| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 22:04:39
Rashemen kind of confuses me in terms of the fact that it has some quite clear real world influence, but it's a little mixed.
The people themselves are said to be somewhat dark, resembling Romani or perhaps middle eastern peoples. A lot of the terminology used in their culture is Slavic/Russian, but in other ways they resemble more Arctic peoples, like the Saami or Samoyeds.
I suppose it could be seen as most of the Western half of Russia(and former USSR countries like Kazakstan) smooshed into one smaller country. Russia has a lot of different ethnic groups(including the Romani) so I guess that could account for it.
I'm kind of curious as to exactly where the real world influences came from. |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 20:18:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Emerald Sage
I think this particular field of historical study was more in vogue during the early part of the twentieth century but it was hugely influential - influencing not just Howard but also possibly H.P. Lovecraft aswell. Also presumably shaping much of Tolkien's middle-earth and somewhat uncomfortably, much of Nazi ideology and the aryan supremacy theories that circulated at the time.
My generation unfortunately knows very little about this. Where did the concept of Hyperborea come from and what was the historical resource that scholars looked to? Admittedly some were fantasists but I'm guessing there must be some records that people looked to. Where would an interested person begin?
Well, the term Hyperborea first appeared in Greek writtings, and the term means "beyond the North Wind". The Greeks thought that Boreas, the god of the North Wind lived in Thrace, and therefore Hyperborea indicates a region that lay far to the north of Thrace. The earliest extant source that mentions Hyperborea and Hyperboreans in detail, are Herodotus's Histories.
Curiously, Hyperboreans were in Antique times rather identified with Celtic Peoples, like Gauls, and Brittons, with Hyperborea being identified with Britain in multiple ancient writtings.
From what I know, only during late Medieval, and Early Modern times, did Norse and Germannic peoples started to be commonly identified with Hyperboreans, although seeing the vagueness of the original descriptions, it wasn't inhertly bad logic.
The identification of Hyperboreans with Proto-Ido-Europeans and/or Aryans, originated probably in writtings by Bal Gangadhar Tilak("The Arctic Home in the Vedas", published in 1903) as well as the Austro-Hungarian ethnologist Karl Penka ("Origins of the Aryans", published in 1883).
Those writtings probably in turn directly or indirectly, inspired H.P. Lovecraft, Robert Howard, and Clark Ashton Smith. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 19 Jan 2016 : 14:59:21
Lovecraft and Howard always played with one another's universe. And I always thought of the Uthgardt as the Conan-inspired Realms barbarians, but this link with Stygia - and I think I read somewhere that Thay was even more of a Stygia than Mulhorand - is really cool.  |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 19 Jan 2016 : 12:06:09
Ah yes. HP Lovecraft did love talking about those Hyperboreans, the Atlanteans, and who can forget the hype about Primeval Thule? And there's also Leng.
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| The Emerald Sage |
Posted - 16 Jan 2016 : 20:21:50
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
[quote]Originally posted by Kentinal
And thirdly, curiosly, many of the countries in Conan the Barbarian are based on reall life historical countries, but in a clever way, as Conan ad Kull stories actually take place on Earth's past.
Stygia was invaded by the Vanir, with populations merging and finally developed into Egypt, some Shemites and Turanians merged culturally into Sumerians, while those who did not developed overtime into Semitic and Turkish peoples.
Part of Cimmerians overtime became Celts, while the rest of Cimmerians mixed with Hyboreans, Aesir and Vanir into Germanic peoples etc.
I think this particular field of historical study was more in vogue during the early part of the twentieth century but it was hugely influential - influencing not just Howard but also possibly H.P. Lovecraft aswell. Also presumably shaping much of Tolkien's middle-earth and somewhat uncomfortably, much of Nazi ideology and the aryan supremacy theories that circulated at the time.
My generation unfortunately knows very little about this. Where did the concept of Hyperborea come from and what was the historical resource that scholars looked to? Admittedly some were fantasists but I'm guessing there must be some records that people looked to. Where would an interested person begin? |
| Baltas |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 14:21:50
Well, obviously Rashemen isn't a 100% carbon copy, or even obvious analogue of a reall world culture or country, but it still takes some inspiration from reall life countries and cultures, as does Raumathar and the Gurs.
Again, it's just visible in that the stuation with Rus Illuskan/Northmen tribe and Rashemen, is very reminiscent to that of the Rus' Viking tribe, and Russia. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Jan 2016 : 23:45:24
Without trying to compare it to real world, lets face it, the Rashemi come from several distinct cultures.
First, the people of Ashanath/Shandalaur were right across Lake Tirulag. I'd assume that those cultures mixed, especially since Ashanath seems to have been a culture involved with gates and trading. Then, there was Raumathar, which appears to have been a culture which embraced "elemental magic" and "battlemages", so I'm seeing a very nature oriented culture which embraced combat. They also apparently embraced "techno-magic" in the form of automaton guardians, which I relate to two different ages of their culture. The hordelands boxed set also hints that the Raumathar empire's rise may have been with refugees of Imaskar (but it doesn't say they were Mulan, and it does say that the Imaskari empire extended as far as present day Thay). Then Raumathar fell, and the hordes of the hordelands (the Suren) swept through their empire and Narfell's empire. Then the Rus show up in Rashemen, which is an Illuskan/northman culture. Then, throw into all of this that the people of the area have also interbred with the spiritfolk and the hags/hagspawn.
So, in the end, I'd call them simply a mixed culture and not try to make them fit any cookie cutter real world Archetype. They do appear to be a dusky skinned people with darker hair, and their brand of "fey" worship tends to be darker than that which you would find in say the Moonshaes. I'd not be surprised to find the witches using blood magics and such. I think of them as good witches, but not necessarily being bound by our moral values. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 22:20:06
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Well don't forget that Indo-European cultures are going to have a lot of subtle similarities anyway.
Also, important to remember that while Gurs come from Rashemen, the real life Romani are an ethnic group of South Asian/Indian/Pakistani origin. Clearly the Gurs & Vistani are meant to *look* like Romani, which means they have Indian-type features. I remember reading there is a linguistic link between Durpari and Raumvari etc. so ponentially there could be something there. I think stuff like this is often why it's best to have a few clear-ish real world analogues.
Indeed, but another interesting point, is that reall life Baltic and Slavic languages are relativelly closelly related at their core to Indo-Iranian languages, ancluding Romani languages, as all are considered Satem languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum_and_satem_languages#Satem_languages
But again, I do agree Raumvari are something of a Scytho-Sarmatian-Romani mix, and Gurs are pretty remiscent, and rather certainly based on Romani people.
[EDIT]
Also, if we further analise with the Romani angle with Rashemi and Raumviran, there are other similarities and interesting stuff to note.
A very interesting figure among Roma is Saint Sarah, or Kali Sarah, a saint revered by Christian Romani, who is regarded by them as their patron. Kali Sarah is though to be derived from the Goddess Kali, adopted as a Saint.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sarah
Bizarrely, Kali was seen Chaotic Evil in D&D, despite better fitting into True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good, although the misconception Kali is an Evil Goddess, is saddly an often one, as seen for example in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Rashemi have also curiously out an important focus on goddess worship, with the Three in Rashemen, and Selune among Gurs.
The Three also resemble the Triune Goddess Kali as a part of - Parvati-Durga-Kali, as well as the Trimurti.
(another entity similar to The Three is the Slavic God Triglav, but Triglav himself was noted to be reminiscent of Hindu and Vedic trinities)
The Romani's original lands may had been found around the very ancient Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, with Raumathar being possibly an analoue of sorts towards the two. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 22:11:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Roseweave odds are very good that a mix of real world ideas went into the descriptions. They and the Realms are not designed to replicate Earth people or countries. The Rashemen are most likely a combination of parts of Romani and Eskimo. There also can be added all sorts of fantasy that has nothing to due to Real World peoples or cultures.
Yes I agree largelly, but still, anazying Rashemen's possible reall world inspirations, one can get better understanding whatpossibly went into it's creation, not to mention, get some interesting new ideas.
quote:
Originally posted by The Emerald Sage
I would echo this sentiment and suggest that the predominant influence behind the germination of Rashemen was the Conan the Barbarian fiction by Robert E. Howard. That's the feel I get from the region. Maybe Ed looked to that pulp genre and developed it into something unique to the realms.
Interesting for several points you brough up Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age setting.
One is that you may be very right, as for example Set the Serpent God, was worshipped in Ed's home ealms in Mulhorand, exacly like in Conan's Stygia.
Second, one review of the Unapproachable East mentioned how much of it's material, could be repurposed in a Hyborian Age game/setting.
And thirdly, curiosly, many of the countries in Conan the Barbarian are based on reall life historical countries, but in a clever way, as Conan ad Kull stories actually take place on Earth's past.
Stygia was invaded by the Vanir, with populations merging and finally developed into Egypt, some Shemites and Turanians merged culturally into Sumerians, while those who did not developed overtime into Semitic and Turkish peoples.
Part of Cimmerians overtime became Celts, while the rest of Cimmerians mixed with Hyboreans, Aesir and Vanir into Germanic peoples etc.
|
| Roseweave |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 22:03:50
Well don't forget that Indo-European cultures are going to have a lot of subtle similarities anyway.
Also, important to remember that while Gurs come from Rashemen, the real life Romani are an ethnic group of South Asian/Indian/Pakistani origin. Clearly the Gurs & Vistani are meant to *look* like Romani, which means they have Indian-type features. I remember reading there is a linguistic link between Durpari and Raumvari etc. so ponentially there could be something there. I think stuff like this is often why it's best to have a few clear-ish real world analogues. |
| The Emerald Sage |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 18:52:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Roseweave odds are very good that a mix of real world ideas went into the descriptions. They and the Realms are not designed to replicate Earth people or countries. The Rashemen are most likely a combination of parts of Romani and Eskimo. There also can be added all sorts of fantasy that has nothing to due to Real World peoples or cultures.
I would echo this sentiment and suggest that the predominant influence behind the germination of Rashemen was the Conan the Barbarian fiction by Robert E. Howard. That's the feel I get from the region. Maybe Ed looked to that pulp genre and developed it into something unique to the realms. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 04:05:58
Good point, but that's because I personally view Netheril(and other Ulou folk like Ride Barbarians), Damara, Vaasa and Moonsea as more analogous to Baltic peoples and nations, as Netherese, Loross, and all Ulou langues were directly compared as analogous to Baltic languages, as seen from Thomas M. Costa's excelent article "Speaking in Tongues".
But again, one could also see indeed strong similarities to Baltic peoples among Rashemi and Sossirim, so it's indeed unfortunate I negleced to mention it. Especially if we go along with Markustay's, Dazzlerdal's and others' take, which connects Gur, Gurri, Netherese and Rashemi.
And about my name, yes it's connected to Baltic peoples, but took it on it connecting to a possibly primorrdial root word for the name of the God Baldur/Baldr. But again, this root word was almost certainly derived from the proto-Baltic language, and was absorbed/borrowed into proto-Germanic.
And indeed, Slavs are a very mixed group. Even at our begginings, it's very probable Slavic nations were a result of mixing of various nations, as discussed above, although there is strong evidence there was a proper proto-Slavic element that helped Slavs to emerge as group(of nations, languages and cultures) of their own.
[EDIT]
Also, Poles have a very high occurence of the R1a1 Y-DNA haplogroup(51%), which was researched to be very often appearing among Indo-Iranian Sarmatians and proto-Germans/Old Germans like Vandals, possibly giving some credibility to the Medieval and Early Modern theories. Poles are though also VERY closelly related to Russians, as seen in this genetic map:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0SpYurc4dBM/Th6sOWSS3BI/AAAAAAAAAh0/BTplLmt8THs/s783/novembreplotao2%255B1%255D.jpg
PL is Poland/Polish, and RU is Russia/Russian.
Curiously, there is in Poland a legends of Poles, Czechs and Russians coming from three brothers, Lech(ancestor of Poles), Czech(ancestor of the Czech people), and Rus(ancestor of Russians). This obviously metaphorical, as the three countries got their names even in different ways. But curiously, in the Czech version of the same legend, there are only two brothers - Lech and Czech.
The Polish chronicler Jan Dlugosz, also listed Rus as not Lech's brother, but one of Lech's sons.
Slavic legends/myths and figures within them also have similarities to both Norse/Germanic ones, as well as Persian/Zoroastrian and Vedic ones.
For example, the Chief God Perun, known in Poland as Piorun, and among Baltic peoples Perkunas(Lithuanian: Perkunas, Latvian: Perkons, Old Prussian: Perkuns), has been noted to have very strong similarities to Thor/Donnar.
But Perun/Piorun/Perkunas resembles very much Parjanya a name/Aspect of the Vedic/Hindu Indra.
On the other hand, the infamous Slavic Hag/Crone, Baba Yaga, may be related to the Persian/Zoroastrian Jahi, and the Slavic dragons - Zmey, may be related, in both name and description to the Persian dragon/demon Azi-Dahaka/Zahhak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak
Pathfinder actually has a very interesting take on Baba Yaga, with her being a major backround character. She started out there as a Sarmatian woman from Earth, but became much more, becoming a figure of Slavic and other legends, and wandering among worlds, planes and the First World(the Equivalent of Faerie/Feywild in Pathfinder).
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Baba_Yaga |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 03:39:03
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, there is a number of influences. The Slavic, especially Russian ones are quite obvious, but there also Germanic/Norse influences, mos obvious in the Berserker lodges. Romans thought that the Germanic tribes were in reality lead by Witch-Priestess, which fits VERY the description of Rashemi society.
It's explained that the Rashemi culture and population are are partly descended from a tribe of Northmen/Illuskan - the Rus. This based on several historic, reall life facts, were the Norse Rus' tribe badically found Russia, even giving the country their name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people
German, or maybe also even Norse people could have hand in helping form other Slavic countries like Poland. The first well documented ruler of Poland - Mieszko, used the name Dagome, which may be the latinized form of the Norse name Dago.
Mieszko also most probably was the maternal grandfather of the king Canute the Great/Cnute the Great.
And don't forget the Baltic peoples too! (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) They were a culture caught between the Norse/Scandinavians, the Kievan Rus to the south, Poles to the West, Lapp/Finn to the far north, etc. And the Baltics were heavily influenced and to some degree co-opted in Prussia (German culture).
Funny I should be the one to mention the Baltics…. it's part of your name. LOL
I think that to get a sense of their culture, I would consider the Rashemi as a gross analogy to Rus/Slavic culturally. An ethnically mixed people. Heck, it's very easy for us to forget that many Slavs/Russians were ethnically mixed with the Mongols and Tatars. Even before the rising of the first strong czar Ivan the Terrible, Muscovy was nothing but a backwater vassal (yes, vassal!) that paid tribute to the Tatar khans of the Golden Horde. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 23:05:59
Well, there is a number of influences. The Slavic, especially Russian ones are quite obvious, but there also Germanic/Norse influences, mos obvious in the Berserker lodges. Romans thought that the Germanic tribes were in reality lead by Witch-Priestess, which fits VERY the description of Rashemi society.
It's explained that the Rashemi culture and population are are partly descended from a tribe of Northmen/Illuskan - the Rus. This based on several historic, reall life facts, were the Norse Rus' tribe badically found Russia, even giving the country their name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people
German, or maybe also even Norse people could have hand in helping form other Slavic countries like Poland. The first well documented ruler of Poland - Mieszko, used the name Dagome, which may be the latinized form of the Norse name Dago.
Mieszko also most probably was the maternal grandfather of the king Canute the Great/Cnute the Great.
Other legends stated Poles were desceded a least in part from Vandals(the same who sacked and looted Rome). Vandals did live indeed at the territory of Poland, but most researchers dismis Poles and our culture would be greatly descended from them.
Nevertheless, conteplorary to the time of early Poland German sources, called Mieszko the Duke of Vandals - "Dex Vandalorum" and other contemplorary sources did described Mieszko's death as "obiit Misica dex Vandalorum", - "Mieszko, the Duke of Vandals has died, according to German sources, and according to Gervase of Tilbury, early Poles(around Mieszko's time) called, and identified themselves as Vandals.
Yet other sources, and Early modern Polish Nobility, described themselves as descended from the Iranian Sarmatians.
Another early Medival theory, was that all Slaves are desceded from an integration of East Germans, and Iranian Scythians and Sarmatians. It has some historic basis, as again, the notorius Vandals are said to have combined and intermixed with Alans(a Scytho-Sarmatian tribe), to point the two tribes merged completely.
Again, those theories may be wrong in reall life, but quite probably may had inspired Rashemen.
If we go with theory Slaves are in part descended from Iranian tribes, it would make sense some Rashemi desceded groups like Gur, appear Roma/Romani-like.
Indeed Rashemi and Raumvirans, before they mixed with eachother and the Rus, do remind me of historic Iranian/Scytho-Sarmatian tribes.
The part were Rashemi reseble also somewhat Finns and Sami, well Finland was part of Russia for over a century, and quite a bit of western Russians have Finnish blood, and Finns have Russian blood in turn.
[EDIT]
Also, on Russia's territory, there is quite bit of peoples related to Eskimo, or even Eskimo, in Siberia.
[EDIT2]
It may be woth mentioning that Elaine Cunningham, who fleshed out Rashemen greatly in the Starlight & Shadows trillogy(Daughter of the Drow, Tangled Webs, and Windwalker) is Polish desent, and is a self descibed fan of Polish myth and legend, as well Slavic folklore in general, so Rashemen's connections to Russia, Poland and Slavic culture and history in general may be intentional. I guess one could ask her here on Candlekeep about this. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 22:34:07
Roseweave odds are very good that a mix of real world ideas went into the descriptions. They and the Realms are not designed to replicate Earth people or countries. The Rashemen are most likely a combination of parts of Romani and Eskimo. There also can be added all sorts of fantasy that has nothing to due to Real World peoples or cultures. |
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