| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 17:44:24
As many of you know, initially, I hadn't really cared years ago about the loss of Leira over Cyric, but in the last fifteen years... I've really warmed up to the goddess of illusions. I've also liked the various discussions we've had about how beliefs in certain gods by mortals change them.
This makes me think that certain portfolios MAY in fact be very powerful for a god to have, BUT they may come with consequences that the god/goddess may not actually enjoy. For instance, a god of lies... everyone lies.... this could be a source of a LOT of power. However, what if the consequence of being the god of lies is that one starts to lose one's hold on reality. It should be noted that many of Leira's followers are a bit on the insane side as well. So, what if Leira didn't know what she was getting into when she took on the portfolio of lies.... or what if the portfolio of lies was forced upon her? The below is just a working hypothesis that I'd gladly like to hear other people's reworking of to make for a better story.
In the early years following the start of the calendar of Dalereckoning, a fey deity of illusions named Leira (full name something like Leirathalar) was making inroads to gather human worshippers within the Chondathan / Talfirian pantheon. Perhaps she was even involved as a goddess of deceiving mind magics with the Jhaamdathi. She ends up getting involved with a god of thievery in said same pantheon (said deity being Mask), and the two develop a kind of "love working with you" relationship.
So, there's a deity named Valigan Thirdborn, who is a deity of Chaos and of various other portfolios including lies and intrigue. Leira and Mask decide to work a plot against Valigan Thirdborn to "steal" his portfolios (thereby proving Mask to be the greatest thief ever and Leira the master of deception). Whatever they do (could make a good story), it actually ends up with the death of Valigan. Leira ends up with the portolios of Chaos and lies (and maybe other stuff). Mask ends up with the portfolio of intrigue. However, Leira begins to realize that having the portfolio of lies comes with some drastic personality changing issues. So, she hatches a plot wherein she lays the groundwork to get three relatively newly risen deities to steal the tablets of fate.... by providing them lies about what kind of power the tablets have.... and she possibly does this with the full knowledge of Ao, who possibly sees this as her fulfilling her own duties as a goddess of lies.... with the idea that she will fake her own death in order to force the lies portfolio onto an unsuspecting dupe (through an illusion which tranforms herself into the Cyrinishad)... all with the aid of her love, Mask...
Decent story? Any improvements to be made? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Sep 2015 : 04:41:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But if no one is singing the praises of dungeons, does Shar lose power by ignoring the portfolio?
And Oghma holds the portfolio of invention -- but everyone thinks of Gond as the inventor. So Oghma is definitely not getting that worship. It doesn't seem to bother him, since he's not paying any attention to it.
And this may be an instance of Gond eventually stealing this portfolio from Oghma, but through "peaceful" means. This could also be a sign of the weakness of Oghma as well, because he spread himself kind of thin in many directions, and there are deities who more directly fill his roles that could rise up and take his portfolios. For instance, Milil as god of bards, Deneir as a knowledge/history deity, and Gond as lord or invention. Not that I want to see Oghma disappear mind you, but he could be threatened by the success of his underlings.... and those underlings COULD find other masters who would gladly support him (Deneir and Milil could easily report to Mystra... and Milil would also fit well under Sune). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2015 : 03:38:15
But if no one is singing the praises of dungeons, does Shar lose power by ignoring the portfolio?
And Oghma holds the portfolio of invention -- but everyone thinks of Gond as the inventor. So Oghma is definitely not getting that worship. It doesn't seem to bother him, since he's not paying any attention to it. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 14:32:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Wooly. Please. Last time I checked, this was a pretendy fun time game of imagination. Many descriptions of gods, NPCs, even cities are not going to be lifelike-complete.
Proof that a deity cares about a particular thing, aka portfolio, is simply in the fact that it's LISTED on their description. If you require an example of every single portfolio being actively demonstrated in some sourcebook or novel, then you are being extremely pedantic.
This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen on these boards. It's in their description - if novels or sourcebooks happen to focus on one particular side of a deity or whatever, that's expected - it's not some clever sign, pregnant with meaning, suggesting that other aspects don't matter.
It's akin to suggesting that a parent only loves one of their children and ignores all the others because you happened to attend one child's graduation but none of the others so you didn't see them fawning over the other kids.
Good bloody grief. 
Just because they hold something doesn't mean they have an interest in it. I can solder electronics well enough to hold a job doing so -- but just because I have that skill doesn't mean I ever had any interest in it.
We don't know how all of these deities got their portfolios. Mielikki may have absorbed a lesser deity of the woods, for example, and gotten the dryads portfolio along with it. Talos may have slain a deity for his destruction portfolio, and took the rebellion one from that same deity.
So no, simply holding a portfolio is not any kind of proof of interest in it.
And I'm getting really tired of the insulting nature of your posts. You don't agree with me, that's fine -- don't be insulting about it, though.
I have to disagree with you wooly, just because we don't see them act out all of their duties it doesn't mean that they shirk their responsibilities. In general, no god wants to lose any part of a portfolio if it means losing power. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 05:22:38
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Wooly. Please. Last time I checked, this was a pretendy fun time game of imagination. Many descriptions of gods, NPCs, even cities are not going to be lifelike-complete.
Proof that a deity cares about a particular thing, aka portfolio, is simply in the fact that it's LISTED on their description. If you require an example of every single portfolio being actively demonstrated in some sourcebook or novel, then you are being extremely pedantic.
This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen on these boards. It's in their description - if novels or sourcebooks happen to focus on one particular side of a deity or whatever, that's expected - it's not some clever sign, pregnant with meaning, suggesting that other aspects don't matter.
It's akin to suggesting that a parent only loves one of their children and ignores all the others because you happened to attend one child's graduation but none of the others so you didn't see them fawning over the other kids.
Good bloody grief.
Just because they hold something doesn't mean they have an interest in it. I can solder electronics well enough to hold a job doing so -- but just because I have that skill doesn't mean I ever had any interest in it.
We don't know how all of these deities got their portfolios. Mielikki may have absorbed a lesser deity of the woods, for example, and gotten the dryads portfolio along with it. Talos may have slain a deity for his destruction portfolio, and took the rebellion one from that same deity.
So no, simply holding a portfolio is not any kind of proof of interest in it.
And I'm getting really tired of the insulting nature of your posts. You don't agree with me, that's fine -- don't be insulting about it, though. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 02:32:10
Sleyvas,
Looking at your second to last post again, I begin to wonder if there isn't a lesser aspect of Deneir that is worshipped, or at least prayed to, by those who work within a bureaucracy.
Sort of like how there is Tyr and Iltyr.
I think it would be interesting if a powerful cleric of Deneir came along to champion this aspect, who joined forces with a sect that were once Mystrans, but years ago turned to Deneir after Mystra fell, especially if those worshippers were big on symbols and similar.
This way Deneir's attainment of Bureaucracy and Symbols could happen through the efforts of mortal worshippers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 02:21:50
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd love to see Deneir become one of Mystra's "gods of magic" over symbol magic, but also his being a god of scribes just fits also being a god of bureaucracy.
This idea appeals to me.
Gets Deneir out from under Oghma's shadow, too.
This sort of transition (or revelation, if you think it ought to have happened already without anybody knowing--perhaps while Mystra was down for the count and Deneir had a century to take up where Mystra was lacking) is similar to what we were presented with in Elminster's Guide to the Realms.
I wonder which other deities went for a "soft takeover" of Mystra's wide-ranging portfolio during her absence?
Yeah, I'd personally like to see a whole team of these lesser deities who are serving multiple masters. For instance, I'd like to see the red knight as a goddess of magical strategy and spell dueling. I'd like to see Milil reporting to Mystra for control of song-based magics. I'm on the fence about Auppenser reporting to her.... thinking more of an ally. I'd like to see Deneir reporting to Mystra as a god of truename and symbol based magics (including the symbol based magics of summoning extraplanar entities AND binding vestiges). Note, on the binding vestiges piece, I'd also like to have Velsharoon be taking a stab at that as well as a form of spirit magic, but that's personally because I like the alternate rules for vestiges/spirits in "secrets of pact magic" that doesn't make all spirits as trapped in some odd space. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 00:46:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
If someone insists they only see black and white, it makes no sense to waste time trying to explain to them how color works.
Except that's not what you're doing. You're insisting that there is color in pictures that are black and white.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
However, I repeat the most important point I made: just because a deity seems to be neglecting a portfolio doesn't mean they are. Invariably, novels paint deities as if they have primary agendas, because it's simpler for the narrative and for readers. You simply aren't considering what the entire worshiping body of followers is doing - you're only considering the narrow perspective of one or a handful of that deity's protagonists.
I'm not just looking at novels -- I'm looking at sourcebooks, web articles, magazine articles, and novels. And in none of the several examples that I have listed, is there any evidence whatsoever that the deity isn't just sitting on and otherwise ignoring a portfolio.
You want to convince me otherwise? Stop with the condescending "you're not seeing the whole picture" comments, especially since I'm looking at all of the same info you are. Give me actual example. Show me somewhere in print that it proves I am wrong. As has been said in other online locales -- "Pics or it didn't happen."
Wooly. Please. Last time I checked, this was a pretendy fun time game of imagination. Many descriptions of gods, NPCs, even cities are not going to be lifelike-complete.
Proof that a deity cares about a particular thing, aka portfolio, is simply in the fact that it's LISTED on their description. If you require an example of every single portfolio being actively demonstrated in some sourcebook or novel, then you are being extremely pedantic.
This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever seen on these boards. It's in their description - if novels or sourcebooks happen to focus on one particular side of a deity or whatever, that's expected - it's not some clever sign, pregnant with meaning, suggesting that other aspects don't matter.
It's akin to suggesting that a parent only loves one of their children and ignores all the others because you happened to attend one child's graduation but none of the others so you didn't see them fawning over the other kids.
Good bloody grief.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 22:39:36
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
If someone insists they only see black and white, it makes no sense to waste time trying to explain to them how color works.
Except that's not what you're doing. You're insisting that there is color in pictures that are black and white.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
However, I repeat the most important point I made: just because a deity seems to be neglecting a portfolio doesn't mean they are. Invariably, novels paint deities as if they have primary agendas, because it's simpler for the narrative and for readers. You simply aren't considering what the entire worshiping body of followers is doing - you're only considering the narrow perspective of one or a handful of that deity's protagonists.
I'm not just looking at novels -- I'm looking at sourcebooks, web articles, magazine articles, and novels. And in none of the several examples that I have listed, is there any evidence whatsoever that the deity isn't just sitting on and otherwise ignoring a portfolio.
You want to convince me otherwise? Stop with the condescending "you're not seeing the whole picture" comments, especially since I'm looking at all of the same info you are. Give me actual example. Show me somewhere in print that it proves I am wrong. As has been said in other online locales -- "Pics or it didn't happen." |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 19:21:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd love to see Deneir become one of Mystra's "gods of magic" over symbol magic, but also his being a god of scribes just fits also being a god of bureaucracy.
This idea appeals to me.
Gets Deneir out from under Oghma's shadow, too.
This sort of transition (or revelation, if you think it ought to have happened already without anybody knowing--perhaps while Mystra was down for the count and Deneir had a century to take up where Mystra was lacking) is similar to what we were presented with in Elminster's Guide to the Realms.
I wonder which other deities went for a "soft takeover" of Mystra's wide-ranging portfolio during her absence? |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 18:37:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
If someone insists they only see black and white, it makes no sense to waste time trying to explain to them how color works.
However, I repeat the most important point I made: just because a deity seems to be neglecting a portfolio doesn't mean they are. Invariably, novels paint deities as if they have primary agendas, because it's simpler for the narrative and for readers. You simply aren't considering what the entire worshiping body of followers is doing - you're only considering the narrow perspective of one or a handful of that deity's protagonists.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 16:13:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
Divine portfolios are like positions in a corporation -- some are very important and must be filled, some are of lesser importance, and some are entirely unnecessary or are so unimportant that only unpaid interns do them.
One of Amaunator's portfolios was bureaucracy. No one picked that up when he died/became Lathander/whatever.
We know divine portfolios can be left unclaimed. I've listed several portfolios whose holders are not documented as doing anything with those portfolios. And we know deities can change their portfolios into something more suitable.... Given all of that, especially the lack of evidence that some portfolios are used, why is there so much resistance to the idea that Deity A might focus more on Portfolios 1, 2, and 3, and not really do anything with 4?
I don't have a problem with the idea that a deity pushes the agenda for some portfolios more than others. However, and I think this may be where the confusion is coming in, I don't think a deity can lose a portfolio via neglecting of pushing it. I think another deity has to take it on OR the deity has to die and come back without the portfolio. I also think that whatever act occurs to "transfer" godly portfolios to another deity has a strong factor in HOW those portfolios transfer, and we don't know what that is, because we simply don't truthfully understand what happens when a god "dies". Do I have any rules to back that up? No, absolutely not, and I'd like to hear others takes on that, because some of what you've brought up Wooly is interesting.
Now, on specifics... Talos and rebellion.... I'm betting he was called upon during the Thayan uprising (but that being several hundred years ago.....). He does appear to be a poor choice for rebellion, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone else took it from him (such as Garagos or Mask)
On Mielikki and dryads... honestly, there I'm going to say I'm betting she does serve as their goddess and we just don't see it much because we don't hear a lot about dryads.... of course, there is also a daughter of Titania (Verenestra) that's supposed to be the goddess of dryads. So, EITHER Mielikki is Verenestra... which I doubt since Rillifane Rallathil lists both as allies in demihuman deities... or they're BOTH patron deities of Dryads (along with Rillifane I'd bet).
On the bureaucracy and Amaunator.... you know who I'd like to see pick that up? Deneir. I'd love to see Deneir become one of Mystra's "gods of magic" over symbol magic, but also his being a god of scribes just fits also being a god of bureaucracy.
|
| Mirtek |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 15:04:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing
IIRC it's written somewhere how Gond and Oghma often argue and how Gond is frustrated by Oghma's withholding of ideas for inventions Gond would like to spread among mortals |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 05:55:30
I think deities likely do focus more on those portfolios they hold that give them the most divine energy, but I doubt any of them ignore their 'lesser' portfolios...they just (as Wooly says) focus more on some and less on others. But Eltheron is also correct, I think, in that just because we don't see Mielikki functioning as a goddess of dryads or Talos as god of rebellion doesn't mean they ignore them. They just haven't been focused on in the lore. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 04:56:22
Fine, show me Talos looking after the rebellion portfolio. Show me Mielikki being the goddess of dryads. Show me how Oghma is controlling all the inventing that Gond and his followers are doing. Show me Shar's great interest in dungeons.
Divine portfolios are like positions in a corporation -- some are very important and must be filled, some are of lesser importance, and some are entirely unnecessary or are so unimportant that only unpaid interns do them.
One of Amaunator's portfolios was bureaucracy. No one picked that up when he died/became Lathander/whatever.
We know divine portfolios can be left unclaimed. I've listed several portfolios whose holders are not documented as doing anything with those portfolios. And we know deities can change their portfolios into something more suitable.... Given all of that, especially the lack of evidence that some portfolios are used, why is there so much resistance to the idea that Deity A might focus more on Portfolios 1, 2, and 3, and not really do anything with 4? |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 04:00:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
All those deities portfolios are part of who they are as has been firmly shown. It is not a debate you are just wrong.
Really? Who last called on the deity of rebellion?
Rebels, probably. Since we don't see many rebels in first person, we don't hear much of it. That doesn't mean it's an irrelevant portfolio.
quote:
Has Mielikki ever been invoked as the deity of dryads?
Yes, by dryads. Since we don't see dryads in first person, guess what?
quote:
Why is Gond the one that gets all the credit for technology when Oghma is the deity of invention?
Because Gond is the god of Artifice, building things, constructing - not specifically the "coming up with theoretical ideas and plans" god (which is more Oghma). There are theoreticians and planners, and then there are builders and artists. The latter actually interpret and bring ideas into reality, often with unique takes on the ideas, plans, songs, etc.
quote:
These examples firmly show that deities sometimes ignore some of their portfolios, in favor of other portfolios. It would be wrong to say otherwise.
Deities don't ignore their portfolios. Rather than firmly showing anything, you're just demonstrating that you don't quite understand the subtle differences involved.
Even Finder, he doesn't have the portfolio of rot/decay. He rejected it entirely, so he's not ignoring anything.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 00:01:02
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
All those deities portfolios are part of who they are as has been firmly shown. It is not a debate you are just wrong.
Really? Who last called on the deity of rebellion? Has Mielikki ever been invoked as the deity of dryads? Why is Gond the one that gets all the credit for technology when Oghma is the deity of invention?
These examples firmly show that deities sometimes ignore some of their portfolios, in favor of other portfolios. It would be wrong to say otherwise. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 24 Sep 2015 : 22:28:55
All those deities portfolios are part of who they are as has been firmly shown. It is not a debate you are just wrong. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 15:26:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just because you don't focus on it doesn't mean that having that portfolio doesn't gain you divine energies when someone commits acts related to the portfolio. It just means that's not in your agenda to focus on that thing. However, the general idea here is that what if by having certain portfolios, it changes the divine being possibly against their own will. You gotta admit, Kelemvor for example doesn't appear to be the same personality as a god. It might also be that HOW you obtain your portfolios may define how much control you have over how they affect you. For instance, finder didn't WANT to become a god, much less become Moander.... that might play into how his ascension was affected. We don't know the godly mechanics.... in fact, I doubt many of the gods even know the godly mechanics..... Ao knows the godly mechanics.
My original statement was that a deity that didn't want a portfolio could simply not focus on it. I've not said anything about them not getting power from it or being unchanged by it.
I was challenged on it not making sense for them to not focus on a portfolio, and the one example I gave was questioned -- so I gave many more examples of deities that ignore portfolios they hold. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 12:50:54
Just because you don't focus on it doesn't mean that having that portfolio doesn't gain you divine energies when someone commits acts related to the portfolio. It just means that's not in your agenda to focus on that thing. However, the general idea here is that what if by having certain portfolios, it changes the divine being possibly against their own will. You gotta admit, Kelemvor for example doesn't appear to be the same personality as a god. It might also be that HOW you obtain your portfolios may define how much control you have over how they affect you. For instance, finder didn't WANT to become a god, much less become Moander.... that might play into how his ascension was affected. We don't know the godly mechanics.... in fact, I doubt many of the gods even know the godly mechanics..... Ao knows the godly mechanics. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 01:07:34
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
No that is not the case. He took the portfolio and changed/adapted it.
His portfolio is: the cycle of life (rot to rebirth), transformation of art, and saurials.
"Finder has a dual aspect as a divine being. Rot and corruption
(a remainder of Moander's portfolio) represent Finder's excessive pride, arrogance, and vanity. Rebirth and renewal from rot and corruption symbolize Finder's transformation into her, sevior and deity" (Powers and Pantheons p. 14)
But it's not his focus: he focuses on the good that can come from rot, not on rot itself. He's about renewal, not corruption. So he is not focused on, and is not, a deity of rot.
And he was just an example, anyway -- the first one I could think of.
When was the last time you heard of anyone paying attention to hospitality as a divine portfolio? Lliira holds that one, but she focuses on joy and dance -- not hospitality.
Oghma is the god of invention -- but everyone thinks of Gond as the inventor. Oghma clearly isn't doing much with the portfolio; his focus is on knowledge, which is what he's known for.
Kossuth covers purification thru fire... But his focus is on fire itself, and he doesn't pay attention to anything else.
Mielikki is the goddess of dryads. But she's the goddess of the forest and of rangers, and doesn't seem to do anything special for dryads.
Who pays attention to Selūne as anything other than the goddess of the moon, and occasionally, non-evil lycanthropes? She also covers navigation, wanderers, and seekers.
Shar doesn't give an osquip's behind about dungeons, from anything we've seen -- but she holds that portfolio.
When was the last time Talos got behind a good rebellion? He's the deity of rebellion, after all.
Tymora is known as the goddess of good luck and of adventurers, and people think of her when taking chances... But she doesn't specifically cover gambling. She does cover skill, which seems an odd fit for someone that focuses on luck -- but maybe that's why she doesn't do anything with that portfolio.
So, as I said earlier, it is canon for deities to hold portfolios that they don't focus on -- all the ones I just referenced were from the listings of portfolios for each deity in Faiths & Avatars.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 00:30:48
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As I recall, Steven Schend has plans for Leira: I'll see if I can find his musings.
-- George Krashos
Don't tease me George.... I would love to see Mr. Schend's musings. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 00:26:34
As I recall, Steven Schend has plans for Leira: I'll see if I can find his musings.
-- George Krashos |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 23:08:47
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
My contact with the Realms is really just only through novels and some PC games, but I've also been entertaining ideas that Leira faked her own death just for kicks.
That would be an interesting idea for your own world. But it is stated that she is "really" dead by sources that are not "unreliable narrators". Gods sleep lightly, though, wouldn't it be just as interesting if she laid the groundwork for her own resurrection? |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 23:07:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way. "Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
No that is not the case. He took the portfolio and changed/adapted it.
His portfolio is: the cycle of life (rot to rebirth), transformation of art, and saurials.
"Finder has a dual aspect as a divine being. Rot and corruption
(a remainder of Moander's portfolio) represent Finder's excessive pride, arrogance, and vanity. Rebirth and renewal from rot and corruption symbolize Finder's transformation into her, sevior and deity" (Powers and Pantheons p. 14)
Therefore, the portfolios he possesses are still essential to his being. Things must rot/decay and then be remade in cycles. Rot/decay are not inherently evil, like Moander, and Finder still seeks to break things down as being his divine provenance. Just like Kelemvor has a very different take on being a "Death" god than Myrkul or Jergal did. Death is still core to the essence of Kelemvor as a deity and he's not just his mortal self overseeing death he has become a death deity that is fundamentally different and unlike a mortal in consciousness, form or action... they do not perceive the universe the same as mortals and are incapable of seeing things from our perspective. Which in a way blinds them to things we may think are obvious. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 02:24:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@sleyvas: I've always liked your take on Leira and she's always been a favorite deity of mine (though I can't effectively play a priest of hers...ALWAYS lying just makes gaming hard...very hard...as not even your companions trust you  ).
Some time ago I believe you proposed something similar to this idea (that Leira tricked Cyric into all this with the Cyrinishad). I always liked it and still do. She pulled off the greatest deception ever (faking her death) and did it with style.
Getting back to Cyrinishad's comment. I just thought of one hiccup to that theory: If Cyric was essentially the child of two gods this (IMHO anyway) make him 1) a semi-divine being from birth and 2) he should have been able to handle the portfolios he was given much better.
Of course, this thread is dealing heavily with the consequences of certain portfolios so maybe just about any deity with those particular areas of influence (in tandem with each other) causes a great deal of strain, even for a deity. Thus Jergal needed to be 'delivered' from them.
Hmmm, I like the general premise though that perhaps Cyric was born of those deities involvement. For instance, maybe Cyric was born to a high priestess of Leira (who never told him the truth of herself) who wormed her way into the temple of the night masks in Westgate using her womanly wiles. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 02:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
There are a lot of great ideas getting thrown around in this scroll. I really dig the idea that the Cyrinishad was Leira, it's a great parallel with Godsbane being Mask.... and Cyric reading it being the event that enables her eventual return is  .
Sleyvas original post with the "love working with you" comment about Mask & Leira, reminded me that Cyric's parents remain unnamed. Is it too over-the-top to think that Cyric's parents were Avatars of Mask & Leira? Considering that Cyric's father murdered his mother for having the child, it creates a pretty twisted parallel when Cyric uses Godsbane(Mask) to murder Leira...
HMMMMMMMMMMMMM...... delicious...... where could we take this? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 02:08:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh... I don't see it. A deity not wanting a portfolio could simply not focus on that portfolio.
I could not disagree with this more. Portfolios are essential parts of the being of Gods. If a God gains or loses a portfolio they change in a fundamental way. "Not focusing" on it makes no sense.
It's canon for deities to do this. Finder took the portfolio of rot from Moander, but he made it something else -- he isn't the god of rot.
On this, I refer back to the idea that gods don't truly understand "god physics" of what it means to "take" a portfolio by killing another god. Sometimes possibly their essential nature prevents them from acquiring a portfolio.... and this also brings up some things like Moander having rot and Myrkul having decay.... what exactly is the difference between those two? |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 19:54:02
I like Leira and have taken a similar approach with the "great deception" theme in my Realms. I think Wooly's construction is my favourite, though. I'm a big fan of wrapping a lot of disjuncted nonsense into neat explanations and making awesome lore out of it (and it is a very Realmsian tradition!). |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 18:15:39
My contact with the Realms is really just only through novels and some PC games, but I've also been entertaining ideas that Leira faked her own death just for kicks.
In my own little fanfiction version of the Realms, based on the "logic" that the fundamentals of magic is deception, illusion and slight of hand, Leira is the real goddess of magic, she just lets Mystra have fun with it. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 16:33:51
@sleyvas: I've always liked your take on Leira and she's always been a favorite deity of mine (though I can't effectively play a priest of hers...ALWAYS lying just makes gaming hard...very hard...as not even your companions trust you ).
Some time ago I believe you proposed something similar to this idea (that Leira tricked Cyric into all this with the Cyrinishad). I always liked it and still do. She pulled off the greatest deception ever (faking her death) and did it with style.
Getting back to Cyrinishad's comment. I just thought of one hiccup to that theory: If Cyric was essentially the child of two gods this (IMHO anyway) make him 1) a semi-divine being from birth and 2) he should have been able to handle the portfolios he was given much better.
Of course, this thread is dealing heavily with the consequences of certain portfolios so maybe just about any deity with those particular areas of influence (in tandem with each other) causes a great deal of strain, even for a deity. Thus Jergal needed to be 'delivered' from them. |
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