| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 00:11:41
One minor little detail of the process for creating a dracolich has long been of interest to me: per The Cult of the Dragon and other sources, the potion that turns a living dragon into a dracolich has only a 50% chance of success. Not only that, but there's a 10% chance that it will outright kill the dragon, without turning the dragon into a dracolich.
It occurs to me that this isn't something the Cult would publicize... And it further occurs to me that odds are that it's happened more than once that a dragon has simply keeled over dead.
And the death of a loved one has always been a great motivator for revenge... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 13:58:46
On this last bit, I must say that you should definitely include that in the description of the cult, because it makes it much more interesting. Its not just a revenge cult. Its a cult that specifically wants dragons to not be turned into undead, which has a bit of beauty to it. In fact, thinking on some of the stuff we have from Kara-Tur, it could be interesting if there is a whole swathe of Shou that have come over and heard what the Cult of the Dragon is doing and find the idea abhorrent. Maybe some of them even use "dragon claws" as weapons (think tiger claw weapons). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2017 : 03:48:21
I'm more thinking of individual members who are disaffected when they find the real goal of the Cult, not organized groups. People don't join the Cult en masse, individuals either find their way to the Cult or the Cult taps individuals as potential recruits.
That's my entire purpose with the Claws of Varanyx: find the one or two people who joined the Cult because of genuine reverence of dragons (in general, not specific ones), who then found out what the Cult wants to do with live dragons, and who -- again, out of their original reverence of dragons -- want to keep the Cult from turning such majestic creatures into undead monstrosities.
Hence, my Victoria's Secret example. If I join a particular model's fan club, it's because I'm a big fan of her wearing intriguing underwear. If I find out that the ultimate goal of the club is to remove the appeal of seeing her in tiny bits of lace, I'm not going to be enthusiastic about that.
The entire point of this operation is to give a mechanism to a NPC who turns against the Cult, for exactly the reasons I describe here. He's really, really into dragons. He naively joins the Cult to learn more about dragons, to be around them, and to serve them. And then he finds out about the whole dracolich thing, and he wants no part of that. The Claws give him a mechanism to work against the Cult. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 18 Jun 2017 : 18:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it further occurs to me that odds are that it's happened more than once that a dragon has simply keeled over dead.
And the death of a loved one has always been a great motivator for revenge...
Good point.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of members of the various itinerations of the Claws have been disaffected Cultists, ones who joined because they revered dragons, only to find out that the Cult has a very different idea of how to treat such majestic creatures.
Yes, but they had to learn how to deal with these problems very early on, mostly with Sammaster still around.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Think of it this way: if you're a huge fan of a Victoria's Secret model, and someone comes along and says that the way to show your appreciation for her is to make her a literal walking skeleton, you're likely to disagree with that person.
That's fairly predictable, however.
My guess of their SOP for dealing with pre-existing fan clubs is "they are likely to see you as rivals, so get rid of them before making the first contact".
Which nicely fits with CotD occasionally escalating a dragon's troubles behind the scene so that the prospective "client" would want more power.
To get rid of a potentially troublesome group of pre-existing sycophants, they can lure that dragon's weaker enemies toward the lair and let the loud competition become quiet casualties (or run away).
This may also have other advantages:
1. The dragon is reminded that no matter how one sets up the lair there are always credible threats around and maybe more protection is in order.
2. This leaves a convenient niche to step in. The dragon is used to have servants, as well as ego polishing on regular basis by a bunch of little creatures who scurry around and grovel - and now is deprived of them.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 23:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One minor little detail of the process for creating a dracolich has long been of interest to me: per The Cult of the Dragon and other sources, the potion that turns a living dragon into a dracolich has only a 50% chance of success. Not only that, but there's a 10% chance that it will outright kill the dragon, without turning the dragon into a dracolich.
It occurs to me that this isn't something the Cult would publicize... And it further occurs to me that odds are that it's happened more than once that a dragon has simply keeled over dead.
And the death of a loved one has always been a great motivator for revenge...
I think most dragons would be aware of that risk, especially the older ones. That's why they're all struggling with this decision and the cult has to work to convince almost every single one of them.
Why do they take the risk anyway? Same as with human mages, who face the same risk of just killing themselves instead of succeeding: fear of death
At the end of the day even dragons are mortal and many fear the inevitable just as much as lesser creatures such as humans do
Honestly, I don't think that's entirely relevant, in this case. Certainly it is a valid concern for other dragons who become dracoliches, but not in this particular case.
Varanyx didn't embrace undeath to avoid death -- he embraced it because he thought it would be the next step towards apotheosis, and the Cult was only too willing to agree with him.
And I don't think he would have known about the chance of death. That's hardly a selling point for the Cult -- "hey, there's a chance you may keel over dead, beyond any chance of coming back, but don't worry, it only happens once every double handful of attempts we make!"
And the point of the Claws isn't about whether or not Varanyx knew the odds. Savilar started the Claws because without Cult interference, Varanyx would have lived for centuries more, and because the Cult destroys the majesty and magnificence of living dragons. He felt as if the Cult had murdered his father in pursuit of a very bad cause.
A lot of members of the various itinerations of the Claws have been disaffected Cultists, ones who joined because they revered dragons, only to find out that the Cult has a very different idea of how to treat such majestic creatures.
Think of it this way: if you're a huge fan of a Victoria's Secret model, and someone comes along and says that the way to show your appreciation for her is to make her a literal walking skeleton, you're likely to disagree with that person. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 21:53:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One minor little detail of the process for creating a dracolich has long been of interest to me: per The Cult of the Dragon and other sources, the potion that turns a living dragon into a dracolich has only a 50% chance of success. Not only that, but there's a 10% chance that it will outright kill the dragon, without turning the dragon into a dracolich.
It occurs to me that this isn't something the Cult would publicize... And it further occurs to me that odds are that it's happened more than once that a dragon has simply keeled over dead.
And the death of a loved one has always been a great motivator for revenge...
I think most dragons would be aware of that risk, especially the older ones. That's why they're all struggling with this decision and the cult has to work to convince almost every single one of them.
Why do they take the risk anyway? Same as with human mages, who face the same risk of just killing themselves instead of succeeding: fear of death
At the end of the day even dragons are mortal and many fear the inevitable just as much as lesser creatures such as humans do |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 20:52:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Your idea is a nifty one, but I don't like it for this purpose -- I don't see Savilar happily making his dad's hand into a tool to carry around. It also fairly screams "dead dragon!" and thus seems like it would make a good trophy for the Cult -- even if it was nothing more than a simple staff +1.
The staff you describe, though, sounds perfect for a necromancer... I'm thinking of a slight tweak, towards that end: the chest contains the phylactery of a lich, but while it's in the chest, it's sealed away as if on another plane -- so the lich inside the phylactery is effectively trapped, there. Mayhaps the trapped phylactery provides some lich-like immunities/abilities to the staff wielder.
This staff would obviously be in the hands of a necromancer powerful enough to do that to a lich.
I may use the idea of the runes on the claws, though...
I'm actually thinking that the staff itself would predate Savilar; it would be something unique that he found and modified for his use. Among other things, this would make it less noticeable to the Cult.
Oooh, maybe it even belonged to the Cultist that failed to turn Varanyx into a dracolich! 
The idea of a trapped lich is a good one. Make it a lich sorcerer instead of a lich that has prepared spell slots. Then maybe it basically works to give the wielder extra memorized spells (which you can swap into existing spell slots). In 5e this would be a simple mechanic, but in 3.5 you'd have to detail it a bit. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 19:38:59
Your idea is a nifty one, but I don't like it for this purpose -- I don't see Savilar happily making his dad's hand into a tool to carry around. It also fairly screams "dead dragon!" and thus seems like it would make a good trophy for the Cult -- even if it was nothing more than a simple staff +1.
The staff you describe, though, sounds perfect for a necromancer... I'm thinking of a slight tweak, towards that end: the chest contains the phylactery of a lich, but while it's in the chest, it's sealed away as if on another plane -- so the lich inside the phylactery is effectively trapped, there. Mayhaps the trapped phylactery provides some lich-like immunities/abilities to the staff wielder.
This staff would obviously be in the hands of a necromancer powerful enough to do that to a lich.
I may use the idea of the runes on the claws, though...
I'm actually thinking that the staff itself would predate Savilar; it would be something unique that he found and modified for his use. Among other things, this would make it less noticeable to the Cult.
Oooh, maybe it even belonged to the Cultist that failed to turn Varanyx into a dracolich! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 19:25:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really, really like the staff idea, though.
I'm currently leaning towards having a staff that flares out and widens at the top, with like four dragon claws fixed to it, holding an irregularly-shaped lump of rune-covered, unknown metal. Instead of the claws being the standard metal fixture, these are actual claws that are bound to the staff with wire, and instead of being arranged in a distinct pattern, the tips of the claws overlap each other. So the whole thing has a kind of crude, unfinished look to it.
This works. What if the claws themselves also have runes carved into them. I'm picturing black claws, runes carved and filled in with gold and silver, and its holding within the claws the phylactery of Varanyx (a rune-scribed, small chest made from jet black, cast-off scales from Varanyx, encrusted with gems, and when you open the chest it holds a small vial of Varanyx's blood). Just to give you some imagery that might work. Also, this would be the staff topper, no? What would be the staff itself? I'm picturing the actual ulna and carpal bones that make up the "foreclaw"... such that the staff is actually everything from the "elbow" forward, which the claws/hand enclosing the phylactery. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 14:50:02
I really, really like the staff idea, though.
I'm currently leaning towards having a staff that flares out and widens at the top, with like four dragon claws fixed to it, holding an irregularly-shaped lump of rune-covered, unknown metal. Instead of the claws being the standard metal fixture, these are actual claws that are bound to the staff with wire, and instead of being arranged in a distinct pattern, the tips of the claws overlap each other. So the whole thing has a kind of crude, unfinished look to it. |
| RDS |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 12:01:25
If you want something a little different then how about a scythe made from Varanyx's largest claw. Keeps the 'claws of Varanyx' visual and allows the wielder of Savilar's will to let the Cult 'Reap what they have sown'.
A look on google showed me that it's not as original as I had hoped but it's not a staff, sword or dagger. And you can deal with the cultists up close and personal like. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 02:18:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ooo, and since we're talking about Varanyx regenerating his claws... I've got a very cool picture in mind where Varanyx actually made his phylactery from four of his claws, set in adamantine at their bases, and then pulled out his own eye and had it petrified magically and place between the tips of all 4 claws. He then regenerated all of these (because he was wearing a ring of regeneration). Savilar then mounts then whole conglomeration upon a femur of his father's body, making a staff.
It's a nifty visual, but the gig of making a dragon's eye into some sort of magical device has already been done, in the Realms.
I really like the idea of Savilar being in a staff, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a cool visual that hasn't been done before -- and that's tricky, considering the popularity of staves in the hands of wizards and spellcasters, in various media.
I may have to go with something other than a staff, just to have some degree of originality. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2017 : 16:57:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Reading thru this again, it makes sense to have Savilar still around in some format... It wasn't something I considered, originally -- Savilar existed to found the Claws, and then was no longer necessary. But if he is still around, he can reform the Claws and continue to drive them.
Of course, the question then becomes how is he still around?
Options:
1) He's still alive, and in his original body. Maybe half-dragons live a long time, maybe's he's part elf, maybe he's become a wizard, since they are known for living for a good long while.
This is perhaps the easiest solution.
2) He's still alive, but only because he found some way to switch bodies.
It makes re-infiltrating the Cult easier for him, but body-jumping really requires its own backstory, and is better as a hook for an NPC to be built around, thinks I. (Coincidentally, that is something I've been fiddling with, for another NPC)
3) He's undead.
This is a fairly easy solution, too. I'd likely make him something unique, though.
4) He's gone the way of Myrkul and some original Netherese: his mind is now in some inanimate object, and it's from within that object that he directs his efforts against the Cult.
At the moment, I'm kind of favoring this one, simply because it strikes me as the most interesting idea. Perhaps Savilar was a wizard, put a lot of power into a unique staff, and when he died anchored his consciousness to it. Over the years, the staff's wielder has been considered the leader of that itineration of the Claws -- no one has yet realized that this nifty staff is more than just a tool or symbol of office.
This does pose another question, though: does the staff dominate its wielder, or just push them in a particular direction, or does it depend on the wielder?
Thoughts?
I'd agree #4 is probably the most interesting. What's the inanimate object? Why his father's phylactery of course (which is mounted on the head of his favorite magical staff). Why would he form a bond with the object which led to his father's death?
What if as I proposed, something went disastrously wrong with Varanyx's transformation, and he ended up a "spirit locked away in the great beyond" (aka a vestige). So, then what if Savilar was able to contact his father by studying some strange arts of an ancient order of pact magic users, forbidden studies performed by some members of the Theurgist Adepts. What if he got ahold of his father's phylactery and realized it could function as a vestige phylactery.
So, Savilar becomes a powerful "theurgist adept"/"anima mage" or whatever you want to term it. Basically combining the powers of a "binder" and a sorcerer. He eventually gets the idea that he can free his father from where he's entrapped IF he gets another dragon of the same type as his father, pulls his fathers spirit into the vestige phylactery, and then performs a complex ritual using his own life force as a conduit to transfer his father into the other dragon. Something goes a bit wrong. Savilar is entrapped in the phylactery, his father is still a vestige, BUT Savilar can try and possess beings of draconic blood similar to a magic jar effect... by allowing his father, Varanyx, to escape his bonds and take over the draconic being. This allows Varanyx to possess half dragons and/or dragons (or other draconic beings), and maybe even Varanyx is still trying to get "worshippers" via this method by offering them power(though by worshippers it usually ends up being warlocks who act like 3e binders with the whole drawing the sigil of Varanyx, etc..).
Meanwhile, in addition to Varanyx possessing draconic beings, perhaps Savilar can attempt to dominate any individual holding his staff to lead the Claws of Savilar. In doing this, it actually puts both of your NPC's still to use.
Note, if you do go this method (and I know you won't Wooly since you don't use 5e), but for those that like this idea and would like to use it with 5e, check our my Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy on DMs Guild. I made rules for Occultist binders, and the one thing I didn't like about the 3.5 binders was the idea that you had to keep changing out which vestiges you bound as you leveled. I'd prefer that you could have a cult of binders that all bind a similar entity but the cultists own personal power determines how much they're able to draw from the vestige. Thus, all vestiges can be of use, and you just write up the story that you want to go along with said vestige and if you're getting to a high level of detail use of a particular vestige, also write up what powers he will offer at varying points.
It remains my preference that Varanyx is fully dead and gone; it is my opinion that Savilar's drive for revenge against the Cult would be strongest if there isn't a possibility of his father's recall.
Though Varanyx's intended phylactery could indeed be incorporated into the staff; I do like that idea.
Understood, and read my edit on the post above. I think you may like the visual, or maybe you can even improve upon it.
Oh, and while I understand you don't want the father back to life... consider the option of him as a vestige, even if you don't want to let him fully possess people. It may very well drive Savilar if he knows his father's soul is stuck in a place of darkness and suffering. The idea that he can give his father at least some relief by letting him "ride" his consciousness may actually fuel Savilar's anger at the cult. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2017 : 16:44:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Reading thru this again, it makes sense to have Savilar still around in some format... It wasn't something I considered, originally -- Savilar existed to found the Claws, and then was no longer necessary. But if he is still around, he can reform the Claws and continue to drive them.
Of course, the question then becomes how is he still around?
Options:
1) He's still alive, and in his original body. Maybe half-dragons live a long time, maybe's he's part elf, maybe he's become a wizard, since they are known for living for a good long while.
This is perhaps the easiest solution.
2) He's still alive, but only because he found some way to switch bodies.
It makes re-infiltrating the Cult easier for him, but body-jumping really requires its own backstory, and is better as a hook for an NPC to be built around, thinks I. (Coincidentally, that is something I've been fiddling with, for another NPC)
3) He's undead.
This is a fairly easy solution, too. I'd likely make him something unique, though.
4) He's gone the way of Myrkul and some original Netherese: his mind is now in some inanimate object, and it's from within that object that he directs his efforts against the Cult.
At the moment, I'm kind of favoring this one, simply because it strikes me as the most interesting idea. Perhaps Savilar was a wizard, put a lot of power into a unique staff, and when he died anchored his consciousness to it. Over the years, the staff's wielder has been considered the leader of that itineration of the Claws -- no one has yet realized that this nifty staff is more than just a tool or symbol of office.
This does pose another question, though: does the staff dominate its wielder, or just push them in a particular direction, or does it depend on the wielder?
Thoughts?
I'd agree #4 is probably the most interesting. What's the inanimate object? Why his father's phylactery of course (which is mounted on the head of his favorite magical staff). Why would he form a bond with the object which led to his father's death?
What if as I proposed, something went disastrously wrong with Varanyx's transformation, and he ended up a "spirit locked away in the great beyond" (aka a vestige). So, then what if Savilar was able to contact his father by studying some strange arts of an ancient order of pact magic users, forbidden studies performed by some members of the Theurgist Adepts. What if he got ahold of his father's phylactery and realized it could function as a vestige phylactery.
So, Savilar becomes a powerful "theurgist adept"/"anima mage" or whatever you want to term it. Basically combining the powers of a "binder" and a sorcerer. He eventually gets the idea that he can free his father from where he's entrapped IF he gets another dragon of the same type as his father, pulls his fathers spirit into the vestige phylactery, and then performs a complex ritual using his own life force as a conduit to transfer his father into the other dragon. Something goes a bit wrong. Savilar is entrapped in the phylactery, his father is still a vestige, BUT Savilar can try and possess beings of draconic blood similar to a magic jar effect... by allowing his father, Varanyx, to escape his bonds and take over the draconic being. This allows Varanyx to possess half dragons and/or dragons (or other draconic beings), and maybe even Varanyx is still trying to get "worshippers" via this method by offering them power(though by worshippers it usually ends up being warlocks who act like 3e binders with the whole drawing the sigil of Varanyx, etc..).
Meanwhile, in addition to Varanyx possessing draconic beings, perhaps Savilar can attempt to dominate any individual holding his staff to lead the Claws of Savilar. In doing this, it actually puts both of your NPC's still to use.
Note, if you do go this method (and I know you won't Wooly since you don't use 5e), but for those that like this idea and would like to use it with 5e, check our my Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy on DMs Guild. I made rules for Occultist binders, and the one thing I didn't like about the 3.5 binders was the idea that you had to keep changing out which vestiges you bound as you leveled. I'd prefer that you could have a cult of binders that all bind a similar entity but the cultists own personal power determines how much they're able to draw from the vestige. Thus, all vestiges can be of use, and you just write up the story that you want to go along with said vestige and if you're getting to a high level of detail use of a particular vestige, also write up what powers he will offer at varying points.
It remains my preference that Varanyx is fully dead and gone; it is my opinion that Savilar's drive for revenge against the Cult would be strongest if there isn't a possibility of his father's recall.
Though Varanyx's intended phylactery could indeed be incorporated into the staff; I do like that idea. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2017 : 16:40:41
quote:
Originally posted by RDS
My thoughts on what happens with the 10% that die is their spirits go to Gargauth for plans he may have set in motion (I haven't got any ideas yet on what that might be). I consider this after reading Sleyvas' idea that 1% go elsewhere. Yet why make it just 1%. Dead is dead, the spirit is gone on to Gargauth and the draconic deities lose out.
For an object of power I was thinking a bit literally into the "Claws of Varanyx". Perhaps Savilar took his fathers claws and fashioned them into a physical tool(s). Each of the claws could have been turned into daggers or staff toppings for the groups members. He might even be able to jump from one item to the other at will now.
Or Salivar could have had his own claws removed just before death and fashioned into a receptacle for his might. With regenerative magic this wouldn't be very debilitating. You could still use the original phylactery but I can't see Savilar keeping something he would likely despise yet I could see it being an easier means of mind holding having been prepared for his sire.
I like the idea of Varanyx removing his own claw, regenerating it back, and then using the removed claw to make his phylactery. It would very much fit with the type of magic involved. I also like the idea of Savilar taking the claws, teeth, spines, horns, scales, and maybe even bones of his father and using them to make dragon-related magic items. Spears, axes, staves, wands, daggers, shields, etc... might all come from this stuff.
Ooo, and since we're talking about Varanyx regenerating his claws... I've got a very cool picture in mind where Varanyx actually made his phylactery from four of his claws, set in adamantine at their bases, and then pulled out his own eye and had it petrified magically and place between the tips of all 4 claws. He then regenerated all of these (because he was wearing a ring of regeneration). Savilar then mounts then whole conglomeration upon a femur of his father's body, making a staff. |
| RDS |
Posted - 12 Jun 2017 : 15:46:10
My thoughts on what happens with the 10% that die is their spirits go to Gargauth for plans he may have set in motion (I haven't got any ideas yet on what that might be). I consider this after reading Sleyvas' idea that 1% go elsewhere. Yet why make it just 1%. Dead is dead, the spirit is gone on to Gargauth and the draconic deities lose out.
For an object of power I was thinking a bit literally into the "Claws of Varanyx". Perhaps Savilar took his fathers claws and fashioned them into a physical tool(s). Each of the claws could have been turned into daggers or staff toppings for the groups members. He might even be able to jump from one item to the other at will now.
Or Salivar could have had his own claws removed just before death and fashioned into a receptacle for his might. With regenerative magic this wouldn't be very debilitating. You could still use the original phylactery but I can't see Savilar keeping something he would likely despise yet I could see it being an easier means of mind holding having been prepared for his sire. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2017 : 14:19:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Reading thru this again, it makes sense to have Savilar still around in some format... It wasn't something I considered, originally -- Savilar existed to found the Claws, and then was no longer necessary. But if he is still around, he can reform the Claws and continue to drive them.
Of course, the question then becomes how is he still around?
Options:
1) He's still alive, and in his original body. Maybe half-dragons live a long time, maybe's he's part elf, maybe he's become a wizard, since they are known for living for a good long while.
This is perhaps the easiest solution.
2) He's still alive, but only because he found some way to switch bodies.
It makes re-infiltrating the Cult easier for him, but body-jumping really requires its own backstory, and is better as a hook for an NPC to be built around, thinks I. (Coincidentally, that is something I've been fiddling with, for another NPC)
3) He's undead.
This is a fairly easy solution, too. I'd likely make him something unique, though.
4) He's gone the way of Myrkul and some original Netherese: his mind is now in some inanimate object, and it's from within that object that he directs his efforts against the Cult.
At the moment, I'm kind of favoring this one, simply because it strikes me as the most interesting idea. Perhaps Savilar was a wizard, put a lot of power into a unique staff, and when he died anchored his consciousness to it. Over the years, the staff's wielder has been considered the leader of that itineration of the Claws -- no one has yet realized that this nifty staff is more than just a tool or symbol of office.
This does pose another question, though: does the staff dominate its wielder, or just push them in a particular direction, or does it depend on the wielder?
Thoughts?
I'd agree #4 is probably the most interesting. What's the inanimate object? Why his father's phylactery of course (which is mounted on the head of his favorite magical staff). Why would he form a bond with the object which led to his father's death?
What if as I proposed, something went disastrously wrong with Varanyx's transformation, and he ended up a "spirit locked away in the great beyond" (aka a vestige). So, then what if Savilar was able to contact his father by studying some strange arts of an ancient order of pact magic users, forbidden studies performed by some members of the Theurgist Adepts. What if he got ahold of his father's phylactery and realized it could function as a vestige phylactery.
So, Savilar becomes a powerful "theurgist adept"/"anima mage" or whatever you want to term it. Basically combining the powers of a "binder" and a sorcerer. He eventually gets the idea that he can free his father from where he's entrapped IF he gets another dragon of the same type as his father, pulls his fathers spirit into the vestige phylactery, and then performs a complex ritual using his own life force as a conduit to transfer his father into the other dragon. Something goes a bit wrong. Savilar is entrapped in the phylactery, his father is still a vestige, BUT Savilar can try and possess beings of draconic blood similar to a magic jar effect... by allowing his father, Varanyx, to escape his bonds and take over the draconic being. This allows Varanyx to possess half dragons and/or dragons (or other draconic beings), and maybe even Varanyx is still trying to get "worshippers" via this method by offering them power(though by worshippers it usually ends up being warlocks who act like 3e binders with the whole drawing the sigil of Varanyx, etc..).
Meanwhile, in addition to Varanyx possessing draconic beings, perhaps Savilar can attempt to dominate any individual holding his staff to lead the Claws of Savilar. In doing this, it actually puts both of your NPC's still to use.
Note, if you do go this method (and I know you won't Wooly since you don't use 5e), but for those that like this idea and would like to use it with 5e, check our my Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy on DMs Guild. I made rules for Occultist binders, and the one thing I didn't like about the 3.5 binders was the idea that you had to keep changing out which vestiges you bound as you leveled. I'd prefer that you could have a cult of binders that all bind a similar entity but the cultists own personal power determines how much they're able to draw from the vestige. Thus, all vestiges can be of use, and you just write up the story that you want to go along with said vestige and if you're getting to a high level of detail use of a particular vestige, also write up what powers he will offer at varying points. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2017 : 04:39:35
Reading thru this again, it makes sense to have Savilar still around in some format... It wasn't something I considered, originally -- Savilar existed to found the Claws, and then was no longer necessary. But if he is still around, he can reform the Claws and continue to drive them.
Of course, the question then becomes how is he still around?
Options:
1) He's still alive, and in his original body. Maybe half-dragons live a long time, maybe's he's part elf, maybe he's become a wizard, since they are known for living for a good long while.
This is perhaps the easiest solution.
2) He's still alive, but only because he found some way to switch bodies.
It makes re-infiltrating the Cult easier for him, but body-jumping really requires its own backstory, and is better as a hook for an NPC to be built around, thinks I. (Coincidentally, that is something I've been fiddling with, for another NPC)
3) He's undead.
This is a fairly easy solution, too. I'd likely make him something unique, though.
4) He's gone the way of Myrkul and some original Netherese: his mind is now in some inanimate object, and it's from within that object that he directs his efforts against the Cult.
At the moment, I'm kind of favoring this one, simply because it strikes me as the most interesting idea. Perhaps Savilar was a wizard, put a lot of power into a unique staff, and when he died anchored his consciousness to it. Over the years, the staff's wielder has been considered the leader of that itineration of the Claws -- no one has yet realized that this nifty staff is more than just a tool or symbol of office.
This does pose another question, though: does the staff dominate its wielder, or just push them in a particular direction, or does it depend on the wielder?
Thoughts? |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 04:49:07
I miss the days when Tiamat and Bahamut weren't the only members of the draconic pantheon. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2017 : 16:43:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Liking your core concept for the Claws of Varanyx, Wooly.
Just some ideas to throw out and see if they help you.
Savilar. He's a half dragon... what's his other half? Is he still alive, and if he is, is it because his other half is a long lived race like elf OR because he himself has become undead OR he's used some other means to extend his life.
Human or half-elf, most likely. His main function is to have a personal stake in Varanyx's fate, and a desire to do something about Varanyx's untimely demise. I didn't give him much thought beyond that.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What happened to Savilar's spirit? I mean the potion that's used to turn them into a dracolich also binds them to a phylactery. What if his spirit is bound there, and it can take over/possess another body....but it has to be the body of his kin.
Here's the numbers from page 103 of Cult of the Dragon:
quote:
01-10 No effect.
11-40 Potion does not work. The dragon suffers 2d12 points of damage and is helpless with convulsions for 1d2 rounds.
41-50 Potion does not work. The dragon dies. A full wish is required to restore the dragon to life. A wish to transform the dragon into a dracolich results in another roll on this table.
51-00 Potion works.
So that 41-50 slot is a permanent death, not a partial success. If it had been a partial success, the Cult could have taken the necessary steps to complete the transition, and then there would be no need for the Claws to form.
Or that 41-50 is some other form of death sometimes and the cult of the dragon just doesn't know it (say 9% true death and 1% is a different sort of "death"). As the spirit is getting transferred to a phylactery SOMETHING happens to it. Maybe it binds to the earth where it died (similar to the everlasting wyrm), and periodically forms a new body. Maybe there's some metaphysical place where these transitioning dracolich souls get sucked to, kind of like vestiges. Maybe as a result, this black dragon can have warlocks which pact to him. Remember the 3e dragon magic supplement and its dragonfire adepts that were a conversion somewhat of warlocks... it would fit this type of scenario.
Maybe the dragon relays that its suffering wherever its soul is entrapped, and this is why the claws hate the cultists. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2017 : 16:29:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think if the dragon (Varanyx) was still around and in the phylactory it would mean the ritual didn't fail, which it did. I like the idea that he is 'trapped' somewhere (maybe the CotD don't even realize what happens to the 'failures'), but to put him in the phylactory is too close to a success, IMO.
I like this, and I might even use it (which is actually saying A LOT, since I never liked the CotD, or anything else draconic, for that matter). I might tie this into the Elsir Vale (Scales of War & Red Hand of Doom), because of the number of half-dragns in the area. My thouhts are that the claws may like to recruit other half-dragons as cell or even regional leaders.
I don't know why Savilar would have to be 'half' of a long-lived race, since dragons are already long-lived. Is there lore to that effect? I'd like him to still be around - he could possibly even (accidentally?) obtain his own demipower (Exarch) status by 5e (some sort of 'half-dragon avenger' type). And then combining this with what I just said above, his 'lieutenants' (of his growing organization) could all be other half-dragons, and possibly a couple of those also lost family members to the cult.
And then you could have the Tiamat's Cult infiltrating it, and some double-agents on both sides (basically, the two are using each other, and both thinks they are the ones 'really in charge').
And maybe a weird half-dragon dracolich triple agent...
Good stuff. 
Good point on the part about half-dragons and how long they would live. Do we actually have any kind of ruling on that? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 May 2017 : 15:35:59
Well, if Savilar had 'ascended' (possible during the 'lost century' between editions) as I theorized, then he can both be around, and not be around.
In fact, I think he might even be a little annoyed at his 'accidental ascension' (the size of his group, plus the adulation of his followers, hit 'critical mass' and caused the apotheosis). He may even be growing more popular than Hoar in The North as a 'God of Revenge', so that the Eastern and Western heartlands are split in this regard.
That would place Savilar in a very unenvious position - Hoar is friends with Marduck (Bahamut), and Savilar has been working with Tiamat's followers, so even though Savilar is 'doing good' (fighting the Cult of the Dragon), he would definitely be at constant odds with 'the good guys'.
And whether he's around or not, the reason why I find this so interesting/useful is because we have a group thats obviously 'not good' doing some very good work, which opens up all sorts of juicy possibilities for 'strange bedfellows'. One of my favorite campaigns I ever ran featured the party working for Thay without knowing it, and even when they caught on they continued to do so, because none of what they were doing was actually 'evil'. They were just helping the Thayans with their trade routes (which makes Thay stronger, but trade isn't an evil thing unto itself). Without knowing it, they had come up against the Harpers several times (no-one major or powerful). I love stories lines that are 'shades of grey', rather than just B&W.
EDIT:
And I just realized something for the first time ('all things draconic' probably being my weakest branch of D&D lore knowledge) - the CotD would be enemies with both Bahamut and Tiamat's followers; no wonder they've 'tanked' by 5e (although its easy enough to say they're rebuilding in secret). That's rough, especially with the massive influx of dragonborn post-3e.
I could even possibly see a 'Dragonborn Wars' scenario, with the followers of the two major draconic powers going at each other, and then the two having occasionally work together to get rid of a 'nest' of half-dragons.
How do Dragonborn and half-dragons get along? It might be better (in 5e) to give one group to Bahamut, and the other to Tiamat - its sort of that way now anyway, isn't it? Most of the Dragonborn follow Bahamut, and there's plenty of evidence of most half-dragons favoring Tiamat. The only problem I see there is that half-dragons have sub-types, and Dragonborn do not (AFAIK).
Hmmmmm... I'm trying to turn FR into Krynn, and I don't even like DL.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 May 2017 : 03:06:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think if the dragon (Varanyx) was still around and in the phylactory it would mean the ritual didn't fail, which it did. I like the idea that he is 'trapped' somewhere (maybe the CotD don't even realize what happens to the 'failures'), but to put him in the phylactory is too close to a success, IMO.
I like this, and I might even use it (which is actually saying A LOT, since I never liked the CotD, or anything else draconic, for that matter). I might tie this into the Elsir Vale (Scales of War & Red Hand of Doom), because of the number of half-dragns in the area. My thouhts are that the claws may like to recruit other half-dragons as cell or even regional leaders.
I don't know why Savilar would have to be 'half' of a long-lived race, since dragons are already long-lived. Is there lore to that effect? I'd like him to still be around - he could possibly even (accidentally?) obtain his own demipower (Exarch) status by 5e (some sort of 'half-dragon avenger' type). And then combining this with what I just said above, his 'lieutenants' (of his growing organization) could all be other half-dragons, and possibly a couple of those also lost family members to the cult.
And then you could have the Tiamat's Cult infiltrating it, and some double-agents on both sides (basically, the two are using each other, and both thinks they are the ones 'really in charge').
And maybe a weird half-dragon dracolich triple agent...
Good stuff.
I, personally, don't see Savilar still being around... Though that's really more of a personal preference, and I can't offer any good reasons why he can't still be around. I honestly didn't consider it -- I created him solely to have someone to create the Claws.
I believe there was a ruling in 3E where it was officially stated that, per the rules as written, a half-dragon could become a dracolich. I think this was more of an oversight, though, than a deliberate thing -- the 3E dracolich template said it could be applied to a critter of the dragon subtype, and half-dragons had that subtype.
I personally didn't like that ruling -- it may have been kosher per the RAW, but it certainly went against (what I perceive as) Ed's intent with creating the dracolich.
But a half-dragon lich, with some unique abilities that puts him somewhere between a "regular" lich and a dracolich? That I can get behind.
I'm just really glad that people are digging this idea.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 May 2017 : 02:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Liking your core concept for the Claws of Varanyx, Wooly.
Just some ideas to throw out and see if they help you.
Savilar. He's a half dragon... what's his other half? Is he still alive, and if he is, is it because his other half is a long lived race like elf OR because he himself has become undead OR he's used some other means to extend his life.
Human or half-elf, most likely. His main function is to have a personal stake in Varanyx's fate, and a desire to do something about Varanyx's untimely demise. I didn't give him much thought beyond that.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What happened to Savilar's spirit? I mean the potion that's used to turn them into a dracolich also binds them to a phylactery. What if his spirit is bound there, and it can take over/possess another body....but it has to be the body of his kin.
Here's the numbers from page 103 of Cult of the Dragon:
quote:
01-10 No effect.
11-40 Potion does not work. The dragon suffers 2d12 points of damage and is helpless with convulsions for 1d2 rounds.
41-50 Potion does not work. The dragon dies. A full wish is required to restore the dragon to life. A wish to transform the dragon into a dracolich results in another roll on this table.
51-00 Potion works.
So that 41-50 slot is a permanent death, not a partial success. If it had been a partial success, the Cult could have taken the necessary steps to complete the transition, and then there would be no need for the Claws to form. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 23:03:00
I think if the dragon (Varanyx) was still around and in the phylactory it would mean the ritual didn't fail, which it did. I like the idea that he is 'trapped' somewhere (maybe the CotD don't even realize what happens to the 'failures'), but to put him in the phylactory is too close to a success, IMO.
I like this, and I might even use it (which is actually saying A LOT, since I never liked the CotD, or anything else draconic, for that matter). I might tie this into the Elsir Vale (Scales of War & Red Hand of Doom), because of the number of half-dragns in the area. My thouhts are that the claws may like to recruit other half-dragons as cell or even regional leaders.
I don't know why Savilar would have to be 'half' of a long-lived race, since dragons are already long-lived. Is there lore to that effect? I'd like him to still be around - he could possibly even (accidentally?) obtain his own demipower (Exarch) status by 5e (some sort of 'half-dragon avenger' type). And then combining this with what I just said above, his 'lieutenants' (of his growing organization) could all be other half-dragons, and possibly a couple of those also lost family members to the cult.
And then you could have the Tiamat's Cult infiltrating it, and some double-agents on both sides (basically, the two are using each other, and both thinks they are the ones 'really in charge').
And maybe a weird half-dragon dracolich triple agent...
Good stuff. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 19:24:10
Liking your core concept for the Claws of Varanyx, Wooly.
Just some ideas to throw out and see if they help you.
Savilar. He's a half dragon... what's his other half? Is he still alive, and if he is, is it because his other half is a long lived race like elf OR because he himself has become undead OR he's used some other means to extend his life.
What happened to Savilar's spirit? I mean the potion that's used to turn them into a dracolich also binds them to a phylactery. What if his spirit is bound there, and it can take over/possess another body....but it has to be the body of his kin. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 09:43:35
I know, but just for the cult method and the tome of the dracolich, over the years what non essential pieces might have crept into the ritual that augment or undermine the whole process for nefarious purposes that were not in the best interest of the cult. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 09:39:10
There are canon references to dracolichs the pre-date the formation of the Cult. That would imply that there are various methods of creating them, and that they have been created for differing reasons over the years.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 09:15:39
Youve actually got me thinking about the ritual itself now and how there might be variants between the different cults (it being very non uniform in the 1300s) and how other organisations might have influenced the cult and madenthe ritual worse or added other features.
For instance sammaster seeks for dead dragons to rule the world entire in accordance with his mad prophecy. Then he adds in a feature to the ritual which allows the dracoliches to be controlled. That doesnt sound in accordance with his lunacy.
It does however sound exactly like something a priest of Bane would want such as his sidekick (whose name i cant remember).
Now not every cult has access to a copy of the tomes that detail the dracolich creation process. But the moonsea and sembia cults are very prolific, having a number of uber powerful dracoliches at their disposal. The moonsea area is also home to the zhentarim (church of bane link) and manshoon was known to have secret control of a number of cells.
So what if the moonsea dracoliches use tomes secretly penned by manshoon that ultimately allow him to override control of the dracoliches or perhaps even allow him to remove cult control of them
Then we have the church of tiamat who it seems would not want undead dragons so perhaps their influenced cults have a much lower success rate of dracolichea but have a much higher rate of mutating dragons into the new spawn monsters.
Then there is the secret link between algashon and the cult of gargauth (i made a thread on it a while back and THO alluded to some conclusions being valid). So what would the great deceiver's worshipper put into the ritual. Perhaps the control over dracoliches naturally weakens over time so that ultimately all the dracoliches will ultimately break free. Algashon made a bargain with gargauth to allow him to control the dracoliches to help sammasters dream come true and gargauth twisted the deal so that the dracoliches would ultimately be free willed after a century or two and so sammasters dream really would come true as the cult would have no control over its greatest creations.
Just some thoughts. I love intrigue within intrigue. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 04:24:56
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I also dig this. How far back on the timeline are you thinking Varanyx made his fateful decision?
I think the Year of the Broken Pillar (1059DR) sounds good. It's after Sammy fell the first time, and it's after Algashon. The Cult is well-established by then, and still growing despite the fact that the original leaders are no longer in the picture. It seems reasonable to me that the subversion of a beast cult could happen in that era.
And 1059 is far enough back that it gives the Claws time to rise and fall multiple times before the ToT -- so a cell of the Claws can be used by DMs in any era from 1E to 5E.
For the Claws, that Broken Pillar would represent Varanyx -- that which supported their beliefs was sundered and fallen.
I'm glad you asked this question, xaeyruudh. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2017 : 04:16:23
Tiamat's interest in the Cult dates back to 2E -- it's in the Cult of the Dragon book. Interestingly, Tiamat's church is listed as a rival, because Tiamat's goals are not the goals of Sammaster, and Cult leadership is rather resistant to being replaced. A lot of the rank and file of the Cult, though, are more receptive to a draconic deity.
And as a draconic deity, Tiamat loves to idea of getting hold of dragon-worshipping humans.
If the Church of Tiamat was to learn of the Claws of Varanyx, the Church members would likely steer the Claws towards opposition of those Cultists that would stand in the Church's way.
And as the Claws have more of a reverence for dragons than for dracoliches, the two groups are natural allies. If it wasn't for the fact that the Church of Tiamat had only started infiltrating the Cult after the ToT, then they'd be the perfect angle for the periodic resurrection of the Claws. |
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