| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 23:37:43
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I felt like discussing possibilities. So, read through the below... if it makes you think of something, add it.
So, I know a lot of folks have made comparisons between how similar Athas and Abeir might be. Some have posited that they might be the same world. I don't believe this due to fact that Abeir has no sun at all and Athas has a dying sun. I also picture Abeir as more rain forest / jungle like with a lot of reptilians / dragons / elementals.
Both seemingly have some kind of odd ties to the elemental planes (and in both, the Primordial beings are not as strong as they once were). However, that being said, both are seemingly "crystal spheres" that are cut off from the outer planes. But, we know Abeir is "out of phase" with the other crystal spheres of the known universe. So, that makes me wonder.... are both Abeir and Athas "out of phase" parts of an existing crystal sphere that has been twinned. If so, then Athas may periodically be coming in synch with its alternate world (like the Abeir-Toril crashing together). Also, along these same lines, would spelljamming actually be possible between Athas and Abeir (assuming that they're in the same phase).
The below is also from the 4e FR campaign guide, which also makes me wonder... we know of Abeir and Toril... but could there be more than just the twinned worlds in the same crystal sphere (and would that make it any better).
Melauthaur is actually a runescribed dracolich who continues to strengthen his undead powers. Sometimes he sends his dragon subjects
to distant parts of Returned Abeir, apparently looking for clues regarding a relic that was lost during the war between the Estelar and the Dawn Titans in ancient days. Called The Shadow of Ao, the relic is said to have the power to twin the world anew. |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2016 : 14:29:54
My way of keeping the Great Wheel structure around, while still keeping the post-2E planar structure, is to consider the non-Wheel planes to just be layers or realms on Wheel planes. So Heliopolis is either its own distinct layer of one of the standard planes, or it's a realm on one of those standard planes.
In my opinion, the options are either a rough integration like that, or just toss out all non-Wheel stuff and move things around accordingly. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jun 2016 : 13:48:38
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Abeir is/was uniquely isolated from other worlds and planes (by design). Did it have any overlap with planar locations like the Feywild, Ravenloft, and Shadowfell before the Spellplague? Was it accessible by planeswalkers, could denizens of Abeir (theoretically) leave their world?
I confess that my understanding is incomplete since I wholeheartedly rejected Wizbro's Realmslore from D&D4E onwards, lol.
For simplicity's sake I'd go with the idea that the "out of phase" Abeir definitely can't interact with the feywild, ravenloft, and shadowfell. However, that could bring up some interesting questions, and that's kind of why I wanted to start this thread. There were some outer planes that were specific to the realms, and they disappeared. For instance, the plane of Heliopolis.... was it a relatively new plane created by Ao for the Mulhorandi deities after the ToT when they were allowed to ascend?.... did it go over to Abeir? The deities are back now with "chosen" amongst them.... are they back but with no home plane again? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Jun 2016 : 17:08:06
Abeir is/was uniquely isolated from other worlds and planes (by design). Did it have any overlap with planar locations like the Feywild, Ravenloft, and Shadowfell before the Spellplague? Was it accessible by planeswalkers, could denizens of Abeir (theoretically) leave their world?
I confess that my understanding is incomplete since I wholeheartedly rejected Wizbro's Realmslore from D&D4E onwards, lol. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 15 Jun 2016 : 21:00:57
I wonder if Abeir has a moon or other satellites in its orbit and/or if its steelsky is its equivalent for a Solar body.
I have heard Rich Gray theorize that Arambar rides a chariot of fire across the steelsky, his radiance so bright the steelsky works as the main source of solar radiance for Abeirs planetary system, illuminating its surroundings in distinct bands of golden-grey radiance as he circles around the world and ensures a day and night cycle on a world without orbital spin. Any stable satellite above and below of the orbit of Arambar in this 'sky setup' could be permanently visible, and a stable source of 'star' light during nights. Satellites and moons near the actively luminous steelsky would be illuminated by Arambars path during the day and be subject to gradual waxing and waning during each dawn and dusk, each sunrise heralded and complimented with the moon's sickle slowly expanding as it catches the light of Arambar sky early.
In a system where Abeir has its own solar body the nightsky could still become bizarre sight. If Abeir had twin moons, a small and a larger one just as in Dark Sun, nights could be eerily well lit. When both moons are above the horizon they'd reflect the sun's light towards Abeirs surface, creating lighting conditions similar to a bright-grey dawn during the whole of the night. One could also steal the idea that Abeirs sun is a 'dark twin' of Torils, and somehow much closer and less radiant. It might similarly shift from highsun to lowsun and back again during the year.
Lots of possible astro-cosmological systems are thinkable, I think I'm going with a 'Dead Twin Sun' and two moons scenario for now. Need to stew my thoughts some more on this...
Edit: Found Gray's post |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Jun 2016 : 18:07:31
Dragons on Athas are not just rare, they are basically myths. In fact there is only one dragon in the Tyr region, there are perhaps only one or two in the entirety of Athas. And they are very unlike dragons from other D&D settings. They are almost something like liches, defiler archmages who've been so twisted and tortured by their transformation into a dragon (between levels 20 and 30, lol) that they've lost all remnants of humanity - they are legendary, lethal, cruel, malign, and calculating in the extreme. Defilers are rare on Athas, those who survive to such high levels can be counted on one hand, not all of them are capable of casting the metamorphisis ritual, and most of them likely wouldn't survive it to completion - and that's before considering opposition from other defilers and templar god-kings and dragons who wouldn't like the ascension of a new rival.
My understanding is that Athas is indeed connected to the Elemental Planes. But it is still somehow so remote and distant from other worlds that one cannot realistically travel through these planes to other worlds. Canon sources offer a few different and contradictory explanations about Athas's relationship to the planes.
A discussion you might find interesting is here. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jun 2016 : 13:57:05
So, based on this, you see Abeir having strong elemental ties and Athas having weaker ones (which bears out with some of the lore I've read of Athas where its elemental princes are weak). I think this COULD fit with the idea that they aren't the same planet, but they are in the same crystal sphere. Especially if say their planet is actually closer to the dying sun and thus the desert type environment.
Dragons on Athas are rare, no? I know there is a ritual people use to transform into a dragon overlord. What if they were actually somehow tapping into the primordial (for lack of a better word) avatars of some ancient powerful draconic primordials. The faithless primal clerics could go hand in hand with this.
Hmmm, the psionics piece does tend to make things a little different.... but it would maybe seem somewhat similar to the plaguescarred, just in the fact that people are somehow touched by a rare "magical" ability. I see some kind of seed there, but I'm not sure how to work it.
Anyway, not sure if its a good idea, but its worth discussing. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 14 Jun 2016 : 15:48:06
Dark Sun lore has no mention of the world being out of phase with a twin, but it does mention a "Messenger" Comet in orbit around Athas appearing in ancient times before disappearing in a the '190th Kings Age', hinting at changes in the natural Crystal Sphere of Athas similar to one found in a Toril after its twinning (i.e. an astrological rearrangement of the Stars noted by the Sarruhk). Perhaps these are signs that the Toril ancient phasing periods are linked to the world of Athas aswell?
Abeir has a more limited link to astrological phenomena through stargazes are slightly obscured by the Steelsky skin of its Sky-Primordial Arambar, probably giving rise to astrophysical anomalies. I also see its magic more interested in its core elemental pillars, and growing stronger towards the elemental nodes in Abeir core and surface laylines, i.e. places where the Dawn Titans walked/resided. Aberis feywild is non-existant, while its shadowfell is probably cut off from itself or tattered into oblivion. Psionics might fit, but I prefer to think draconic sorcery is more prevalent, especially if you follow the lore that abeiran dragons seized power right after the Dawn War.
For some of the cultural elements I'd prefer to plunder ideas from Dark Sun to place in Abeir/Laerakond than to wholesale place the setting there. Elements such as a faithless primal clerics, slave-based economy based on trade agreements with familiar houses scattered over the citystates, dragon overlords and transformation rituals are good to steal, but I wouldn't place the history of Dark Sun wholesale over. Elements such as the Cleansing Wars, Rajaats Champions, Nature benders and Mindlords tend to complicate matters when looking at from a perspective that Abeir is a post-apocalyptic divine prison that contains little else than elemental and draconic power sources.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 13:31:52
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, I know a lot of folks have made comparisons between how similar Athas and Abeir might be. Some have posited that they might be the same world.
Suggest this to Wizbros. It's going to outdo all their previous antics. By annoying a lot of...
FR fans - with a mere mention of Abeir.
FR4 fans - with dragging Abeir into it and mentioning "unfashionable" Athas.
Dark Sun fans - with dragging Athas into it.
Maybe, Dragonlance fans - with a mere mention of Athas? I don't know. 
Yeah, but nothing tends to get fixed until its discussed ad nauseum and people start to see what actually is wanted. At this point, I don't care as much what Wizbros wants because they're obviously not producing material anymore. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 09:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, I know a lot of folks have made comparisons between how similar Athas and Abeir might be. Some have posited that they might be the same world.
Suggest this to Wizbros. It's going to outdo all their previous antics. By annoying a lot of...
FR fans - with a mere mention of Abeir.
FR4 fans - with dragging Abeir into it and mentioning "unfashionable" Athas.
Dark Sun fans - with dragging Athas into it.
Maybe, Dragonlance fans - with a mere mention of Athas? I don't know. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 21:28:35
I like some of what you're positing. The idea of the Shalarin / sea of Corynactis thing is a very good tie in, especially if some of the batrachi creator race are here. The Saurials being on Abeir I've also stated on other threads makes sense to me, and a lot of other folks have also said they like that idea. I think that one definitely needs a stamp of approval, along with the idea of dinosaurs still being common. I'd also posit some Aearee peoples. I also like the idea of the dying sun transferring over.
On the idea that they are the same world... maybe not so much, but lets play with some of your concepts for a second. However, they may both be in realmspace. One thing that we often forget is that there are other planets in realmspace. It could be that Abeir has some kind of protective shell around it as you theorize which gives it its silver sky, and maybe Athas is instead a world that didn't benefit from such protections. In fact, what if Athas didn't benefit from the protections because it was a world with humanoids who didn't favor the primordials? Maybe their use of life draining magics was actually damaging the primordials. So, whereas Abeir recently collided with Toril.... could Athas also have recently collided with another world in realmspace? |
| Baltas |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 20:06:37
Well, both Abeir-Toril(as it occured when both worlds were one) and Athas had a Blue Age in Distant Past.
Would that make halflings a Creator Race? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 16:29:26
I figured they COULD be the same world, as well as also being the world of the Saurials.
It would work like this - the planet is very hot, with an old, dying red super-giant sun. The northern hemisphere is mostly lush jungle, and for some reason (Ao? The Dawn Titans? Dragon Magic?) is covered with a protective silvery dome. This northern half would be known as 'Abeir' to most of the inhabitants, and in some of the deeper, darker (unexplored by humans?) regions we would find the saurials - or rather, the four non-Sarrukh Sauroid species that remain. My theory here is that much like human history, one particular group grew stronger then the rest and proceeded to enslave or commit genocide on the others. When the world was split-apart, Ao made sure to separate as many of the non-Sarrukh sauroids as he could onto Abeir (a few remain - their are 'native' saurials in the Malatra region, which is canon). In those same remote areas could be found more primitive varieties of dragons (and other creatures), like the feathered ones mentioned in the Saurial stories. This half of the world would also contain the Council of Wyrms setting (thus combining three sub-settings into the northern hemisphere alone).
The southern hemisphere has no such protection, and is subject to the full, brutal cosmic assault of the sun's rays. It is mostly barren wasteland, with a few 'settled' regions. Here we find Athas, and also the original homeland of the Abber Nomads (From Ravenloft's Nightmare Lands). Magic has been 'blasted' from this side of the world, because there is no protective shield as there is in the North. The north would be prone to have more primitive varieties of creatures (dinosaurs and 'dire' variants). One could also find some Norse dragons (linnorms) along the frozen arctic circle (along with at least one Kingdom of ancient Jotuns, I would imagine).
Here's where I science (fiction) the hell out of it: First off, the planet has Zero axial tilt, which creates a an impassable 'forbidden zone' around the equator of about a hundred miles or so, which is so hot nothing less then a dragon could attempt to cross it these burning wastes. On top of this, and extended at least another hundred or so miles in each direction would be heavy fog... or rather, STEAM. The ocean BOILS here. It truly is a 'Nightmare Land'. BTW, I stole this planetary concept from Edgar Rice Burroughs (the man was THE most brilliant setting-creator EVER). Thus, there is very little interaction between the two hemispheres.
Now the fantasy/FR-ish part: Life = Magic. Solar energy = Life. Ergo, the life-giving properties of the yellow sun promotes 'magic'. This ties into some stuff I have about elves being at least partially photosynthetic, which is mentioned in the CBoE (and also why Superman has his powers LOL). When Ao separated the world into Abeir & Toril, it as at the time when the FIRST SUN died... or was dying. The reason why Abeir has a dying sun is because that was the first sun, trapped in a 'time bubble' of Ao's creation at the moment just before final death. Toril got the 'New sun', Lathander/Aumanator. That sun is literally trapped in the moment of its own death (much like Hodor... too soon?  ).
The silvery sky-shield above the Northern hemisphere diffuses the power-draining properties of the red sun's solar rays, thus enabling Aberians to use some magic (although not to the extent its used on Toril). In the unprotected south, the red-sun has burned-away all (most, actually) of the life from the soil, giving us the conditions we are familiar with in Athas. Southerners have managed to develop psionics to a high art because of the loss of magic (and I could science-fction the heck out of this part as well, getting into how the increase in electro-magnetic fields have caused unusual 'brain activity' and allowed this peculiar evolution).
Why only one half of the world was protected remains a 'mystery', but I'd probably blame it on the Creator Races somehow (and there should be remnants of all of them somewhere on this world). Maybe a Titan/God sacrificed itself to create the shield... who knows? I like to leave at least one open-end for future exploration.. Anyhow, it allowed me to tie a BUNCH of other places to FR. I would also say that the Sea of Corynactis (homeland of the Shalarin) is on Abeir (and re-write that poor passage in the GotR - the ORIGINAL LORE written by Steven Schend even says that 'their gods would no longer answer their prayers' - that would indicate a different world, and at the very least one blocked off from contact... like ABEIR!)
Hope that helps in some way.  |
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