| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| DrGerm |
Posted - 30 May 2017 : 15:08:20
As I understand it, the world was once Abeir-Toril, then there was the first sundering and Abeir and Toril split by Ao.
My question is, after the second sundering, is it now Abeir-Toril again? Or, are Abeir and Toril still two separate planets?
Thanks! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 13:07:26
Learned Scribe Misereor,
That is an interesting point for sure. I like hearing people's different opinions, especially those coming in at a later point in time with 4e or later to hear their views. Having started in the 80's with Forgotten Realms, I am so old school, I couldn't be turned away from the Realms, and so hearing new views on what got people into the Realms now is fascinating.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's too similar to Tymora and Beshaba's story, for my liking.
I realize that the good and evil counterparts arising from a common origin story is hardly unique to the deities of Luck, but still, I think they could have tried harder to make something unique.
All the splitting apart of deities was actually the one thing about 4th ed. I liked.
In my campaigns, I treat them as metaphors for aspects of divinity changing, as the world and the rules of the universe (and thus Portfolios) change.
For example, The original Io as one of the oldest gods was said to have been of all alignments. That would makes sense, if he existed before alignments existed as we know them today. When Good and Evil began emerge as separate concepts (as described in the history of the Blood War), why wouldn't a god that previously encompassed both split along those lines too?
|
| Misereor |
Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 12:45:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's too similar to Tymora and Beshaba's story, for my liking.
I realize that the good and evil counterparts arising from a common origin story is hardly unique to the deities of Luck, but still, I think they could have tried harder to make something unique.
All the splitting apart of deities was actually the one thing about 4th ed. I liked.
In my campaigns, I treat them as metaphors for aspects of divinity changing, as the world and the rules of the universe (and thus Portfolios) change.
For example, The original Io as one of the oldest gods was said to have been of all alignments. That would makes sense, if he existed before alignments existed as we know them today. When Good and Evil began emerge as separate concepts (as described in the history of the Blood War), why wouldn't a god that previously encompassed both split along those lines too?
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 00:34:41
Great Reader Lord Karsus,
Well, I suppose that is rewarding in a way. Of course, I just wish it would not have happened. Then again...I don't always seem to get what I want in life, at all times. haha
Out of curiosity, was that admission anything printed/online, or orally at a convention?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I feel that the 4e production of material was driven towards getting younger readers, who did not want to have the barriers to enter regarding lore, involved in the game and so anything they could potentially use in the future as a means to get that done would be a positive. This would only be a business decision, as we can see from the (as I feel) bizarre approach they took to a severe dismantling of the Realms at the onset of 4e.
Thoughts?
-They've said as much that that was the case.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 00:10:08
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I feel that the 4e production of material was driven towards getting younger readers, who did not want to have the barriers to enter regarding lore, involved in the game and so anything they could potentially use in the future as a means to get that done would be a positive. This would only be a business decision, as we can see from the (as I feel) bizarre approach they took to a severe dismantling of the Realms at the onset of 4e.
Thoughts?
-They've said as much that that was the case. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 20:26:42
Master Mage,
I can very appreciate your point. My thinking on this matter was presupposed upon the notion of the at times, seemingly, disjointed approach that WotC has taken on the matter of lore production. I feel that the 4e production of material was driven towards getting younger readers, who did not want to have the barriers to enter regarding lore, involved in the game and so anything they could potentially use in the future as a means to get that done would be a positive. This would only be a business decision, as we can see from the (as I feel) bizarre approach they took to a severe dismantling of the Realms at the onset of 4e.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Don't see why having two worlds gives more possibilities for future writing. I've been reading FR for almost 30 years and in that time they've published a couple hundred books. Meanwhile here on earth the same number of books are published set on this planet every week or so. Abeir-Toril is a whole planet with billions of characters to explore on the page. No need for a dimensional twin.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 19:11:18
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Don't see why having two worlds gives more possibilities for future writing. I've been reading FR for almost 30 years and in that time they've published a couple hundred books. Meanwhile here on earth the same number of books are published set on this planet every week or so. Abeir-Toril is a whole planet with billions of characters to explore on the page. No need for a dimensional twin.
Indeed. We've got entire continents on the world Abeir-Toril that don't even have as much as an official name. Even if the designers were as constrained as they claim by existing lore (a highly dubious claim, at best), they simply could have started on any one or more of those continents. There was no need for massive retcons and blowing up the setting. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 16:58:08
Don't see why having two worlds gives more possibilities for future writing. I've been reading FR for almost 30 years and in that time they've published a couple hundred books. Meanwhile here on earth the same number of books are published set on this planet every week or so. Abeir-Toril is a whole planet with billions of characters to explore on the page. No need for a dimensional twin.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 16:18:09
Master Mage,
I can certainly appreciate your point there. It seemed very disjointed. Although, from an author's perspective it is probably really cool because it allows them to come back to that at a future point in time to use that material for more Realms drama (not saying I like or dislike that, just identifying that).
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I never liked any of the Abeir / Toril were separate things. Abeir-Toril - one world. Done
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 13:48:17
I never liked any of the Abeir / Toril were separate things. Abeir-Toril - one world. Done |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 04:15:56
Lord Karsus,
Great point of course. For a place of learning such as Candlekeep, the frustration must have been profound!
I appreciate the insight.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, I'm weak on any lore pertaining to Abeir as a separate entity... The whole idea of Abeir as a separate world was a retcon, and it was very poorly managed, in my opinion. Almost every aspect of it creates a lot of issues -- like the moon thing discussed earlier, in this thread -- and either breaks existing lore, doesn't make any sense, or both.
The whole thing would have worked orders of magnitude better if it had been some sort of extraplanar invasion or something, instead of the Sundered worlds thing. Plus, that approach wouldn't have been a retcon, and the rest of the prior lore wouldn't have been broken.
-For months, in the 4e lead up, it wasn't even clear exactly what the hell "Abeir" was. The 4e book cleared it up more or less, but when you can't make sense of exactly what they're talking about in preview articles...that's bad.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 00:25:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, I'm weak on any lore pertaining to Abeir as a separate entity... The whole idea of Abeir as a separate world was a retcon, and it was very poorly managed, in my opinion. Almost every aspect of it creates a lot of issues -- like the moon thing discussed earlier, in this thread -- and either breaks existing lore, doesn't make any sense, or both.
The whole thing would have worked orders of magnitude better if it had been some sort of extraplanar invasion or something, instead of the Sundered worlds thing. Plus, that approach wouldn't have been a retcon, and the rest of the prior lore wouldn't have been broken.
-For months, in the 4e lead up, it wasn't even clear exactly what the hell "Abeir" was. The 4e book cleared it up more or less, but when you can't make sense of exactly what they're talking about in preview articles...that's bad. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 23:33:56
Master Rupert,
I completely understand. I've been such an avid and loyal fan of the Realms since the late 80's. This kind of alteration was just frustrating as can be. Just as was seen with continuity violations with Star Wars in episodes 1, 2, and 3, we see that kind of frustrating situation here.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was very frustrating to be actively following the setting at the time, too.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 19:51:27
It was very frustrating to be actively following the setting at the time, too. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 17:31:27
Master Rupert,
I certainly see your point there. The two sides being sundered is a bit overused: agreed.
It does seem like 4e does factor into so much of these conversations, with a profound impact (and for good reason of course). It has definitely caught me unaware on many occasions when just referencing lore and then finding out later by my own accord or someone else that certain things were retconned.
Frustrating for me.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's too similar to Tymora and Beshaba's story, for my liking.
I realize that the good and evil counterparts arising from a common origin story is hardly unique to the deities of Luck, but still, I think they could have tried harder to make something unique. (Though I'm inclined to think this was specifically against the 4E design guidelines)
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 17:28:36
Great Reader sleyvas,
Thank you for posting that information. I do believe I just referenced it without citing it!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, for those (like me) who didn't follow the reference of Erek-hus, the King of Terror, and Io/Asgorath
its under the dragonborn in the SCAG
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, page 112
Another legend asserts that Io created the dragons at the birth of the world, but dragonborn did not yet exist. Then, during the Dawn War, Io was killed by the primordial known as Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. With a rough-hewn axe of adamantine, the behemoth split Io from head to tail, cleaving the dragon-god into two equal halves, which rose up as new gods- Bahamut and Tiamat. Droplets of Io's blood, spattered across the world,
became the first dragonborn. For some who believe it, this origin story supports the view that dragonborn are clearly inferior to the dragons that were made by Io's loving hand, while others emphasize that the dragonborn arose from Io's own blood- just as two draconic deities
arose from the god's severed body. So are the dragonborn not, therefore, like the gods themselves?
This is apparently lore from the 4th edition "Player's Handbook Races - Dragonborn" as I did deeper. Its here that we find more lore on Erek-Hus
From PHR-Dragonborn
IO'S SUNDERED HEART When Erek-Hus, the King ofTerror, sundered Io's body, he cut the dragon-god's heart cleanly in half. The sundered halves of Io's heart give life to Bahamut and Tiamat-but ifthey were reunited, Io himself could live again. Of course, claiming the two halves of the heart probably means killing both Tiamat and Bahamut-or at least killing one deity and convincing the other to ingest or absorb that half of the heart.
What do you hope to gain by reuniting the heart? Are you a devotee of Io's Children who simply wishes to see your god restored? Or are you on the path of the Avatar of Io (see below), seeking to complete this quest in order to achieve your immortality?
This would be appropriate as a major quest that your entire party pursues. However, if it's part ofcompleting your epic destiny, it might be a minor quest-despite its far-reaching consequences.
THE KING OF TERROR After the primordial Erek-Hus slew Io, Bahamut and Tiamat, rising up from their dead progenitor's corpse, destroyed the King of Terror. Among those elemental beings and mortals who revere the primordials, however, there are some who seek to revive the King of Terror. Collecting fragments of his shattered body, they plan a ritual to reunite the fragments and restore him to life. You make it your mission to stop them.
Foiling the ritual might be a major quest you share with your party, but there might be steps along the way that are more personal for you and appropriate for minor quests. You might seek to disrupt local cults, take out key cult leaders, or find fragments ofthe primordial's body before the cultists do and destroy them.
Which SOME might read this theory, along with the increased interest of Bahamut and Tiamat just following the ToT and before the spellplague which hurled Abeir and Toril back together. Makes me also wonder about the "Heart of Ubtao" earthmote floating above Chult.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 17:25:55
It's too similar to Tymora and Beshaba's story, for my liking.
I realize that the good and evil counterparts arising from a common origin story is hardly unique to the deities of Luck, but still, I think they could have tried harder to make something unique. (Though I'm inclined to think this was specifically against the 4E design guidelines) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 13:21:13
So, for those (like me) who didn't follow the reference of Erek-hus, the King of Terror, and Io/Asgorath
its under the dragonborn in the SCAG
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, page 112
Another legend asserts that Io created the dragons at the birth of the world, but dragonborn did not yet exist. Then, during the Dawn War, Io was killed by the primordial known as Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. With a rough-hewn axe of adamantine, the behemoth split Io from head to tail, cleaving the dragon-god into two equal halves, which rose up as new gods- Bahamut and Tiamat. Droplets of Io's blood, spattered across the world,
became the first dragonborn. For some who believe it, this origin story supports the view that dragonborn are clearly inferior to the dragons that were made by Io's loving hand, while others emphasize that the dragonborn arose from Io's own blood- just as two draconic deities
arose from the god's severed body. So are the dragonborn not, therefore, like the gods themselves?
This is apparently lore from the 4th edition "Player's Handbook Races - Dragonborn" as I did deeper. Its here that we find more lore on Erek-Hus
From PHR-Dragonborn
IO'S SUNDERED HEART When Erek-Hus, the King ofTerror, sundered Io's body, he cut the dragon-god's heart cleanly in half. The sundered halves of Io's heart give life to Bahamut and Tiamat-but ifthey were reunited, Io himself could live again. Of course, claiming the two halves of the heart probably means killing both Tiamat and Bahamut-or at least killing one deity and convincing the other to ingest or absorb that half of the heart.
What do you hope to gain by reuniting the heart? Are you a devotee of Io's Children who simply wishes to see your god restored? Or are you on the path of the Avatar of Io (see below), seeking to complete this quest in order to achieve your immortality?
This would be appropriate as a major quest that your entire party pursues. However, if it's part ofcompleting your epic destiny, it might be a minor quest-despite its far-reaching consequences.
THE KING OF TERROR After the primordial Erek-Hus slew Io, Bahamut and Tiamat, rising up from their dead progenitor's corpse, destroyed the King of Terror. Among those elemental beings and mortals who revere the primordials, however, there are some who seek to revive the King of Terror. Collecting fragments of his shattered body, they plan a ritual to reunite the fragments and restore him to life. You make it your mission to stop them.
Foiling the ritual might be a major quest you share with your party, but there might be steps along the way that are more personal for you and appropriate for minor quests. You might seek to disrupt local cults, take out key cult leaders, or find fragments ofthe primordial's body before the cultists do and destroy them.
Which SOME might read this theory, along with the increased interest of Bahamut and Tiamat just following the ToT and before the spellplague which hurled Abeir and Toril back together. Makes me also wonder about the "Heart of Ubtao" earthmote floating above Chult.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 14:15:50
Senior Scribe LordofBones,
haha...that just conjured up a pretty amazing image in my mind.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I see the rest of the draconic pantheon must be hanging around at the spelljammer station dressed in hobo rags, musing wistfully on better days.
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 14:08:58
I see the rest of the draconic pantheon must be hanging around at the spelljammer station dressed in hobo rags, musing wistfully on better days. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 05:37:59
Master Rupert,
No judgement here from I! There is so much lore to know on the Realms, it is in my opinion the one true setting where you really can have legitimate academic amounts of knowledge, as you would see with real world disciplines. It is truly epic.
Fair enough on the Abeir issue then as well. I figured I would ask one of the master's here, as a Seeker is still seeking, right? 
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, I'm weak on any lore pertaining to Abeir as a separate entity... The whole idea of Abeir as a separate world was a retcon, and it was very poorly managed, in my opinion. Almost every aspect of it creates a lot of issues -- like the moon thing discussed earlier, in this thread -- and either breaks existing lore, doesn't make any sense, or both.
The whole thing would have worked orders of magnitude better if it had been some sort of extraplanar invasion or something, instead of the Sundered worlds thing. Plus, that approach wouldn't have been a retcon, and the rest of the prior lore wouldn't have been broken.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 05:03:40
Honestly, I'm weak on any lore pertaining to Abeir as a separate entity... The whole idea of Abeir as a separate world was a retcon, and it was very poorly managed, in my opinion. Almost every aspect of it creates a lot of issues -- like the moon thing discussed earlier, in this thread -- and either breaks existing lore, doesn't make any sense, or both.
The whole thing would have worked orders of magnitude better if it had been some sort of extraplanar invasion or something, instead of the Sundered worlds thing. Plus, that approach wouldn't have been a retcon, and the rest of the prior lore wouldn't have been broken. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 04:30:11
Master Rupert,
It was my understanding that there was one deity on Abeir: Asgorath. The account, supposedly, was that the primordial Erek-Hus cleaved Asgorath in half, resulting in Tiamat and Bahamut, who then rose and killed Erek-Hus. Though, when the Book of the World was discovered, it seemingly indicated that Asgorath was Tiamat and Bahamut, the renegade. The belief by the Candlekeep staff was that it was inconclusive regarding the counter-theories. Anyhow, that was just something that popped up into my head as I was reading the rest of the stuff.
As to Acolyte DrGerm's point: I agree heartily with Master Zeromaru X's reference of Dragon #427, and The Great Sage's acknowledgment of Abeir still being separate, in light of it being accessible.
By the way, I love this site! 
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, Jeff Grubb added the 'Abeir' part (the name of his own homebrew world) in front of Toril so it would come first. Thanks for taking the time to look that up.
So what does Faerūn mean? Was it 'the One Land'? Something like that, right?
Anyhow, the more I think of Abeir as a side-plane, rather than an actual world, the more I like it. Almost like a Ravenloft, except instead of 'Dark Powers' pulling the strings, its Overgods. Hmmmmm... maybe the 'Dark Powers' are a specific group of Overgods? maybe they are hiding certain puzzle-pieces from the others? So many ways to spin this!
Thus, 'Nerath' becomes the 'Domains of Dread' for the Abeir plane, just as 'Ravenloft' is for the Shadowfell, and 'Faerie' is for the Feywild. Could Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.
Three transitive planes, each with collections of 'pieces' gathered from other worlds. Maybe something can be done along an alignment axis? 'Good', Neutral, and 'Evil'? Not quite a good fit. 'Law & 'chaos' would be even worse. Anyway, I was thinking in terms of different groups of gods ('Dark Powers') all trying to recreate their own version of the 'First World' (because each of them would remember it from their own viewpoint, which could be very different than the others).
It's an interesting idea... Though I would suggest having it squirrelled away somewhere aside from the Outer Planes. Maybe a demiplane hidden somewhere in the Inner Planes, or maybe a very large pocket dimension.
The reason I shy away from hiding it in the Outer Planes is simply because that's where the gods are, and Abeir didn't have gods.
I've also come to the conclusion that there are either multiple Prime Material Planes, all overlapping each other, or there is only one Prime and it has a lot of layers -- because we've got many examples of places on the Prime where things work one way, but differently in another place -- exactly the same way different planes/layers in the Outer Planes each have their own rules.
So Abeir could be a separate Prime (or layer of the Prime) altogether, one that simply isn't much bigger than a single world and with fewer connections to other planes.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 18:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact, access to Abeir still exists after the Second Sundering. Ed wrote an article about it in Dragon 427, that some individuals created paths and that stuff.
By reading that article, it seems that Abeir now has a Weave, as Mystra want to prevent the usage of "worldfire", as it can destroy the Weave in both, Abeir and Toril.
Thank you for that reminder. In that article, Talaskos Murthrond, was mentioned as a Zulkir who is involved with worldfire. I had asked Ed what he was Zulkir of, and the hooded one came back that she believe it was Transmutation.... hmmm, might be interesting to use this guy in my United Tharchs of Toril.
From Dragon 427
Talaskos Murthrond is a handsome, purring voiced former Zulkir of Thay who long ago foresaw Szass Tams rise, faked his own demise, and departed his homeland for a skulking existence spent hiding in remote places of Faerūn amid magical mists.7
7. Although his habit of conjuring magical mists (sometimes including various gaseous or amorphous creatures that will fight at his command) has led some individuals to mistakenly believe Murthrond was
related to the mysterious Mistmaster of the northwestern High Forest (in the Sword Coast North), Elminster doesnt believe the two have ever met, let alone collaborated on anything or learned from each other. Murthrond has become a recluse who prefers to watch, withdraw, and wait patiently for the best moment to strikevery different from most authoritarian zulkirs. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 17:15:56
In fact, access to Abeir still exists after the Second Sundering. Ed wrote an article about it in Dragon 427, that some individuals created paths and that stuff.
By reading that article, it seems that Abeir now has a Weave, as Mystra want to prevent the usage of "worldfire", as it can destroy the Weave in both, Abeir and Toril. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 15:07:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Or maybe Abeir is truly unique. The 4E Realmslore asserts that Abeir is a one-of-a-kind special case, resulting from the actions of primordials ands deities and Ao. Not intended in the beginning, not intended for eternity, only a design flaw which needed to be corrected (by amputating an entire world, lol) before undesirable conditions actually worsened.
My point being that if the lore makes so many special efforts to assure us that Abeir is a categorically unique case, why continue to speculate on how Abeir fits into existing models?
Personally I think I'm going this path that you state. Abeir is just weird. It has the same sun and moon because somehow the two are "in a state of two phases" as well. What does that mean metaphysically? I'm not really sure. What did it mean during the time between the spellplague and the sundering? Well, we do know that while Abeir had no outer planar contact previously, it seems that somehow the abyss going into the elemental chaos gave Abeir access to the abyss, as there were demon lords there (seen from the last 2 Farideh books).
A good question to ask if we want to use Abeir is what access did it having during the spellplague fallout/before 2nd sundering... that now it no longer has. Personally, I think it would be fun if all of a sudden Abeir now is just another crystal sphere (a small one... with just Abeir, a moon, and a small sun). Maybe the whole splitting thing was Ao's way of "seeding" a new crystal sphere, and during the second sundering it essentially stole a portion of Toril's "magic energy".... enough to form its own crystal sphere shell finally. Maybe there were some deities that transferred to Abeir after the spellplague, and maybe some of those deities were able to get themselves "transplanted" into the surrounding territories with worshippers. Thus, maybe Abeir has a fledgling pantheon of gods there now (maybe not all of whom even know of one another), and slowly the sleeping primordials are awakening and in a century maybe the war between gods and weakened primordials will come to a head again (for now though, you could just use the two "sniffing" around one another).
In the meantime, maybe in the lands that transferred, there are points which touch both worlds, such that there are natural portals between the two (possibly all one-way, such that if someone transfers to Abeir on one, they must transfer back via finding another that returns to Toril). These portals, would of course be unstable, only open on a periodic basis, maybe requiring some key, etc...
In my view, this makes Abeir usable... which after all is the point in my book. It makes it different than Toril as well. The one big thing I'd do for Abeir is enforce a ruling that clerics don't exist, and instead use the DM's Guild product Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0
This forces the use of idols and the building of places of worship and the idea of fervent sacrifice. Thus, there's a "physical" relationship to the deity to kind of equate to the idea that the divine magic in the world is still "in its infancy".
I would however allow druids, and thus the worship of nature in its various aspects becomes an easier road than traditional priests/clerics. However, perhaps druids in Abeir have more stringent alignment requirements.... such as something like the old true neutral requirement and worrying about maintaining balance. Also, perhaps some druids worship deities, and others worship primordials, and perhaps some worship "pantheons" of both, etc... |
| Starshade |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 14:28:43
This could be solved by borrowing some hypothetical physics consepts from theoretical physics.
The moon could exist in both dimensions, if the Abeir-Toril planet too exist as Abeir and Toril in two dimentions. The Planes we call Abeir and Toril would be two independently experienced 3 dimentional spaces in a multidimensional space.
To explain it a different way: If you view it this way, the Abeir and Toril is still "one planet", and could even share the same Fewyild. Just being separated physically by its two 3d areas we use to perceive. Multidimentional beings would then, in theory, just walk straight from Abeir to Toril when they want (think Lovcraftian Dimentional Shamblers).
Or we could try ignoring what 4E did to FR...  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 13:59:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that ONE moon can be the moon for two different planets. 
Even if the planets had some weird, hitherto undiscerned 'binary' relationship (and if one of the two was 'invisible', the orbit of the other would look pretty bizarre from space), they still wouldn't be able to share a moon. One might have a moon that was visible from the other world, but it could not - EVER - orbit both worlds.
Better to just say it's another plane (or in another plane/demiplane), and something unique about Selūne itself makes it visible even in the other plane (so that would be more like a 'ghost image' of Selūne). Of course, if it IS the Plane of Mirrors, well then, thats just the moon's reflection, isn't it?
Just a concept below:
In the other world, the moon actually looks like the image that Leira projects over the moon in "Toril space".... and in Abeir, the image of the moon looks like there's people living on it, when they don't. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 03:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I would imagine Selūne is/was a primordial (despite three editions that says she was a deity), so that might 'bypass' the restrictions on 'no gods' (although primordials ARE 'gods', I think... its all so confusing...). I may have to swap my definitions 'deity' and 'god' yet again (but 'god' does make a better, non-specific catch-all term for 'greater than mortal'). Its fairly just to say that when the sources say 'god' they usually mean deity (a being capable of receiving energy through worship). Hmph... and having just said that, I think I may have hit-upon the mechanism of why that actually works.
My theory is that primordials is just a "race" of gods, much like there are humans, and elves, and whatnot. In 4e, primordials called Toril's gods "estelars". So, I believe that estelars are the race of gods that came from the Astral plane, while primordials are the gods that came from the Elemental planes.
As for Evermeet stuff... AFAIK, Evermeet's Sundering is related to the Abeir-Toril's Sundering and the Second Sundering (too much sunderings).
So, yeah, I guess Abeir is potentially the lost timeline you're talking about. Head-canoned, in fact. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 22:07:02
Or maybe Abeir is truly unique. The 4E Realmslore asserts that Abeir is a one-of-a-kind special case, resulting from the actions of primordials ands deities and Ao. Not intended in the beginning, not intended for eternity, only a design flaw which needed to be corrected (by amputating an entire world, lol) before undesirable conditions actually worsened.
My point being that if the lore makes so many special efforts to assure us that Abeir is a categorically unique case, why continue to speculate on how Abeir fits into existing models? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 21:35:16
Well, I would imagine Selūne is/was a primordial (despite three editions that says she was a deity), so that might 'bypass' the restrictions on 'no gods' (although primordials ARE 'gods', I think... its all so confusing...). I may have to swap my definitions 'deity' and 'god' yet again (but 'god' does make a better, non-specific catch-all term for 'greater than mortal'). Its fairly just to say that when the sources say 'god' they usually mean deity (a being capable of receiving energy through worship). Hmph... and having just said that, I think I may have hit-upon the mechanism of why that actually works.
Anyhow, not sure if I prefer spinning Abeir now (as a plane) as the Plane of Mirrors, or as my concept of the 'Mittlemarch' (a term borrowed from Michael Moorcock) - basically the 'world' that exists inside the Border Ethereal (and people who know how can concentrate and 'see into' one from the other, like 'ghosts'; the downside of that being that then they can also notice you as well).
The two timelines thing - now I am back to thinking about Toril's 'lost timeline' again. The 'would have been' had the Elves NOT (retroactively) interfered with the Sundering and created Evermeet. Entire peoples, actions, and cultures were simply 'lost' as if they had never existed. That means we would have had one timeline up to the point when the Elves cast their ritual, and then their would have been a divergent timeline that came into existence when evermeet did. So maybe 'Abeir' is the Plane of Possibilities? The 'might-have-beens'?
And maybe that's how Shar got her 'Dark Chronology' - she was able to steer Toril down a side-path (of 'prophesy') it should not have been on? (and now I am thinking what WotC did with Mystra is what Paizo did with Aroden... and both 'unforeseen disappearances of a god' happened "a century ago" to the setting's current timeline... interesting, no?) Basically, that was the same type of event - the timeline became diverted and now prophesy is 'broken'. Somehow she was able to use her 'shadow powers' to detect one of these side-paths. I believe Szass Tam cast some sort of ritual where he was able to do something similar (I still haven't read that series though... sorry RLB).
So maybe all of these 'side planes' (quantum realities 'out of sync' with our own) - (Border) Ethereal, Shadow(fell), Feywild, Plane of Mirrors, whatever (Planes of possibilities and of dreams?) - are all just 'echoes' of other timelines when they branches?
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