| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Xal Valzar |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 20:39:49
Well i love ancient Greece and their culture. would be swell to game there. does anyone know any part of FR that is close to that kind of world?
Also who is the closest character to Alexander the Great? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 15:24:20
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Of the nations of Faerun, Chessenta most closely resembles classical Hellenic culture (complete with Sparta and Athens analogues). The character closest to Alexander is Tchazzar, who united the city-states of Chessenta into an empire and expanded it beyond its traditional borders. There are some fantasy elements in there to be sure.
What sort of analogues to Sparta are present? I ask because I have this AWESOME spartan-ish character that I want to try for my FR-4E game but really no backstory for him because his style seems out of place.
I would definitely say Akanax. It's a city state that functions like a large military war camp and is a major power in the region. Info on it in FRCS 3e (page 183), Old Empires (page 54).
Thanks, I'll definitely check it out. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 13:33:42
In my purely homebrew musings, I theorized an FR racial group known as 'the Dathites', which are based on early Greek/Mediterranean cultures. My idea was that Imaskar had tried to capture an earlier group then the Mulan, and it was a failed experiment. The people not only proved to be hard to control (very warlike), but had also inadvertently brought with them their gods (or, at least, a few of them). This is how I explain a few obscure references to Greek/Roman deities in Realmslore, and also the occasional 'Latinesque' name. Its also based on some wee bit of canon - there was an off-hand reference to such a group in one of the 'god books'.
After a decade or so, the group - perhaps a few thousand strong - managed to win free of the Imaskari and traveled west, beyond the imperial plantations that were established in what would become Mulhorand, and either mixed with or displaced the Turami (and others) that were living there, through Chessenta and eventually settling in the Chondath region (at first simply being referred to as 'Dathia' - an unknown borderland of the Imaskari Marches). Very little has survived from their original culture, except for some naming conventions that have managed to stand the test of time. As for their gods - most never made it to Toril, whether that was by choice or not. Of the ones that did, most are gone now; Tyche split, Kronos is long gone, Dionysius became an exarch of Ilmater, and Aphrodite/Venus became known as Sune (she may have been folded-into Hanali at some point, as a human aspect of that goddess).
The Imaskari, for their part, learned from their mistakes and realized 'faith' was responsible for the loss of their slaves. Faith = 'hope', and without it, slaves are more easily controlled. Thus, they created their most ambitious project ever - the Godwall, to stop deities from emigrating along with their stolen people.
The Dathites - like most humans - eventually grew beyond their borders and settled the coast just north of them, creating the empire of Jhaamdath. They also pushed back east, after the fall of Imaskar, into the lands of Chessenta. Much contention has gone on between Chondath and Chessenta, because both claim to have come 'first', and to some degree, both are correct. Chessenta does retain the 'old ways' more-so then the Chondathans, but has never truly established itself as a nation (just a collection of warring city-states that band together when a common threat assails them).
After the fall of Jhaamdath, the Dathites - now known as 'Chondathans' - spread north and north-east, around the Sea of Fallen Stars. Some few reverted to their ancient, barbarian heritage and became nomads in the Calishar - a wild region north of Calimshan and the Lake of Steam. In time, brutal domination by the Shoon Imperium forced those groups to spread further, many going west (and north) all along the Sword Coast, and eventually across the sea to the Moonshaes (and other islands - some now long-gone). Around this same time Cormyr was settled by Impilturan Chondathans, the last great wave of ancient Dathites, now greatly diluted with the bloodlines of many other peoples. It was the rising military might of Cormyr that finally put a stop to Shoon dominance and spread.
So the Dathites - now Chondathans - are a people who have adventure in their blood. They seek new lands always, not just to conquer, but to trade and settle. At their hearts they are a proud warrior-people, that have been 'mellowed' under the great grindstone that is the wheel of time. Woe to any empire that tries to dominate them for too long, for they will learn that a Dathite cherishes their freedom above all else: They will awaken that fighter-instinct that simmers just below the surface, always.
So the Dathites - called 'Chondathan' by modern scholars - have spread their culture and influence just about everywhere in Faerūn, just as their Earth counterparts did with Hellenism, and later the Roman Empire. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 09:13:40
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
Also who is the closest character to Alexander the Great?
What exactly do you mean under "closest character"? There are many aspects that don't necessarily mix, but may qualify as "close":
1) Charismatic conquerors for the conquest's sake?
2) Conquerors who didn't leave anything viable as a heritage?
3) People too impatient for puzzles?
4) Kown inventors of things like mail cover check?
5) Historical figures worshipped as founders of trends resembling infamous "weaboo"?
 |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 08:11:55
Again, you're putting too much of a "romanticized philosophical" spin on Alexander. Just because he was tutored by a philosopher (really a learned man in those days was a polymath more than any one identifiable discipline, who else would a king hire to teach his heir?) and that didn't mean he was one himself (he didn't seem like the philosopher-king type, but then again, his was a short life, even for his day given his station). He enacted a plan his father started and the momentum carried him through to the ends of the known Earth.
What I'm saying is, when you speak of Alexander there is a gushiness that shows an obvious bias. Step back for a moment and remove the glamor you've coated onto your perception of him. You're speaking with airy notions of the philosophical motivations for a historical person now well over two millennia dead (there are histories of him, but there are discrepancies between them, then how well do we really know what made the man tick?) and then comparing them to a rather malleable fictional character (you asked for closest match, not for direct copy of Alexander, for which there is none in the Realms).
Not to say Alexander wasn't brilliant, but how much of the romanticized notions you're attributing to him are his own true thoughts? He didn't leave any well known works on thought, or even a first hand account of why he did what he did (I may be wrong). There's no doubt he was great, but how much of "the Great" was attributed to him after the fact as his successors lionized him and tried to use his legend to legitimize their hold to power? Recall, the Alexander Romances are of dubious veracity, but make great fodder for a fantasy game.
If philosophy is what you want, go to Planescape. Each one of the factions is an embodiment of a well known current or historical school of philosophical thought. I believe Colin McComb was a philosophy major (hey, at least one philosophy major found meaningful employment) and that was reflected in his contributions to the setting.
As for the Greek pantheon. I didn't mean it was necessary for an Alexander analogue, but it would be a easily implemented point for a Greek area of a fantasy setting.
After all there is much more to Greek culture and history than one man. Hellenic culture existed prior to Alexander and they were developing philosophy, medicine, science and all sorts of learned concepts for generations before Alexander and the successor states perpetuated Hellenic culture throughout the ancient world for centuries after his death.
Would such a significant historical figure not be forgotten if other great figures of history did not worship him and work to enact their lives to his model? Would he be as 'Great' if the Caesars did not mold themselves to his legend. Probably not. Alexander may have been a keystone, or an important linchpin, but he was also a part of a truly great whole.
And I think that's the take away of the Realms, the whole is greater than its parts. Aim for the widespread impact of persons big and small, give it that lived in feel. The pieces are in place within Chessenta, just a few nudges should get you want you need.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 05:09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
none of those books had any fundemtnal thing to say about the nature of existance or off the nature and method of knowledge, anything on the standard of value. the stuff there is really to shallow to call a philosophy, maybe a hogpodge of sophistry.
BTW making a book on philosphy should be dirt cheap for WoTC since Philosophy grads are chorincly unemployed.
Even dirt cheap, they'd be lucky to get their money back on it. The fact that philosophy grads are chronically unemployed should show you how much appeal philosophy has for the average person. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 05:08:23
Nature of Existence: the Gods created the world.
Knowledge sprang from the Gods: Oghma, Mystra etc.
It isn't meant to show you everything mate...it is meant for you to piece it together as you like.
Still there though, with prophets mentioned, religious centers, colleges of education and more.
As for a book of Philosophy from WotC or TSR; how many people even bought Ed's AMAZING "Elminster's Forgotten Realms"? If you have a copy great...if you don't; don't cross your fingers for a book on Philosophy! Though I'm sure Ed would LOVE to write such a book! |
| Xal Valzar |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 04:40:34
none of those books had any fundemtnal thing to say about the nature of existance or off the nature and method of knowledge, anything on the standard of value. the stuff there is really to shallow to call a philosophy, maybe a hogpodge of sophistry.
BTW making a book on philosphy should be dirt cheap for WoTC since Philosophy grads are chorincly unemployed. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 04:31:46
Lacking philosophy?
Have you perused (or heard of) these books:
Faiths and Avatars
Demihuman Deities
Powers and Pantheons
If you are looking for a detailed book on Philosophy I don't think TSR or WotC ever had it in their budget...but there are noted philosophers in all of those books. |
| Xal Valzar |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 03:55:58
well the thing that i really want is there to be a cultural influnce but since the realms history is lacking any philosophy or ideas as a driving force then not likely to find it. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 03:50:28
Aencar the Mantled King of the Dales...gets my vote for a military and diplomatic great.
As for Hellenism, I would have to say Chessenta is obviously the best choice for the place you want to look...though if you wanted to spin it well, you could look at the whole Realms as City-State heavy (just not Hellenistic).
|
| Xal Valzar |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 03:29:28
i like your point Dark Wizards. espically reversing the predicet to fit the subject.
and i dont really see the Tchazzar as being the same since he is quite diffrent in one part, Alexander could have died, Tchazzar knew he was in the clear. i mean Tchazzar has some superical similarties but not the same magnificent lifeblood as Alexander did. And still no one says Tchazzar the Great. Tchazzar had diffrent motivations then Alexander clearly. that is what sets them apart.
By making an Alexander charcter you do not need the Greeck Pantheon though, and the advent of greek not having infulunce is skewed as there is no mention of any philosopher in FR history, and in our history Philosophy is the Greeks greatest gift. you need a man who has such spirit:
The spirit of Alexander is the spirit of endless possibilities. The spirit of a fiery hot intent of wanting to reach the cold still truth. The spirit to take ones grandest aspiration and see them through. The spirit that no enemy is too big nor too strong, that no weapon is as deadly as your strongest weapon; your mind. Alexanders is a spirit of Greatness. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 02:16:40
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Of the nations of Faerun, Chessenta most closely resembles classical Hellenic culture (complete with Sparta and Athens analogues). The character closest to Alexander is Tchazzar, who united the city-states of Chessenta into an empire and expanded it beyond its traditional borders. There are some fantasy elements in there to be sure.
What sort of analogues to Sparta are present? I ask because I have this AWESOME spartan-ish character that I want to try for my FR-4E game but really no backstory for him because his style seems out of place.
I would definitely say Akanax. It's a city state that functions like a large military war camp and is a major power in the region. Info on it in FRCS 3e (page 183), Old Empires (page 54).
This.
As with all things in a "pseudo-medieval but not really" fantasy setting, there's some inconsistencies, but it's fairly obvious that was the vibe they went for.
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
its odd marrying Sparta and Athens together since they were great rivals, and Athens always won. Also the Spartans fought FOR the Persian in the time of Alexander the Great.
Tchazzar does not remainds me one bit of Alexander btw.
i like the "Amazon" bit, though it sounds kinda odd. secondly i would love to hear more about tactics then just saying "its good". and how exactly did there close phalnax positons fair agianst a mass of fireballs? also why so little mention of cavalry?
im not trying to knock you or anything but it feels really missing.
Keep in mind, the Realms, or any fantasy setting of this type, is not modelling any exact era or historical situation but aiming for a general feel of a culture/time/place, with blatant departures made for 'magical unrealism' and molding (even roughly jamming) the concept into the rest of the setting's history and styling.
We could equally ask why didn't the Realms include tidbits of Greece as a Roman territory, Greece as a major component of the Byzantine holdings, Greece under the thumb of the Ottomans, or even Greece as a fiscally beleaguered member of the EU. 'Cause, that wasn't the Greece the designers were going for, and likely it wasn't the representation of Hellenic influences they felt would make for good adventures, in the context of the main setting.
As for Tchazzar =/= Alexander, you would be correct, but it's not as terrible a match as you said ("does not remind me one bit"). Tchazzar is cut from the same archetype originated by Alexander, a military leader who boldly lead his troops and within a lifetime (or less) enlarged his realm many fold, only to die (disappear) quickly and have his kingdom fractured. Tchazzar is essentially the same figure if you drop the romanticized dross about Aristotelian characteristics and the lionization due to him because his successors wanted to cement their hold on their piece of his empire (his cult of personality).
If you want a very Alexandrian archetype, then you'll have to add it. If you want something closer to a fantasy ancient Greece with some prominence in the setting, you'll also have to introduce the classical Olympian pantheon. There are some parallels in the standard Faerunian pantheon, but you'll have to import (or revive) the bulk of them. The historical and cultural impact of Chessenta is also less in the Realms than what ancient Greece had on Western Civilization, you'll have to change that as well.
As with any threads that ask about drawing a direct parallel between the Realms and a real world equivalent, the answer is never 100%. If you find yourself asking "Why isn't this closer to Hellenism," then perhaps your original question shouldn't have been "What (in the Realms) is the closest to Hellenism" but rather "What (in ancient Greece) is closest to the Realms."
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 01:14:59
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
its odd marrying Sparta and Athens together since they were great rivals, and Athens always won. Also the Spartans fought FOR the Persian in the time of Alexander the Great.
Tchazzar does not remainds me one bit of Alexander btw.
i like the "Amazon" bit, though it sounds kinda odd. secondly i would love to hear more about tactics then just saying "its good". and how exactly did there close phalnax positons fair agianst a mass of fireballs? also why so little mention of cavalry?
im not trying to knock you or anything but it feels really missing.
Not sure which history you are reading; but Athens surely didn't always win.
The "Amazon bit" is actually canon Forgotten Realms. The She-Wolves are backed by their own magic to counter a "mass of fireballs" as well (The Cult of Hekati...backed by one Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon). Not sure if you read the download...but there is plenty of cavalry that is used by both the She-Wolves as well as historically in early Greek warfare. As for Ixinos' Military, the standing Guard is 100 Cavalry out of 700. For the She-Wolves it is 25% cavalry (and of 240 members, 10 are wizards level 3-6 and 20 priests levels 3-8)...
Ixinos has always been in the Forgotten Realms...I didn't make it up; only fleshed it out. |
| deserk |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 23:03:15
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Of the nations of Faerun, Chessenta most closely resembles classical Hellenic culture (complete with Sparta and Athens analogues). The character closest to Alexander is Tchazzar, who united the city-states of Chessenta into an empire and expanded it beyond its traditional borders. There are some fantasy elements in there to be sure.
What sort of analogues to Sparta are present? I ask because I have this AWESOME spartan-ish character that I want to try for my FR-4E game but really no backstory for him because his style seems out of place.
I would definitely say Akanax. It's a city state that functions like a large military war camp and is a major power in the region. Info on it in FRCS 3e (page 183), Old Empires (page 54). |
| Xal Valzar |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 22:09:44
i mean i actually want my character to fight the She-Wolves (and from the looks of the outdated tactics probably win).
i think no charcter has the genius, bold character and magnanimity (an Aristotelian term, fitting) to match Alexander the Great. Looks like we need one, the best way to do that is have him trained by a... you guessed it, great philosopher. |
| Xal Valzar |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:53:08
its odd marrying Sparta and Athens together since they were great rivals, and Athens always won. Also the Spartans fought FOR the Persian in the time of Alexander the Great.
Tchazzar does not remainds me one bit of Alexander btw.
i like the "Amazon" bit, though it sounds kinda odd. secondly i would love to hear more about tactics then just saying "its good". and how exactly did there close phalnax positons fair agianst a mass of fireballs? also why so little mention of cavalry?
im not trying to knock you or anything but it feels really missing.
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:45:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Of the nations of Faerun, Chessenta most closely resembles classical Hellenic culture (complete with Sparta and Athens analogues). The character closest to Alexander is Tchazzar, who united the city-states of Chessenta into an empire and expanded it beyond its traditional borders. There are some fantasy elements in there to be sure.
What sort of analogues to Sparta are present? I ask because I have this AWESOME spartan-ish character that I want to try for my FR-4E game but really no backstory for him because his style seems out of place. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:40:47
I liken Warchief Reinhar and Strategor Mattick as having similar military succes as Alexander. The Dambrathi Horselord managed to purge a huge swathe of the Shaar and is the only general bold enough to have attempted an invasion of Halruua; while the military genius of Mattick made the Netheril Basin a safe enough place for the progress of the Netherese to soar to impressive heights.
For some other examples of great generals in the realms try my old thread about the subject. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:14:18
Try this:
Ixinos |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:12:34
Of the nations of Faerun, Chessenta most closely resembles classical Hellenic culture (complete with Sparta and Athens analogues). The character closest to Alexander is Tchazzar, who united the city-states of Chessenta into an empire and expanded it beyond its traditional borders. There are some fantasy elements in there to be sure. |
|
|
