| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 24 Oct 2014 : 18:39:19
Rise of Tiamat reveals Laeral Silverhand to be the new open lord of Waterdeep. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 08:06:28
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The novel "Blackstaff" by Steven Schend explains how it came to be but that novel was published toward the end of 3E and so there was no gaming product follow-up like there would have been in the "good old days". I can't recall what information was provided in the 4E FR books but given the level of detail on anything in that edition, I can safely surmise that the answer to that is "not much".
-- George Krashos
Okay, that explains quite a bit. My consumption of FR novels is admittedly sparse (I think the last FR novel I read was Evermeet), and if there wasn't a game explanation behind Laeral 'not being around', I probably just assumed the worst, especially after reading what happened to Qilue (which killed my desire to read the Lady Penitent books).
Thanks, Krash, much appreciated. 
- OMH |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 06:58:17
The novel "Blackstaff" by Steven Schend explains how it came to be but that novel was published toward the end of 3E and so there was no gaming product follow-up like there would have been in the "good old days". I can't recall what information was provided in the 4E FR books but given the level of detail on anything in that edition, I can safely surmise that the answer to that is "not much".
-- George Krashos |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 06:36:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Rhymanthiin, the 'City of Hope'.
Ah, I was not aware of this. Nor of the source material (which I still have no idea of.  ). I'm guessing the FR wiki is the only source on this hidden city?
Anyways, thank you. This raises Wizbro up several notches in my book. As nonsensical as some of the other stuff is, this is a good thing to learn. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 21:21:14
Indeed. I was heading out the door and could not take the time to look for it. Thank you, saer. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 15:31:04
Rhymanthiin, the 'City of Hope'. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 15:17:56
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Ever since the Spellplague hit Dove, Alustriel and Laeral were basically missing in action. We never had any info on what had happened to them until The Herald came along and we were given an explanation as to where Laeral and Alustriel had been. No info on Dove.
Though I do recall someone around here mentioning that Alustriel had chosen to pass away so her son and Silverymoon could go on their way.
Laeral had left Waterdeep before the Spellplague, and had relocated to that Hidden City whose name I always forget, to raise her and Khelben's child. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 14:36:10
Ever since the Spellplague hit Dove, Alustriel and Laeral were basically missing in action. We never had any info on what had happened to them until The Herald came along and we were given an explanation as to where Laeral and Alustriel had been. No info on Dove.
Though I do recall someone around here mentioning that Alustriel had chosen to pass away so her son and Silverymoon could go on their way. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 14:05:12
Where is Laeral back from? I wasn't aware anything had happened to her. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 10:56:13
Where the Chosen are concerned, death is a revolving door. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 08:02:43
Having just picked up the 'Dragon' adventures a few days ago (and not having had the chance to read the Sundering novels at all), I will say I have no idea how they brought Laeral back. What's more, I don't actually care how they brought her back. All that matters is that she's back. I am perfectly content that it was possibly a handwave (if that is indeed the case), or if any upcoming FRCS has the details (preferable, but not wholly essential), but it's good to see that someone realized that it wasn't necessary to not have her in the Realms.
As to the Seven Sisters that died, the one that rankles me still is Qilue Veladorn, killed for no other reason than some professor at Wizbro had issues with drow and their deities. This is not speaking ill of Lisa Smedman - she had no choice, and did what she had to (authors have to eat, too, after all). But now, hopefully, that unnamed professor has gone away forever, and we will see no more pointlessly vacuous ideas like that ever again. And now, hopefully, we can correct the mistake that was the drowpocalypse, in its entirety. Having Laeral back is awesomely awesome - time for round two of the same, says I. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 01:30:51
Meh. I'm betting the Simbul will be back soon. THO pretty much said as much a while back. Dove could easily come back as well. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 00:51:43
This is not official, but speaking as the creator of the Nashers and the metaplot about the Harpers attempting to restrain Neverember's imperialistic aims (which I didn't create but definitely fleshed out for the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting), I will point out that it makes a great deal of sense that Neverember has lost hold on the two cities (Waterdeep, Neverwinter). That was one of the major potential plot objectives in the NCS, particularly if you played an Heir of Neverwinter character. This flows really well from the 4e era, and I like seeing that continuity maintained (at least in theory).
As an organization devoted to restraining tyrants and other bad people who would wield too much political power, it's absolutely within the Harper wheelhouse to resist Neverember's attempted takeover of Neverwinter whilst maintaining hold on Waterdeep. The man was trying to create his own Sword Coast empire, and it seems as though he failed somewhere along the way. Probably, he overreached and had to pick one or the other, and he ended up with Neverwinter.
The Harpers were not officially aligned with the Nashers (political dissidents who wanted to overthrow and push out Neverember, so named for their veneration of old King Nasher and their habit of "gnashing their teeth"), and at the time of the NCS, the Nashers actually had fairly good reason not to trust the Harpers (who were then involved in some pretty dodgy stuff). The Harpers were not very powerful in Neverwinter at the time, but they could certainly have amped up their efforts and membership in the city, particularly if they had a good reason to do so.
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 16:23:36
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.
So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.
Slight correction here: Khelben could get Sememmon and Fzoul to work with him, NOT the Zhents. He worked personalities and specific angles/threats/promises to get those two men to do what he needed. The fact that they commanded Zhent factions was the only way he ever influenced the Zhentarim network.
THAT was one of Khelben's best tricks (and one used by many of the Chosen, especially Elminster): Figure out which person was the best pawn to manipulate to affect the game board as you needed. 
That reminds me of the general philosophy used by one of the Lords of Waterdeep I created: a single arrow can stop an army, if you hit the right target. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 15:52:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.
So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.
Slight correction here: Khelben could get Sememmon and Fzoul to work with him, NOT the Zhents. He worked personalities and specific angles/threats/promises to get those two men to do what he needed. The fact that they commanded Zhent factions was the only way he ever influenced the Zhentarim network.
THAT was one of Khelben's best tricks (and one used by many of the Chosen, especially Elminster): Figure out which person was the best pawn to manipulate to affect the game board as you needed. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 21:17:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I get the idea that the Harper/Moonstar relationship is sort of like the (conspiracy theory) relationship between the Knights Templar, The Free Masons, and the Illuminati (especially if we lump-in The Heralds).
So there is a 'public face' where you see some of them and say, "okay, they're not so bad", and then there is the cloak & dagger stuff done by the other arms of the organization.
In other words, the schism itself is all part of some 'master plan', and the Moonstars are now more like the 'Black Ops' of the Harpers, of which even most Harpers are unaware (or like the theories about the Jesuits, if you prefer). Sorry about the RW references, but I am just using them as a comparison, not trying to validate, invalidate, or mock anything anyone supports and/or believes it.
For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.
So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course.
No need for apology. It helped convey the message.
And I do agree that The Harpers and Moonstars do appear to be very much as you postulate.
Now that I'm home, pg 117 of the Neverwinter CS states that until recently, a Harper has lead the Sons of Alagondar, a Neverwinter faction loyal to the Alagondar bloodline and opposed to Neverember's rule. So the Harpers potentially do have an interest. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:55:51
I get the idea that the Harper/Moonstar relationship is sort of like the (conspiracy theory) relationship between the Knights Templar, The Free Masons, and the Illuminati (especially if we lump-in The Heralds).
So there is a 'public face' where you see some of them and say, "okay, they're not so bad", and then there is the cloak & dagger stuff done by the other arms of the organization.
In other words, the schism itself is all part of some 'master plan', and the Moonstars are now more like the 'Black Ops' of the Harpers, of which even most Harpers are unaware (or like the theories about the Jesuits, if you prefer). Sorry about the RW references, but I am just using them as a comparison, not trying to validate, invalidate, or mock anything anyone supports and/or believes it.
For example, the Harpers could never get the Zhents to work with them... but Khelben did. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty when you are trying to fix the 'big picture'. That was Khelben's problem - he was willing to make sacrifices (himself and others) to get the job done. In other words, he wasn't above 'burning assets'. The Harpers started to drift away from their original goals (promoting freedom) and became a bit too much about 'good'.
So not so much a schism, but rather, a course correction. All IMO, of course. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've not gotten to The Herald, yet... Other than The Reaver, I've not been all that impressed with the Sundering books, and I'm also an oddball (per the standards of this site) who doesn't care for Ed's fiction all that much. He's an amazing world-builder, but his fiction usually doesn't work for me.
Understood. I've slowly grown used to him over time, but some of his novels I still find difficult. I'll post a little more here after putting in what I hope is an appropriate
SPOILER WARNING
In The Herald, it's revealed that one of the purposes of the Moonstars was to save the world from the Three Who Wait in Darkness, and it's applied to events in the novel. With the Moonstars still active according to the Herald, I am wondering if the Moonstars had any hand in getting Laeral into power Waterdeep. The Moonstars are said to have similar goals to the Harpers in the past, but tweaked to Khelben's own style, and this whole Tyranny of Dragons story is supposedly making groups that normally are adversaries work together to defeat the Cult of the Dragon.
The Harpers didn't like Neverember. Could this mean the Moonstars didn't like him, as well? If so, is the bitterness Neverember feeling toward losing his position as Open Lord of Waterdeep a surface showing of a deeper hurt? Did the Harpers or the Moonstars have a heavy hand in it and is the City of Neverwinter now going to become a bitter rival of Waterdeep?
If the Harpers or Moonstars did have a heavy hand in this transfer of power, why did they do it? Are they aiming to also aid the Nashers in Neverwinter and get rid of Neverember altogether?
Something fun to speculate on.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:55:17
I've not gotten to The Herald, yet... Other than The Reaver, I've not been all that impressed with the Sundering books, and I'm also an oddball (per the standards of this site) who doesn't care for Ed's fiction all that much. He's an amazing world-builder, but his fiction usually doesn't work for me. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:45:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Yeah, there was a decent of Lord Nasher that wanted the throne. In the Neverwinter MMO, they are a separate group called the Nashers by Lord Neverember. I just can't recall if they are allies with the Harpers or if the Harpers are officially neutral.
Did Laeral maintain dual membership with the Harpers and the Moonstars, or did she cut her Harper ties?
She cut ties with the Harpers when the Moonstars were formed. The Moonstars were pretty much ignored after 2E, though -- Rich Baker didn't like them, so they -- and the Harper Schism -- got mostly brushed aside.
Have you had a chance to read The Herald yet? It'll be interesting to see how Laeral's election plays out with relationships with Neverwinter. I'll shut up now. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:41:38
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Yeah, there was a decent of Lord Nasher that wanted the throne. In the Neverwinter MMO, they are a separate group called the Nashers by Lord Neverember. I just can't recall if they are allies with the Harpers or if the Harpers are officially neutral.
Did Laeral maintain dual membership with the Harpers and the Moonstars, or did she cut her Harper ties?
She cut ties with the Harpers when the Moonstars were formed. The Moonstars were pretty much ignored after 2E, though -- Rich Baker didn't like them, so they -- and the Harper Schism -- got mostly brushed aside. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 15:31:09
Yeah, there was a decent of Lord Nasher that wanted the throne. In the Neverwinter MMO, they are a separate group called the Nashers by Lord Neverember. I just can't recall if they are allies with the Harpers or if the Harpers are officially neutral.
Did Laeral maintain dual membership with the Harpers and the Moonstars, or did she cut her Harper ties? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 15:18:18
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
It's all good. I'm going to check out my Neverwinter Campaign Setting now (when I get home.) I seem to remember the Harpers having little love for Neverember's rule in Neverwinter. If If that's correct, then there might be a lot more to this bitterness than "I got voted out of office" boo hooing.
As I recall, there was a Neverwintan group actively opposed to his rule, and wanting Neverwinter to be ruled by someone from the city... I think they had a specific local candidate with ties to past rulership in mind, but I've only read that book once, when it first came out. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 15:10:14
It's all good. I'm going to check out my Neverwinter Campaign Setting now (when I get home.) I seem to remember the Harpers having little love for Neverember's rule in Neverwinter. If If that's correct, then there might be a lot more to this bitterness than "I got voted out of office" boo hooing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 15:05:37
My bad, I'd overlooked that. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 14:44:13
According to Tarlyn's post, he was voted out because he's trying to rule Neverwinter & Waterdeep at the same time and was unable to manage both.
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
<snip>
-Lord Dagult Neverember begins as Open Lord and is voted out due to his inability to effectively rule two cities. It is in his bio that he is bitter over being ousted.
<snip>
Laeral Silverhand - Open Lord of Waterdeep
Dagult Neverember - Lord Protector of Neverwinter
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 14:34:10
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nevermember was ousted as open lord of WAterdeep.
Good I say. Ne'er liked the man. He's a merchant first and foremost and most of the time, they make terrible leaders of anything.
His son on the otherhand shows much promise.
Under what circumstances was he ousted? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 14:01:24
Yeah, 4eFR felt a bit 'comic-booky' to me. I hope things get back to normal moving forward. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 13:42:47
She could pick up swords and daggers with her hair and use it to fight.
Maybe Storm always could control her hair to pick up stuff and I never had noticed, but when I read the novel, that skill of hers felt like it came out of nowhere. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 09:32:43
''Storm was mincing enemies left and right with her hair...''
How does that work? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 09:27:07
Then I really can't see why Ed bothered to do such a thing. From my (limited) point of view, It's not quite ''respectful'' -if you allow me this expression- towards the readers, especially the ones who really like Dove. |
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