| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 17 Oct 2015 : 22:27:14
Well we know the Srinshee showed Larloch a thing or two which shows just how powerful she is.
Now when the Trio Nefarious were laying waste to Myth Drannor, how come she didn't step forward and lay the Army of Darkness to waste? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Nov 2015 : 03:34:51
Of course its as deep and philosophical as all that. How do you know for sure? The fall of Myth Drannor was written by Steven, who has confirmed what we're telling you :P. Easy Peasy. On this topic, his word is the be all end all, unless Ed decides to chime in, which we all know is highly unlikely.
Go back and re-read it with an eye trained for those subtleties. There are TONS of little hints about things that could be - read between the lines and you'll see them too. The whole source book is one big campaign builder giving you a thousand different hand-holds to grab onto about the whys and wherefores and whatnots of Myth Drannor and how you can put your own campaign into it all. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 31 Oct 2015 : 12:57:29
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Eltargrim did not rule through power. At least, not in the bared-fist variant. Yes, he commanded the armies and wizards, but he didn't use them to enforce his rule. There are too many examples of him not doing so to count (but see for instance all of the people who came to protest, even commit arguable treason, during Elminster in Myth Drannor who he let leave unscathed.
Eltargrim ruled through respect, both of him personally, and of the institution of the Coronalship. His family had ruled Cormanthor since its founding, and by and large elves trusted him and his family.
The Shrinshee had no such power base. She was unknown to most, and those who did know her usually regarded her as one of the Coronal's troubleshooters (as in, shoot trouble until it's gone). She was chosen by the Rule Blade, so she might have been able to make it work, but she completely lacked the deep, institutional respect and deference that held all the factions at bay. She would have been a more polarizing ruler, and might have only accelerated the city's problems.
So is it not better to try and have failed then to not try and never know how it could have turned out?
I never said anything about Eltargrim needing to use his power, people knew just how powerful he was and how powerful were those people around him. Sometimes a battle can be won without ever needing to fire a shot. After he passed on, the evil nobles found their chance using the customs with regards to marrying his heir. I honestly don't think it's as deep and philosophical as you expect. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 23:58:51
^ This.
-- George Krashos |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 21:08:21
Eltargrim did not rule through power. At least, not in the bared-fist variant. Yes, he commanded the armies and wizards, but he didn't use them to enforce his rule. There are too many examples of him not doing so to count (but see for instance all of the people who came to protest, even commit arguable treason, during Elminster in Myth Drannor who he let leave unscathed.
Eltargrim ruled through respect, both of him personally, and of the institution of the Coronalship. His family had ruled Cormanthor since its founding, and by and large elves trusted him and his family.
The Shrinshee had no such power base. She was unknown to most, and those who did know her usually regarded her as one of the Coronal's troubleshooters (as in, shoot trouble until it's gone). She was chosen by the Rule Blade, so she might have been able to make it work, but she completely lacked the deep, institutional respect and deference that held all the factions at bay. She would have been a more polarizing ruler, and might have only accelerated the city's problems. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 20:56:00
So, in your mind Shadowsoul, a diamond with a flaw within is not a diamond at all? Look out. All the largest diamonds in the world just went from priceless to worthless.
By the way, Obi-wan was not saying he'd become a force ghost. He was saying his death would be the unending inspiration of the next generation of Jedi.
Seems to me as you have a slight, forest for the trees problem Shadow :) |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 06:00:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
And with its fall, Myth Drannor became not just a dream of one line of kings for their people, but a legend. In the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"
Put more poetically:
"Oh Lion in a peculiar guise,
Sharp Roman road to Paradise,
Come eat me up, I'll pay thy toll
With all my flesh, and keep my soul."
You aren't comparing like for like. Eltargrim believed everything was all good but it turned out to be a lie. That would be like Obi-wan saying that only to not come back as a force ghost. What's the difference between Eltargrim ruling over a city who's inhabitants stay in check because of his power and the Srinshee ruling until a suitable ruler appears? She could have slowly gotten rid of the evil nobles and made the city into something actually special instead of one big lie.
Letting it fall preserves nothing because in truth, there was nothing to begin with. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 23:32:53
And with its fall, Myth Drannor became not just a dream of one line of kings for their people, but a legend. In the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"
Put more poetically:
"Oh Lion in a peculiar guise,
Sharp Roman road to Paradise,
Come eat me up, I'll pay thy toll
With all my flesh, and keep my soul." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 17:40:48
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I like the line from the film gladiator that may apply in this instance.
"There once was a dream that was Rome, you could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish"
So the dream of myth drannor and the reality may have been very different, but that doesn't stop one dreaming.
Well you can't really see the dream come to light when the place is ravaged. Could have kept the city alive which would have kept the dream alive.
Ah, but if things continued the way they were, things would have continued to get bad, and likely ended the dream that way. As it was, there remained a hope of rebuilding Myth Drannor -- I believe it was even referred to in one of the sourcebooks, as a common saying in the Dales. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 17:16:02
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I like the line from the film gladiator that may apply in this instance.
"There once was a dream that was Rome, you could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish"
So the dream of myth drannor and the reality may have been very different, but that doesn't stop one dreaming.
Well you can't really see the dream come to light when the place is ravaged. Could have kept the city alive which would have kept the dream alive. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 16:48:38
I like the line from the film gladiator that may apply in this instance.
"There once was a dream that was Rome, you could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish"
So the dream of myth drannor and the reality may have been very different, but that doesn't stop one dreaming.
|
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 16:40:34
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The other part of thinking like an elf is belief in the afterlife and the Seldarine. In other words, dying isn't the end of the world. Its more important to save the soul of Myth Drannor than save its body.
The Tshaddarna is the plane/demiplane where the Elminster, a sister, and the Srinshee along with some of the Knights of Myth Drannor cut down a few dozen of Larloch's liches. As far as I know the short story George mentioned is the only time it has ever been mentioned anywhere.
Well if we want to get technical about it, the dream was nothing but an illusion. Obviously all the hatred and selfishness was there it was just held back by the might of Eltargrim. Basically how orc hoards usually operate. The Srinshee would have been better off assuming the role of regent until a proper ruler came to pass. The soul of Myth Drannor is just as corrupted now as it was then. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 13:59:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Its more important to save the soul of Myth Drannor than save its body.
Exactly my thinking and approach to the Srinshee re: Myth Drannor.
Steven |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 12:14:24
The other part of thinking like an elf is belief in the afterlife and the Seldarine. In other words, dying isn't the end of the world. Its more important to save the soul of Myth Drannor than save its body.
The Tshaddarna is the plane/demiplane where the Elminster, a sister, and the Srinshee along with some of the Knights of Myth Drannor cut down a few dozen of Larloch's liches. As far as I know the short story George mentioned is the only time it has ever been mentioned anywhere.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 06:43:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The who? I'm not finding Tshaddarna in any of the Myth Drannor/Cormanthyr pdfs that I have handy...
See Ed's short story "Tears so White" in Realms of the Elves.
-- George Krashos |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 06:35:41
Shadowsoul: No, the city was doomed either way. Probably doomed whatever happened, certainly doomed after Aravae was killed. This way it fell in such a way that it preserved Eltargrim's dream.
Remember, the Srinshee is an elf, and a very old one at that. She thinks in the long term. And she was right. An elven lifespan later, and Myth Drannor is back. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 01:00:12
I think the Tshaddarna was mentioned in a novel. I seem to recall the Shrinshee mentioning it to El and that she had become weaker during her time there. Sorry I can't recall the specifics. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 00:33:46
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Not everyone in Myth Drannor wanted the title for selfish reasons. They really threw the baby out with the bathwater.
True, but those that did want the title for selfish reasons would've murdered anyone who didn't and probably started a civil war.
Maybe if the city had been victorious in the Weeping War primarily because of N'Tel'Quess, things might have been different but that's not how it worked out. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 23:19:54
So basically the Srinshee let the city fall out of principle?
Not everyone in Myth Drannor wanted the title for selfish reasons. They really threw the baby out with the bathwater. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 21:51:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd always thought that the Srinshee was in the Tshaddarna after taking the Ruler's Blade, putting it there for safekeeping - just as she had done with the contents of the Vault of Ages 40 or so winters before. Time passes differently there, so after she had spent weeks or months ensuring the wards and magical safeguards for these greatest treasures of Myth Drannor, were intact and safe from the pryings of Larloch, Ioulaum and other beings of power back in those times, the city had fallen ...
-- George Krashos
The who? I'm not finding Tshaddarna in any of the Myth Drannor/Cormanthyr pdfs that I have handy... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 19:06:27
I'd always thought that the Srinshee was in the Tshaddarna after taking the Ruler's Blade, putting it there for safekeeping - just as she had done with the contents of the Vault of Ages 40 or so winters before. Time passes differently there, so after she had spent weeks or months ensuring the wards and magical safeguards for these greatest treasures of Myth Drannor, were intact and safe from the pryings of Larloch, Ioulaum and other beings of power back in those times, the city had fallen ...
-- George Krashos |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 07:24:55
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
While I object to the term "fall from grace," which I don't think fits the Realms, I agree with everything else TMM says.
While it certainly doesn't have the exact meaning as IRL, according to realms lore, the Mythal was blessed by Mystra, and the Elfblades by the Seldarine. As the elves proved unworthy "fell from grace" seems pretty appropriate in my book.
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 11:16:20
While I object to the term "fall from grace," which I don't think fits the Realms, I agree with everything else TMM says.
Myth Drannor was flying apart at the seams. Maybe if Aravae hadn't been assassinated, and had become Coronal quickly and without issue, she could have held things together. Maybe. Things hadn't yet come to a head, though they were fast getting there.
Remember that when the Srinshee claimed the blade, it came after a day of open civil war. Elves, humans, and dwarves were all killing each other in the streets, and many noble elves had been killed by the Rule Blade as unworthy. It was a bloody, terrible day that went against everything Eltargrim stood for.
So it's not really that surprising that the Srinshee left. She wanted the city to truly come together. As for not returning during the Fall, it's possible she decided to stay away deliberately. We don't know for certain (she could have been in stasis, or detains elsewhere). But think about what happened during the Fall: Myth Drannor became a symbol.
Yes, the city fell, yes lots of people died, but the dream remained. If the Srinshee thought that it was inevitable that the city would tear itself apart within a few decades (as seems at least possible from a reading of Fall of Myth Drannor), then she might have judged it better to let it fall fighting against an outside force. To become a legend, something to be held up as an example of the best the races can do together. Something other cities (notably Silverymoon) could dream of becoming.
Far better that than to become an object lesson that the races cannot work together, by being destroyed in endless civil wars. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 06:47:02
It definitely seems like some of the people commenting here have not read "The Fall Of Myth Drannor" in its entirety.
Myth Drannor was doomed for multiple reasons, and had been weakening for some time. The trio were only a part of it. One of those reasons was its fall from grace - which to me read very much like a deliberate homage to Rome, or perhaps even Babylon. This fall from grace was the reason the Srinshee left - and in truth, her departure was another symptom. Her return perhaps could have saved the city (though I'd argue she did not have that kind of power), or the lives of some of its defenders - but it could not have saved the souls of those who had become lazy, decadent, etc. People of powr had turned on each other, and in the end also turned on the city. Whole Clans fell from grace corrupted by demons and dark gods. However, the rise of the people of Myth Drannor to become heroes of the Weeping War, and their sacrifice in defense of the people of the city restored the city's honor, and won them all a place in their version of heaven.
As far as Ioulamm destroying a horde, its important to note that while 1000 orcs would be called a horde, so would a million. I even once played an Arcane Age Archmage in Netheril who did fight the hordes. There are a lot of ways to kill a lot of orcs (using spells, obviously, but I also dropped mountains on them, diverted rivers to drown them, open holes in the earth to swallow them and prevent their advance...) but when your magical might is exhausted and they just keep coming there is nothing you can do.
With all that said - there were many powerful individuals who crushed huge swaths of the Army of Darkness, only to be overrun by the hundreds of thousands in the horde. This includes a handful of chosen (those asking about Khelben and Elminster before should read the book, as the story of their victories and defeats are included), the Harpers at sunset (whose power pretty much makes the modern Harpers look like kids playing cowboys and Indians), the high magi of Cormanthor, etc.
They were beaten before the war ever started... it just took a couple years to figure that out.
As for your quote Shadowsoul - you forgot all the most important words... leave truncating quotes to politicians trying to get elected and idiots on the news - Candlekeep Scribes should never do it!
"Look not for me to rule the realm, people, or Court. Look for me to rule war and hate with peace and love.
When the dream truly becomes your own, I shall return. When elf and N'Tel'Quess alike truly accept the gift, I shall return.
When Oacenth's Vow is fulfilled in the stars above and below, I shall return.
When I am wanted truly, I shall return. When I am needed truly, I shall return."
That doesn't mean when she is wanted to once again strike down their enemies and protect them as she has done over and over. She has shown them peace and love and it is up to them to follow that path. It means when they (as a whole) want her guidance, when they embrace the precepts that she stands for. Also, before anyone asks, Oacenth's Vow was that they become one people, that "sun and moon, sky and sea, earth, tree, and root" must be one (anyone who cant see the symbolism there should be reading more about the elves of the realms. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 20 Oct 2015 : 22:57:27
Words from the Srinshee. "When I am wanted truly, I shall return. When I am needed
truly, I shall return."
Seems to me like she was severely needed during the war with the Army of Darkness. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 20 Oct 2015 : 20:08:50
Sounds to me like the full story of Myth Drannor didn't come to fruition until after it was a ruin. I guess Ed created the ruin first and then the story of it's beginning came along. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 19 Oct 2015 : 11:48:45
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
After the Rule Tower was destroyed in 666 DR, the Srinshee abandoned Myth Drannor, taking Ar'Cor'Kerym and four High Mages with her. She wouldn't return until a suitable new ruler would take over the city, but that didn't happen until 1377.
"I have proven worthy, but... Coronal I will not be. I shall not rule from the Throne but from the Heart.
"Look not for me to rule the realm, people, or Court. Look for me to rule war and hate with peace and love.
"When the dream truly becomes your own, I shall return. When elf and N'Tel'Quess alike truly accept the gift, I shall return.
"When Oacenth's Vow is fulfilled in the stars above and below, I shall return.
"When I am wanted truly, I shall return. When I am needed truly, I shall return.
"Peoples, attend me. Look ye upon my work and dare to hope."
- The Fall of Myth Drannor
What "new ruler"?
It's the other way around: new Coronal is chosen by the Ruler's Blade.
Which is carried by Srinshee.
Who will return when she thinks they finally learned to behave in the ways that won't make having anything to do with this crowd deeply embarrassing.
The new ruler was Isvele Miritar. After Scyllua Darkhope was defeated, the Srinshee reappeared. She offered Ar'Cor'Kerym to Isvele and the blade accepted her, making Isvele the official new Coronal, instead of merely the leader of the army in control of the city.
Clearly the Srinshee had no intention to rule, she just couldn't abide watching sun elf supremacists mess up the ideals that her best friend's family worked so hard to enact. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Oct 2015 : 11:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
As Wooly has said, the Fall of Myth Drannor book (technically an adventure, but really a sourcebook) lays out what Khelben and Elminster were doing during the initial Fall. They both fought throughout the early parts of the war.
At the battle of Silversgate, Kelben and Elminster ended up driving a large segment of the Army of Darkness through the gate from Myth Drannor to a pass outside Silverymoon. Khelben nearly got himself torn in two by the yugoloth officer, and spent the rest of the war recovering. Elminster closed the Silversgate from the inside to protect Silverymoon, and was lost among the planes for a time. He didn't make it back until after the war was over as well.
That was Krash, not myself.  |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 19 Oct 2015 : 10:55:55
As Wooly has said, the Fall of Myth Drannor book (technically an adventure, but really a sourcebook) lays out what Khelben and Elminster were doing during the initial Fall. They both fought throughout the early parts of the war.
At the battle of Silversgate, Kelben and Elminster ended up driving a large segment of the Army of Darkness through the gate from Myth Drannor to a pass outside Silverymoon. Khelben nearly got himself torn in two by the yugoloth officer, and spent the rest of the war recovering. Elminster closed the Silversgate from the inside to protect Silverymoon, and was lost among the planes for a time. He didn't make it back until after the war was over as well. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 19 Oct 2015 : 04:39:06
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
After the Rule Tower was destroyed in 666 DR, the Srinshee abandoned Myth Drannor, taking Ar'Cor'Kerym and four High Mages with her. She wouldn't return until a suitable new ruler would take over the city, but that didn't happen until 1377.
"I have proven worthy, but... Coronal I will not be. I shall not rule from the Throne but from the Heart.
"Look not for me to rule the realm, people, or Court. Look for me to rule war and hate with peace and love.
"When the dream truly becomes your own, I shall return. When elf and N'Tel'Quess alike truly accept the gift, I shall return.
"When Oacenth's Vow is fulfilled in the stars above and below, I shall return.
"When I am wanted truly, I shall return. When I am needed truly, I shall return.
"Peoples, attend me. Look ye upon my work and dare to hope."
- The Fall of Myth Drannor
What "new ruler"?
It's the other way around: new Coronal is chosen by the Ruler's Blade.
Which is carried by Srinshee.
Who will return when she thinks they finally learned to behave in the ways that won't make having anything to do with this crowd deeply embarrassing.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Also can't remember how long Elminster was in Stasis for. he awakened from it in 759.
Yup, he was on dust catcher duty at the time. Azuth later hinted that it was part of the plan, IIRC. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Oct 2015 : 03:01:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
And we've all had it beaten into our heads that nobody can handle the Weave except for Mystra (though a mortal mage named Midnight who was unfit to steam the robes of Karsus or Larloch handled it just fine).
Karsus killed himself and destroyed a nation thru pure hubris. I fail to understand the insistence that someone who knew he wasn't worthy somehow was better than anyone else.
As for Midnight, it is my personal theory -- and Ed has indicated I was on to something, with it -- that Midnight is a descendant of Mystryl. We've seen multiple prior cases where descent from a deity of magic facilitates greater handling of that magic -- so it's possible that Midnight was a descendant of Mystryl and likely would have become something extraordinary even without the Time of Troubles and the death of Mystra 1.0. |
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