| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Aug 2016 : 10:19:52
So, Brian R. James wrote this in the Grand History of the realms under the entry of -31500 DR
-31500: Legacy of the Batrachi
The following mind-read is from a thrall captured in the tunnels beneath Andalbruin in the Year of the Tankard (1370 DR).It was later subsumed into the greater consciousness of the God-Brain of Oryndoll.
"Understand, Meat, that I am quite familiar with your feeble kind. My people ruled the whole of Merrouroboros while your ancestors cowered in caves and banged rocks together to create fire. My own domain was vast, stretching from the depths of the Black Sea in the north to the fiery peaks of Lopango in the south. You know not these lands because the fool Zhoukoudien threw our empire away in an imprudent conflict with the Jotunbrud.
When the seven-turn winter later blanketed our lands with ice, I retreated with many of my kind to the otherworldly realm of Limbo, where we established a kingdom that your sages call the Supreme Throne. It was there that our race was once again transformed by Ramenos to serve his divine purpose. Many of your ignorant kind mistakenly confuse my people with the slaad, who make their home on the same plane. In fact, I am a batrachi lord—far more powerful than any common fiend.
But let us return to the task at hand. The agenda of your Lord Kossuth is not so different from my own. Fire burns in both our hearts, and together we can scatter the armies of your enemies and sow chaos throughout the land. Speak now the rite of unbinding, and you can command power greater than that of any pathetic zulkir. All shall bow before the Order of the Black Flame and tremble before the fury of the Firebringer."
So, I know that the Lopango is "the Land of Fire" that's on the southeastern tip of Maztica. I'm also reading the above and it sounds almost exactly like the words of Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer.
Now, in addition to this, I've been researching Maztica. Certain of their deities almost seem like the elemental lords. For instance, Tezca (a sacrifice hungry god of fire that the natives also equate with the sun, with a link to lizards and snakeskin) seems like it could be Kossuth. Azul (a sacrifice hungry god of rain, with a link to fish and frogs) seems like it could be Istishia. Plutoq (depicted as a being of stone) seems like it could be Grumbar. Eha (depicted as a formless being of smoke) seems like it could be Akadi. Granted, many cultures have gods of the elements. Now, here's where I see another link that's coming out in the novels. Zaltec, the "God of War and Eater of Hearts", is being fed sacrificed hearts to power "The Darkfyre", which has some ties to volcanos (and the long ago bursting of the underdark tunnels to fill with lava that separated Maztica from Faerun). Given what I'm hearing above about the Lopango and Bazim-Gorag.... I half wonder if Zaltec isn't Bazim-Gorag. It seems kind of odd as well, a pantheon essentially with 2 fire beings. Throw in that the Thayans have a Kossuthan Cult of Black Flame Zealots which is a group of assassins... I half wonder if that group doesn't possibly also have some hidden ties to Bazim-Gorag and his cult of the Hidden Flame (one of its leaders is a follower of Kossuth). |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 01:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Mmm... I remember having read about that, now that you mention it. That was because of Helm and some goddess, right? I cannot remember now were I read that...
It was "said" that he killed Helm in a fit of rage, because he thought Helm (who was playing the role of "chaperone" for Tyr) was hitting on the woman that Tyr wanted (that being Tymora). Which, I totally hear that and go
TYR: "ok.... we gotta tell our priests something about why you're not answering their prayers "
HELM: "How about I leave because you're hitting on my woman"
TYR: "Nah, that makes me look bad... how about I kick your ass because you're hitting on my woman and trying to cuckold me"
HELM: "Whatever. I just want to get this over with and go fight some giants." |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2017 : 01:25:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for Tyr, he was killed while fighting an invasion of demons to mount Celestia in the Empyrean Odyssey novels, so there is canon proof that sealing Cyric did nothing to those gods (Cyric is not as powerful, or influential, or important as he likes to think... he is a young god, why sealing him would damage an elder god in any meaningful way? Heck, for gods like Tyr, Cyric is just a toddler...).
If they disappeared or changed, it was for other stuffs.
His non-godly form was killed fighting an invasion of demons. He had "given up" his godly powers at that point. So, in essence, what was left was some kind of powerful immortal being, but no longer a god.
So like the Old Empire's 'Manifestations', or those things that were working around during the ToT.
Less even than that. He could no longer have clerics, paladins, etc... Manifestations could still grant spells. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 19:27:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for Tyr, he was killed while fighting an invasion of demons to mount Celestia in the Empyrean Odyssey novels, so there is canon proof that sealing Cyric did nothing to those gods (Cyric is not as powerful, or influential, or important as he likes to think... he is a young god, why sealing him would damage an elder god in any meaningful way? Heck, for gods like Tyr, Cyric is just a toddler...).
If they disappeared or changed, it was for other stuffs.
His non-godly form was killed fighting an invasion of demons. He had "given up" his godly powers at that point. So, in essence, what was left was some kind of powerful immortal being, but no longer a god.
So like the Old Empire's 'Manifestations', or those things that were working around during the ToT. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 15:03:16
Mmm... I remember having read about that, now that you mention it. That was because of Helm and some goddess, right? I cannot remember now were I read that... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 12:00:48
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for Tyr, he was killed while fighting an invasion of demons to mount Celestia in the Empyrean Odyssey novels, so there is canon proof that sealing Cyric did nothing to those gods (Cyric is not as powerful, or influential, or important as he likes to think... he is a young god, why sealing him would damage an elder god in any meaningful way? Heck, for gods like Tyr, Cyric is just a toddler...).
If they disappeared or changed, it was for other stuffs.
His non-godly form was killed fighting an invasion of demons. He had "given up" his godly powers at that point. So, in essence, what was left was some kind of powerful immortal being, but no longer a god. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 03:10:40
As for Tyr, he was killed while fighting an invasion of demons to mount Celestia in the Empyrean Odyssey novels, so there is canon proof that sealing Cyric did nothing to those gods (Cyric is not as powerful, or influential, or important as he likes to think... he is a young god, why sealing him would damage an elder god in any meaningful way? Heck, for gods like Tyr, Cyric is just a toddler...).
If they disappeared or changed, it was for other stuffs. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Oct 2017 : 02:00:05
Now you have me thinking that this 'out of sync' thing with Abeir is because it was in another universe, not just plane or dimension.
So putting that together with all the other stuff I've been pasting together lately, what if 'Abeir' was 'phased out' of the normal universe, which has been overwriting the Elderverse - and into the 'Far Realms' (what is left of the Elderverse with our universe growing on top of it).
I'm not sure what that would do for us, other than explain why the aboleths had such a strong presence there. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 14:52:22
Yes, we very much both seem to be looking at similar things all the time. I think that's because we read each other's stuff and it feeds ideas, then we google stuff and read more of the same stuff.
I honestly don't know WHAT they were and I'm kind of leaning towards making it vague now. Part of me says draconic, part says reptilian with all the snake references, but then there's also birds/feathers, then now there's humans. I pretty much picture them adapting to whatever beings will worship them (or possibly being adapted BY their worship). However, what I'm kind of trying to do now is come up with a somewhat vague but reasonable explanation for the gods that disappeared during the spellplague to have disappeared.
For instance, when Mystra II died and Ubtao disappeared... and "the dark sun" was imprisoned away by Tyr (who lost his "god"ness), Lathander (who disappeared), and Sune... did something happen. For instance, did those gods lose their "godliness" in order to imprison the "dark sun" Cyric? For all we know, Sune hasn't truly been Sune for the last century and could have been someone like Hanali Celanil posing as her. In another thread I was positing that Tyr, Lathander, and Talos may all truly have linkages to Maztica. Honestly, I've thought the same thing about Sune and Kiltzi... that maybe Sune came over from Maztica. I know we all picture her as other goddesses (Freya, Venus, etc...), but the WHO doesn't matter. What might make for a good realms story is that the three realms gods who imprisoned Cyric "the dark sun", all had to give up their godhood to do so, and thus saved the world.... but they were sucked over to Abeir. While in Abeir, they started posing as other entities (which again, leave vague, but the fun is positing the theories, such that in game there would be differing views between cultures), and thus when they come back they can again subsume their old roles.
I guess the question I have is did these beings start in the elemental chaos or the astral sea or the Far Realm or the Feywild. I'm leaning towards elemental chaos, as they for the most part seem "physical entities". |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Oct 2017 : 06:54:33
Weird, because I just noticed the same thing about five days ago. You and I are always running in tandem, its seems.
But I still stand by my idea that the Maztican pantheon was the draconic one with human aliases.
Of course, it seems at least some of the elder draconic Gods were primordials after all - probably at least Io. Thus, both our ways of thinking make sense, if Drækons (Cosmic dragons) are primordials, then the Maztican pantheon can be both at the same time.
BTW, in my etymology musings, I have it where 'Drækon' actually means 'being of immense power and destructive force' in some Elder Celestial tongue, so even though the Powers were called that, it doesn't mean they really had to look like how we picture them. Probably one of the first races to encounter terrestrial dragons were elves, and they named them that, because Fae (the spoken form of Hamafae, or 'High Fey') is directly related to that same celestial language (which I think I just called it 'Selestial' in another thread, for simplicity sake. Think of it as the 'Latin' of the Gods). LOL
When 4e first came around, I had that idea immediately - that my concept of 'Draækon' was just a specific type of primordial. I haven't been throwing that term around the past few years because I had 'primordial' now, which works fine. But I'm bringing it back, because now I am working on 'Primal Cliques' (proto-pantheons), and just as the Seldarine were a 'club' of Estelar, the Drækons were a group of Primordials.
And at the end of the day, all of them were just 'Gods'.
Also, in other threads I talked about how 'The Serpent' is a vestige-avatar of the slumbering Ahriman (my 'fix' to some of the Guide to Hell lore that doesn't work anymore). Its a much-reduced in power version of Ahriman. So, I figure Jazirian has the same thing going on, except its vestige-avatar (a product of its subconscious) is Qutol/Quetzalcoatl. I think Jazirian and Ahriman were two of the very first primordials (that I dubbed Eldermentals elsewhere), along with Io. Its a somewhat new category i'm adding - I read some lore that some primordials preexisted the Estealr, and 'came about naturally', which didn't work in my old model. Only the Estelar should have appeared spontaneously. Apparently, while the D&Dverse was expanding and gobbling-up the Elderverse (Far Realms), some giant globs of matter and energy (cosmic-sized chunks of the Elemental Xaos) were left-behind, and formed into these earliest of primordials.
EDIT:
And I have it where Ahriman is Angra Mainyu (which he IS), that means Jazirian should be Ahura Mazda - the primal 'twin spirits' which created the universe in Zoroastrianism (but we can just say "they meant the Great wheel", and it all works out). They were created by 'Zurvan' (Time). Now I have Kronos as my 'time God', who really doesn't bother with any of the others and never takes sides in any wars. An old theory of mine was that Kronos = Chronepsis, which I dropped some time ago, but I may now bring back. If Chronepsis is Kronos (my version), and kronos = 'time', than I have a Primordial dragon (one of my Sidereals - the most ancient of ancient powers) giving birth to Jazirian and Ahriman - two other dragons... and it all works out perfectly.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 18:06:41
Yes, I very much agree on the part that they don't seem to be port overs of the actual religions. They lose a LOT of their areas of control as listed in a lot of this stuff and get shoved down to god of X (because previously they were gods of a ton of stuff that seems to have no real guidelines). Also, they are ALL shown in our world's mythology as having the sacrifices with the heart removed and body cast down the ziggurat. However, knowing something of "where they came from" at least for me has opened my eyes to a lot of real world myths that I never heard of previously. It is interesting how so many of them have a story where the earth is made from the body of something they killed (for instance, similar to Ymir), and this repeats into the Oceanic mythologies as well. However, what they kill is vastly different (for instance, these Aztec stories have a giant crocodile/fish name cipactli with a bunch of mouths that actually bites off Tezcatlipocas foot.... and then these 4 godly brothers fashion the earth from its body).
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 14:58:53
I'm not expert in Mexican mythology (the mythology of my country is the Muisca/Chibcha  ), but here is what I do know (thanks to Seethyr's stuff he shared in DMs Guild, I do know a few stuff about Maztica):
Maztican gods seem to have similarities with Aztec gods and you can usually identify them to a specific god (Qotal = Quetzalcoatl), but Maztican gods tend to have a more diversified "Area of Influence" compared to the Aztec gods, who usually have one "porfolio" (in D&D terms). My point is that you can say that while the Maztican pantheon is inspired by Aztec mythology is not synonymous with it. The gods of Maztica aren't just Aztec gods with name changes, they are their own thing. They seem to be a simplified version, though, with strong parallels with Aztec gods.
That said, Qotal is obviously analogous to Quetzalcoatl, Zaltec is analogous to Huitzilopochtli, Tezca is analogous to Tezcatlipoca, and Azul seems to be basically Tlaloc. Maztica is similar to Coatlicue. The others are harder, though, because the "broader area of influence".
Kukul is roughly analogous to Camaxtli or Ometeotl, or maybe is combination of both. Plutoq can be Cinteotl in his fertility aspect. Kiltzi seems to be a combination of Centeotl, Xochiquetzal, and to some degree Chalchihuitlicue and Tlazolteotl. Eha can be compared with Metzli, while Watil is like a fusion of Xochiquetzal and Centeotl. Nula's portfolio includes Metzli's patronage of animal growth. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Oct 2017 : 13:56:17
cast thread necromancy level 1
So, this is pretty sad. I've known there's some kind of linkage between Kukulkan, Quetzalcoatal, and Jazirian. Then I knew that Kukul is meant to be Kukulkan, who is also represented as a winged serpent, which is what Qotal is (which appears to be a shortening of Quetzalcoatl)... and yet Ubtao also appears to be Qotal... who may be Jazirian... round and round it goes...
Anyway, what I had NOT realized is that one of the OTHER deities of the Maztican Pantheon appears to also be related to a real world deity. I just realized it when I looked at the old 1st edition deities and demigods. Tezca, god of the sun and fire, would appear to be Tezcatlipoca... a central American god of the sun who appears in jaguar form. He is the traditional enemy of Quetzalcoatl. In fact, Tezca and Zaltec would almost appear to be two parts of the same being somehow split out. It also makes both Tezca and Zaltec both possible "cat folk" deities.
So, what I'm wondering now is have I missed any other real world linkages where the writers for Maztica shortened or obfuscated a name? Just to help this, here's the list of those deities.
Azul (also called Calor): God of rain, water, drunkenness
Eha: Goddess of the wind, spring
Kiltzi: God of health, love, happiness, children
Maztica: Goddess of life and the physical world, grants power despite being dead
Nula: Goddess of animals
Plutoq: God of earth, stone, mountains
Qotal: God of goodness, health, protection
Tezca: God of the sun, fire, cooking
Watil: Goddess of plants
Zaltec: God of war, sacrifice
and even as I write all this up, I'm seeing some deity "Xipe Totec" in real world mythology who sounds a lot like Zaltec (and I can see the corruption of the name becoming Zaltec). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Aug 2016 : 00:52:38
Hmmmm, another take on all this. The Tabaxi of Chult are humans. Presumably then the Tabaxi who went to Chult in -2809 DR were also human. It would seem that probably at some point between -2809 DR and current day some of these Tabaxi came to Maztica and were transformed into the jaguar people known in Maztica (specifically Payit, which was notably a Qotal strong area). I'm picturing some kind of powerful Hishna ritual which transformed them as a people. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Aug 2016 : 13:17:39
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Nice sleuthing Sleyvas. I’ve always been fond of Maztica and I’m happy to see others pulling some of the lore threads I left behind.
Thanks Brian. I'm liking some of the concepts I'm seeing with the people doing Maztica Alive! (I know Seethyr was one). However, IF these beings were Primordials (which it looks like they were), then when they transferred to Abeir, I suspect that all of their clerics would have still been getting spells. It doesn't heavily impact what they've put out, but if I write something up on the outer edges of what they've developed, I may take that into account.
Hey, BTW, have there EVER been any kind of maps that you are aware of of Katashaka in an official capacity? |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 30 Aug 2016 : 06:04:02
Nice sleuthing Sleyvas. I’ve always been fond of Maztica and I’m happy to see others pulling some of the lore threads I left behind. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 21:41:12
Hmmmmm, looks like I may have hit the nail on the head with Ubtao being Qotal. Qotal is known as the Feathered Dragon. The below is from the GHotR by Brian R. James. It would appear that he left Katashaka on -2809 DR. It basically calls Ubtao the Feathered Serpent. If this is true, and Ubtao is a primordial per recent lore, that also implies that his kin are also primordials. I know its not Canon, but "the Grand History of the True World" which is up on DM's Guild has Qotal leaving Maztica at a later date and this -2809 DR is before he rapes his sister, Kiltzi. If I accept this as canon (which I will, as I like the work they're doing), then this means Qotal/Ubtao was building a society in Chult long before he left Maztica to return to Chult.
-2809 DR: Pilgrimage of the Tabaxi
Not long thereafter, Ecatzin entered our lands to spread the word of Ubtao. At first, most Tabaxi shunned the feathered serpent because they feared that he was an agent of Akongo—a perfidious nyama-nummo from the southern highlands. In time, however, Ecatzin taught words to the Tabaxi— and to a chosen few, he also taught matumbe—the forbidden magic. But the millennium end was nigh upon us, and most still feared the Sleeper’s return. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 15:52:23
Actually, as I think on it more.... the "manifestations" of Mulhorand and Unther even COULD actually be seen as a variation on Primordial beings as well. Though most Primordials are seen more as "elemental" type beings. What if the manifestations of the Mulhorandi deities didn't get absorbed/ascending to the heavens following the Time of Troubles. What if they were actually sent by Ao over to Abeir, and they simply spent the next 28 years secretly spying on the surrounding world and planning for when their lands transferred. This may even be WHY Mulhorand was directed by the gods to invade and conquer Unther. Hmmmm, probably want to think on this more. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 15:44:20
Hmmmm, actually, yeah, it might make more sense if Qotal and Kiltzi both were also Primordials. In fact, we know Ubtao is a primordial. We know that he left and called his people from the jungles of Katashaka (right near Maztica) to Chult. It might make sense if Qotal is in fact Ubtao (actually very much so, given Ubtao is a god of jungle folk as well).
Someone also created a third party DMs Guild piece (so non-canon) for Maztica that is for the Lopango, the land of fire, area that was never detailed by TSR (but they call this area, Lopango, Land of the Sacred Sun). They don't make any of these ties to Bazim-Gorag from GHotR, and they pursue a slightly different path. In it they offer up another pantheon which very much resembles the Maztican pantheon (they even state that it is the same pantheon with different names and less of these deities). This pantheon pretty much consist of Kukul (Virachoa), Maztica (Mama Carocha), and Intiri (a sun deity who initially I thought was supposed to be another name for Qotal... but now I think not). I suspect that Kukul and Maztica died at the hands of Zaltec, Intiri (the sun god of the Lopango) divorced himself and his people from the rest of the Maztican pantheon. Its probably at this point that Tezca (Kossuth) obtained the sun portfolio, and started using it to obtain sacrifices. Intiri continued to live in an immortal form in the holy city of Pichu Umu with his sun priests, and his people live in the nearby city of Mount Cuzcalac. So, this Intiri sounds like a Primordial as well.... quite possibly Lathander, if there is an unknown secret to the rest of the realms that Lathander is actually a Primordial... and could explain his absence in the intervening years between the spellplague and sundering. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 28 Aug 2016 : 08:49:55
some of them might be primal spirits if that term is still in use...... but then some of them might be true gods |
| Gyor |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 20:02:19
I'd simplify it, just make all of them Primordials.
The love "Goddess" could be of a more Primal love, like really the Primordial of Attraction, not just Romantic Attraction, but also more elemental forms of attraction like molecules attracting each other, mascarading in a form more of interest to humans, a love goddess. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 18:45:01
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and also the part where these "deities" weren't cast down during the ToT, just like from the old 2nd edition FR Adventures where it noted "During the
Time of Troubles, none of the elemental lords were spotted in the Realms."
Granted, that could be explained away as Ao didn't want to punish these... or Ao doesn't control this pantheon... or something else even.
Or it could be that they all picked uninhabited areas and just sat tight. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 16:46:03
Oh, and also the part where these "deities" weren't cast down during the ToT, just like from the old 2nd edition FR Adventures where it noted "During the
Time of Troubles, none of the elemental lords were spotted in the Realms."
Granted, that could be explained away as Ao didn't want to punish these... or Ao doesn't control this pantheon... or something else even. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 14:51:53
I'm actually not a big fan of deific consolidation, but something here is drawing me to it. That being said I'm also not against it in certain situations.
I'll also throw in here that the idea of them being Primordials could kind of fit with the fact that Maztica was one of the places transferred to Abeir. Also, Maztica is often called "the True World". Also, these "deities" are more interested in the blood sacrifice, even if its their own worshippers, than anything else. Its almost like they're reaping soul energy... which almost sounds like Primordials/Titans. Throw in that Qotal is suddenly returning after the ToT, and he had previously "fled" this land in his great canoe to go east... it could fit that he was an actual god who left the area out of fear (or in compliance with Ao's will).
Now, there are certain deities of Maztica that don't fit the Primordial mold. Maztica herself (the mother goddess) may or may not have been, but she's dead (slain by Zaltec). Kukul (the father) as well could go either way, but he also "shattered in undying despair" when Zaltec slew Maztica. Kiltzi though seems more like a goddess (she's a goddess of love). However, the story goes that Qotal (possible god) and Zaltec (possible primordial) fought after Zaltec killed Qotal's mother Maztica. All the gods that I say may be Primordials joined with Zaltec (minus Eha... but I note Eha is specifically not called out as related) , and the other sister gods (Kiltzi, Watil, and Nula) joined with Qotal.
Qotal wins this fight, and he cast down Zaltec. Time passes, and he becomes "in need of love" and he rapes his sister Kiltzi then "goes to sleep". This is where I'm kind of going "the winners write the outcome", because it doesn't really fit his persona. Kiltzi then flees "the true world" as well. So, I half wonder if both of these deities weren't chased off. The remaining 2 girl deities (the goddess of plants and goddess of animals) then "flee to the protection of Zaltec". Zaltec then basically forces humans to start committing human sacrifice (because they accept nothing less).
Both Qotal and Kiltzi are still worshipped in Maztica despite having left. Since it does specify that Qotal went to Faerun, I have to wonder which deity he is (by his story he seems a lot like Lathander). Kiltzi could fit several deities (Chauntea, Sune, etc...) .
Obviously, there could be a lot of other spins on this... For instance, Kukul / Maztica could correspond to Annam / Othea with Tezca and Azul corresponding to their fire and frost giant children and Lanaxis corresponding to Zaltec as the killer of Othea.... in this scenario Qotal and Kiltzi don't really fit in as children of Othea and Annam though and it feels a little forced. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Aug 2016 : 22:40:49
Like those of Kara-Tur, the maztica gods are just another pantheon, of which there are many. Write ups were in one of the old 1st E books if recall.
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| Gyor |
Posted - 26 Aug 2016 : 20:40:15
You make a solid aurguement for the Mazetica Pantheon being mostly or all Primordials. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 26 Aug 2016 : 18:31:25
I think that's a cool idea and it makes sense. I like the idea of consolidating some the goods into a single deity, so Gruumsh and Talos being the same being as they were in 4E or making Urogalan an alias of Dumathoin. That I like having lot of options, but some the various gods seem almost identical. In addition to the ones I noted above, there are all the loyalty/sentinel deities starting with Helm and going through most the demihuman pantheons.
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