| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KismetRose |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 15:48:07
A good while ago, I was searching for a map that would show the basic borders of the ancient kingdoms of Narfell and Raumathar, particularly when they were at their height. I was especially interested in where they were in the land that would become Thay later on.
The map in Lost Empires only gave a general idea of where the centers of the empires were, with no defined borders.
I threw something together for my own use but I've always wondered if such maps exist. Even if they're not on the same map, it would be nice to see them. Does anyone here know if such maps exist and where I might find them? Thanks in advance! |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 03:02:25
quote:
Originally posted by KismetRose
As far as I recall, what is now Thay did become Mulhorandi territory eventually (which is why Mulhorand re-christened Kensten; they were moving in on territory the old empires had lost when they were destroyed). I have also read that Thay is host to both Narfell and Raumathari ruins (I believe in Unapproachable East), which is why I figure the empires met in the middle in Thay and likely squabbled over it. I just wanted to know where the different types of ruins were likely to be found, which is why I traced what info I could find and did my best to guess the boundaries from there.
Not disputing that. Just questioning HOW MUCH of modern day Thay was actually subsumed by Mulhorand. We have a tendency to assume that borders are static, when in fact, Mulhorand may have only held half of what present day Thay controls, etc... If they only held the lower coastal half, it would have included Bezantur. Nothing says that they held the Thaymount or where Eltabbar is, for instance. It may have been a "slightly settled territory" with little actual governmental oversight (if any). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 22:44:40
Champions of Ruin (p.130) description of Eltab have some information on this area. It says that Raumathar and Narfell contested control of Priador and that Eltab invaded and conquered Rashemen for Narfell.
If we presume that demoncysts were only under the land claimed by Narfell than there is a record of them under Damara, Implitur, Priador, Thesk and Vaasa (and of course Narfell itself). Vaasa was not mentioned by you but there are clear signs of demon activity for long time so I would say that it was also part of Narfell in that time. |
| KismetRose |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 22:05:07
Now that I dig a bit deeper, all of that sounds right. Thanks for the wrap up! =)
Borders can be fluid but still have some general consistency. I don't know that I'd expect to see many of Narfell's ruins in the Sunrise Mountains, for instance, given that they were closer to Raumathari territory. That's just me, though. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 21:08:05
Im pretty sure i covered the history of Thay in my Alternate Dimensions projects (number 4 or 5 i think).
If i recall it correctly Thay was part of Mulhorand initially while the Wizards Reach was Unther. Then the orcgate opened and the old empires had to hire Narfell and Raunathar to deal with the orcs.
Narfell then invaded and took Thay from the orcs before trying to launch an invasion fleet at Mulhorand.
Raumathar then conquered Narfell occupied Thay while Narfell was busy losing its fleet and loads of troops to the combined might of the Old Empires.
Then all out war broke out between the two and in the end Raumathar summomed the Urthor which burned everything in Thay.
In the aftermath Mulhorand fought a war with the left over fiends in Thay to occupy that land.
At least i think thats how it went. I used every resource available to map out the history of Thay (and add in a few extras). Borders should be a fluid concept, and Narfell and Raumathar are good examples why. |
| KismetRose |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 20:41:31
As far as I recall, what is now Thay did become Mulhorandi territory eventually (which is why Mulhorand re-christened Kensten; they were moving in on territory the old empires had lost when they were destroyed). I have also read that Thay is host to both Narfell and Raumathari ruins (I believe in Unapproachable East), which is why I figure the empires met in the middle in Thay and likely squabbled over it. I just wanted to know where the different types of ruins were likely to be found, which is why I traced what info I could find and did my best to guess the boundaries from there. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 20:13:50
quote:
Originally posted by KismetRose
Yeah, the map in the Grand History of the Realms was the one generalized one I was talking about.
When I was studying what I could find in the books, here's what I came up with as the overall spread. It seemed like the areas where the empires drew up against each other were contested, but that was just my impression. It doesn't go down as far as Bezantur but it seems like Kensten would be in the right place to be Raumathari.
Yeah, except for the debatable areas in Thay, this would seem to cover it. In fact, I'd half wonder if the area of Thay was kind of a late addition to the empire, and perhaps it was covered more with gnolls, centaurs, and orcs from the orcgate wars. The actual raised sections of Thay may have not been held by either side, and instead the two human kingdoms filled in the lower ground which today are known as Thazalhar and the Priador.
In fact, to my current knowledge, there is nothing that says that Mulhorand ever controlled the escarpments of Thay (not saying that they didn't), and it may have been that the raised area of Thay was composed of Mulans who were clearing / pioneering into this area that may have been traditionally "monster" controlled. I state this because the Pharaoh's title includes something like guardian of the Priador. This may be why gnolls, centaurs, orcs, etc... are so readily accepted into their society..... because they were already living amongst them. |
| KismetRose |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 17:33:55
Yeah, the map in the Grand History of the Realms was the one generalized one I was talking about.
When I was studying what I could find in the books, here's what I came up with as the overall spread. It seemed like the areas where the empires drew up against each other were contested, but that was just my impression. It doesn't go down as far as Bezantur but it seems like Kensten would be in the right place to be Raumathari. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 16:36:39
Yes it does, but its in a very weird place (this place actually includes a decent amount of info on Raumathar as well). Check the old horde boxed set. Note though that this map is incorrect in some respects, because Raumathar did extend down into Thay, because Bezantur was originally a Raumathari city named Kensten founded over two millennia ago according to Powers & Pantheons entry for the Flaming Brazier temple. So my take would be to take the picture from the Horde Boxed Set (which ends at the Lakelands of Shemen (Rashemen) and then include a large swathe of Thay.
Now, the Narfell side... that's a lot more vague. You can grub up some information from the Grand History of the Realms, but the borders aren't mapped that I know of. I get the idea that they had a lot of lower Thesk though, because they captured Shandaular, Capital of Ashanath. The closest thing is the map from the Year of Forsaken Oaths -626 DR from the Grand History of the Realms. |
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