| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 10:13:54
In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 02 Aug 2018 : 06:41:49
Heavy crossbows that cause extra damage to Lawful and Good creatures are my staple. Add in Quarrels that have their own damage bonuses and special innate properties and Magical bonuses. Sure not as good as a wand of fireballs but as a backup weapon it works great. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Aug 2018 : 06:36:20
As I pointed out earlier in this scroll, D&D is intended to be a game and D&D is not intended to be a "realistic" combat simulation. Longbows and longswords are iconic hero weapons and they get a little too much love in the game rules - their damages seem a little disproportionate (to me) when compared to a big pointy stick which (I think) should offer a lot more killing power.
For argument's sake, in the most extreme case a longbow arrow or a javelin could fully impale a target - in one side and out the other - and basically focus all the power from one arm into a sharp penetrating point of impact - but the arrow shaft has about half the thickness of a finger while the javelin is basically a broomstick, and an arrowhead certainly has less edge on it than a spearhead. Arrows might be the faster of these two weapons, but both can fly fast enough to hit a target which doesn't want to be hit, and a javelin being used in melee would certainly pack more punch (especially if used two-handed, multiplied by the attacker's mass/momentum, somehow braced against the ground or other terrain, etc). |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 21:18:57
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
So a 0.9 lbs. (400 g) javelin
Could be done in "war" version, IMHO - with obsidian "knife" spearhead and pole of bamboo or other tough reed, or something like balsa. Armor penetration won't be good, but in warm regions there's little need for it anyway, and it can go through flesh even with modest momentum.
The only problem is that such light and useless in hand-to-hand fight javelin could as well be given fletching, and then it would count as a dart.
quote:
designed for flight distance over much longer distances than would be useful in war
No such thing.
quote:
not a ca 2 lbs. war javelin with a sharpened steel head designed to penetrate through a person.
Here we run into different niches.
Lighter stuff certainly has its uses - against mostly unarmored targets. And atlatl allows to increase range even more.
Heavier is obviously better against armor, but there are also special functions aside of the main optimization lines, like pilum or falarica.
So the Romans had at the same time:
plumbata - dart, made for range;
verutum - common javelin good for skirmishers;
pilum - heavy shield-disabling javelin and auxiliary melee spear, used as a "soften up" weapon, and later replaced with spiculum (lighter, but not much of a spear);
hasta - proper spear, used as a main weapon.
quote:
and the longer they are in flight, the easier it is for the target to simply step to the side
If the target can see them clearly and is neither a formation nor has low maneuverability (elephant, chariot).
quote:
or lift a shield.
Works well for most medium/heavy infantry, indeed.
Perhaps not so well for most cavalry or troops with two-handed weapons (such as heavy spears or polearms). Or those already busy (e.g. charging).
quote:
Javelins more frequently targeted point targets than the longbow, at least at the height of the tactical importance of longbows, at which time it was nearly exclusively an area denial weapon.
Also, for hit-and-run, whether by light infantry or chariots. It's cheap to make and quick in use.
quote:
Which results in the sharpened head being driven into bone and flesh much more easily than sport javelins can accidentally penetrate.
Well, that's the whole point.  |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 09:04:35
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
Sports Javelin in junior high school, didn't really change her sporting pursuits although she stopped the javelin. Do kids still throw javelins in school?
The Javelin thrower and my sister became best friends for years afterwards. But like most people drifted away.
So a 0.9 lbs. (400 g) javelin designed for flight distance over much longer distances than would be useful in war and to be as non-hazardous as possible while still sticking in the ground, not a ca 2 lbs. war javelin with a sharpened steel head designed to penetrate through a person.
Sports javelins can be dangerous, in the sense that in modern risk averse society anything that could possibly injure another person can be dangerous, but they are not weapons.
Tactical use of war javelins took place at ranges 33 yards (30 m) or less, mostly because it takes them over a second of flight time to get that far and the longer they are in flight, the easier it is for the target to simply step to the side or lift a shield. Javelins more frequently targeted point targets than the longbow, at least at the height of the tactical importance of longbows, at which time it was nearly exclusively an area denial weapon.
As a result of war javelins being designed for point targets inside 100', much more weight was concentrated near the head than with sport javelins. Which results in the sharpened head being driven into bone and flesh much more easily than sport javelins can accidentally penetrate. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 01 Aug 2018 : 00:14:56
Sports Javelin in junior high school, didn't really change her sporting pursuits although she stopped the javelin. Do kids still throw javelins in school?
The Javelin thrower and my sister became best friends for years afterwards. But like most people drifted away. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 14:45:49
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
My sister took a javelin to the leg in school.
Did it end her career as an adventurer?  |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 14:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There are practical limits to the velocity you can achieve with bows made from real-world materials. There is a sweet spot in projectile weight where you minimise the inefficiency of the energy transfer from bow to projectile. Heavier, higher draw bows, whether these are crossbows or not, need to shoot heavier projectiles. If they do not, you'll simply waste the extra draw weight, as the thick bow limbs and string will dissipate much of the energy, as the projectile was not heavy enough to compensate.
Aside of energy, a bow's arms move at limited speed even without arrow, because the material has significant mass and "viscosity". Which is why plastic bows can launch the same (light enough) arrows at greater speed than wooden with the same pull.
Spring grade alloys have negligible viscosity compared to wood, but much greater mass and better (at least force-wise) deformation limits.
Composite bows change the nature of "bending" tension, but in this case recurving is more important.
And below maximum possible speed, there's maximum safe speed, i.e. if you "dry fire" a bow or ballista, it will be damaged by hard stops, and very soon break or tear.
Also, there's an issue of ballistics: a heavier projectile is more stable, and harder to stop.
And you want more energy in the first place exactly to improve range or penetration.
Because if neither was an issue, it would be better to set pull at "just enough to do the job" (for the intended target and range) and reduce reload time, along with size, mass and most likely price. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 13:08:37
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
My sister took a javelin to the leg in school. It didn't penetrate the bone but it penetrated right up to it. It depends where you get hit. Stomach hit, The javelin is going to do a lot of damage. The Arrow is going to penetrate bone better also noted the type of head, broad head will mess up skin but not penetrate bone much. Arrows rotate and travel further faster. But don't carry much weight. A javelin rotates slowly weighs lots and penetrates skin but not bone. Solid armour would work great on javelins and broad headed arrows, the long bow adds extra power and rotation though.
Was the javelin your sister took a real war javelin with a sharpened steel head or was it a sports javelin?
Because if it was the latter, the proper comparison would be with a toy arrow.
Real war javelins, just as war arrows, can penetrate a lot of flesh and a fair number of bones. You can probably find videos of people shooting pig carcasses with war arrows and if you are lucky, you can find videos where they throw javelins at them. Both war arrows and war javelins go through a pig carcass when they hit at the velocities that warriors would shoot/throw them.
That being said, however, neither arrows nor javelins will penetrate proper armour. Just doesn't happen. Competently made mail with padding will make you functionally immune to arrows, unless they hit where the armour is not. I've seen tests where war javelins would penetrate mail to a depth of 13 cm, which is both a lot better than war arrows can do and might be enough to kill a person, but that was without proper padding.
With padding, I'm not convinced that the javelin would have penetrated, but I'd still rather be shot with an arrow than hit with a war javelin, if I was wearing armour. Less chance of penetration and, once it doesn't penetrate, a lot less momentum to worry about, which is what bruises and breaks ribs through armour.
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
A Crossbow is better yet. Difference between a light and heavy crossbow is the propulsion not the quarrel.
No.
At least not if you are talking about an actual, physical crossbow that obeys the rules of physics. There are practical limits to the velocity you can achieve with bows made from real-world materials. There is a sweet spot in projectile weight where you minimise the inefficiency of the energy transfer from bow to projectile. Heavier, higher draw bows, whether these are crossbows or not, need to shoot heavier projectiles. If they do not, you'll simply waste the extra draw weight, as the thick bow limbs and string will dissipate much of the energy, as the projectile was not heavy enough to compensate.
A light crossbow and a heavy crossbow, assuming both are designed for warfare, will reach about the same velocity, which will be near the maximum possible for the materials before you start reaching major diminishing returns. The heavy crossbow will just shoot a much heavier bolt. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 12:29:32
My sister took a javelin to the leg in school. It didn't penetrate the bone but it penetrated right up to it. It depends where you get hit. Stomach hit, The javelin is going to do a lot of damage. The Arrow is going to penetrate bone better also noted the type of head, broad head will mess up skin but not penetrate bone much. Arrows rotate and travel further faster. But don't carry much weight. A javelin rotates slowly weighs lots and penetrates skin but not bone. Solid armour would work great on javelins and broad headed arrows, the long bow adds extra power and rotation though.
Try throwing an arrow, it is next to useless. If you propel a javelin (ballista) it is going to be better.
A Crossbow is better yet. Difference between a light and heavy crossbow is the propulsion not the quarrel. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 10:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?
It's a broad-headed arrow.
If you want javelin to be more of a decent weapon, use PO:C&T, where it allows charge-throw and as Medium weapon tend to roll greater Severity for critical hits. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 02:39:02
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If'n y'all gonna be like that...
You can shoot down an AH-64D Apache Longbow with a FGM-148 Javelin, but considering the range and velocity difference between the Javelin and am AGM-114 Hellfire, not to mention what a 20mm round or two from the M230 chain gun will do to you within much of the performance envelope of the Javelin, I sure as shootin' wouldn't volunteer for that there job.
Nicely done. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 00:26:10
If'n y'all gonna be like that...
You can shoot down an AH-64D Apache Longbow with a FGM-148 Javelin, but considering the range and velocity difference between the Javelin and am AGM-114 Hellfire, not to mention what a 30mm round or two from the M230 chain gun will do to you within much of the performance envelope of the Javelin, I sure as shootin' wouldn't volunteer for that there job. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 23:38:51
I suppose it could be called a Tiefling. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 15:03:49
There's a lot of mechs I like better than the Longbow... But I was kinda-sorta staying on topic, here, with comparing the Longbow and the Javelin. |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 15:00:41
Prefer the Hellspawn Medium Mech with MDM 40 pack and a pair of Medium Pulse Lasers. Jump Jets and Blazer Armour. Triple Strength Myomers. ECM etc... 225 standard engine. 5-8-5/6-9.
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 10:01:49
Increase the javelin and short Spears damage by one die when thrown within 10 feet of a Target |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 09:34:29
I loved my thunderbolt with expanded heat sinks and 13 small lasers. I would charge up to the closest heavy much and unload every laser and keep doing it until i shutdown from the heat or he died. It was a surprisingly effective tactic, I once took out an atlas (with a bit of help).
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 09:27:13
(Good old Panther, Thunderbolt-S, and Victor were always my favourite mechs in a fight. But the Black Knight always wins my vote for style.)
Back to Javelins ... D&D seems to neglect the fact that while javelins are shorter than a full spear (two-handed, 8'-12' long, pretty much the same thing as an awl/pike polearm), they're still basically a 6'-8' long throwing weapon, more or less the biggest spear you could realistically throw with any accuracy. And javelin throwing has been a traditional sport since ancient times ...
I'd suggest that javelins - like longbow arrows - also come in 1d6 ("flight") and 1d8 ("killing") varieties. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 03:06:40
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll take a Longbow over a Javelin any day. Neither BattleMech is all that nice to look at, though the Project Phoenix Longbow is pretty cool. Plus, 85 tons and all those LRMs (2 15s and 2 20s!), as opposed to 30 tons and a pair of SRM6s? No contest.
We were talking about BattleTech, right?
I knew without even looking that it had to be Wooly making this comment. 
I did not remember this discussion... So I came in intending to make that same joke I made 2 years ago! |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 02:27:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll take a Longbow over a Javelin any day. Neither BattleMech is all that nice to look at, though the Project Phoenix Longbow is pretty cool. Plus, 85 tons and all those LRMs (2 15s and 2 20s!), as opposed to 30 tons and a pair of SRM6s? No contest.
We were talking about BattleTech, right?
I knew without even looking that it had to be Wooly making this comment. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 01:35:15
Some other things to bear in mind. From horseback, a javelin can be pulled and hurled with one hand while the other hand holds the stirrup and/or protects with a shield. Also, while its not reflected in the rules very well, the momentum of the charging horse would be applied to any javelin hurled from horseback. Also, javelins are reusable, versus bows for which you have to provide the arrows. Now, I know there's magical ways to get around this and carry hundreds of arrows, and arrows are made to be cheap as well in the game, but I tend to think that has more to do with gamers truly not wanting to keep track of arrow usage. In the end, each has reasons for their use in the real world, but this isn't reflected well in the game, much as how the effectiveness of spears and pikes versus swords isn't well reflected (though 3.5e was getting close to it with attacks of opportunity on people closing on someone with a reach weapon, etc..). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 29 Jul 2018 : 21:10:27
Arrows from warbows achieve three to four times the velocity of javelins. Javelins used in war, in turn, are about twenty times the weight of typical arrow and at least five times the weight of the heaviest arrow, at 1.25-3 lbs. for typical javelins and 0.06-0.25 lbs. for arrows. There are lighter darts than that thrown in the same manner as javelins, but I wouldn't call those the same weapon and wouldn't use the same stats, any more than I would use the same stats for light flight arrows and heavy war arrows.
That means two things. First, the kinetic energy of war arrows is generally lower than that of war javelins, but very high draw weight bows can shoot war arrows at enough velocity to exceed the kinetic energy of typical javelins. Second, unless we are assuming a much stronger archer than javelineer, the heavier projectile will always handily beat the arrow in terms of momentum, because we run into diminishing returns trying to push the velocity above certain limits.
Now, what some people don't realise is that kinetic energy is not as important for the wounding equations of low energy penetrators as it is for higher energy impacts. Momentum is usually much more predictive of how deep a sharp penetrator moving at 400 fps or less will penetrate through typical historical armour, flesh, bone and organs.
Translation, war javelins do at least the same damage as war arrows from any kind of bow, and probably ought to be better at wounding. |
| Madpig |
Posted - 29 Aug 2016 : 08:48:29
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?
Regarding the range that nobody commented yet, you must remember one thing: Bow is mass weapon. I mean olympic archers shoot at 50m max, and they are best specialists around with much better bows than any compositebow there might be in FR. Yes, English longbow had max range of 250m, but it depended on 100+ men to shoot at once. I am fair shot with traditional longbow,and I can shoot groups of 1m at 15m. And thats when im relaxed. So, factor in that someone is trying to shoot you with spells or arrows... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Aug 2016 : 04:21:25
I'll take a Longbow over a Javelin any day. Neither BattleMech is all that nice to look at, though the Project Phoenix Longbow is pretty cool. Plus, 85 tons and all those LRMs (2 15s and 2 20s!), as opposed to 30 tons and a pair of SRM6s? No contest.
We were talking about BattleTech, right? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Aug 2016 : 03:40:30
D&D is a game, of course, not a combat simulator. Damage allocations (along with the entirely vague notion of hit points) are highly arbitrary. I think that longswords and longbows get a lot of special love in D&D simply because they are iconic (and very elfy) hero weapons. A javelin does 1d6, comparable to a shortsword, not entirely unreasonable.
Thrown javelins might put a bigger hole in you but arrows tend to travel much faster and, I think, could penetrate deeper into flesh. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Aug 2016 : 03:21:32
in 2nd edition, there were very complex systems that you COULD use if you wanted that dealt with damage for missile weapons that calculated variable damages based on various factors (range, target size, wound type, etc). I never saw them actually used however - too complicated and time consuming. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 17:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?
If it's any solace, in AD&D2 bow has speed factor 8 vs javelin's 4, and with battle arrows that do 1d8/1d8 a bow has reduced range, while with flight arrows it's the same 1d6/1d6.
PO also applies bonus from charge to thrown weapons: the attacker may charge into 10-20' of the target for +2 to attack.
Or use throwing spear - 1d6/1d8, at the cost of range. But if a spear-caster is available (Maztica), it does 2x damage at short and medium range (which are doubled).
The main trade-off, of course, is that primitive thrown weapons require only one generic skill to make (weaponsmith), while bows require the same (for the arrowheads) plus a single-purpose skill (even after conflation into bowyer/fletcher), and javelins are dirt-cheap compared to any bow. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 16:23:34
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If the dice difference bothers you, I'd say to just change the javelin to d8. It's just +1 dmg on average, it won't break anything.
Absolutely. The rules are not set in stone and can be manipulated to a certain degree. I like to think of them more as a general guideline. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 14:51:10
Javelins tend to be havier than arrows, tho. If the dice difference bothers you, I'd say to just change the javelin to d8. It's just +1 dmg on average, it won't break anything. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 14:48:43
You could get the same strength bonus from using a bow. |
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