| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 07:56:39
It had been set in Narfell.
I could imagine some decendants of Narfell who discovered some old artifacts and wanted to resurrect their old empire. They decide to start it off by summoning some demons but something goes wrong and you have the likes of Demogorgon stepping through.
Im my opinion, that says way more interesting and leaves things open for further expansion on Narfell. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 23:11:20
Rolls eyes at the insistent whiners |
| idilippy |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 18:36:38
I wonder if we will see the wider Realms or smaller stories if the current Sword Coast only, massive threats only adventures are successful. It could easily become a positive feedback loop: massive world ending threats in the Sword Coast prove successful, so further adventures follow the same premise of massive world ending threats set in the familiar region, which if successful will further cement the idea that these stories are the ones worth doing (and from a business sense, it could be that they are, though that would be disappointing). It'll also tie in easier to their MMORPG, which seems important to them, and the factions for their organized play league. An adventure in, say, Calimshan, Thay, Kara Tur, or any other region far from the Sword Coast wouldn't easily fit the factions for their organized play league or with the Neverwinter MMO.
It's possible they might eventually abandon their multiple platform, organized play tie in approach on some of their future adventures, or publish non-adventure supplements, but if so they haven't shown any indication of it yet. If every storyline they do must be multi-platform and they only publish storyline material I am not all that confident we will see all the many other areas of the Realms expanded on. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 15:16:27
All the lands between the Sword Coast and Cormyr (The Western Heartlands) seems to be the focus of the 4e/5e adventures and time period. Perhaps we will see other areas down the road, but right now everything seems to be concentrated around there.
I completely understand their reasoning - they need to bring RPG fans back to The Realms, and they need focus to do that - its still too early in the 'rebirth' to start wandering far from the 'start area' yet. It will only cause confusion and angst amongst new fans who would then have to figure out how to get their group over to some other region - The Realms are HUGE.
If we all do a little 'hand-holding' for awhile and nurture these new fans, it will be possible we get what WE want... eventually. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 02:22:03
It depends on what power they will give to the Demon princes. If Asmodeus is comparable to a lesser power, then I guess that the demon princes will be something like demipowers. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 23:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Theoretically, Lolth's hands should be somewhat tied, because with the new Tablets of Fate, gods aren't supposed to exert too much influence on Faerun. So she can't just send an avatar to battle them.
Exactly how the sundering effects the deities ability to influence the Realms is very vague. The main take away I got from most of the sundering campaign relating to the deities is that WotC won't be having them randomly killed of at every turn. Also, all of the realms deities are either back or their fate will be left vague enough that you can easily use them in your homebrew campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh, I don't see a problem with that (unless he and his friends directly faced the demon princes and banished them, in which case it would be a bit ridiculous IMO, and the people who like call him a Mary Sue would be totally right in doing so).
I think the Archmage starts the event.
Also, the companions defeating one of the demon princes isn't really that unreasonable in 5e(or 4e for that matter). The princes of elemental evil range from CR 18-20 and Tiamat is rated at a CR 30. My guess is that the demon princes will be between 18 and 30 based on how powerful the prince is. Spoilers: at the end of Princes of the Apocalypse the PCs(lv 15) face off and have a decent shot of defeating one of the elemental princes. I would consider Drizzt and Bruenor to be higher level than 15 and most of the rest of the companions to be around that level(and they have significantly better magic items than the PCs are likely to have). I just can't see how doing something PCs are perfectly capable merits the Mary Sue whining. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 19:32:05
Irennan, I totally agree. If Gromph is smart, he will hightail it to a pocket dimension until things die down. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 19:30:14
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Hopefully, the demon princes do achieve a lasting influence in the underdark. They are interesting villains and FR is in short supply of those.
I doubt that Lolth will lose all her influence over the drow, but it would be interesting to have a few cities fall under the influence of a demon prince. It just adds more tools in the Dm's toolbox.
Agree 100%. It has long felt like archdevils get more screen time than demon lords. I really hope to see RAS use 1 demon lord in his novels, and given his recent focus on the Grandmaster Kane and his protege Afafrenfere, I'm betting he will use Orcus a little bit.
But I would also enjoy seeing how a novelist might approach Demogorgon. He seems like he would be tricky to write. Theoretically, Lolth's hands should be somewhat tied, because with the new Tablets of Fate, gods aren't supposed to exert too much influence on Faerun. So she can't just send an avatar to battle them. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 17:41:32
Hopefully, the demon princes do achieve a lasting influence in the underdark. They are interesting villains and FR is in short supply of those.
I doubt that Lolth will lose all her influence over the drow, but it would be interesting to have a few cities fall under the influence of a demon prince. It just adds more tools in the Dm's toolbox. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 16:59:15
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In which way would this explain the matriarchy being overthrown (which I honestly doubt Wizards will let happen)? I mean, from the blurb this thing doesn't exactly sound as a successful ritual, or as stuff that went as planned.
Also, a bunch of demon princes rampaging freely sounds quite RSE-y. But then, they will be defeated and things will mostly be as before, so I guess that you are right.
The last 2 RAS books all but say that Gromph is plotting the overthrow of the matriarchy. The drow plan to wreak havoc in the Silver Marches was an epic fail, and Gromph used Drizzt to end the Darkening as a direct slap in the face of Lolth herself. Breunor is leading the dwarves to retake Gauntlgrym.
Dealing with the dwarves, the aftermath of the failed surface attempt, and the repercussions of Quenthel's grab at absolute power will provide the cover for Gromph to work this grand spell. In turn, the rampaging demons will provide the cover for him to overthrow the matriarchy. (The reasoning provided in the last novel is that Lolth went too far with trying to control magic and allow the females to usurp the traditional male stronghold of arcane magic.)
Oh, I see, thanks for the explanation. But that fact that Gromph is not ok with what's coming through probably means that his plan too didn't go well, and that he has bigger problems than the matriarchy now. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 16:46:16
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
would have been better if it had entreri as the lead character
Entreri's my dude. He's the most compelling RAS character in my view, but Drizzt will be better for sales. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 16:44:28
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In which way would this explain the matriarchy being overthrown (which I honestly doubt Wizards will let happen)? I mean, from the blurb this thing doesn't exactly sound as a successful ritual, or as stuff that went as planned.
Also, a bunch of demon princes rampaging freely sounds quite RSE-y. But then, they will be defeated and things will mostly be as before, so I guess that you are right.
The last 2 RAS books all but say that Gromph is plotting the overthrow of the matriarchy. The drow plan to wreak havoc in the Silver Marches was an epic fail, and Gromph used Drizzt to end the Darkening as a direct slap in the face of Lolth herself. Breunor is leading the dwarves to retake Gauntlgrym.
Dealing with the dwarves, the aftermath of the failed surface attempt, and the repercussions of Quenthel's grab at absolute power will provide the cover for Gromph to work this grand spell. In turn, the rampaging demons will provide the cover for him to overthrow the matriarchy. (The reasoning provided in the last novel is that Lolth went too far with trying to control magic and allow the females to usurp the traditional male stronghold of arcane magic.) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 16:25:21
Perhaps the intended result wasn't this. The blurb of the adventure states that Gromph opened some kind of portal, but that what came forth surprised even him (so basically it seems that he lost control of it). Sounds like a failed plan to me (and like WotC spoilered quite a big point of RAS' next book). |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 16:08:56
That bit about the overthrow of the drow matriarchy makes it sound like this is kind of a nuclear option for one of the parties involved. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 05:07:47
would have been better if it had entreri as the lead character |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 03:47:32
In which way would this explain the matriarchy being overthrown (which I honestly doubt Wizards will let happen)? I mean, from the blurb this thing doesn't exactly sound as a successful ritual, or as stuff that went as planned.
Also, a bunch of demon princes rampaging freely sounds quite RSE-y. But then, they will be defeated and things will mostly be as before, so I guess that you are right. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 03:34:33
This is not a Realms Shaking Event!!! The synopsis seems to largely confine the demonic rampage to the Underdark. Given the connection with Salavatore's recent novels, and the direction they have been heading, I think the event's purpose is to give a plausible explanation for the overthrow of the drow matriarchy. The fact that this is taking place beneath the Sword Coast makes it that much more likely that the threat is averted before any significant damage is done to the surface lands.
I don't see how anyone can read the synopsis and consider this adventure to be similar to the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, or the Sundering. This event won't even alter Faerun as much as the Rage of Dragons or the return of Shade Enclave. It's a local adventure where local heros will fight alongside ONE epic level NPC. And considering that Drizzt is a melee fighter, he won't be soloing any demon lords. The PCs will have plenty of room to shine. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 21:13:59
There never will be any development in the area, as long as WotC chooses to ignore it.  |
| sylvain |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 19:38:11
The main issue with Narfell is that it lies in a completely undeveloped area of the Realms, and from a cross-media point of view, its just not feasible to bring in Sword Coast Legends, Neverwinter and Ed + Salvatores novels.
Until D&D video games start to broaden their horizons of the realms from the Sword Coast, Until we have a proper 5E Campaign Setting, we will never see any "Adventure Paths" that far removed from the 'nostalgic and better-known areas of the realms'.
As a fan of long lost civilizations, I completely agree that it would be an awesome idea, heck I may even try to adapt the adventure myself to that part of the realms... but from a business stand point, I personally think WOTC made the right call. |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 18:57:35
quote:
Originally posted by sylvain
" I think "Rage of Demons" would have been better if "
How the heck can we even start such a claim when the product hasn't been released yet?
And why is Narfell any better or worse then the Underdark? Personally I think it all depends on how the adventure is written and not the physical location.
As for Drizzt, he's just an NPC that can easily be ignored/exchanged for another. Also I quote from Chris Perkins - "Drizzt's role in the ROD story varies depending on the platform. In the TRPG adventure, the PCs are the stars."
So the 'mary-sue' theory is out the door.
It would perhaps have been better to call the thread "The concept of 'Rage of Demons' as currently presented could have been improved by", but that makes for such an awkwardly long thread title :p
The adventure might be solid for all I know (though I don't think there are many actually good FR modules - note that I am only properly aware of pre-3rd Ed), and there's probably stuff to milk for lore-juice (can you even milk juice)) but the point of the thread remains the same, I suppose - I do have to say, though, that if the Underdark isn't your thing (and I'm one of them, as are all nine players who are good friends - the one time we tried it - The Night Below campaign - it crashed once they realized the rest of the boxed set would be Underdark and more Underdark), you can still use such a book but of course the price tag may not justify it if you only buy it for three sentences of new lore, possibly for a new species of glowing mushroom and another hybrid monster. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 17:52:00
quote:
Originally posted by sylvain
" I think "Rage of Demons" would have been better if "
How the heck can we even start such a claim when the product hasn't been released yet?
And why is Narfell any better or worse then the Underdark? Personally I think it all depends on how the adventure is written and not the physical location.
As for Drizzt, he's just an NPC that can easily be ignored/exchanged for another. Also I quote from Chris Perkins - "Drizzt's role in the ROD story varies depending on the platform. In the TRPG adventure, the PCs are the stars."
So the 'mary-sue' theory is out the door.
Maybe because Narfell was an entire nation dedicated to summoning and binding demons? Nar-demonbinders were supposedly legendary.
Also, it's an area that hasn't been done before. |
| sylvain |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 17:05:40
" I think "Rage of Demons" would have been better if "
How the heck can we even start such a claim when the product hasn't been released yet?
And why is Narfell any better or worse then the Underdark? Personally I think it all depends on how the adventure is written and not the physical location.
As for Drizzt, he's just an NPC that can easily be ignored/exchanged for another. Also I quote from Chris Perkins - "Drizzt's role in the ROD story varies depending on the platform. In the TRPG adventure, the PCs are the stars."
So the 'mary-sue' theory is out the door. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 17:02:00
The adventure blurb explictly says that http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/outoftheabyss
I think that it will be the plot of RAS' new book. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 16:56:16
I haven't read a Drizzt book since The Companions (thanks Malazan). Are there any hints in the Companions Codex series that Gromph was working toward unleashing the demon princes? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 16:44:19
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
If Drizzt and co find some unconventional way of dealing with the problem, like leading raids on supplies for the demons' followers, sowing enough dissent in the lower ranks to start a chain reaction, I wouldn't mind that. Would these demons be unleashed by Baenre trying to hold onto its position in the Underdark?
My impression is that the demons princes will be already rampaging when the adventure starts, so undermining the cultist (which in this case= Gromph) won't do much. I can live with Drizzt and friends defeating them, as long as it isn't a direct fight (and as long as the demon princes behave accordingly to their INT score, which seems to be extraordinarily rare, when it comes to gods/uber beings of any kind in FR). |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 16:35:36
If Drizzt and co find some unconventional way of dealing with the problem, like leading raids on supplies for the demons' followers, sowing enough dissent in the lower ranks to start a chain reaction, I wouldn't mind that. Would these demons be unleashed by Baenre trying to hold onto its position in the Underdark? |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 15:32:38
Yeah, what Irennan says.
Why not a layered story of intrigue and backstabbing among the nobles of, say, Suzail - with the outcome not shattering anything but the bodies of the PCs foes? Just for a change. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 13:31:08
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I find it difficult to give advice on how to improve something without having ever seen the final product. It is interesting how so many scribes are assuming that Out of the abyss will be terrible without ever reading the book.
Personally, I'm not assuming that it will be bad, but my complaint is the repetitiveness of the kind of storyline.
Step1) Some mad/power thirsty/dimwitted dudes try to summon some uber evil on Faerun, for whatever reason (usually ''evil'' or ''hurr, I want power'')
Step2) Bad stuff happens
Step3) The uber evil is defeated
Step1)...
It's even more perplexing because not one demon prince, but a lot of them have decided to go through Gromph's portal and start rampaging through the Underdark.
Also, the fact that all these threats for some mysterious reason happen to be in the Sword Coast or nearby -or beneath the region-, and happen in intervals of like 2-3 years doesn't really help.
quote:
Drizzt is going to be the one who stops what's going to happen and I know that is a major problem for a lot of people.
Meh, I don't see a problem with that (unless he and his friends directly faced the demon princes and banished them, in which case it would be a bit ridiculous IMO, and the people who like call him a Mary Sue would be totally right in doing so). |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 13:17:48
The thing that I believe people are forgetting is the fact that these AP's are canon not to mention the novel. Drizzt is going to be the one who stops what's going to happen and I know that is a major problem for a lot of people. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 13:15:03
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Do i detect that you dont want people messing up your backyard
They can do what they like. But I'm still glad the adventure isn't set in Narfell.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 12:04:30
Well George never described it as such, that was my assumption, he is far to nice and noble to denigrate anothers work. It was probably just that the synopsis did not fit his vision for Narfell that prompted his gladness that it wasnt set in Narfell, but again those are my words and not his.
As for me i'm just old and bitter and view everything negatively by default. Plus this is definitely an RSE (as were the last two adventures) and we were told no more RSE's (or at least that is what i thought we were told).
I still feel it would be better as an adventure if it were not an RSE and did not contain a super npc to steal the lime light, and everything would be better if it were set in 1370. So the criticism was meant in a constructive fashion.
I think RSE burnout builds up far too quickly among designers and fans, having to keep designing ever greater threats is difficult and eventually boils down to add x+1 number of badguys (where x is equal to the number of bad guys in the last adventure) and make them of a different type or a mixture of previous types. Plus with these types of adventures it means you cannot reuse the characters from the last scenario without rewriting the early stages (either as a designer you appeal to new players and allow it to be played from level 1, or you require players to have worked through at least one previous scenario and so start at level x - having both is difficult to impossible and requires a lot of redundant writing as you rescale the first half of the adventure). |
