| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 27 Sep 2016 : 18:00:06
I've always like the character.
He felt like the only competent villain during the period where the heroes had to win.
He assisted the pcs in numerous occasions to deal with bigger evils (see Curse of the Azure Bonds).
He brought back his own god.
He became the chosen of Bane because of his devotion.
since he was killed by the Netheril, he has become Bane's avatar.
If he weren't a villain, he'd be a dang hero.
I wanted to see if he had been updated in 5e and/or any ideas on how to use him for an adventure path. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 21:31:51
The only novels I know of where he makes more than a momentary appearance were back in the TOT era during Zhent the attack on Shadowdale. If there are 4th E books that feature him, I missed them entirely. |
| Shadolan |
Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 20:04:42
Any novels with him once he became an exarch?
Or was he just another villain who was mostly forgotten? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 09:29:20
Funniest part is, if you ignore wandering Sememmon, and grab a few choice other Zhents (The more powerful Cyricists and Wizards) and have them switch to Darkhold with Fzoul's rise to power and the Manshoon Wars, and thereby avoid Fzoul's kill em all so I can switch allegiance again routine then the balance of power tips to Darkhold. All of this was stated as having occurred... not in any detail but still.
Fzoul's busy holding together his house of cards where everyone who hated him suddenly let him take over, so he now has all the same issues Manshoon had with HIM, only now its his new subordinates.
Now, add a hiding Manshoon into the mix, whispering into Sem's ear somehow, things get interesting fast for Fzoul...
Plus, Elminster never promised not to kill Fzoul and Mystra has no reason to tell him not to since he's not furthering magic. By my measure, Fzoul be in deep doo doo - as he's surrounded by enemies and allies who want him dead. |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 22:31:33
It should be factionalized, but have common goals.
It should be the forgotten realms equivalent of hydra, where you take one plot down, two more arise and are furthered. The ultimate in win/win setup.
and there needs to be some sort of working agreement that doesn't cause either to come out swinging, otherwise it won't be a threat.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 21:43:35
Sounds like a good reason to relinquish control of the zhentarim and would probably convince clone sememmon who doesnt necessarily know clone manshoon is actually reporting to fzoul.
Either way you have wandering sememmon who is now a rogue agent, and then clone sememmon who is keeping the western zhentarim together and obeying clone manshoon who is outwardly obeying fzoul while secretly working against him.
Lots of opportunity for intrigue and interesting plots rather than a one dimensional zhentarim where everyone obeys fzoul. Or even worse the zhentarim of 5e |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 20:47:15
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
He's not actually focusing on the Moonstars it was just an example of something he could be focusing on that's more important than the day to day running of the zhentarim.
Plus if it were me and Khelben armed my rival with an artefact that allowed him to gain immense power that might have indirectly contributed to my downfall I would make certain I ruined a few of khelben's toys just out of revenge.
That would again be assuming he knew of the Moonstars... And I still don't see how opposing a group that doesn't affect him could be considered important.
And considering that most Moonstars didn't know Khelben's goals, I don't think Manshoon is going to be able to thwart them.
And he's not the type to react out of spite or petty anger. He'd take his time, see how he could benefit from the situation, make plans to counter or subvert anything Fzoul did, and then worry about Khelben -- assuming he could get more than just revenge from doing so. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 20:23:06
He's not actually focusing on the Moonstars it was just an example of something he could be focusing on that's more important than the day to day running of the zhentarim.
Plus if it were me and Khelben armed my rival with an artefact that allowed him to gain immense power that might have indirectly contributed to my downfall I would make certain I ruined a few of khelben's toys just out of revenge. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 20:08:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon.
This kind of reminds me of what Marvel did with Doctor Doom (coincidence?), back when his storylines got stupid and he started to become a bit 'comical' (he was even beaten by the Punisher during this time!) They decided the 'real' DD was off doing some space/time dimensional whatsis and he shows up, takes-out both other 'Dooms', and says, "I'M BAAAAAAACK!"
Sort of like that. I actually like that a lot - its a great way of sweeping a lot of 'bad story' away under the rug and bringing a potentially iconic character back to what it should of been all along. I was never a big fan of Manshoon, having become an FR-fanboi late in 2e, so I got a face full of the 'stupid', I guess.
He comes back epically more powerful than he was before, and is completely clueless about this 'Spellplague Nonsense'. I could live with that. Make him less of a 'Mustache-twirler' and more of a 'Moriarty' type of villain (like he should have been all along). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 19:56:55
Why would Manshoon give an osquip's behind about the Moonstars, even assuming he knew of them? The Moonstar goals are utterly unrelated to anything the Zhents are doing.
Replacing so-called bad canon with something else that doesn't follow canon leaves you in the exact same place: with bad canon. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 19:30:39
Well im happy to ignore bad canon (canon that ignores all other canon or is just poorly thought out or dwveloped).
So 4e and 5e is ignored.
2e had a beautiful plot hook that split the zhentarim in two and although to outsiders it appeared as one organisation, on the inside it was east versus west.
Sememmon was key to holding together the zhents and cyricists. And he refused to serve fzoul. With the disruption of the manshoon wars there is an opportunity to keep the internal strife and stop it splitting in two.
Sememmon serves only Manshoon. Manshoon is ousted from control of the zhentarim. So Sememmom has to leave or be destroyed.
The wandering Sememmom is the original Sememmon and knows Fzoul is in total control.
In Darkhold is a clone of Sememmon (he often wondered if Manshoon had cloned him) and he believes Manshoon is still in charge but is relinquishing obvious control to Fzoul so that he can focus on other things (like combatting the Moonstars).
So Sememmon reports to Manshoon in the citadel of the raven and Manshoon reports to Fzoul.
Clone Manshoon has to walk a fine line between using Sememmon and Darkhold to gain back control of the Zhentarim while also appearing loyal to Fzoul and reporting the deepest secrets to him.
So east and west are still secretly at each others throats while appearing united under Fzoul.
Oh and the zhents of the west should definitel expand into castle dragonspear as alluded to in 2e |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 18:59:33
I'm not comfortable chucking canon out the window, myself -- at least, not in discussions like this. It's hard to discuss Realmslore if we're not all on the same page.
Personally, I like the Sememmon/Ashemmi development. It resolved some inconsistencies, made some NPCs more usable by decoupling them from the "ooh! It's a villain!" schtick, and was simply an interesting development.
Now, if a PC meets them, that PC isn't going to know what to do. If the two were with the Zhents, still, it'd be easy -- just try to thwart them. Now? They may be on a mission for the Moonstars, they may be working against the Zhents, or they may be just trying to better cover their tracks. There's a lot more potential there. Helping them may be very beneficial for the PCs, or it could just be doing a good deed. Opposing them could be inconsequential or a major blow for good causes.
And it's not like the Zhents are ever going to have a shortage of ambitious mages.
Lastly, I don't think they are star-crossed lovers (they are together!) and I don't think their tale was spun to make them that way. I think that characterization both dismisses prior canon (their relationship dates back to 2E, at least) and also dismisses further development of characters. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 18:09:01
Ive been forgetting canon for over a year now. Welcome to the party.
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 17:27:33
While I don't hate that thought on its face, I do hate the thought of losing one of the two characters... Hesperdan and Manshoon are both great - lets keep them both :)
As far as what is and what is not canon, I vote we stop worrying about that :D... especially when one single Dragon article totally rewrites characters that have been active and EVIL - like slaughtering the villagers evil, like terrorizing everyone within 200 miles evil - and then they are just transformed into star crossed lovers because the realms NEEDS that kind of thing. Add to this that instantly the three way power struggle of the Zhentarim became less interesting. Add to this that the article fell in the era of WOTC forcing bad ideas on Ed that he tried to convince them to not run with and offhandedly complained about.
So lets forget "canon" and make the Zhentarim the old, gloriously well constructed and perilously teetering evil juggernaut it once was. Any takers? :D
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 16:48:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Just an idea but what if the actual master is Sememnon? he has also a southern name and there were speculations that he is a copy/clone of Manshoon. It is also written that Sememnon has kept inner council (Fzoul and Manshoon) in check for most of his career there.
It's canon, though, that Sememmon is a clone, that Manshoon created that clone, and that Sememmon feared Manshoon.
I had Hesperdan more in mind, though I'm not so familiar with his info that I was going to try to make that case. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 15:19:23
Just an idea but what if the actual master is Sememnon? he has also a southern name and there were speculations that he is a copy/clone of Manshoon. It is also written that Sememnon has kept inner council (Fzoul and Manshoon) in check for most of his career there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 14:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I interpreted that as there is one real Manshoon, as opposed to one of the clones that woke unexpectedly, i.e. the Manshoon referred to as Manshoon Prime.
My interpretation is that there is a Manshoon (perhaps the original) that has remained unknown to us. I theorize he somehow created his first clone and sent it off to do something else while he attended to other matters; it was the clone that joined the Zhents and started creating other clones.
Maybe the original Manshoon was the first to find a way around the "must kill the other active clones" compulsion, or maybe the original clone was itself changed, and none of the clones are 100% like the original, hidden Manshoon.
So there's the original Manshoon, remaining hidden, the first-gen Cloneshoon that all the other clones spawned from (and some of them are likely several generations removed from the first), and whatever clones are active now (which may not be from the same clone generation).
The clone generations shouldn't matter, given the spell description, but it's certainly possible that each successive generation has some sort of inherent degradation from the prior ones... And that degradation could have been a factor in all the clones waking up, during the Manshoon Wars.
It's also possible that the original Manshoon has some way to mentally jump into and take over any of the Cloneshoons... We've been told that Manshoon is a master manipulator; what if the ultimate manipulation is between the various Manshoons?
It further occurs to me that this theoretical original Manshoon could be someone we already know... Just under a different guise. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 10:06:34
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
If it was I missed it - don't think I ever read him say that though - although I readily admit to giving up whenever I try to read through the old Ask Ed scrolls - I never get through more than like 10 pages before I throw int the towel.
There's a couple of quotes around:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos, quoted by the Sage in Qs for Ed 17th Jan, 2013
Manshoon's family was originally from those parts, but Manshoon's personal history is almost purely Moonsea. What he did after he became Manshoon of the Zhentarim, well I'm guessing he may have visited the ancestral home ... in Shoonach ... once or twice. He certainly had a spell cache there as I understand and "Cloak & Dagger" alludes to him getting stuff from there after the clones ran amok.
quote:
Ed Greenwood, quoted by George Krashos in Qs for Ed, 9th July 2009
Manshoon’s family name is “Shoon,” and all members of his family use a single name, derived by adding a prefix to “Shoon” (usually an established family one, such as Brar/Brarrara; Caul/Caulra; Dusk/Duskra; Farl/Farla; Gul/Gularra; Harl/Harla; Kul/Kuldra; Man/Mana; Pel/Pelra; Sarr/Sarrla; Tarl/Tarla; Vorl/Vorlarra [the male form first, female form second]). So, no first name and surname, just a single name. This is a naming convention once very popular in southerly coastal lands (of the coast known, in its more northerly reaches, as the Sword Coast), but now dying out because most of the peoples who used it were conquered or made slaves, and gradually died out or intermarried and in any case adopted the naming conventions of those “over” them (so as to “belong” and escape inferior status).
This of course, tells you where Manshoon’s family originally came from. Don’t forget he had an older brother; as far as we know in print thus far, he killed off all of his kin, but the Knights have been searching for an elusive sister of his (Duskrashoon) AND a niece (Tarlashoon) for years, without success - - because they’ve been hiding from Manshoon, and know his finding them will mean their deaths; they are of course far from Zhentil Keep and don’t use their original names.
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| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 07:09:46
If it was I missed it - don't think I ever read him say that though - although I readily admit to giving up whenever I try to read through the old Ask Ed scrolls - I never get through more than like 10 pages before I throw int the towel. |
| Madpig |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 06:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I interpreted that as there is one real Manshoon, as opposed to one of the clones that woke unexpectedly, i.e. the Manshoon referred to as Manshoon Prime.
THAT is also the line that made me think he is in the extra-dimensional space somewhere. Though I guess that was just me adding in where I figured the best places to watch and wait without having to worry about stumbling into a lesser Manshoon.
I also am virtually certain that the Manshoon Ed was talking about was NOT the one seen in his recent novels... which brings us right back around to the question - does the REAL Manshoon ALSO have some spark?
Was is not Ed that pointed out that one bit of ManSHOON's name? You always have to remember that... |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 04:24:02
I interpreted that as there is one real Manshoon, as opposed to one of the clones that woke unexpectedly, i.e. the Manshoon referred to as Manshoon Prime.
THAT is also the line that made me think he is in the extra-dimensional space somewhere. Though I guess that was just me adding in where I figured the best places to watch and wait without having to worry about stumbling into a lesser Manshoon.
I also am virtually certain that the Manshoon Ed was talking about was NOT the one seen in his recent novels... which brings us right back around to the question - does the REAL Manshoon ALSO have some spark? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 02:31:59
It was a response from Ed to a question he'd been asked:
quote:
I prefer to think the REAL Manshoon is in hiding somewhere, watching his “lesser selves” operating, and awaiting his chance to strike at Fzoul at the same time as one of his clones does.
|
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 01:18:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon.
I've always wondered what to make of that. We keep hearing that Manshoon is this ultra threat to the Realms, but we keep seeing Manshoon get foiled too easily. If there is a master Manshoon, I don't know what he's being saved for. We've seen plenty enough bumbling incompetence from him. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 21:53:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon.
Definitely possible, especially if Manshoon is half the manipulator he's claimed to be. But just to keep another option open with interpreting "centuries", perhaps this does only refer to the centuries of his lifetime. If he was born in 1229 as the FR wiki claims, he's still been active over 3 centuries. Admittedly this is a weak interpretation of the language "been active for centuries", but I wouldn't rule it out.
That last point about the "real" Manshoon being off doing his own thing - I wasn't aware of this! Such tantalizing information, where did you get that from? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 20:04:32
What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon. |
| Gareth |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 18:59:24
My suspicion is that the real treasure that the Harpers were in the barrow where Manshoon, Asmuth and Chess encountered them while looking for a sword of power, could well have been this spindle of Mystryl. Especially as it was soon after this that he "officially" decided to study magic, having seen it at play in the barrow.
This is just suspicion though, and a belief that the "official" history in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep was what is widely believed rather than the actual true events. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 17:03:28
The problem with "centuries" is that it covers his whole life... born in the 1200s he's only just over 200 in current realms. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 15:34:49
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I would most likely go with the explanation that Manshoon discovered some object with the spark within POST spellplague, for simplicity sake if for no other reason. This would limit it to this single Manshoon. It would also mean that the other Manshoons would not be weakened.
I'd agree except that the Spellstorm quote says he's had it for centuries. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 14:28:11
I would most likely go with the explanation that Manshoon discovered some object with the spark within POST spellplague, for simplicity sake if for no other reason. This would limit it to this single Manshoon. It would also mean that the other Manshoons would not be weakened.
It would actually be interesting in my mind for this Manshoon to be one of the weaker/younger clones who seized the spark to be more powerful - Vampshoon wakes up - is a thrall to Orbakh and seeks a method to win free of him. In one of Westgate's catacombs he discovers some ancient Netherese object with a small spark of Mystryl power within and uses it to strike down and take over for his vampish creator, becoming more powerful in the process.
As far as the creation of a 9th level spell at low levels, my suggestion has always been that Manshoon did not really create the spell - the spell was contained in the that first spellbook he found. This would explain how he survived his initial rise to power.
Also, remember that it is canon, and entirely within several old subsets of rules for a spellcaster to be able to cast spells that are beyond their ability... just very difficult and dangerous. Difficult and dangerous sounds exactly like something someone who hangs out with the most powerful beholders around would be into. |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 12:47:48
Man I'm liking the idea of getting the band back together to show the world what the zhents would have been able to do if they hadn't had their hey day in 2e, and horribly curb stomped in 4e.
Now seeing as the moonsea was the area for organized play, what has been done in the dungeon masters guild or during organized play that would be interesting?
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| KanzenAU |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 09:42:53
quote:
I would ask about the spark though: is that even possible? I'm not familiar with anyone receiving a divine spark from Mystra any other way than her giving it? I doubt it's something you can find or take from someone else.
Although, there was the instance in Paul Kemp's books of people actually taking the divine spark from a demigod and splitting it 3 ways. So I guess there is precedent for that sort of thing.
I could be wrong, but wasn't Mystra 2.0's survival through to the modern era linked to some of Midnight's mortal blood being spilled on objects, in essence helping to preserve her divine essence? I found the whole scene in Elminster Must Die Bury Elminster Deepwith the bear and everything very confusing, and I've never had a good handle on it. |
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