| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 07:13:10
Should it be canon that Epic level Monks can transcend death to become immortal celestial beings?
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| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 05:11:11
I think it would just happen naturally, even if the person wasn't looking for it or didn't want it.
I think gods do sponsor mortals to godhood, but that might just be a game they play. Since they are going to be choosing from likely candidates anyway, those would be people already heading in that direction (power-wise), and it could be as simple as a god promising a mortal 'sponsorship', just to cut a deal with them and have them as an under-god once they ascend (which boosts their own power).
So yeah, I think the whole 'deity' thing is just one, big pyramid-scheme.  |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 22:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
YES, but only in that ALL epic-level characters should be csider semi-divine. Why should it be unique to monks, just because it was part of the early rules?
I had adopted the system used in Dark Sun's Dragon Kings supplement. I forget the precise set of steps, but it went something like this...
At level 20 you were consider 'at gods door' (or some such). Your fame (or infamy) was so great that you began to generate a 'divine glow' about you (in some older minis games, this would be considered 'superhero' status). In DS,at level 21 you gained your 'advanced form' - they had it where levels 21-29 each had progressively greater forms, and at level 30, you attained 'godhood'.
I borrowed from this and made it more generic for any setting - levels 20-24 you were 'super human' (began transcendence; considered DvR '0')). Mortal levels 25-29 would be the equal of Divine Ranks (DvR) 1-5. At level 30 a character becomes a Lesser God.
I extrapolated this outward and had a 5-level tier between each divine tier. Lets see if I can piece it back together (from memory, from a really old post over at the WotC forums):
Level (ages given for human equivalents)
0 - Born into this world (Baby/toddler)
1 - Child (ages 3-12)
2 - adolescent/young adult (ages 13-16)
3 - Adulthood (ages 17,18)
4 - Professional (in some area of expertise)
5-9 - Superior specimen
10-14 - Amazing example
15-19 - 'Hero' (or 'anti-hero')
20-24 - Ascendant/DvR 0 (you've now 'caught the attention' of the gods, if you hadn't already)
25-29 - Demi-power (demigod, Exarch, DvR 1-5)
30-39 - Lower god (DvR 6-10)
40-49 - Intermediate god (DvR 11-15)
50-59 - Greater god (DvR 16-20)
'Elder gods'
60 - 'High God'/ DvR 21 (usually a pantheonic leader, or a power with global control, like Mystra).
61-69 - 'Overgod'
70-79 - Sidereal
80-89 - Eternal
90-99 - Supernal
100 - GOD(Greatest Over-Deity)/Supreme Being
But there's lots of 'fuzzy lines', dependent upon domains, etc. A High God is considered on the threshold of Overgod-hood, and is the equivalent of DvR 0 in the godly tiers, so maybe something like 'ER 0' (Elder Rank). The Supernals would be the sentience of a plane itself, and there are only 11 (until we come up with something better than M-theory). They represent Time, Space, Matter, Gravity, etc. Also, in regards to the ages - I start everyone off at level 3 (unless they want to start lower), because I think it makes much more sense within D&D to do so. When I was working on a bunch of stuff for The Hordelands, I realized that underage people needed levels - it was the only way to properly represent horse warriors being trained since they were children. Then I realized that the this should really be the case for everyone - it makes no sense that a toddler was the same 'power' as a teenager in standard D&D, hence, I adopted this system, which meshed beautifully with what I had been doing since 1e (starting folks at lev.3). It also helps me figure-out what sort of skill levels NPC's should have, because I also created a corresponding Age/D&D level table.
Boiling this down to a Judaeo-Christian equivalent, we'd have:
D&D Biblical Celestial Tier
Exarch Angel
Lesser god Archangel 1st Choir
Intermediate god Principality
Greater God Power
High God Virtue 2nd Choir
Overgod Domination
Sidereal Throne
Eternal Cherubim 3rd Choir
Supernal Seraphim
Thus, an archangel like Michael would be a match for a lesser god in D&D (sounds about right, methinks). 
DISCLAIMER: This is ALL within the context of D&D, and the D&D Earth, NOT the 'real world'. Please do not be offended by any similarities between this and RW religion. 
Interesting but how would you explain a high level epic Fighter type achieving immortality? It would have to come from an outside source? Or are you saying that veneration for his deeds would grant him life force? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 19:49:15
YES, but only in that ALL epic-level characters should be csider semi-divine. Why should it be unique to monks, just because it was part of the early rules?
I had adopted the system used in Dark Sun's Dragon Kings supplement. I forget the precise set of steps, but it went something like this...
At level 20 you were consider 'at gods door' (or some such). Your fame (or infamy) was so great that you began to generate a 'divine glow' about you (in some older minis games, this would be considered 'superhero' status). In DS,at level 21 you gained your 'advanced form' - they had it where levels 21-29 each had progressively greater forms, and at level 30, you attained 'godhood'.
I borrowed from this and made it more generic for any setting - levels 20-24 you were 'super human' (began transcendence; considered DvR '0')). Mortal levels 25-29 would be the equal of Divine Ranks (DvR) 1-5. At level 30 a character becomes a Lesser God.
I extrapolated this outward and had a 5-level tier between each divine tier. Lets see if I can piece it back together (from memory, from a really old post over at the WotC forums):
Level (ages given for human equivalents)
0 - Born into this world (Baby/toddler)
1 - Child (ages 3-12)
2 - adolescent/young adult (ages 13-16)
3 - Adulthood (ages 17,18)
4 - Professional (in some area of expertise)
5-9 - Superior specimen
10-14 - Amazing example
15-19 - 'Hero' (or 'anti-hero')
20-24 - Ascendant/DvR 0 (you've now 'caught the attention' of the gods, if you hadn't already)
25-29 - Demi-power (demigod, Exarch, DvR 1-5)
30-39 - Lower god (DvR 6-10)
40-49 - Intermediate god (DvR 11-15)
50-59 - Greater god (DvR 16-20)
'Elder gods'
60 - 'High God'/ DvR 21 (usually a pantheonic leader, or a power with global control, like Mystra).
61-69 - 'Overgod'
70-79 - Sidereal
80-89 - Eternal
90-99 - Supernal
100 - GOD(Greatest Over-Deity)/Supreme Being
But there's lots of 'fuzzy lines', dependent upon domains, etc. A High God is considered on the threshold of Overgod-hood, and is the equivalent of DvR 0 in the godly tiers, so maybe something like 'ER 0' (Elder Rank). The Supernals would be the sentience of a plane itself, and there are only 11 (until we come up with something better than M-theory). They represent Time, Space, Matter, Gravity, etc. Also, in regards to the ages - I start everyone off at level 3 (unless they want to start lower), because I think it makes much more sense within D&D to do so. When I was working on a bunch of stuff for The Hordelands, I realized that underage people needed levels - it was the only way to properly represent horse warriors being trained since they were children. Then I realized that the this should really be the case for everyone - it makes no sense that a toddler was the same 'power' as a teenager in standard D&D, hence, I adopted this system, which meshed beautifully with what I had been doing since 1e (starting folks at lev.3). It also helps me figure-out what sort of skill levels NPC's should have, because I also created a corresponding Age/D&D level table.
Boiling this down to a Judaeo-Christian equivalent, we'd have:
D&D Biblical Celestial Tier
Exarch Angel
Lesser god Archangel 1st Choir
Intermediate god Principality
Greater God Power
High God Virtue 2nd Choir
Overgod Domination
Sidereal Throne
Eternal Cherubim 3rd Choir
Supernal Seraphim
Thus, an archangel like Michael would be a match for a lesser god in D&D (sounds about right, methinks).
DISCLAIMER: This is ALL within the context of D&D, and the D&D Earth, NOT the 'real world'. Please do not be offended by any similarities between this and RW religion. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 Nov 2016 : 15:40:33
I wonder if Kane is still progressing? Perhaps he is a Quasi-Diety now, and has all the time in the would to continue to evolve into something even greater? |
| Delwa |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 21:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gurgle Gobblespit
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I agree with Wooly, but isn't it the case that because it happened in literature that's considered canon, that it is by definition something that can canonically happen? >_>
"Can it happen" and "should it be guaranteed to happen" are two different things.
If it can happen in canon lore/literature, then naturally it opens the possibility that it can also happen to PCs in the game. The DM of course has the final say.
Then again, I would advice against any (sane) DM going around and promising their Players that they could transcend to immortality once they reach certain epic levels.
Here is a perfect analogy. If you were an (experienced) DM, would you think it wise to promise your Players that their Necromancer characters would be allowed to become liches and demi-liches once they reach epic levels? Uhhh I don't think it wise to promise that. Nor should it ever be a guarantee that they would succeed. Does it mean that such possibility is out of the question? No. If a DM was willing to allow it, and the PC worked hard and planned meticulously to achieve such an ambitious long-term goal…. then it could be a possibility.
But a good DM, a challenging DM, should always make such goals (attempting to become one of the immortals) not within easy reach, and should be something that is paid for by tons of hard work, a lot of blood, a high price, a lot of sacrifice, and possibly fraught with epic-level danger.
All of this my opinion, of course. So take my IMHOs with a grain of salt.
I'll second this. Just because one character, canon or not, becomes something doesn't mean it's a shoe-in for any PC to become that same thing. Elminster is a Chosen of Mystra. That doesn't mean any PC can become one. That's something the player and the DM have to agree on.
If I had a PC come to me and say they want their Monk character to become a celestial being, I'd certainly allow it as a possibility, but only if their character lives long enough and makes the right choices in life. I'll plan scenarios that allow choices that would lead them down that path, but I'm not going to hang a sign or pass the player a note saying, "hint hint, you need to take up this plot point in order to get where you said you wanted to go at character creation." If they don't put the effort into making character choices that lead to Celestial Immortality, then they aren't going to get it, and I'm not going to be sorry.
There's a difference between roleplay rewards and leveling up. Leveling up essentially is a reward you get for killing or surviving enough monsters and foes and living to tell the tale. Roleplay rewards are benefits you get for living to tell the tale in a particular way that isn't necessarily tied to your class or race. (The line gets blurry with classes like the Paladin.) In the case of the Monk, leveling up rewards mean at higher levels, you gain things like the Timeless Body ability (in 5e) that means you don't suffer any penalty stats wise for aging, and you no longer need food and water to survive. However, you still will die when you reach the maximum expected lifespan of your race. Becoming truly immortal would be a roleplay reward, something a DM might reward you with if you play your cards right. It's not for sure.
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| Gurgle Gobblespit |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 20:23:25
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I agree with Wooly, but isn't it the case that because it happened in literature that's considered canon, that it is by definition something that can canonically happen? >_>
"Can it happen" and "should it be guaranteed to happen" are two different things.
If it can happen in canon lore/literature, then naturally it opens the possibility that it can also happen to PCs in the game. The DM of course has the final say.
Then again, I would advice against any (sane) DM going around and promising their Players that they could transcend to immortality once they reach certain epic levels.
Here is a perfect analogy. If you were an (experienced) DM, would you think it wise to promise your Players that their Necromancer characters would be allowed to become liches and demi-liches once they reach epic levels? Uhhh I don't think it wise to promise that. Nor should it ever be a guarantee that they would succeed. Does it mean that such possibility is out of the question? No. If a DM was willing to allow it, and the PC worked hard and planned meticulously to achieve such an ambitious long-term goal…. then it could be a possibility.
But a good DM, a challenging DM, should always make such goals (attempting to become one of the immortals) not within easy reach, and should be something that is paid for by tons of hard work, a lot of blood, a high price, a lot of sacrifice, and possibly fraught with epic-level danger.
All of this my opinion, of course. So take my IMHOs with a grain of salt. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 19:29:52
Aye, I have most epic monks becoming wanderers on Toril, then the planes. A few years of planar wandering usually precedes their eventual ascension. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 17:58:11
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Should it be canon that Epic level Monks can transcend death to become immortal celestial beings?
Yes. Spellcasters and divine servants of all stripes (priests, wizards, paladins, bards, warlocks, etc.) have numerous ways to cheat death. I don't see why cheating death should be completely off limits to martial classes. Monks already focus on transcending the physical, mental, and emotional limitations of mortal races, so I think that transcending the need to die is a natural progression of that. I do think that, like lichdom, this should only be achievable by monks who are exceptionally powerful.
On something of a side note, FR is a high magic setting. I love that about it, because it provides possibilities for authors and roleplayers to do anything they can imagine. That said, it makes characters who don't rely heavily on magic or gods (like my main man Artemis Entreri) stand out that much more as being impressive. While many (perhaps most) FR monks do serve gods, and some do use magic (like Hessar in Shadowbane: Eye of Justice), their powers come mostly from their training of their own bodies and minds. To make immortality achievable without any help from magic or deities would make it a feat that is truly without equal, and it stands as a great ultimate goal for monks. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 16:27:11
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Should it be canon that Epic level Monks can transcend death to become immortal celestial beings?
Sure. It's a fantasy world full of magic and amazing things. |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 16:15:38
I agree with Wooly, but isn't it the case that because it happened in literature that's considered canon, that it is by definition something that can canonically happen? >_> |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 15:25:10
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Should it be canon that Epic level Monks can transcend death to become immortal celestial beings?
I would say no, if only to keep PCs from wanting to do that. |
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