| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gyor |
Posted - 22 Jun 2016 : 19:38:02
Okay if all the Nations of Faerun went to war with both Zakahara and Kara Tur, which also went to war with each other, which contient of the Supercontinient would win the War? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 01:49:04
quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Not at all. Zakhara is mostly isolationist, so they would never just decide to reach out and attack entire continents. It would be more likely for them to strike back with force after first being attacked.
Supply lines aren't nearly as much of an issue when magic is thrown into the mix.
Well, there was a Scouring of the Utter East, documented in the Grand History of the Realms, wherein a Grand Calipha totally launched a crusade. There's also several bits in Al-Qadim: Land of Fate about mamluks (slave-warriors) being boys and girls taken in raids against neighboring lands. Plus several references to trade with foreigners in the Cities of the North.
So "isolationist" doesn't seem accurate (though it's hard to state definitively one way or the other since Zakhara was insulated from the rest of the Realms by the designers for marketing reasons...not for any in-story reasons I can see, however).
One thing you'll notice going through the Al-Qadim books is the CRAZY population numbers.
Here are the population sizes given for the Cities of the North (the ones closest to the Shining South):
Hafayah, City of Secrets 120,000
Hawa, City of Chaos 50,000 (maybe? they're mostly corsairs, so unreliable figure)
Liham, City of Soldiers 120,000
Muluk, City of Kings 90,000
Qadib, City of Wands 50,000
Qudra, City of Power 500,000
Umara, City of Knights 100,000
Utaqa, City of Free Men 70,000
By way of comparison...
Cathtyr, capital of Dambrath 42,374
Heldapan, capital of Durpar 50,000 (largest city in the Shining Lands)
Orvyltar, capital of Ulgarth ~21,000
Halarahh, capital of Halruaa (before Spellplague decimated it) ~8,000
Suzail, capital of Cormyr 55,000
If these numbers are right, Zakhara has a much larger population to muster new soldiers from.
When stating population numbers in the realms, its particularly important to note the version (2e had notedly higher population numbers in all their products compared to 3e). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 01:46:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even with skirmishes, you're talking about armies that are starting off thousands of miles away from each other.
On this I just have to make the remark.... or one portal away.... distance in the real world versus distance in the realms are not as big a deal. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 20:16:33
As for populations, I'd say they are pretty much the same - just more concentrated in the cities because of the general unpleasantness outside city walls.
In general, the magic of Faerun tends to be much more powerful, and more importantly, more plentiful than that of Kara Tur of Zhakhara.
When the Tuigan Horde tried to invade, they did it with help from Thay and still lost. Imagine what would have happened if Thay didn't like horses as much as they didn't like witches.
This is probably the biggest problem with this question. Each of the settings is made up of multiple countries that would never align with each other.
Also, a lot of the strength of certain places/people is derived from that place. Most of the spirits who's powers are called on have been there for 1000s of years. |
| Quickleaf |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 11:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
That's why I used "sort of". And yet, they successfully pushed back the invasion, a feat not accomplished by huge Shou Lung. We could think then that Faerūn is stronger than Kara-Tur, but then again Shou Lung is not the whole Kara-Tur, and it was caught unprepared (because of their arrogance and excessive trust in the Dragon Wall). In a way, Azoun and his Eastern Heartlands army were prepared for this war.
So the Tuigan expanded east into Shou Lung and west into Rashemen/Thesk...but why not south?
Was it that the Dustwall Mountains really do cut off the Endless Wastes from the Shining South / Ulgarth, even at the eastern end? Presumably due to a combination of extreme altitude (~15,000 ft), lots of orcs (hordes 5,000 strong), and the magically impassable Gate of Iron? |
| Quickleaf |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 11:08:21
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Not at all. Zakhara is mostly isolationist, so they would never just decide to reach out and attack entire continents. It would be more likely for them to strike back with force after first being attacked.
Supply lines aren't nearly as much of an issue when magic is thrown into the mix.
Well, there was a Scouring of the Utter East, documented in the Grand History of the Realms, wherein a Grand Calipha totally launched a crusade. There's also several bits in Al-Qadim: Land of Fate about mamluks (slave-warriors) being boys and girls taken in raids against neighboring lands. Plus several references to trade with foreigners in the Cities of the North.
So "isolationist" doesn't seem accurate (though it's hard to state definitively one way or the other since Zakhara was insulated from the rest of the Realms by the designers for marketing reasons...not for any in-story reasons I can see, however).
One thing you'll notice going through the Al-Qadim books is the CRAZY population numbers.
Here are the population sizes given for the Cities of the North (the ones closest to the Shining South):
Hafayah, City of Secrets 120,000
Hawa, City of Chaos 50,000 (maybe? they're mostly corsairs, so unreliable figure)
Liham, City of Soldiers 120,000
Muluk, City of Kings 90,000
Qadib, City of Wands 50,000
Qudra, City of Power 500,000
Umara, City of Knights 100,000
Utaqa, City of Free Men 70,000
By way of comparison...
Cathtyr, capital of Dambrath 42,374
Heldapan, capital of Durpar 50,000 (largest city in the Shining Lands)
Orvyltar, capital of Ulgarth ~21,000
Halarahh, capital of Halruaa (before Spellplague decimated it) ~8,000
Suzail, capital of Cormyr 55,000
If these numbers are right, Zakhara has a much larger population to muster new soldiers from.
|
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 20:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Jerusalem was also the birthplace of the knights' monotheistic religion. The Realms has neither the monotheistic religion nor the single, all-important point of origin for any faith.
Well Zakhara does with the Laws of the Loregiver and their enlightened pantheon. But I get your point. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 19:38:49
Jerusalem was also the birthplace of the knights' monotheistic religion. The Realms has neither the monotheistic religion nor the single, all-important point of origin for any faith.
That scenario is also not everyone from one particular continent deciding to make war on another continent. |
| VikingLegion |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 18:52:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even with skirmishes, you're talking about armies that are starting off thousands of miles away from each other.
London to Jerusalem is over 2200 miles apart in a completely straight line without accounting for crossing mountains, bodies of water, etc. Knights from all over Europe united to march on the Holy Lands. It wasn't cheap or easy, but they did it, all without the benefits of spells, flying mounts, fantastic Halruuan airships, magical portals/gateways, divine assistance, etc. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 16:41:04
Even with skirmishes, you're talking about armies that are starting off thousands of miles away from each other. |
| VikingLegion |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 15:50:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes. With most fantasy settings, there is a lot of isolation between nations. Even with nations that are neighbors, there are usually miles of wilderness between the closest cities. The lack of modern communications systems means one nation could be attacked by a southern neighbor and it could be weeks before their northern neighbor learned of it.
*snip*
Remember, warfare is more than just armies meeting on the battlefield. You've got the political dimension; there needs to be a reason for there to be a conflict involving armies, and it's got to be enough of a reason to convince people to do it and to justify the economic costs. You've got the logistical elements -- the cost of deploying the army, the transportation issues getting the combatants in place, the necessities of moving the tons of materiel needed for that army, all the non-combat personnel that have to go along, and creating and maintaining lines of communication.
Fair points, all. But what a fantasy world *does* frequently have are deities that directly manifest themselves to their followers and make their wills known. Look at what happens when a pope tells the fighters of Europe to unite and take back the Middle East. I would never discount religious fervor as a motivating factor for war, even more so than nationalism. And we aren't talking about a high priest having some vague vision or interpreting an obscure omen. No, an avatar several hundred feet tall can literally materialize in a city square and directly command his followers to go slay his enemies. Not much room for misinterpretation or ambiguity.
So maybe in a vastly polytheistic world like the Realms this wouldn't work quite as well, as there aren't a ton of cities/societies devoted solely to the worship of one power (like Lloth in Menzoberanzzan).
So what about a Godswar? Pantheon vs. pantheon? Rather than an Archduke Ferdinand kicking the whole thing off, instead a deity of the Heartlands assassinates a Mulhorandi god. They petition for aid from the Zakharan pantheon to teach the western barbarians a lesson. After some months of fighting, the Celestial Bureaucracy's interest is piqued, and they declare for one side or the other. With entire pantheons commanding their flocks, rather than individual gods or mortals, the participation percentage is going to be through the roof.
Logistically you are correct in stating it would be entirely unfeasible to get all the troops mobilized and supplied. But it doesn't have to come down to one titanic battle of millions of soldiers packing a single field. The war would be fought in a series of skirmishes along several theatres - land, air, and sea (and the Outer Planes themselves in deity skirmishes). There wouldn't me much of a true "winner", as no faction would have the manpower to actually hold their land gains. Like WWI it would be a brutally horrific war of attrition, where thousands of lives are lost for tiny and insignificant advances. Eventually it would have to come down to Ao or some outside force brokering a tentative peace among the immortals, which would filter down and eventually end hostilities in Toril.
Still too far-fetched? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 19:07:26
I feel that now is a relevant time to mention Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 14:08:50
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Oh pish posh. The Gnomish Clockwork Dragons and Mecha-Golem armies (of pre-Spellplague Lantan) will prevail. Plus the gnomes already have a cache of magically-infused nukes.
Those clockwork dragons are overrated. Hell, I saw that Mickey Mouse himself had captured one to march it in a parade.
http://www.mouseinfo.com/forums/content/3695-resort-hopping-festival-fantasy-parade-magic-kingdom-walt-disney-world.html |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 06:01:50
Oh pish posh. The Gnomish Clockwork Dragons and Mecha-Golem armies (of pre-Spellplague Lantan) will prevail. Plus the gnomes already have a cache of magically-infused nukes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 04:28:31
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I don't think key nations of Kara Tur was invovled in the war against the Tuigan Invasion, nations like and that other Peursado Japan for example.
Shou Lung did fight the Tuigan, but that was only on Shou turf. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 27 Jun 2016 : 23:04:57
I don't think key nations of Kara Tur was invovled in the war against the Tuigan Invasion, nations like and that other Peursado Japan for example. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Jun 2016 : 11:39:41
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Faerūn sort of united when the Tuigan Horde attacked. (...)
I think that unity was a little overrated. (...)
That's why I used "sort of". And yet, they successfully pushed back the invasion, a feat not accomplished by huge Shou Lung. We could think then that Faerūn is stronger than Kara-Tur, but then again Shou Lung is not the whole Kara-Tur, and it was caught unprepared (because of their arrogance and excessive trust in the Dragon Wall). In a way, Azoun and his Eastern Heartlands army were prepared for this war. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2016 : 15:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
World war is not really a viable concept in most fantasy settings.
Why not? Too big of an RSE? Or do you feel there's something specific/inherent to fantasy settings that would prevent it?
Yes. With most fantasy settings, there is a lot of isolation between nations. Even with nations that are neighbors, there are usually miles of wilderness between the closest cities. The lack of modern communications systems means one nation could be attacked by a southern neighbor and it could be weeks before their northern neighbor learned of it.
And an end result of this would be that a lack of concern or urgency about it in the northern nation. With people that rarely set foot outside of their cities, something happening in even a neighboring nation is likely too far away for them to be concerned about.
Most fantasy nations do not have large standing armies, and a significant portion of what they do have is scattered all across that nation, protecting it. You can't pull those troops and send them elsewhere without seriously weakening your own defenses. And unless you've got a army of high-level wizards just sitting around, it's going to take weeks to muster all of your troops, and then weeks for them to get to where you need them to fight this theoretical enemy.
That's also going to make for extremely slow communications back home, and the supply lines are going to be heinous.
Just look at the book Crusade. Azoun IV, a ruler well-loved by his people, still had a hard sell convincing Cormyreans there was a need to go fight some enemy they'd never heard of in a place that was for most of them unimaginably far away.
It was in the best interest of the Zhents to be part of this, but he still had to give them serious concessions to get them to agree to aid the effort.
And Cormyr literally does have an army of wizards -- but they still had to rely on mundane means for most of the transport and communications, because they just didn't have the magical strength to make portals and a communications network.
A setting like Eber-whatsit, where nations are more densely packed and communications and transportation systems in place, makes a world war viable. A place like the Realms, where you can spend weeks getting from one civilized place to another? Nope, not at all viable.
Remember, warfare is more than just armies meeting on the battlefield. You've got the political dimension; there needs to be a reason for there to be a conflict involving armies, and it's got to be enough of a reason to convince people to do it and to justify the economic costs. You've got the logistical elements -- the cost of deploying the army, the transportation issues getting the combatants in place, the necessities of moving the tons of materiel needed for that army, all the non-combat personnel that have to go along, and creating and maintaining lines of communication.
The actual meeting of armies is practically an afterthought, in war, compared to what it takes to get them to meet.
I'm willing to engage in thought exercises, but it's got to be something that could happen. Kozakura and Wa fighting Shou Lung? Sure. Kozakura and Wa fighting deciding to send armies thousands of miles away to attack the Dales or the Sword Coast? Nope. |
| VikingLegion |
Posted - 26 Jun 2016 : 04:09:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
World war is not really a viable concept in most fantasy settings.
Why not? Too big of an RSE? Or do you feel there's something specific/inherent to fantasy settings that would prevent it? If the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria, an event that was met with almost casual indifference by his own people, can end up pulling every major power of our world and over 70 million combatants to the field of war, I can't imagine the nations of Faerun, Zakharra, and Kara-Tur having less interesting/entangled layers of intrigue and alliances - both public and back door. All it takes is one domino to fall and the sides begin to line up - some for vengeance, some for honor, some for opportunism: as a chance to expand territory/influence, "show-off" new military capability to the world at large, or just as an excuse to attack a long-time blood foe.
Magical communication and teleportation/portals would rival our own phones, newspapers, and radios, so I can't see how the message wouldn't spread. The various theaters of war would be magnificently replaced by fantasy units: sea serpents, kraken, and leviathans taking the place of submarines and U-Boats; dragon-mounted knights subbing in for the various fighter and bomber planes; great flying cloud manta-rays used in the same capacity as reconnaissance zeppelins.
Crap, I want to make a new campaign now: Toril at War. Just my opinion of course, but I think that's a better way to do a true "shake up" event to realign some national boundaries, replace some major leaders, etc. than the various Plagues (Abyssal and Spell) and frustrating timeline jumps we get. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jun 2016 : 15:41:48
quote:
Originally posted by Owesstaer
Individual strong characters exist in all settings So Elimnster, Drizzt, ... wouldn't tip the scales so much I think
But the mention of the red wizards is for me the key point: A whole nation of "heavy artillery" magic. I do not think such exists in Kara Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. And, Thay is not the only such nation: add in the witches of Rashemen, Halruaa, Nimbral, maybe even Evermeet...
I say this with some regret because I love those nations, but it should be heavily noted that Rashemen, Halruaa, and Nimbral are notedly always described as sparsely populated communities. They are little more than villages except for say their capitals. Granted as a percentage, they probably have 3 to 5 (maybe even 10-20 times in the case of Halruaa) the number of arcane casters as other areas. Thay however is a powerhouse like you mention (or it was prior to the spellplague.... its current state with undead feeding off their inhabitants will have obviously reduced their numbers, either through killing them or forcing them to retreat). |
| Baltas |
Posted - 25 Jun 2016 : 11:32:11
quote:
Originally posted by Owesstaer
Individual strong characters exist in all settings So Elimnster, Drizzt, ... wouldn't tip the scales so much I think
But the mention of the red wizards is for me the key point: A whole nation of "heavy artillery" magic. I do not think such exists in Kara Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. And, Thay is not the only such nation: add in the witches of Rashemen, Halruaa, Nimbral, maybe even Evermeet...
Well, but I think those people/heroes are living in Faerun, would rather fight on it's side in a war, at the very least defensively, but that still would make a dent in Kara-Tur's and Zakhara's forces.
Also, while Red Wizards are an important factor, Imaskari survivors might be even crucial, and with who would they side. That and Red Wizards, largely formed first as self proclaimed successors of the Imaskari Empire. It's very probable the very ritual Szass Ram wanted to use to kill all of Faerun, and ascend to a god, was in some manner at least of Imaskari origin.
The Imaskari survivors probably know ways to unlock a lot of the hidden resources of Imaskar. |
| Owesstaer |
Posted - 25 Jun 2016 : 08:40:36
Individual strong characters exist in all settings So Elimnster, Drizzt, ... wouldn't tip the scales so much I think
But the mention of the red wizards is for me the key point: A whole nation of "heavy artillery" magic. I do not think such exists in Kara Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. And, Thay is not the only such nation: add in the witches of Rashemen, Halruaa, Nimbral, maybe even Evermeet... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jun 2016 : 16:55:52
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Faerūn sort of united when the Tuigan Horde attacked. Zakhara's big weapon, in my point of view, are their genies. As for Kara-Tur... Well, I think it is under-developed for us to say something. But sheer numbers should be an advantage, along with their Spelljammer fleet.
I think that unity was a little overrated. Thay arranged for the Tuigan to invade Rashemen. Rashemen ejected them into Thesk and basically said "not my problem anymore". Granted Cormyr and Zhentil Keep did align to send troops over, but I see that more as Zhentil Keep going "hey, lets see if we can open a new market along the golden way" because they're merchants and it helps their brand. Cormyr did draw some crusaders from some of the surrounding countries, but for instance, I don't recall hearing Aglarond, Narfell or Damara entering the fray (Impiltur may have). For some reason Azoun made the call and the countries near Cormyr seemed to join in (which for some of them may have just been seen as a way to attack on foreign soil and gain friendship with a nearby strong power as a result.... so for some of them, a chance to train recruits in actual warfare rather than small skirmishes).
And I don't recall much of anyone outside of the Heartlands getting involved, either. It's been a while since I read that book, but I seem to recall the city-states of the Sword Coast not being involved at all.
Or pretty much anyone not associated with a geopolitical region -- no dragons, independent mages, Harpers, trading costers, cabals, etc. I'm sure individual Harpers were involved, I don't recall them being involved as a group. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jun 2016 : 14:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Faerūn sort of united when the Tuigan Horde attacked. Zakhara's big weapon, in my point of view, are their genies. As for Kara-Tur... Well, I think it is under-developed for us to say something. But sheer numbers should be an advantage, along with their Spelljammer fleet.
I think that unity was a little overrated. Thay arranged for the Tuigan to invade Rashemen. Rashemen ejected them into Thesk and basically said "not my problem anymore". Granted Cormyr and Zhentil Keep did align to send troops over, but I see that more as Zhentil Keep going "hey, lets see if we can open a new market along the golden way" because they're merchants and it helps their brand. Cormyr did draw some crusaders from some of the surrounding countries, but for instance, I don't recall hearing Aglarond, Narfell or Damara entering the fray (Impiltur may have). For some reason Azoun made the call and the countries near Cormyr seemed to join in (which for some of them may have just been seen as a way to attack on foreign soil and gain friendship with a nearby strong power as a result.... so for some of them, a chance to train recruits in actual warfare rather than small skirmishes). |
| Baltas |
Posted - 24 Jun 2016 : 13:54:41
Well, Faerun, has some MAJOR adventages, if it united. It has some demi-god like character, like Elminster(who is even seen as a demigod of sorts in Kara-Tur), Szass Tam, Drizzt(who is in this cathegory, after he won against Demogorgon), Storm, etc who would be WMGs in humanoid shape during a war(something the Tuigan saga under utilized, but I guess it was to make a more exciting story), as well some literally incarnated gods, like Enlil, Gilgeam etc.
It would also depends with who would side the people of High/Deep Imaskar. The Shou Lung empire, did start out after all, as a Imaskari survivor state, so Deep/Hight Imaskari might side with Kara-Tur, giving them an adventage.
Slightly less probable, Imaskari may side with Zakharans, as it's suggested Imaskari(and Durpari in generall) originally came from Zakhara, and Markustay had a nice theory Nog, Kadar and Sahu are remains of waves of Imaskari settlements.
[EDIT]
And as some, like Seethyr mentioned, there is also the Wild Card that is Maztica.
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 24 Jun 2016 : 13:41:10
Faerūn sort of united when the Tuigan Horde attacked. Zakhara's big weapon, in my point of view, are their genies. As for Kara-Tur... Well, I think it is under-developed for us to say something. But sheer numbers should be an advantage, along with their Spelljammer fleet. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 23 Jun 2016 : 14:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Zakhara.
Why Zakhara, their the smallest contient of the three?
And? Germany is small. Look what they did in WWII.
So by your rationale Kara-Tur would win since they are the largest.
You make a good arguement. So you think Zakhara would just blitzcrieg that crap out of Faerun and Kara Tur.
Still that makes supply lines difficult.
Not at all. Zakhara is mostly isolationist, so they would never just decide to reach out and attack entire continents. It would be more likely for them to strike back with force after first being attacked.
Supply lines aren't nearly as much of an issue when magic is thrown into the mix. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 23 Jun 2016 : 14:30:50
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This all assumes that the people in each area can cooperate with each other..... I just don't have a picture of the red wizards teaming up with the wychlaran, all of whom team up with the demon worshippers following Eltab in Impiltur, all of whom join up with Mulhorandi and the refugees of High Imaskar..... and that's just the east.
Exactly.
Since we are talking about continental unity, Zakhara is easily the most unified of the group.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jun 2016 : 14:26:17
This all assumes that the people in each area can cooperate with each other..... I just don't have a picture of the red wizards teaming up with the wychlaran, all of whom team up with the demon worshippers following Eltab in Impiltur, all of whom join up with Mulhorandi and the refugees of High Imaskar..... and that's just the east. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 23 Jun 2016 : 11:52:13
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Zakhara.
Why Zakhara, their the smallest contient of the three?
And? Germany is small. Look what they did in WWII.
So by your rationale Kara-Tur would win since they are the largest.
You make a good arguement. So you think Zakhara would just blitzcrieg that crap out of Faerun and Kara Tur.
Seethyr want to toss Mazitica into the Frey as well.
The Distance and mutal war between Zakhara, Faerun, and Kara Tur actually gives Mazitica a major advantage because Zakahara, Kara Tur,and Faerun can strike back at Mazitica without leaving themselves open to the other two, while Mazitica has the advatage of an Ocean as a barrier.
Still that makes supply lines difficult. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 23 Jun 2016 : 04:51:10
I think some jaguar Knights, eagle Knights, plumaweaver and hishnashaper would come and open up a can of whoop*ss on them all. |
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