, sort of.
I went looking for something (which I haven't found yet) in one of the few 4e sources I have (Open Grave - is that the only sourcebook linked to the Shadowfell, BTW?), and I found this concerning the Raven Queen:
quote:
"As the putative sovereign of the Shadowfell, the Raven Queen is fate’s instrument. All souls come to the Shadowfell, and sooner or later they pass through the Raven Queen’s Citadel in Letherna, except for those souled undead that evade the fate she decrees."
Aside from me now having to call the 'Ghetto of the Godless' Letherna (and say its connected to both Kel's realm and the Shadowfell, which makes perfect sense), We have that bit about TRQ being THE god of 'all things shadowy'. Thats got a major conflict with FR lore. I don't see how someone who is considered 'the sovereign of the Shadowfell' can coexist with Shar. Its almost as if she is supposed to be a Core version of Shar. The fact that we are currently trying to turn the TRQ into Midnight (Mystra) is some serious juxtapositioning.
What IF... Midnight was Shar's daughter... 
I mean, think about it. The name alone...
No, the part where I think it needs work is the "mechanics". The Raven Queen WAS someone else WAAAYYYYY back when. Then in theory since she's "new" again, somehow she died. That would make her a dead body back in the astral. Now, Kelemvor being a god of the dead.... he could maybe make a deal with Anubis (as guardian of dead gods) to gain the "essence"/"power" in order to imbue it to another divine entity who will in essence be SHARING his own portfolio. So, Kelemvor and Anubis give her this "kickstart" and she returns and she has the memories of say both Mystra and the Raven Queen.
Hell, we could also go with some kind of Persephone relationship where she has some ties to the house of magic still, and thus she has to spend part of her time with the god of Necromancy (Velsharoon)... but maybe as a goddess of "white necromancy" or maybe "blood magic" OR maybe she has to split her time as two aspects that are tied as Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen (in a kind of similar way as the Queen of the Seelie Court and Cegilune are somehow tied)... and this was the only way Anubis could help give Kelemvor what he wanted.
By the way, in this way, both the Raven Queen and Kiaransalee would share revenge as a portfolio. TRQ would get death and Kia would get undeath. Both would hate Orcus still. Note, this would put TRQ at odds with Bhaal. I would even possibly recommend building up Kia's following as a goddess of hags and Gloura and other dark fey and make her another "Queen of the Unseelie Court"... different from the Queen of Air and Darkness, but showing that the Court is made up of multiple rulers that are "dark fey". I hate to use the word "court" but hers could be the "Court of Vengeance and Death" |
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