| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vharcaen |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 11:57:20
Hello everyone.
Im' doing some research into the history of the realms and I'm having a hard time answering some questions involving deities.
1) -7800 DR saw the Great Arrival, the djinni lord Calim arrives in Faerūn with his human and halfling slaves. I'm trying to pinpoint which deities these slaves (both human and halfling) would be worshipping.
2) I've found several references of phanteons arriving in the Realms, but can anyone tell me when the current human pantheon arrived? Or were they always there?
--- Would appreciate the input, thanks. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 13:26:02
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs).
The main source we have on obyriths is 4e's Demonomicon, which was a great book, but not FR specific - though is there any FR-specific obyrith info?
Anyway, the main gist is that "demon lords" come from two different backgrounds. The majority are primordials that came into contact with a shard of complete evil - which may actually be a condensation of dead obyriths or some such. There are also obyriths that are demon lords, such as Obox-Ob and Pazuzu. The impression I get is that no one except each other knows that they're obyriths, and they disguise themselves as demon lords to further their goals.
That's the only primordial-obyrith connection I'm aware of anyway, and it's only a indirect connection (through both types being able to end up as "demon lords").
Good to know. Guess I'll need to hunt that book down. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 04:33:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs).
The main source we have on obyriths is 4e's Demonomicon, which was a great book, but not FR specific - though is there any FR-specific obyrith info?
Anyway, the main gist is that "demon lords" come from two different backgrounds. The majority are primordials that came into contact with a shard of complete evil - which may actually be a condensation of dead obyriths or some such. There are also obyriths that are demon lords, such as Obox-Ob and Pazuzu. The impression I get is that no one except each other knows that they're obyriths, and they disguise themselves as demon lords to further their goals.
That's the only primordial-obyrith connection I'm aware of anyway, and it's only a indirect connection (through both types being able to end up as "demon lords"). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 04:21:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Or he was the first attempt for gorgon that didn't worked very well .-))
As for Limbo I think that it represent it's chaotic planar nature well but it is not the same as elemental chaos - not everthing have to have ties to everything...
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs).
AFAIK, it does actually say the two are the same, or even makes any connection between them, other than they are both from a time before time' kind of thing (pre-current universe). Maybe Obyriths are the other universe's version of 'primordials', or maybe the Obyriths came into this universe (after creating it?) and altered some shadevari into primordials? Or the primordials could even be 'children' of Obyriths (although I feel thinking of them as 'equals' works better). So many ways to spin it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 01:36:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Bazim-Gorag being two names (and having noted he had two heads)... I like that idea, but more so that Bazim was the batrachi lord and Gorag is an entity from possibly the Far Realm (or some similar closed off prison plane) that it aligned itself too. Given that he's the lord of the Pandemonium Stone, and said stone seems to have randomness tied to it, it has a little bit of a Far Realm flavor to it. Along this idea, Dungeon #197 presents something I just found... Shoth-Gorag.... a being that was from the far realm, has been destroyed, but left behind a stone heart. Its trying to "reflesh" itself by gathering sacrifices. So, perhaps this "Gorag" being has tied itself to several individuals? Just a thought.
BTW, Limbo if anything feels like an outer plane that is essentially "the elemental chaos". Granted, I know that doesn't make sense (i.e. outer plane that is a soup of all the inner planes). However, if we think of Limbo as the elemental chaos given ties to thought. Perhaps its a place that the gods started to usurp some of the essence of the elemental chaos in order to form the outer planes. Essentially, it becomes something equivalent to Ginunngagap of Norse legend). Hmmm, and I just got this picture of this particular place being the birthing ward for primordials that was to give birth to beings of pure thought.
Maybe Limbo was once part of the Elemental Chaos, and became separated when powerful entities started shaping it to their will. Once that happened, the other Outer Planes were spawned off of Limbo. Likely, it happened as divine realms formed demiplanes, but then the demiplanes of like-minded powers started merging together, forming the planes as we know them.
Yeah, I was thinking similar, and that's how I got on the idea of primordials "birthing" beings of "thought"... aka gods... here. This kind of became the connecting ground between the planes of thought and the elemental chaos whenever this place started to be able to be shaped by thought/strength of will more than raw elemental power. From this spawned off the outer planar domains, who may have used this as a leeching point to draw elemental matter with which to build said planes of thought. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 20:54:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As for Limbo I think that it represent it's chaotic planar nature well but it is not the same as elemental chaos - not everthing have to have ties to everything...
My idea wasn't to tie everything to everything else... My thinking is that if Limbo and the Elemental Chaos are so similar, there could be a connection. Especially if the only real difference is location.
As for the rest... Well, parts of Limbo can be stabilized by a strong enough will. And divine realms are simply segments of larger planes, staked out by someone who would be capable of stabilizing sizable chunks of Limbo. I don't know that it's canon, but it makes sense to me that someone with enough willpower could stabilize and then break off a piece of Limbo. And from there, having those pieces become the planes we know isn't that much of a stretch, especially given that belief forms reality on the Outer Planes. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 20:46:17
Or he was the first attempt for gorgon that didn't worked very well .-))
As for Limbo I think that it represent it's chaotic planar nature well but it is not the same as elemental chaos - not everthing have to have ties to everything...
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 19:56:16
Working with the idea of the addition of Gorag meaning SOMETHING that we haven't necessarily defined..... Demo-Gorag... Demogorag... Demogorgan... Demogorgon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 19:17:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Bazim-Gorag being two names (and having noted he had two heads)... I like that idea, but more so that Bazim was the batrachi lord and Gorag is an entity from possibly the Far Realm (or some similar closed off prison plane) that it aligned itself too. Given that he's the lord of the Pandemonium Stone, and said stone seems to have randomness tied to it, it has a little bit of a Far Realm flavor to it. Along this idea, Dungeon #197 presents something I just found... Shoth-Gorag.... a being that was from the far realm, has been destroyed, but left behind a stone heart. Its trying to "reflesh" itself by gathering sacrifices. So, perhaps this "Gorag" being has tied itself to several individuals? Just a thought.
BTW, Limbo if anything feels like an outer plane that is essentially "the elemental chaos". Granted, I know that doesn't make sense (i.e. outer plane that is a soup of all the inner planes). However, if we think of Limbo as the elemental chaos given ties to thought. Perhaps its a place that the gods started to usurp some of the essence of the elemental chaos in order to form the outer planes. Essentially, it becomes something equivalent to Ginunngagap of Norse legend). Hmmm, and I just got this picture of this particular place being the birthing ward for primordials that was to give birth to beings of pure thought.
Maybe Limbo was once part of the Elemental Chaos, and became separated when powerful entities started shaping it to their will. Once that happened, the other Outer Planes were spawned off of Limbo. Likely, it happened as divine realms formed demiplanes, but then the demiplanes of like-minded powers started merging together, forming the planes as we know them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 18:57:38
Yeah, I never liked 'Limbo' on the Great Wheel - that just always felt wrong to me, right from the beginning. They did that just to balance things. If anything Limbo's nature should be closer to that of the astral and ethereal - touching everything. If it was like that, that would be the PERFECT place to stick Abeir - "out in limbo, somewhere".
How about if 'Gorag' was a title, or something akin to 'race' (classification?) of primordial? Some lower-echelon type? Like a primordial version of a celestial/fiend? Basically, those things could evolve ('level up') into a primordial, and if one were forced to merge with a mortal (or semi-mortal, in the case of the Creatori), you would get that 'twinned' being - 'something'-Gorag. Thus, those two would be separate entities - two different cases of something merging with a Gorag. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 18:09:30
On the Bazim-Gorag being two names (and having noted he had two heads)... I like that idea, but more so that Bazim was the batrachi lord and Gorag is an entity from possibly the Far Realm (or some similar closed off prison plane) that it aligned itself too. Given that he's the lord of the Pandemonium Stone, and said stone seems to have randomness tied to it, it has a little bit of a Far Realm flavor to it. Along this idea, Dungeon #197 presents something I just found... Shoth-Gorag.... a being that was from the far realm, has been destroyed, but left behind a stone heart. Its trying to "reflesh" itself by gathering sacrifices. So, perhaps this "Gorag" being has tied itself to several individuals? Just a thought.
BTW, Limbo if anything feels like an outer plane that is essentially "the elemental chaos". Granted, I know that doesn't make sense (i.e. outer plane that is a soup of all the inner planes). However, if we think of Limbo as the elemental chaos given ties to thought. Perhaps its a place that the gods started to usurp some of the essence of the elemental chaos in order to form the outer planes. Essentially, it becomes something equivalent to Ginunngagap of Norse legend). Hmmm, and I just got this picture of this particular place being the birthing ward for primordials that was to give birth to beings of pure thought. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 19:49:12
I once theorized that Asmodeus was an 'avatar of Ahriman' (GtH hints at that), which works out quite well on a few levels, but not after the fiend lore (3e, or 4e?) that firmly established him as a 'Fallen Celestial'. This why I now think he just 'taps into' Ahriman, who would be an Ordial (uber-primordial - one of the first, what I dubbed 'Eternals').
I like Bazim-Gorag as two batrachi initially - Bazim & Gorag; that works really well.
Is it canon (anywhere) that the Abyss is that 'sliver of Corruption' the Obyriths pushed into the Universe? I can work with that.
The Queen of Chaos could still be The Queen of Air & Darkness, although I doubt she's Auril. Thats why I think maybe Pale Night may have been the first QoA&D (and her being an Obyrith works as well). Personally, I just think that Auril took the name because no-one was really using it anymore.
And she herself may be waging a 'quiet war' with Ithaqua (a being from the Cthulhu mythos, who may be some sot of 'cold/air primordial'). He'd fit right in with the 'Princes of elemental Evil'. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 11:50:14
About Abyss - for me this was orginaly place where Batrachi gods lived (now called Obyriths) and demons as we know them came later and claimed their own domains (layers of Abyss) and then usurped leadership over dormant Batrachi gods. Some of them remained active within this new setting and got lost within the ranks. Demogorgon himself show some signs of his batrachi origin (tentacles). Pazrael on the other hand seems like fallen Aaocra god and vrocs seems to be his progeny.
Bazim-Gorag himself states that he was subservient to Zhoukoudien (GHotR p.5) so he was one of the surviving Batrachi lord (not god) who left for Limbo after their realm was destroyed and have been changed to his new form. Possibly he could be two Batrachi merged together by forces of Limbo...
Nine Hells were formerly a location of Sarrukh gods (World Serpent) who corrupted angels and other beings to become devils and create Nine Hells. It is said that in depths of Nessus Asmodeus is licking his wounds in his serpent form. This could be that he is Sarrukh god himself of that he guards his mentor who corrupted him.
To complete the picture Aaocra gods were in Celestia and Fey in Arborea. They had gods so they had to go semewhere after death... This evolution of planes seems logical to me and explain a lot and I haven't found a serious gap in this theory yet. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 20:44:18
The Queen of Chaos and the Raven Queen are two different beings. The Raven Queen was originally a mortal, to begin with.
And yeah, most articles of D&D in wikipedia are outdated. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 17:59:33
Well, I was thinking this 'Wolf Spirit' was probably a primal 'Beast Lord', and therefor predated the Uthgardt by like... everything (So when would the Beast Lords have first appeared? I'm thinking they would have had to have existed on that 'First World' - perhaps they were the 'templates' for the other animals?) The fun part about that is that there could be some of these around who's species has died off (maybe the Terrasque? Although I have other ideas for that dude...)
Also, such things would be multispheric, and like all these multispheric archtypes, it seems it's a fairly common thing for some 'local' god to kill their aspect and take their stuff (for that world). Perhaps Uthgar defeated the wolf totem, and then this werewolf god usurped his power after Uthgar died? Maybe after it was weakened by Uthgar? Regardless, lycanthropes are tricky, because Selūne seems to hold a lot of sway over them in FR.
But since the quote you had said 'Skahmau the Wolfshead', I'm thinking that Miksa is a perfect fit. I'm thinking about connecting Miksa to Zanassu somehow, but it doesn't really work out. Maybe Zanassu was able to usurp some of Miksa's stuff after he was imprisoned? Something like that might work. What is it with demons and spiders, anyway? (hhmmmm... 8 = chaos... that could be it..).
Just realized that Miska and the 'Queen of Chaos' did their thing and went after worlds, which tells me this may have been sometime soon after the Sundering (The Shattering of the First World) and the Dawn War - maybe more of those 'brush fire' wars I mentioned elsewhere (so the Dawn War never truly ended, it fragmented into dozens, if not hundreds, of other conflicts).
Also, no-one ever bothers to update Wikipedia - most of that info is pre-4e, and definitely all pre-5e. (so take whatever I just posted with a grain of salt). Anyone got newer info on Miska and this 'Queen of Chaos' (could she be the Raven Queen)? If so, she seems to have changed her temperament a great deal; we could also possibly connected her to Auril (the current QoA&D, or Pale Knight, if we go with my other theories). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 16:00:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Do any of the Uthgardt have a Wolf totem? You may want to start there.
Just checked - the Grey Wolf tribe, and interestingly, they can all shape-shift into wolves. 
We also have the 'Wolf-Spider' Miska (wolf-headed spider, so thats an oddity), and there is also the Werewolf god in Monster mythology, Daragor (he may actually BE the Grey Wolf spirit, or rather, it has absorbed/replaced the beast totem, since it doesn't behave as other best totems, with the whole lycanthropy thing).
EDIT:
I just found a pic of Miksa with two heads, and weirdly, in my Search results I also see a picture of Bazim Gorag and Demogorgon - two other beings with two heads, who also happen to be two guys we've been discussing elsewhere. Could that be some sort of 'primordial' thing? Maybe Ettins are closer to the primal (celestial) giants than we thought. 
Yeah, but one thing we have to keep in mind (regarding Uthgardt) would be this fight between the two potential gods is a "legend" back in -6048 DR. So, Uthgardt would not have been around yet (that being said, I may have misread you, and you meant that Uthgardt killed this Skahmau and thus took the wolf). |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 05:24:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just found a pic of Miksa with two heads, and weirdly, in my Search results I also see a picture of Bazim Gorag and Demogorgon - two other beings with two heads, who also happen to be two guys we've been discussing elsewhere. Could that be some sort of 'primordial' thing? Maybe Ettins are closer to the primal (celestial) giants than we thought.
In the 4e Tomb of Horrors remake, it's revealed that Amoth, a god of justice and mercy, almost split Demogorgon in two before Orcus slew the god. Not sure if there's any other lore on Demogorgon talking about his two heads. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 04:30:53
According to 4e (Monster Manual 2), ettins were created by Demogorgon from the blood of a defeated primordial of earth and stone. Ettins are no proper giants (at least, in 4e terms) as they weren't created by the titans.
BTW, 4e has another "ascended" creature into a primordial: Balcoth. He was originally a titan that became way too powerful, and eventually gods and primordials began to consider him a primordial on his own. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 02:24:56
Do any of the Uthgardt have a Wolf totem? You may want to start there.
Just checked - the Grey Wolf tribe, and interestingly, they can all shape-shift into wolves.
We also have the 'Wolf-Spider' Miska (wolf-headed spider, so thats an oddity), and there is also the Werewolf god in Monster mythology, Daragor (he may actually BE the Grey Wolf spirit, or rather, it has absorbed/replaced the beast totem, since it doesn't behave as other best totems, with the whole lycanthropy thing).
EDIT:
I just found a pic of Miksa with two heads, and weirdly, in my Search results I also see a picture of Bazim Gorag and Demogorgon - two other beings with two heads, who also happen to be two guys we've been discussing elsewhere. Could that be some sort of 'primordial' thing? Maybe Ettins are closer to the primal (celestial) giants than we thought. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 23:39:51
Hmmm, and back to the original poster's question for a second. There was the section in the book that talked about Khises the half man half hippo hero. There's also a reference to "Skahmau the Wolfshead".
The opposite wall was painted with a scene from legend: at the bottom of the Mother of Rivers, the hippo-here Khises battled Skahmau the Wolfshead.
There's also a reference in an earlier thread to Skahmau when Amenstar leaves the death worshipping Vizars, and it says
"Those slimy sons of Skahmau," Star said to herself. "I'll die before I ever let them touch me again"
I'm not quite sure whether to read that literally (as in Skahmau is the deity worshipped by the Vizars) or if she's just cursing.... feel like its more of the latter. However, that does also open up possibly another deity as Skahmau the Wolfshead. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 22:42:41
I like some of the above. The idea of the Pharaonic pantheon having tasked genies and some being primordials for instance. Also, given the roles of many of the "early" Pharaonics, I can see them as primordials who later created an outer planar domain (i.e. Heliopolis). Ptah easily fits. Anubis easily fits, and his role as a defender of dead god's bodies becomes even more interesting.
Just to try and work out the supposed Mulhorandi family tree... According to Mulhorandi (rather than Egyptian) creation myths, Ra is the original father instead of Atum... though both are very similar and related entities (Atum is the setting sun and is serpentine, Ra is the rising sun). Anyway, in the Mulhorandi myth, Shu (air) and Tefnut (atmospheric condensation) are born of Ra, and they produce Geb (earth) and Nut (sky). Geb and Nut then produce Isis, Set, Osiris, and Nepthys (who are more like traditional gods). Osiris produces Horus with Isis. Thoth is a sister of Isis, but not a child of Geb and Nut.... so either he's a child of Geb and Hathor or Nut and Ra??? No idea where Bast and Anhur are "birthed" from in canon lore.
Hmmm, interestingly, in RW mythology Anhur and Bastet are brother and sister, and Anhur sometimes appears as a lion-headed god. You know, I had considered having Bast/Sharess/Felidae over in Katashaka. I'm thinking it might be interesting if the whole pantheon was over there now (not as a dominant religion, but...), given its animal likenesses.... could also be interesting since I'm also putting red wizards there. Having them finding their traditional "divine" enemies found amongst a totally different population could be fun. I've got some Ibideans who would be great with Thoth. Set and Sebek would also work. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 02:22:46
More food for thought - perhaps the pharonics are indeed one of the most ancient pantheons (so quite a few of their number would not be ascended mortals - some might even be primordials), and thus have a very heavy 'elemental' connection to things? It would make sense that they were tied to genies, since genies are the 'minions' of the Outer planes - perhaps the pharonics ruled over Dgen before some elementals became corrupted, and became demons? Maybe Ra & Co. were the first to notice things were "starting to go awry" just before the Godwar got under full swing.
They could have initially has something similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy using all those tasked genies, and when the rebellion started, they lost their 'empire'/control/whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the idea of demonic Khasta, be careful. There's also the Khaasta that served Demogorgon and later other demons, and those look like lizard/dragonfolk. They're the ones that hate the Sarrukh.
Thanks for the names of Kiga and Bauh Yin. Given my interest in Katashaka as a "beast humanoid" area, these may turn useful. Have to read up on them.
I am aware of the Khaasta - in fact, that part of where I got my idea from. They are the 'mercs' on the lower planes. We know at some point demogorgon 'freed them' (very uncharacteristic - are we sure they weren't mercenaries all along?), and some of the lore also says he created them. Conundrum? Hardly... If you ignore the D&D (and FR) Wiki entries for him and go right to wikipedia (for the REAL dude), its says - quote:
Demogorgon, although often ascribed to Greek mythology, is attributed to a fourth-century scholar, imagined as the name of a pagan deity or demon, associated with the underworld and envisaged as a powerful primordial being, whose very name had been taboo.
So if primordials and 'primal dragons' were basically the same thing (ideas we've been bouncing around in several threads), lets just imagine that RW canon trumps D&D canon for just a sec - perhaps Demogorgon was something else before he was a Demon Lord; we know (as of 4e) that demons are corrupted elementals, and what is a primordial, other than an uber-elemental? So, if he was a primordial, then he could have 'fashioned' the Khaasta race way back when, on that First World, in his likeness, making them a very early 'dragonborn' prototype (this all occurred before he absorbed the Mandril Beast lord  ). But seriously, I've seen art wherein he looks much less 'simian'.
Later, when the Godwar breaks out, and the Pharonics are looking for any help they can get against their rebelling Dgen, Meercla/Baast shows up with a large group Khaastas in tow, and offers them to Ra. The deal is that they will fight on the side of 'law', but forevermore the 'gods' must ignore them and not meddle directly in their affairs (which unfortunately gives them free access to the mortal realms - and other planes - later on, something most fiends do not have). All the gods of Law had to agree, and they did so, albeit the Vedic pantheon did so reluctantly (it may have even be one of the reasons why the Aesir {Assuras} and the Vedics {Vanir} went to war later on).
After the war, some Khaasta were caught feeding on the 'corpse of Ymir' (the material world), and were chased by Vishnu. Ra decreed to Meerclar (who would now take the name 'Baast' in the Pharonic Pantheon) that these Khaasta - Ra's Kasta - would have to wear the visage of Baast for all eternity because of their behavior during the war (the face of hungry beasts). This is why Rakshasa are all so good at illusion and beguiling magic - no-one really knows their true forms.
In other words, they DID look reptilian (and many still do), but this particular group was forced to look more like Baast, which they didn't mind since they wanted to distinguish themselves from the other khaasta anyway. When the Great Wheel was created, and the New multiverse built from the fragmented old, the gods were forced to keep their promise, and khaastas/Rakshasa are one of the few groups of fiends that can move freely about on the Prime Material (and even enter the upper planes!) without being accosted, deterred, or detained by 'gods', or other agents of the divine (unless, of course, they break some other rules, which they do, but are careful to hide it).
At a later date, Demogorgon's Khaasta armies fought against the Monkey lord Sugriva, which ended with demogorgon absorbing Sugriva, but such was Sugrivas strength that even as he dissolved into Demogorgon, the Archfiend grew a second head, and both heads bore the visage of Sugriva (because in Vedic mythology, the Rakshasas fought against the Monkey King Sugriva). It was then that Demogorgon had his uncharacteristic 'good' moment and freed the Khaasta. Everything's connected.
Occasionally Sugriva is able to push the surface, and the two heads fight. Monkey - the K-T deity - is the son of Sugriva, and hates demogorgon fiercely (its the one thing he is always serious about). The Vedic pantheon, BTW, IS canonically active in lower K-T. 
EDIT:
And I almost forgot the most important part - In Mystara, OD&D, the catfolk there are called 'Rakasta', which I believe is what got me first going with this crazy theory. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 00:57:24
Just rereading (and rethinking) some of what I said earlier...
Why couldn't Annam be the 'father of the Norse pantheon'? Loki's considered a 'half-giant' afterall - maybe it was really on his father's side.
So if Loki is Graz'zt, then Pale Night shacked-up with Annam, and begat Loki/Graz'zt, and mortals are just getting it backwards - that the father, not the mother, was a 'Celestial (Jotun) Giant'.
And since I think Graz'zt and Araushnee are brother & sister, that makes Pale Night a former archfey. Not sure who Lolth's father would be - I already used Maelkith as the father of Gru-mass (Gruumsh). Then again, they all got around, especially Fey, so if Maelkith begat Lolth on Pale Night (it sounds like a fey name, doesn't it?), and he begat Gruumsh on her sister Titania, then that would make Pale Night the original QoA&D, who gave up her title to Auril (her daughter?), and parts of her portfolio to Shar (Shar may also be an Obyrith - seriously, i think we are 'splitting hairs' differentiating between Obyriths and primordials). It would also make Guumsh and Lolth both cousins and half-siblings (Gruumsh remains unrelated to Annam), and Corellon would be Gruumsh's twin brother (by s different father - Frey, of the Vanir), and Lolth's cousin (which I had assumed anyway - just figuring a new personage as 'the mother'). Maybe its good that Titania was replace with Tiandra in 4e (Tiandra then being the daughter of Titania, and the granddaughter of Danu/Pale Knight).
That fixes some stuff for me - after 4e made Auril the 'Queen of Air & Darkness' it broke some of my lore (Auril doesn't sound like "Lolth's mommy"). Pale Knight is a perfect fit for an archfey (and probably something even more ancient - keep her as an Obyrith; beings of this magnitude can be whatever they want). In fact, a LOT of the original 'Elder Gods' can be Obyrith. They may have been a race of quasi-deities from the Far Realms - the universe that preceded this one in my own homebrew cosmology (technically, the 'Far Realms' is whats left of that first universe - it would have had no need for that title - or any title for that matter - when it was the 'only show in town').
Hmmmm... that would mean the goddess I had pegged as Titania's (and the QoA&D's) mother - Danu - would have to have been an Obyrith. She created the fey race. That would mean I'd have to rewrite Pale Knight as a half-Obyrith (maybe - it would depend on who HER father was). Maybe Anu? Could Anu have also been an Obyrith? I suppose its possible. Titania and Auril could have had the same mother, but different fathers (seems to be a running theme in my proto-cosmology). On the other hand, Anu is more likely a primordial, and like I said, the only difference between them and Obyriths is probably what universe they were born in (Thus, Obyriths were the 'primordials' of their universe - the first universe).
Oh Geeze - I was trying to find a connection to Ki (a fairly obvious choice for a 'fey goddess' that went mainstream), which lead me to Anu, and now that I am looking at a Sumerian 'family tree' I am circling right back to Tiamat again. 
EDIT:
Holy Crap! I just read that 'Danu' is sometimes spelled/pronounced 'Anu' - I just went full-circle again! Maybe some one told Pale Knight to go f___ herself?  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 23:46:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Huh, and "Oden" and Loki apparently make an appearance in the story Rime Isle..... I have had Swords and Ice Magic for probably 20 years and never read it. Or at least I hope I still have it. Might be sidetracked now.
All major Earth pantheons were represented in the Desert of Desolation AP. The lore therein, I think, spins them as small temples to each, but I think of them more as 'research facilities', where the stored all the records they had on every pantheon in every Crystal Sphere they visited - think of those rooms like 'living museums', where you were actually inside a 'display' of a typical temple, and there were many books and items you could read and interact with for research purposes. There were probably hundreds of them that we would not even recognize, from 'strange and distant worlds'. This all makes sense within the known lore of Imaskar - they were very much interested in 'all things divine', because they themselves did not believe 'the gods' were anything more than super-powerful magi, and they were trying to replicate the process for their own ends.
And people from everywhere - not just Earth, but every corner of the mulitverse - have become 'stuck' on Toril at one time or another, so it makes perfect sense that nearly every god would have a mention somewhere in some old, dusty tome. Some gods 'stuck', and many did not. The gods of the Old Empires are actually fairly recent arrives, relatively, and they are still 'sorting things out' (which is why we lost the Untheric pantheon - natural selection at work... it was just a matter of time). Gods come and go, and mortals just try to keep track of who they are paying lip-service to this week.
EDIT:
In my Realms, 'Odin' is Annam - one of the most ancient powers in the universe. A primordial who created the Giants, and who sided with 'the good guys' (re., 'the winners'), and was not imprisoned (although he did eventually get kicked out of Realmspace for a time). He is also the same being as the Dwarven 'High God'. I toyed with connecting him to Gruumsh, because of the 'eye thing', but it just doesn't work out. He set his children (the giants and dwarves) against the dragons, because the dragons were (mostly) working for the side of chaos during the Dawn War (there is more to it than that - dragons were just 'dumb animals' initially, used like construction equipment when the universe was first being built. 'Something' awakened them, and they rebelled against their former masters). And now I am picturing the Flinstones... and Barney Rubble is a dwarf.
Loki... Loki... Satan? Nah, too mean. He's probably a really good fit for Graz'zt - a guy known for switching sides and causing mayhem whenever the mood strikes him. I have him pegged as a Dark Elf, originally, and he went through an apotheosis similar to Lolth. I suppose that would make Pale Night a (fallen?) Archfey. Maybe Pale Night was the first Queen of Air and Darkness, and she gave up that title to become what she is, and Auril (her daughter?) took it over from her. Just rethinking some things... i really like Loki as Graz'zt... it makes so much sense (horned hat and all!).
Yeah, Annam does sound like Odin in some respects, but his kids just don't fit Odin for me. That's why I prefer that he's some other giant from the lore.
Actually, my favorite take for Odin in the realms actually involves the death of Thor in this crystal sphere during the shadow epoch, and his giving of his portfolio of Thunder/Lightning to his father. Then Odin turns dark... and changes his name to Talos. He also hates Primordials, killing them and taking their power and name (so he killed Bhaelros when said Primordial showed up).
My take for Loki is Valigan Thirdborn (god of anarchy whom Tyr shows up to combat in the remnants of ancient Jhaamdath).
And of course, I firmly believe Helm is Heimdall.... sat at the top of a rainbow bridge (celestial staircase) leading into heaven as a guard???
The other ones, not thinking they're here any longer.... though I wouldn't mind say having the Metahel still worshipping some of them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 23:20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the writer gave the place a very Young Kindoms/Old Kingdoms (Elric/Newhon) vibe, almost completely ignoring FR canon.
Because NOTHING was 'in the desert' before there was a desert.
I had always pictured early Calimshan as rolling grasslands (savanna) before the genies had their fight and created the desert. Now, because of that craptastic lore, I have to imagine it more of a 'badlands' type of place, like the old American southwest (not quite 'desert', but dry plains and scrublands).
Coramshan is NOT 'a city', it was the name of Calimshan after the Dgen fell from power.
As for those other two cities (Zubat & Cursrah) - thats easy: they existed where the desert now stands, so were abandoned. thousands of years later, there wouldn't be a whole lot left. I have to wonder why the author just didn't use Shoon? Perhaps reading a sourcebook prove too much for them?
ANYWAY... Oxonsis actually appears to be the most interesting find. Its described as both a 'city' and a 'homeland', which makes me think that Calimshan underwent a 'citystates' period (post-genie) briefly before uniting in a single nation, and that each citystate controlled a large amount of land outside the city proper as its 'demesne', which would also be called by the city-name. Using that, we can fudge the whole 'Coramshan' thing (the name of the most powerful city, and thus the name of the lands it holds sway over, which eventually becomes the name of the country, once unified). I think I'm going to have to read that novel now.
And you CAN'T steal the Melnibonean stuff for Calimshan, because I alrea stole it all for the Endless wastes! Vulture-Lions and Imaskari (Dharzi) Hunting Dogs are just too cool to ignore.
Homebrew Wraning
As for Meerclar - that is an ancient (original?) name for Bast, who began as a 'beast Lord' and wormed her way into the Pharonic Pantheon (one of THE oldest) when she convinced a group of near-demons (Khasta) to side with the 'forces of good' during the Godwar. Working under the Pharonics, these mercenaries became known as "Ra's Khasta" (eventually Rakshasa), and they were feared for their shear brutality and total lack of remorse or pity. After the war, Meerclar (who became Baast) was accepted into their pantheon, but with two conditions - the troops she brought to Ra would now forevermore "wear her visage" (become cat-like), and she herself is charged with keeping an eye on Set (who may be Asmodeus - he was another the 'gods of good' no longer trusted after the awn War. So now catkind is forever 'the stalker', and 'the serpent' is forever 'the hidden slithering'.
Another, more feral aspect of Baast is Kiga, from Zakhara, who is venerated by Wereleopards (a very popular theme in K-T, BTW). I am still trying to figure out the connection between Baast and The Black Leopard (Bauh Yin) in K-T. Perhaps a mortal (demipower) son of Baast? She'd also be driving Nobanion nuts, since there is a lot shared portfolio there.
Actually, the desert thing isn't overblown. In the novel, its noted that the sands started spreading in the past 52 years since Calim and Memnon "disappeared" (the common people don't know what the elves did). It also notes that the clashing of the hate of these two entities is artificially hastening the desert's spread. The two cities of Oxonsis and Zubat were friendly in their grandfather's days, but the spreading of the desert is making things come to a head. The city states are headed towards war over resources. Cursrah had an aqueduct mainly due to its mass population that it once held.
There was one very jarring thing for me when they did say something about someone hiring "Tuigan Barbarians", but I just glossed over that. Another jarring thing was that the captain of Amenstar's personal guard was named "Captain Anhur"... but hey, this was two thousand years BEFORE the Mulan folk had even arrived in the world. It was also a couple hundred years before Jhaamdath started. Imaskar was around, but it was far away.
The story had a very DARK feel for it headed into the end. It felt very Pharaonic as well, due to the fact that the rulers were also "of the blood of genies". I had read the story 20 years ago, so I had a rough idea where it was headed, but it was not a bad reread just because of how it ends.
On the idea of demonic Khasta, be careful. There's also the Khaasta that served Demogorgon and later other demons, and those look like lizard/dragonfolk. They're the ones that hate the Sarrukh.
Thanks for the names of Kiga and Bauh Yin. Given my interest in Katashaka as a "beast humanoid" area, these may turn useful. Have to read up on them. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 21:50:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just rethinking some things... i really like Loki as Graz'zt... it makes so much sense (horned hat and all!).
Coincidentally, the beginning of the name Waukeen sounds very similar to Loki... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 21:35:02
Im pretty sure that the desert in calimshan was a lush grassland and maybe even a forest where the elves lived that trapped calim/memnon in the first place.
This is why i class novels as third or even 4th tier sources for lore. I imagine then as tales told by bards about events. The truth is now long lost to history and we are left with the historically inaccurate version that persists through minstrels and bards |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 20:08:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Huh, and "Oden" and Loki apparently make an appearance in the story Rime Isle..... I have had Swords and Ice Magic for probably 20 years and never read it. Or at least I hope I still have it. Might be sidetracked now.
All major Earth pantheons were represented in the Desert of Desolation AP. The lore therein, I think, spins them as small temples to each, but I think of them more as 'research facilities', where the stored all the records they had on every pantheon in every Crystal Sphere they visited - think of those rooms like 'living museums', where you were actually inside a 'display' of a typical temple, and there were many books and items you could read and interact with for research purposes. There were probably hundreds of them that we would not even recognize, from 'strange and distant worlds'. This all makes sense within the known lore of Imaskar - they were very much interested in 'all things divine', because they themselves did not believe 'the gods' were anything more than super-powerful magi, and they were trying to replicate the process for their own ends.
And people from everywhere - not just Earth, but every corner of the mulitverse - have become 'stuck' on Toril at one time or another, so it makes perfect sense that nearly every god would have a mention somewhere in some old, dusty tome. Some gods 'stuck', and many did not. The gods of the Old Empires are actually fairly recent arrives, relatively, and they are still 'sorting things out' (which is why we lost the Untheric pantheon - natural selection at work... it was just a matter of time). Gods come and go, and mortals just try to keep track of who they are paying lip-service to this week.
EDIT:
In my Realms, 'Odin' is Annam - one of the most ancient powers in the universe. A primordial who created the Giants, and who sided with 'the good guys' (re., 'the winners'), and was not imprisoned (although he did eventually get kicked out of Realmspace for a time). He is also the same being as the Dwarven 'High God'. I toyed with connecting him to Gruumsh, because of the 'eye thing', but it just doesn't work out. He set his children (the giants and dwarves) against the dragons, because the dragons were (mostly) working for the side of chaos during the Dawn War (there is more to it than that - dragons were just 'dumb animals' initially, used like construction equipment when the universe was first being built. 'Something' awakened them, and they rebelled against their former masters). And now I am picturing the Flinstones... and Barney Rubble is a dwarf.
Loki... Loki... Satan? Nah, too mean. He's probably a really good fit for Graz'zt - a guy known for switching sides and causing mayhem whenever the mood strikes him. I have him pegged as a Dark Elf, originally, and he went through an apotheosis similar to Lolth. I suppose that would make Pale Night a (fallen?) Archfey. Maybe Pale Night was the first Queen of Air and Darkness, and she gave up that title to become what she is, and Auril (her daughter?) took it over from her. Just rethinking some things... i really like Loki as Graz'zt... it makes so much sense (horned hat and all!). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 19:57:10
So the writer gave the place a very Young Kindoms/Old Kingdoms (Elric/Newhon) vibe, almost completely ignoring FR canon.
Because NOTHING was 'in the desert' before there was a desert.
I had always pictured early Calimshan as rolling grasslands (savanna) before the genies had their fight and created the desert. Now, because of that craptastic lore, I have to imagine it more of a 'badlands' type of place, like the old American southwest (not quite 'desert', but dry plains and scrublands).
Coramshan is NOT 'a city', it was the name of Calimshan after the Dgen fell from power.
As for those other two cities (Zubat & Cursrah) - thats easy: they existed where the desert now stands, so were abandoned. thousands of years later, there wouldn't be a whole lot left. I have to wonder why the author just didn't use Shoon? Perhaps reading a sourcebook prove too much for them?
ANYWAY... Oxonsis actually appears to be the most interesting find. Its described as both a 'city' and a 'homeland', which makes me think that Calimshan underwent a 'citystates' period (post-genie) briefly before uniting in a single nation, and that each citystate controlled a large amount of land outside the city proper as its 'demesne', which would also be called by the city-name. Using that, we can fudge the whole 'Coramshan' thing (the name of the most powerful city, and thus the name of the lands it holds sway over, which eventually becomes the name of the country, once unified). I think I'm going to have to read that novel now.
And you CAN'T steal the Melnibonean stuff for Calimshan, because I already stole it all for the Endless wastes! Vulture-Lions and Imaskari (Dharzi) Hunting Dogs are just too cool to ignore.
Homebrew Warning
As for Meerclar - that is an ancient (original?) name for Bast, who began as a 'beast Lord' and wormed her way into the Pharonic Pantheon (one of THE oldest) when she convinced a group of near-demons (Khasta) to side with the 'forces of good' during the Godwar. Working under the Pharonics, these mercenaries became known as "Ra's Khasta" (eventually Rakshasa), and they were feared for their shear brutality and total lack of remorse or pity. After the war, Meerclar (who became Baast) was accepted into their pantheon, but with two conditions - the troops she brought to Ra would now forevermore "wear her visage" (become cat-like), and she herself is charged with keeping an eye on Set (who may be Asmodeus - he was another the 'gods of good' no longer trusted after the Dawn War). So now catkind is forever 'the stalker', and 'the serpent' is forever 'the hidden slithering'.
Another, more feral aspect of Baast is Kiga, from Zakhara, who is venerated by Wereleopards (a very popular theme in K-T, BTW). I am still trying to figure out the connection between Baast and The Black Leopard (Bauh Yin) in K-T. Perhaps a mortal (demipower) son of Baast? She'd also be driving Nobanion nuts, since there is a lot shared portfolio there. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 16:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I see a map at the beginning, and its got a date of -6048 DR, so still not back far enough to that timeframe.
Anyway I can get you to send me a copy of the map?
Thats one I haven't got, and my pdf copy is text-only.
You won't be impressed. Its just a city map. I just finished this by the way. It was a bit of a fun reread. Some notes I made
Races: Rhinaur (centaur like Rhino folk) and Manscorpions in the area
Year of the Great Arrival is "different" than whats in the GHotR. The map is "current year" for part of the story, and that is -6048 DR and whenever they flashback, the chapters say "383 years after the great arrival". That would put the Great Arrival at -7325 DR.
Cities back then. Coramshan, Oxonsis, and Zubat
Known Gods: Selune, Shar, Ibrandul, Bhaelros
Possible Gods: Khises the Hippo Hero (half man, half hippo); there is a reference to the "Dark Spectre that watches with nine eyes" who may also be "the Grim One".... and this appears to be some kind of death god maybe; there is also a reference to "Blind me, Orus of the Thousand Eyes";
I wonder if there might not have been some kind of beholder deities or somesuch worshipped in the area, especially since there was a hive kind of nearby at one point. At one point, Ed also mentioned Iltyr as a giant floating eyeball that was related to Tyr (though this didn't resemble a beholder other than it was a big eye).
Oh, and elsewhere in the book, where it references a death god, they refer to them as she, not he. I would almost say that they were referencing Shar with the "Dark Spectre" comment, but then there's the "Grim One" and "the nine eyes" references.... plus the Bakkal seems all about DUTY.
As I thought on the idea of these multi-eyed deities and possible ties to the beholder gods. I also remembered that Ilmater is strong here, and Ed himself says he based Ilmater on Issek of the Jug of the Nehwon mythology. I also note the 4 neutral elemental lords are based upon the elemental lords of Melnibonean mythology (Grome = Grumbar, Kakatal = Kossuth, Misha = Akadi, Strasha = Istishia) , but with different names. So, it might be fun to pull from those two pantheons.
Nuru-ah - Melnibonean - Giant Cow goddess that cures sick and wounded. Could also be related to Audumbla (and thereby to my version of Bhalla).
Pyaray - Melnibonean - giant blood red octopus god of the sea deeps, which has a fleet of undead sailors using sunken ships.
Meerclar - Melnibonean - saber-toothed cat goddess. Think I may steal this one for elsewhere too. Figure Sharess/Bast/Felidae may have taken her over.
Roofdrak - Melnibonean - giant humanoid wolfhound god, master of dogs... could make a good gnoll deity besides Yeenoghu.
Ningauble of the Seven Eyes - Nehwon - he's not a god in his portrayal according to the old deities and demigods, but he watches multiple worlds from his caves near the Sinking Lands... caves that are links to multiple worlds. His eyes are on tentacles, and you never see inside his hood. I think he'd make a good god of knowledge for the area. Maybe he is "Orus of the Thousand Eyes", and eventually he is "replaced" by Savras (which could fit with Savras' symbol being many eyes in a crystal ball, and his avatar having a third eye).
Rat God - Nehwon -
Mog the Spider God - Nehwon - easiest to link this to Zanassu since the Nehwon mythos doesn't say much. Later killed by Selvetarm. Spider with a human face
Tyaa - Nehwon - winged goddess of evil birds.
Huh, and "Oden" and Loki apparently make an appearance in the story Rime Isle..... I have had Swords and Ice Magic for probably 20 years and never read it. Or at least I hope I still have it. Might be sidetracked now.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 13:57:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oxonsis and Zubat? I've got nothing on those - any info?
I assume the map is of Calimport? I'm having a brain-fart right now - isn't Coramshan another name for Calimshan, or is it an old name for Calimport? Its real late here - I have to check that in the morning.
Khises the Hippo Hero sounds an awful like Shajar from down in Zakhara.
The other two sound like 'beings' from Newhon/Fritz Leiber novels - Nigauble of the Seven Eyes and Sheelba of the Eyeless Face. Their god Issek is our Ilmater (even though the name comes from Finnish Ilmatar), and we have a Newhon Ghoul in FR canon (so now I have to wonder if the 'Great Arrival' actually came from Newhon instead). On the other hand, genie-kind are extra-planer beings, and genies that get summoned on one world could easily serve on many others. It could just be the genies scooped-up some servants from there, Imaskar-style (and by doing so, we got some of their myths & traditions, and maybe even one of their gods... who took the name of a Finnish {Gur/proto-Netherese} god who's power and worship was dying off).
The map is of the city of Cursrah. Its not heavily detailed. Palace. Temples of Selune and Shar. Royal family dwelling. Unnamed surrounding buildings.
According to the novel, 52 years prior to -6048DR is when the fight between Calim and Memnon happened and they disappeared. (so -6100 DR)... This actually matches up with GHotR.
Oh, and I did my math wrong on the earlier post... -6048DR -383 years = -6431 DR for the "great arrival". Granted, new lore trumps old, so GHotR wins with -7800 for Calim... -6800 for Memnon.. plus I like the djinn timeline being longer.
Yeah, I guess there are 3 main cities I should have mentioned in this novel.
Cursrah. The City built by the genies in service to Calim. As a result, everything is perfectly "formed" and "fitted" together (which makes it easy to take apart too. Its out in the middle of Calimshan and its got a great acqueduct built by the genies that delivers water from the mountains. The city is heavily dependent on this aqueduct. "The Bakkal" is the ruler of this city, and his purpose appears to be not to serve the living, but rather to commune with the spirits of the dead which are entombed in the city. When he knows his city must fall, his concern is not for the people, but rather to take apart his city and its wealth, store it away, and magically suspend himself, his court, and his soldiers to come back and rebuild his city for a later day.
Oxonsis. A "working class" / "warrior" city. Samir Pallaton is a prince of the city.
Zubat - city of rich, effete nobles, arts and culture near to Coramshan. It is forced to become a vassal of Coramshan whenever times grow rough, and Coramshan requires them to conquer the city of great Calim - Cursrah.
Royal nobility are known as Samirs and Samiras.
This section below is the best for describing layout. Note, in the below, I don't believe they mean the Dragon Wall of Kara-Tur obviously, but rather the fact that dragon's didn't enter Calimshan at this time. Almost like dragons and primordials don't get along.... noticing something? Very similar to Zakhara too...
"Let me begin with a map." Pallaton plied a dagger for a pointer as he said, "Here we see all our peninsula of Calim's Home, or Calimshan. Her western border is the Dragons' Wall, her northern border the River Agis. Crammed in this corner, penned by mountains and the river, verging on wilderness, stands Oxonsis, my wild and free homeland. At the far south, verging on the Shining Sea, sprawls Coramshan, biggest and boldest of our seaports cities. Close to Coramshan huddles Zubat, a city of arts and culture, and eastward of everyone, isolated by desert, sits tiny Cursrah, guardian of Great Calim's Wisdom." |
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